Tavern on the Meta

Gwideon

4:10 PM

hello

o/

\o

how is everyone

awesome

that's good

4:14 PM

o/

David A

This "Why was this flag on alleged Code of Conduct violations declined?" question got a bit rowdy.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

Wow, that was an excellent brigade @Smoke

Kevin B

Don't post something you don't want people to react to. :shrug:

John Dvorak

@KevinB aren't we asking SE to do just that? :D

David A

Meta is not a competitive e-sport. There is no prize money to be won.

mag

4:19 PM

the only prize is sadness and disillusionment

Trasiva

Joke's on you mag, my life is nothing but sadness and disillusion.

Stevoisiak

6

terdon

Ah, but sadly, this is the one meta where the points do matter (as much as they do anywhere on the network).

user194636

I thought we dropped this topic

user310756

@194636 erm I'm replying to a recent comment. So how can you blame me for replying?

rene

4:23 PM

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Trasiva

That conversation is over in this room. Have a separate chat if you want it.

user310756

@rene seriously?

rene

yes, you doubt me?

user194636

never doubt flower power

user310756

it's starting to feel personal

Stevoisiak

4:24 PM

Ah dang, didn't edit in time to remove "the" from my image

rene

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Stevoisiak

Don't make me deploy the emergency puppies again

I'll do it

rene

→ 2 messages moved to Trashcan

SaitamaSama

I don't have enough puppy pics, will cute anime characters work?

Cerbrus

Stevoisiak

4:27 PM

@SaitamaSama What about cute anime puppies?

John Dvorak

I tried cute spiders once, and wasn't appreciated

Cerbrus

Lookatthat :D

user168476

@Stevoisiak It very depends on what anime the puppy comes from I think

Trasiva

user474678

Trash 6^

Stevoisiak

4:28 PM

SaitamaSama

@Trasiva bruh... T_T

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

omg is that

omg :(

@Trasiva I don't think there will ever be a time when this is not too soon

Trasiva

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Are you sure?

BelovedFool

eyeballs-pls | meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336556/…

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

Yes, I think I will always be sad about this

Raedwald

4:30 PM

You want something to be angry about? How about this: OP has an answer deleted for R/A. Copies it to the their profile. Moderator removes it from profile. OP demands to know reason and who did it. Gains 47 up votes. Plays dumb throughout.

user168476

@Trasiva hahaha my point exactly :P

Kevin B

🐶

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Ash hmmm I'm starting to think I missed the point. Isn't that about Full Metal Alchemist?

Kevin B

😎

Cerbrus

user168476

4:33 PM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier yes, and I said cute anime dogs are good dependign on where they come from, and that one is one of those "its cute unless you understand the context and then it's just sad"

Trasiva

Y'all are gonna get this room put in time out again.

Cerbrus

How many more animals do I need to pull out of a hat?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Ash very..

user168476

@Cerbrus you must have a pretty fancy hat to have so many animals in it

rene

→ 9 messages moved to Trashcan

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

4:34 PM

That soccer ball better be hard if it has to endure those paws...

Cerbrus

BelovedFool

@Cerbrus Where do you find all of those? I need a reliable source of cuteness like that

Cerbrus

Just google

SaitamaSama

Gwideon

hey um i'm a bit worried. Have I hurt anyone through my activity over the past few weeks? If i have I'm really sorry.

rene

4:36 PM

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Trasiva

You get an email or something Gwin?

Cerbrus

@SaitamaSama You've got a thing or two to learn, young padawan

user58

Okay. Cereal, Nobody - discussion over.

SaitamaSama

@Cerbrus >.<

Cerbrus

That checks the "animal" box, but I'm not sure if it qualifies as "cute"

Trasiva

4:36 PM

@user58 I'm getting an Odyssey vibe...

Gwideon

@Trasiva no I just get the feeling that I may have hurt someone.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@SaitamaSama For all the memes about geese and Canada, I have the luck of never having had to deal with one.

SaitamaSama

the goose is cute, anyone who disagrees gets the honk

user168476

@BelovedFool There's some good twitter accounts for that, the daily otter is one of my favourites: twitter.com/TheDailyOtter (If you like otters, that is)

rene

→ 3 messages moved to Trashcan

Cereal

4:38 PM

@Cerbrus You have a problem with Canada gooses, you have a problem with me. And I suggest you let that one marinate.

BelovedFool

@Ash I don't use twitter, but thanks :D

user168476

@FélixGagnon-Grenier They would nest all over campus at the university I went to - they get mean during nesting time!

Gwideon

so um yeah I guess this is an apology

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

awwww

rene

@Gwideon that is accepted.

Gwideon

4:40 PM

okay um I'm gonna go. I probably shouldn't be around here for to long

Cerbrus

@Cereal It's rather not have a goose stab me with whatever he can get it's beak on

BelovedFool

@Cerbrus This just gave me a great trolling idea Muahahah

Cerbrus

Yikes

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

a dinosaur!

BelovedFool

@FélixGagnon-Grenier It's a parrots!

Cerbrus

4:40 PM

He looks like he thinks he's very cute...

user168476

@Cereal They're just pheasants with better marketing ;)

Cerbrus

That's worth something, right?

BelovedFool

@Cerbrus You are right, I can do better:

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

er, hi

Cerbrus

That's a nope

From nopetopia

Trasiva

4:42 PM

Have you never seen an AyeAye before?

SaitamaSama

no... is that a common thing to see?

Cerbrus

Not one with quite that little hair

Trasiva

They're in Madagascar, but we learned about them in school....15 years ago

Emilie

True Facts About The Aye Aye

►

SaitamaSama

well they don't teach about those creatures here. And I'm glad they don't. They look horrifying

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

4:45 PM

tbf the gigantic ears make the first one somewhat cute

Trasiva

I'm pretty sure that first one has mange

user168476

I think they fall firmly into the "ugly cute" category for me

SaitamaSama

@FélixGagnon-Grenier weird point of view, but okay...

John Dvorak

So ayeayes are allowed in here but jumping spiders aren't, why's that? :P

SaitamaSama

spiders by definition aren't meant to be cute

BelovedFool

4:46 PM

@Emilie xD

mag

depends on the spider

you seen jumping spiders

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

in my nightmares, principally

Trasiva

peopledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/…

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

my heart

SaitamaSama

no, but I'm plenty content with the spiders I've seen irl

Trasiva

4:47 PM

When spiders have to have an HP bar, most people tend to be afraid.

2

Emilie

@Trasiva O_o

BelovedFool

@Trasiva It's nice to know I don't live in a country where those exist

Trasiva

I don't either.

It's in...surprise! Australia.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

Reasons why I live in a country where there's winter #273451

John Dvorak

Trasiva

4:49 PM

I too, live in a place that gets freezing and snow in the winter.

BelovedFool

@JohnDvorak Awww, this one is cute!

SaitamaSama

@JohnDvorak contrary to what others might say, it's not cute.

look at those hairy limbs... shudders

John Dvorak

Rabbits also have hairy limbs ... and much bigger teeth than spiders do

BelovedFool

@Trasiva Yeah, from a French point of view, Australia is full of creaturs who want to kill you!

SaitamaSama

but they aren't gonna crawl over your body without you even noticing

John Dvorak

4:51 PM

Neither do spiders

Emilie

@JohnDvorak and less eyes

Shog9

it's a fine day; spiders crawl through windows; they leave their webs; just for a short time...

John Dvorak

If abudance of eyes is what terrifies you ... I assume you don't like oysters?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

Oysters have eyes?

Shog9

mmmm.... bbq oysters

what about potatoes?

John Dvorak

4:53 PM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3buq4w/…

anywhere between 40 to 200 eyes per oyster

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

til, thx

Trasiva

@JohnDvorak Scallops have tons of eyes too.

SaitamaSama

and I'm not particularly fascinated by knowing that lol

Tinkeringbell

@Shog9 Fried ones are nice :)

Shog9

mmm... scalloped potatoes

so many eyes

Trasiva

4:54 PM

Lol

divibisan

Image of Scallop Eyes. Sorry, don't know how to embed

BelovedFool

Trasiva

@Shog9 How about potatoes fondant?

Tinkeringbell

@Shog9 tips4familydotnl.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/img_4066.jpg?w=584 ?

Shog9

I'm not wild about putting frosting on things

BelovedFool

4:55 PM

@divibisan The link needs to end by ".jpg"

Trasiva

...

user168476

@Shog9 facedesk

Shog9

> And then it was totally fun for me to begin thinking about stargazing spiders and what they would be able to see if they looked up at night. It’s a totally wonderful, fanciful thing.

Trasiva

@Shog9 I guess I kinda deserved that.

user168476

(also fondant and frosting are so not the same :P)

Shog9

4:57 PM

sweet gunk on cake

do spiders like sugar?

Trasiva

Baking fondant is very different from french cooking fondant

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

do they have the ability to like something?

user168476

@Shog9 ah, fair enough

divibisan

SaitamaSama

I love sweet shit all over my cake

divibisan

4:58 PM

@BelovedFool Thanks!

Shog9

It's going to be a fine night tonight; it's going to be a fine day tomorrow

BelovedFool

@divibisan You're welcome :)

SaitamaSama

a 50:50 ratio of frosting / cake is what I consider ideal lol, though can be a bit overwhelming some times

Cereal

Just give me the tub of frosting

John Dvorak

@SaitamaSama as in.. coprophagia? I've heard that there's an upsurge of poop-based medicine to restore the gut microflora, but I'd be afraid of consuming untreated manure.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

5:01 PM

oO

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, this is the point where everyone that wants to discuss poop moves to @Shadow's Den.

SaitamaSama

umm well, no... but now that I imagine sweet shit I kinda puked a little in my mouth

John Dvorak

#literalist

Gwideon

Is it bad to feel like I don’t belong here anymore. Sorry I should probably stop. I worry that people won’t be willing to listen to my posts and answers because of the side I took during this drama.

user168476

@Gwideon I think you need to just breathe, hun - as others have pointed out, we will tell you if something's wrong or you need to course correct behaviour. So far, that's not happened.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

5:03 PM

"feeling we don't belong here anymore" is a widely shared sentiment, if that's any comfort.

6

user168476

You're okay. You did a hard brave thing, and that's okay.

Raedwald

There so much anger around, if nobody is currently obviously angry with you, you are doing OK.

Trasiva

@Gwideon You still have rep, which means you haven't said anything too egregious.

user168476

@Trasiva That's also true, yeah

Trasiva

Look at Sara and Cesar.

If they were normal users, they'd be basically q banned into next year.

user168476

5:06 PM

I get the urge to hyper analyze every action and worry that you've offended people and all of that mess, but trust me, people are a lot more transparent here than you're giving us credit for. If there's a problem, someone will make sure you know, so you can either correct it, or work with them, or whatever.

user168476

You're okay. You're just working off a lot of fear and emotional energy, and you're worried, that's totally understandable, but you don't have to keep thinking you need to run away. You're good.

Tinkeringbell

^ Now if you want sweet, there's your frosting :D

Gwideon

Okay. Um it’s just hard to completely understand where I stand among all of this. I don’t want to be the annoying user who everyone hates. It feels like I am sometimes.

Cerbrus

@Gwideon: annoying? hardly

I don't agree with everything you write, but that's basically life.

Gwideon

Okay. Um also um while I don’t agree with you all the time I’m glad we can respect each other enough to have a civil conversation.

Trasiva

5:16 PM

@Gwideon If you're getting that stressed out I'm gonna tell you the same thing I told Yvette. Take a break, go take a walk, decompress. Come back if and when you're feeling better. This place isn't worth the mental stress y'all are putting on yourselves.

BelovedFool

@Gwideon It feels like you need some cats (I do hope you like cat?)

Cereal

Also most people don't care, like at all. Like the name behind the post doesn't register at all

Tinkeringbell

@Trasiva Except that if we keep telling the people that are hurt the most by all this, this... we're left with no hurting people and no problem to fix and that feels like sweeping them under the rug instead of trying to work with them to me.

Reinstate Monica

I can almost never remember who a poster is from question to question.

Cerbrus

@Tinkeringbell I get what you're saying, but we can't please everyone.

Cereal

5:18 PM

@Tinkeringbell :thinking: i.stack.imgur.com/VLqFB.jpg

Cerbrus

Striving to keep everyone happy will make people unhappy. It's not possible.

Gwideon

@BelovedFool thanks for the cat.

Trasiva

@Tinkeringbell Nothing I said was suggesting we sweep them under the rug though. It was simply to take a break and come back once they decompress and get their heads in the right place.

If you're that stressed out that you're starting to get anxious or paranoid, it's time to step back.

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Did I say we should? But if we're dismissing them out of hand, telling them not to participate in times when they're the people that we're talking about... That's not sitting right with me.

@Trasiva Decompressing can be done here, in chat.

divibisan

@Trasiva No, and it's good advice in general. But if everyone took it, then we'd have a problem

BelovedFool

5:20 PM

@Gwideon Also, from the things I have seen you write, I was always glad you write them. So thank you for that <3

Cerbrus

@Tinkeringbell We're not telling them to immediately leave...

Tinkeringbell

It requires people to be willing to just sit and listen for a while though...

Cerbrus

But there comes a point when taking a step back to not let yourself get too involved becomes the only option.

Trasiva

^

Gwid's doubting all of their actions here at this point.

Taking an hour or two away from the computer to go read a book, take a shower, or even just go for a walk could be good for them.

Tinkeringbell

@Trasiva So what do you think helps more... the kind words some people have been offering? Or the suggestion to go decompress somewhere else? (I'm not saying anyone said to leave immediately... but it certainly didn't sound like 'we're willing to sit and listen for a while first').

Cerbrus

5:22 PM

Sometimes you just need to get it out of your head and focus in things that actually matter... Like death by puppies:

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Looks pretty alive still to me :)

Cerbrus

Won't be for long... Those beasts are vicious!

One of their great great grandfathers was a certain bunny

Trasiva

@Tinkeringbell I certainly never meant it to be "Go away". I simply was recommending that at some point when they didn't wish to be conversing, to just walk away from everything going on here and focus on numero uno for a while.

user194636

One can hardly say anything now without being told one should have said something else.

Cerbrus

@194636 No... Oh.

Tinkeringbell

5:25 PM

@194636 I've never seen a room of such non-IPS-y people before.

user194636

There ya go. Fell right into my trap.

Cerbrus

non-IPS-y ?

user384163

@Gwideon I for one am willing to listen to you. If you need an ear. Or if you want to decompress elsewhere that is fine too. And if you want someone to join you there I'd be happy to chat about cats or food or something innocuous for some time.

Gwideon

I honestly think the only way to solve the drama is for everyone to show some empathy.

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Y'all don't have manners. XD

Cerbrus

5:27 PM

@Tinkeringbell I respectfully disagree

Gwideon

@AGirlHasNoName thanks but um I think i’ll be okay

Tinkeringbell

You're all saying things in ways that makes me go 'wow... why'd you say that like THAT!'

I dunno. Might be that I've been overtrained at this part.

user384163

@Gwideon It's an open invitation. Ping me anytime. Here or in one of the other rooms I am in.

user194636

Possible

Cerbrus

Then, respectfully, maybe you're reading too much into how we say things

Trasiva

5:28 PM

@Tinkeringbell Excuse me, I have manners. I always say 'complements to the chef' after loudly belching.

Gwideon

Okay

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Perhaps. But perhaps I'm also seeing that how people are saying things is severely breaking a site I'm trying to moderate a little. I've had these discussions with a much smaller userbase before. How you give your feedback matters.

2

user384163

@Trasiva I for one always appreciate a complimentary belch

John Dvorak

OK... this is awesome: etsy.com/hk-en/listing/610686578/…

Cerbrus

@Tinkeringbell Are you talking meta in general now, or this room?

mag

5:30 PM

One thing i've had to grapple with over the years and in general is that language is powerful

really powerful. What you say and how you say it has a lot more power then you think it does

Cerbrus

Maybe I'm too laid back then.

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus This room, but with much less people in it :) Also tried it a bit on a few meta posts... Language is important. If you give your feedback, or talk about stuff certain ways, and get it slightly wrong... Ever heard of a 'backfire effect'?

Trasiva

@AGirlHasNoName For all the people I've cooked for over the years, I've never taken it as a sign of disrespect after a meal. I do find it disrespectful when they expect me to do the dishes by myself after though.

mag

and the actual content of the message is about half of what its effects will be

the delivery is just as, if not more important

this isn't true if you're talking to a compiler or robot

Cerbrus

It's true that I don't take too much care in how I say things, but I mean what I say.

mag

5:32 PM

a compiler has no concept of tone and intent, it executes flatly. A human has all these things and when trying to convey a point that you convey it in a way that is respectful and unalienating is almost more important to achieve understanding then the content itself is

Cerbrus

Well, except the "death by puppies thing"... That guy probably survived.

Is it weird that I find comparing human interactions with compilers slightly offending?

mag

I mean, it's reductive

I have the same problem the first thing that forms in my head when I read something is always a response devoid of any social intelligence, because I have no intuition in that sense and I used to view every conversation as a pure exchange of content

Cerbrus

We're not a bunch of robots. We're smarter than that. I'd turn the analogy around: Humans are capable of reading what you're trying to say without you literally saying it.

mag

turns out though, tone and style are not negligible and play as much a role as substance does, and if you view conversation and interaction from an utilitarian perspective (e.g maximising happiness and understanding), that becomes a focal point

Cerbrus

The words themselves are a means to an end. The message is in there, but don't take everything literally.

mag

5:34 PM

right, but that's where the gray area comes in

the frame is even more important then

Cerbrus

Or maybe the right mindset

mag

if my presupposition because of your tone and style is that you don't care about me and don't care what I think that becomes my lens through which I view all your content

unless I consciously break that default

Cerbrus

You can get huffed up about how someone wrote something, or you can assume good intentions and ask for clarification.

mag

you know how hard that is in the heat of the moment

Cerbrus

Don't get offended, because that limits your capability to communicate.

Yes, it's hard

mag

5:36 PM

you had heated discussions with people before where most of the time either participant doing what you just said could have defused the situation instantly

Cereal

I took a critical thinking course in university, which was actually a course on arguments. One of the lectures was always give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. Whenever they make an argument, assume they're trying to support their argument.

It has a name, I'll see if I can find it

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus That's... actually if you're the one sending a message, you're the only one that can take responsibility for how it'll be received. It's up to you to gauge the mindset of the other. Which is stupidly hard on both sides, because the other has to send you their mindset in a way that you can receive it correctly. We can assume good intentions, sure... But if you're not sending a vibe of good intentions, another person isn't going to receive you as having good intentions.

Cerbrus

@Cereal that

mag

just because it's possible not to fall into the trap doesn't mean we shouldn't optimize our approach to not setting traps

Cerbrus

@Tinkeringbell Yes, but there's a point where people are going to have to be more receptive of disagreement.

mag

5:37 PM

the key question is what exactly are you optimizing for when talking to someone

Cerbrus

In these discussions on SE people have been defaulting to "He probably meant to insult me"

Cereal

Might be the principle of charity. Maybe I still have the textbook

Tinkeringbell

In other words... communication is circular and stupidly hard and misunderstandings are bound to happen but saying 'I'm only disagreeing' when you're not looking like it... that's why it's so important to get your feedback right...

mag

you can't control how people react to your tone, you can only control your tone

Cerbrus

There's only so much you can do about your tone...

mag

5:38 PM

personally learning proper tone has been night and day for me

Cerbrus

And that comes back to the impossibility to please everyone

mag

who knows interaction could be so much easier :p

Cereal

@Cerbrus especially since you can't convey tone through text

Cerbrus

@Cereal oh god this

Cereal

I do still have the textbook!

De Novo

5:39 PM

@Cerbrus THE LIMITS OF CONVEYING TONE using text only

Cerbrus

About tone: For me as a Dutch guy, I get put off when someone is being exceedingly nice to me. It's almost insulting. Just get to the point, don't beat around the bush.

mag

in essence though, if your goal is getting X across, then how you frame it is going to impact a large part of how well it comes across

and when cultural differences come into it it's a quagmire

I always have to fight rising annoyance when someone puts on clearly fake friendliness because it's almost belittling in how transparent it is

yet in some circles that is the social norm

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Hah, yeah, I get that too. But this whole thing is not about pleasing everyone. It's about being a bit more empathetic, sympathetic... And you've probably been told before to not be too Dutch on here. Have a stroopwafel instead.

Cerbrus

@Tinkeringbell All the damn time

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Keep the waffel then.

mag

5:41 PM

walmart tried to settle in germany and failed in large part due to this

cashiers being friendly is unnatural and suspicious in germany

Cerbrus

But that's the thing. The cultural difference is humongous, but we're being judged by American standards here...

De Novo

@mag see also smiling in Russia

djsmiley2k - CoW

I imagine everything is shouted in german

Cerbrus

@djsmiley2k-CoW NEIN

mag

it's not, but interactions are quite curt

djsmiley2k - CoW

5:42 PM

HAVE A NICE DAY SIR!

mag

by other culture's standards

Cerbrus

(That's polite disagreement in german)

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Are we? Would you say I'm acting like an American on here so far?

mag

for instance, when I bought groceries yesterday I exchanged 2 words with the cashier

djsmiley2k - CoW

@mag omg i wanna be german :D

Cereal

5:43 PM

found it

Cerbrus

From my perspective, I see american communication skills at play, yes, @Tinkeringbell.

De Novo

@mag but which 2?

mag

part of fitting into a diverse community is mellowing and softening your own cultural expectations

Cerbrus

You mention you've had training in that regard?

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Hmm. Ask an American too :P They'll probably still tell you I'm Dutch.

Cerbrus

5:43 PM

Probably

That'll make you something in between

mag

@DeNovo "Karte" when asked how to pay and "have a nice day" at the end

Tinkeringbell

(I still regularly get told 'no Tink, you can't say this like that' or 'you can't say this at all').

mag

@Tinkeringbell personally you're hard to predict

Cereal

> The Principle of charity

> Often we are confronted by a choice between two or more interpretations of what someone has said, and sometimest these interpretations have different degrees of plausibility. If we adopt the least plausible interpretation, it is often easy to show that the statement is false. On the other hand, if we adopt the most plausible interpretation, it is usually more difficult to show that the statement is false. It is temping, therefor, when faced with a statement we disagree with, to adopt the least plausible interpretation of it. After all, if we can get away with f…

2

mag

most people are fairly predictable in how they communicate in any given situation (myself included)

Cereal

5:45 PM

There's a bunch of examples following too

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus I like in between. I haven't lost the direct, Dutch, blunt, no-nonsense part of me. Yet I have learned to be that way in a way that makes me also capable of communicating with an international group of people... I like that.

@mag See, I kinda like that too. Keeps people sharp ;)

Cereal

This is "Critical Thinking: An introduction to the basic skills concise edition" by William Hughes, and Jonathan Lavery. I'd recommend it

djsmiley2k - CoW

hah. I'm so aspie

mag

@Tinkeringbell That probably means you're saying a lot less then you think, no?

djsmiley2k - CoW

i can do the social thing, i just detest it

Tinkeringbell

5:46 PM

@mag Indeed. I can type 10k words in chat and it probably means I've had 100k run through my head.

mag

Unless when I get on a roll like this most of my inner monologue stays inner too

Cerbrus

Meanwhile I have to GTFO to the stables :P

Interesting read though, @Cereal. Me likes.

Tinkeringbell

@Cerbrus Say hi to whatever animals you're going to encounter :)

djsmiley2k - CoW

I don't mind people being overly descriptive in text

mag

@Cereal is that also known as steelmanning an argument?

djsmiley2k - CoW

5:47 PM

because i can process that at like 10x the speed i process someone speaking

it's the same with meetings at work :Z

Tinkeringbell

@Cereal I like it, but I also feel it may not be entirely related to the subject of 'interpreting the tone/intentions of what someone said'. It seems much more related to interpreting what is said than how it is said.

Gwideon

There’s something I’m gonna start advocating. for. I honestly just feel if people took time to see where the other side was coming from they’d get an understanding and it would help thinks cool down a little. It maybe a bit naive but I think it’s probably the best way to deal with this.

7

terdon

It's the only way.

Cereal

@Tinkeringbell Given you can't convey tone through text, there's probably a fairly strong argument that what and how are the same in that context

Kevin B

I wish people would stop assuming we don't already understand where the other side is coming from.

Cereal

5:50 PM

But it's a moot point. Everyone on the internet already thinks you're wrong

mag

one thing that is blatantly true is that you will never argue someone out of a deeply held belief

the best you can do is sow some doubt

terdon

@Cereal The problem is that you absolutely can convey tone through text. It's just much easier to get it wrong so that the tone you meant to convey isn't the tone that's received by the person who reads it.

djsmiley2k - CoW

the world appears to have forgotten, how to agree to disagree

De Novo

@mag much of what we're dealing with is not, in fact, deeply held beliefs

Cereal

@terdon If tone is up to interpretation, then you're not conveying tone. No?

mag

5:52 PM

this applies in principle to anything

djsmiley2k - CoW

Nothing wrong with not agreeing with someone else.

mag

if you're arguing in an adversarial sense no convincing can happen

De Novo

@mag as evidenced by changing attitudes on a population level on a decade time school.

terdon

@KevinB You just did :) You assumed that was a dig against your "side" (I have no idea what side that is), when it was just saying that we should all (so, all sides) strive to see where the other is coming from.

Tinkeringbell

@Cereal Not really... It's the difference between putting words in someone's mouth (Like politicians might twist their opponents arguments) or letting someone know you got the essentials of their message, but ask them to be a bit nicer on the delivery (by saying 'I understand you, but there's no need to call X a -insert slur-')

Kevin B

5:53 PM

whoa now

terdon

@Cereal You're conveying a tone, that's kind of the problem. It's easy to get it wrong.

Kevin B

don't assume what i assume

De Novo

@mag yes, and if you work to understand what the actual underlying belief is, then you can find common ground

Gwideon

Um this isn’t coming across well. I’m not wanting to argue someone out of their beliefs. I just want people to display some empathy so people can come to some form of mutual agreement easier.

mag

I don't mean you @gwi

this is just generalized musing

in relation to the intent conversation above

Gwideon

5:53 PM

Oh okay

But um yeah there’s my two cents

terdon

See? I just failed right now. I wrote to @KevinB what I thought was a very friendly nudge, but I see from their reaction that they received it as being more aggressive than I intended. Sorry, @KevinB.

De Novo

@mag a lot of this is a form of tribalism

Kevin B

i'm being facetious ofc

Tinkeringbell

theoatmeal.com/comics/believe seems relevant.

3

mag

a lot of this comes down to face

terdon

5:54 PM

@KevinB Ah, so we both failed! :)

djsmiley2k - CoW

and how do i go about 'seeing something from the other side' if i know their wrong?

mag

you can't lose face in public but you can come back later with a changed opinion

djsmiley2k - CoW

i.e. flat earthers?

Cereal

Can I just use an example?

"This question is a duplicate of <some_url>. Please search your question before making a new one"

This is objectively a tone deaf message. It could be a canned response. But if a user came onto the site with the preconceived notion they were going to be attacked, they could *absolutely* interpret the tone of that message as hostile, because that's what they were *expecting* the tone to be.

djsmiley2k - CoW

so they forgot to presume good intent.

how do you make it less harsh, without talking down to them, belittling them, or making it just feel generic?

Cereal

5:56 PM

Right, this is a response to tinkerbell and terdon arguing that the principle of charity doesn't always apply given the tone of a message

Gwideon

@djsmiley2k-CoW I’m thinking in this context. Also you’d probably want to understand why they hold this belief.

djsmiley2k - CoW

because the internet is 'evil' or so the media tells us.

Kevin B

What's bothering me is this notion that people seem to know why we have a problem with something, but purposely dismiss it as radical, extreme, alt right, off limits, etc. it's simply never going to go over well, regardless of how well meaning they might be. It's the "Resistance is Futile" route. No room for discussion, no room for compromise, it's my way or the highway.

it's purposely divisive

djsmiley2k - CoW

hmmmmm

Kevin B

while being painted as "welcoming"

lol

djsmiley2k - CoW

5:59 PM

'inclusive'

:D

Tinkeringbell

Eh, that's yet another example of a message that can be posted with good intents, and seen as hostile.. but my argument has been we should improve those messages... I don't think I've been denying that there's such messages around.

We should strive to write messages in such a way that even someone that comes in on the site with a notion that their question is likely going to be closed because the site is hostile, can't argue that we weren't nice when closing their question. < That's something SE gets to do, I don't have the brains for that.

Unihedron

@KevinB There is no use trying to reason with someone who makes it their job to misunderstand you. Your content should stand on its own and reviewed as its own and if it is neutral enough you should just let it be. The CoC instructs you to "walk away" when you don't feel like discussing it, because you really should pick your fights.

djsmiley2k - CoW

reminds me of uni, and the lecture we had wasted by IBM, who came to tell us about this amazing oppotunity, which we all Couldn't take up becAuse We weren't black males of 20-25.

De Novo

@Tinkeringbell that's a great comic :)

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