Tavern on the Meta - 2019-10-24 (page 2 of 8)

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Félix Gagnon-Grenier

4:00 AM

:P

@Nobody Not gonna go into that further.

user310756

I knew that answer wouldn't go down well, but I didn't expect such a sh!tstorm or I wouldn't have posted it. for crying out loud. People are carrying on about censorship and these are the people who are actually the worst about it

user310756

@Shog9 sure

Yeah... Which is why I just delete things usually.

Oh well.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I really like the ping noise here

user310756

4:00 AM

@Shog9 well I now have a rude flag against me

user310756

I can't fight that tide Shog

user310756

no one can disagree with the popular opinion

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

tide pods

tide shogs

really rolls on the tongue

user310756

it's actually a dictatorship (by a group) not even the CMs have a proper voice

...I miss Pops :(

user310756

4:01 AM

me too

user310756

and Jaydles

I liked disagreeing with ol' Lord Torgamus

user310756

who is that.. let me look

He had this great ability to be right in a way that made it delightful to be wrong

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

hahaha

that sounds amazing.

user310756

4:03 AM

would it make your life easier if I left the site Shog?

No

Would it make your life easier?

user310756

It would be unresolved and I'd forever hate the site

You're not even in the top 20 people making my life harder right now

but... I can't speak for you

Make a list of people who are making your life harder. If your name isn't on the first page, you're winning.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Shog9 fair question: are you in the top 20 people making your life harder? :P

user310756

I'm trying to present an alternate view point, but I'm treated like an arch villian. I really need a mask and moustache and a long cigarette holder

4:04 AM

@Nobody fwiw I think what triggered me and others to flag it was the way in which it was phrased. In future, I think it's a good idea to proofread, possibly in a closed chat room with a few others to get feedback before going live.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

damn. if I were only a second quicker

...now I really want a long cigarette holder

that'd be cool

user310756

@JJJ to be honest, it was never going to be well received.

I could hold it, to the side, all laconically

user310756

And people are misunderstanding what I'm saying about true bigotry

4:05 AM

lip curled just slightly, one eyebrow raised... The picture of snark

user310756

I'm not saying the regulars are bigots (some may be) but it's making room for bigotry and bad people to insert themselves into the site. It's quite sinister

No, I think they understood

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody how you present the viewpoint is just as important as the fact that that viewpoint is there

3

And your end goal.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody If I just may add something here... It's possibly just how I interpret it, but when you say that, and when you speak about how your posts are received, and sometimes in your answers, I feel like you're saying it's actually our fault, for not understanding?

user310756

@Shog9 and a hat slanted across your head - casting a shadow across your face

4:06 AM

yeaaahhhh

That's the problem we face right now: it's easy to make things worse. Without trying, while trying to make them better... It's easy. Making things better is hard and error-prone.

Lotta folks not doing the hard things, lotta folks making errors. Myself included.

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier yes and no. I clearly cannot jibe with mse. I am clearly voicing things people do not want to hear. and I do think I'm misinterpreted, as people assume bad intent

Journeyman Geek

If everyone - well reasonably speaking, got along and Monica's image was rehabilitated and we actually got the parties involved talking, we are in a much better position

3

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

!!urban jibe

damnit Tavern, where's your bot?

Let's just flag the actual bigots (and tar and feather them) if they come around.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek but that's one opinion. That's my point. It's gone way beyond that.

4:08 AM

Keith Lionel Urban (born 26 October 1967) is a New Zealand-Australian singer, songwriter and record producer well known for his work in country music. In 1991, he released a self-titled debut album and charted four singles in Australia before moving to the United States the following year. He found work as a session guitarist before starting a band known as The Ranch, which recorded one studio album on Capitol Nashville and charted two singles on the US Billboard Hot Country Songs chart. Still signed to Capitol, Urban made his solo American debut in 1999 with a second eponymous album. Certified...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

lawl

Journeyman Geek

The new faq works better cause folks built it

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

In general, whenever I feel like I'm about to lash in anger, I quickly fire up Doom and direct my anger at the zombies.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

^

user310756

Even if the site gave Monica a golden statue a million bucks and moderation over the network - people will not be happy

4:08 AM

@Nobody yes, but that, I would say constructively, isn't about the question at hand. When writing an argument, try to start on paper, a few key points on what you want to say, try so that all are relevant to the question, then try to connect them and add only a little padding. That way it's to the point and you're less likely to write from an emotional point.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody Does it have to stay there though?

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog - Heroes of the Storm, killing noobs, much more statisfying.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody small wins.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek I don't have the answers

Journeyman Geek

No one does

4:09 AM

large loses. Medium ties.

@JourneymanGeek This. This so, so much.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@JourneymanGeek yeah the small ones always win

user310756

I honestly cannot see a resolutioin. The network may have to rethink how it works. perhaps shut down meta

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

le anarchy

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody Some people would want that.

Smells like defeatism

user310756

4:10 AM

currently it's a disgrace and an embarrassment

meta is a concept, like war or love. It exists apart from the representation. It has always existed; it will always exist.

user310756

I'm ashamed of the site tbh

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 actually...

user310756

yeh.. it exists as a concrete object atm - a site

@Shog9 pretty sure the Greeks came up with it

user310756

4:11 AM

an abstract parent class - instantiated

We can shut down the site. Delete all the content. Meta will still exist. It will find a new host.

user206222

@Shog9 That... depends on how it's done. (I don't mean this facetiously.)

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody I'm unhappy with how it is now. I'm disappointed it got as bad at it is. But yanno? Sometimes you gotta fight for, not against the place you wantm

Burning down meta fixes nothing

user310756

no - the fight is poisonous

is this chatroom meta-meta? and discord meta-meta-meta?

user310756

4:12 AM

it is destroying the community and the very place people are supposed to be defending

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

imo it's not the fight that's poisonous

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody actually no

A lack of trust is

user310756

the amount of vitriol.

@david - I want to know what the meta to the meta to the meta of the meta which is discord (perhaps Yahoo Answers?)

user310756

it's like people have tried to abandon all the rules

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

4:13 AM

or rather, the fight is only an exterioration of the discrepencies in how we feel

user310756

and the majority has the power and the voice

Journeyman Geek

And also that there are good folks working together to try to make things better

lol, right like Yahoo answers was ever relevant.

user310756

the fight is disproportionate to the cause

That could be an interesting gauge of how inclusive a community is. How many meta-levels deep do people need to go before they feel they can safely talk about things that matter to them

user310756

4:14 AM

it started over one person and it's ended over a code of conduct. Honestly the behaviour is reprehensible

Journeyman Geek

Gareth wrote a hell of a faq. Art and Emile pulled together a good number of mods

user310756

that so much disruption can be caused because of a fight over one person. And yet other - just as good people - are being trampled under foot

user206222

Hard to deny Stack's self-conversation is turning rancid in the winter sun. MSE is in the middle of a radicalization process. There are a lot of people -- really, sincerely good people, trying to stop that. But no community effort really has the right tools, or the right framework, to do so in a systematic way.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody it's not just about one person though

user310756

@Aza ^^ that is what I was trying to say - I think you saw my intent?

user206222

4:15 AM

People on MSE don't like to think about capital-S Systems. We like to think about people, individuals who contribute; and the system is just a sum of the individual parts.

Journeyman Geek

A lot of it is about how things were done

I think you're being a little bit overdramatic Nobody. Most people seem happy with how the CoC has turned out (clarified by the second FAQ) and the new moderator flowchart things are a good step forward.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek half of it is about one person - the rest is about the coc

People who like to think about systems tend to like to mess with those systems.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Aza Indeed, SE management took a quite radical jab at the site.

user206222

4:16 AM

The typical thought pattern is: If something's broken, it's because someone specific is making it broken. That person can be guided, brought along, helped... and somewhere in the middle, the necessary changes to the system and pattern of thinking? Are lost entirely.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody Imagine if folks did it the way the last COC was

user310756

@david cough

user310756

@Shog9 that's kinda dismissive

maybe

user310756

:)

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

4:17 AM

@Nobody "a fight over one person"

Journeyman Geek

@Aza I can deal with a person. I'm not in a position to change systems. I can try to help when we are in the want of a nail

There are... I guess a sort of systems anthropologist

but not enough of them

Journeyman Geek

And literally most of this is about individuals

also, no one listens to them

user310756

You know I actually love you and the others on the team @Shog9 I know how much you care. In some ways I try to make things better for you all. In some places it does help a bit I think

4:17 AM

@Aza There seems to be a lack of vision. Someone to take the lead setting out a goal would go a long way I think

I know

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I'll try to phrase it in a less provocative way, because there is something important, I think, in what it is I'm trying to say, and that's that "radicalization", in the way and intent we see on the site, happens from many layers of users.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Less true than you'd think. For example: Most people don't know Monica. Most people don't really care about Monica As A Person. They care a lot about... Monica As An Idea. As a representative for what's happening to Stack Exchange.

2

user310756

@JourneymanGeek it's actually dealing with group psychology

For me personally, it's entirely about the person, actually, it's about any user for me. But that's beside the point.

user310756

4:18 AM

how people behave in a group is different to individual psyche

user206222

She's not as important as what she means, and that's not a personal level. That's a system of thought.

@Aza now that's a vision, a bit vague, but still a vision

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I seems that folks from all horizons, are prone to want to abuse power when they see / have it, not the least of them possibly being people that now are managing a gigantic site.

unfortunately, this is the problem with turning a person into a symbol: symbols are even harder to control than people. You think you've made your job easier, but... Nooooo.

4

Journeyman Geek

@Aza And yet she got turned into a symbol because someone ended up trying to make an example of her

user310756

4:20 AM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I've never abused my power as a mod. Shog can testify to that. I handled a hella lot of flags and did my best to be fair. I was not perfect, and never will be

Journeyman Geek

So. I know Monica. I don't think I want to deal with her as a symbol

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody I was so not talking about you <3

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Unfortunately, you no longer really have that choice in public. When you talk about her in public, you're talking about Monica the Symbol, because that's what most readers are going to know.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I'm talking about us. us humans. we act like humans. and great care should be given to remembering that we are, and are prone to liking power.

Journeyman Geek

You don't get to tell me that

user310756

4:21 AM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier oh - and it was how I interpreted some of your comments under my deleted post

user206222

It is unfortunate, no one deserves to be made into a symbol. But... it's a reality we've gotta grapple with.

user310756

you know what really tics me off. This is the God's honest truth now

user206222

I mean, I can't tell you how to think, or how to feel. But most readers? Yyyeah, they don't know her.

user310756

this will go viral on meta now :D

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody some of them were about you, you got that right. But it stems from the fact of a larger perspective.

Journeyman Geek

4:21 AM

Honestly if I really have to process this on my own terms to be any good

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody Rather, an example of how easy to forget we are also capable of becoming always more radical in how we act was somewhat there, I talked about it as it manifested, but the thing goes deeper than any one individual.

user206222

When I say "you no longer have that choice," what I mean is: you can do your damnedest to talk about Monica the Person in public, but it's extremely difficult for that to be heard. Talking about her in that way is absolutely an option. But... the meaning is going to be lost, or worse, subverted, for most people who don't know her.

@Shog9 it's not even clear to me who you are talking about making the person into a symbol... SE or users with axes to grind ;-)

Does it matter?

Journeyman Geek

@Aza but I can't work like that.

user206222

4:23 AM

There are... some tricks you can pull, as a writer, to try to make that happen. But often, they just end up converting your and Monica's relationship into a part of the symbol, rather than humanizing both of you.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek I... agree. I empathize with that problem, in a profoundly personal way. The effect can't be ignored, but it can be extremely painful to grapple with.

@Shog9 no. but I noticed the ambiguousness of that statement as I think it is applicable on both sides, actually

Journeyman Geek

@enderland Well it totally fits both sides

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Same here. So take a ping

user310756

The thing is. Monica is being so supported and no one is saying one bad thing about her or allowed to criticise her (me expected ofc). It's like she's faultless.
Me, I get hounded and criticised up hill and down dale.
I mention how many flags I've handled as people don't realise how hard I've worked for the site. 75,000+ flags.
I have mental health issues and reveal that and people kinda use it against me.
I freely admit my faults, but it doesn't make it ok for people to hound or target me. And that has happened by a handful of people.

Journeyman Geek

4:24 AM

@Aza so I don't work on the public. I try to reach out to folks. Take little steps

user310756

^^ that's the truth. It really fKing hurts

Journeyman Geek

Then see where we end up

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@NogShine :)

user206222

9 mins ago, by Aza

The typical thought pattern is: If something's broken, it's because someone specific is making it broken. That person can be guided, brought along, helped... and somewhere in the middle, the necessary changes to the system and pattern of thinking? Are lost entirely.

user206222

I think what we build, when you talk with individual people, is... coalition, not change directly.

Journeyman Geek

4:26 AM

Systems have inertia. There's process and meetings and...

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier the thing about you and I. We have had our fair share of run ins - even in the election chat room. But we make up quickly :) It's ok to disagree. It's even ok to lose our cool from time to time. It's how we handle that conflict that matters. The end result of the relationship. Does that make sense?

user206222

Coalition can align people together and help each other learn how to change a system. But if we never get around to actually changing that system... it won't, no matter how strong the coalition is.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza And hopefully perspectives you miss

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Yes, this too. Diversity of thought is important within the framework of change.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza meh. You work on that. I'm not very good at changing the world

4:27 AM

@Nobody you've been a symbol too. Of different things. Wasn't easy to deal with either, was it...

user206222

@JourneymanGeek You're better at it than you think.

Journeyman Geek

I chew on grass. Trees are a little big for me

Willow bark is bitter and good

user310756

@Shog9 well I have willingly chosen to stand up and take the heat. As someone has to in a way - if that makes sense. Be the voice that no one wants to hear. Do I sound crazy?

user384163

@JourneymanGeek I agree with Aza. You have been the greatest voice of reason in all of this.

4:28 AM

Not at the moment

@Nobody Why do you feel the need to criticise her? What does that gain? Does hurting her feelings help the situation in any way?

user310756

I mean - it makes sense I support the CoC I was trying to bring about change years ago on MSO

Journeyman Geek

@Aza At best, I guess I succeeded in slowing things down from getting worse. Other people did the hard work

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Impostor syndrome.

user384163

@JourneymanGeek Don't sell yourself short

user206222

4:29 AM

Trees and grass are a part of the same ecosystem. Those small steps matter a lot.

I think that's what upsets people, they don't understand why she is being attacked, and when you post things like that you get lumped in with the network and inherit their hatred

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

wow, I wish that didn't hit so close

Are you trying to lessen the vitriol directed at SE by taking some of it on yourself?

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName I'm not.

user310756

@david the only real criticism is her lack of not reviewing that she may have done something wrong. It is brushed over as no problem. Like it was totally undeserved. Yet I am crucified on the site regularly and people are ok with people saying far worse things to me than I've ever said to Monica. People think I was being mean, but read into what I was posting things I didn't say or even intend or implied.

4:30 AM

It is also considerably easier to empathize with a user as a real person when their username/avatar are of their real humanness

user310756

@david Yes.

Journeyman Geek

@enderland Woof

user310756

@david In a nutshell yes. More so the community team.

user310756

But also the changes to the CoC.

@Nobody that seems like a very unhealthy thing to do

user384163

4:31 AM

@david Her blamelessness makes this situation one-sided. If both sides come to the table knowing that the relationship needs rebuilt then talks can happen. If she is but a victim then it is so much harder to mend the bridge

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName Well that's an aspect to work on.

user384163

But I don't know how to work on it.

user310756

@david Not really. Because blind hatred for the "powers that be" on the very same network that people are trying to fight for is a stale mate. I believe in the CoC. If people hate me and focus on that, maybe they will think hey the team's not so bad. Maybe the Coc is not so bad

It's entirely possible that we (users of the SE platform) cannot meaningfully work on it

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@AGirlHasNoName It feels like this is going in circles. To not be blameless, we'd need to know in no uncertain terms, what happened exactly.

Journeyman Geek

4:32 AM

@AGirlHasNoName As I see it - her specific issues are as much with specific people and specific points of view

user310756

I'm not intending to be bad. I'm being outspoken and saying things the network is not saying

Journeyman Geek

That... Can be worked on

user384163

As Aza said she is a symbol now. She can't be tainted. And she is aggrieved.

user310756

yes - that is very unhealthy

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody The "white armor knight" was possibly a bit too much, but how do you safeguard against not going too far in the "voice for the voiceless" endeavour?

user310756

4:33 AM

and I have become the symbol of the anti-monica

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier asking those people

@Nobody it's not a stalemate. The updated FAQ is a perfect example of how the community and the "powers that be" can work together. It's not smooth, and it's not pretty at times, but it did result in something that's workable for the majority

user384163

@Nobody you have...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

sometimes these people disagree with what you say

user310756

there was one person I was speaking up for and they don't want to discuss it any further. So I feel stupid now.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

4:34 AM

and sometimes, other ones of those people, we also ask about things, and we have different visions

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier ofc.

user384163

@Nobody Don't feel stupid

user310756

@AGirlHasNoName I stand by what I have said.

user310756

I believe every word of that post.

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName And there's two ways to handle a symbol

4:34 AM

@Nobody I don't know if it makes you feel better, but this isn't true - I've followed this whole thing closely as Monica is a good friend of mine, and have no idea who is the "symbol of the anti-monica" if that even exists somewhere

user384163

@JourneymanGeek I don't know that I like either one.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody Sometimes, it seems that you hide behind "I'm saying things people do not dare" to wave away criticism, is what I am trying to be unclear about.

Journeyman Geek

You break it down or you take away what she symbolises

user310756

@enderland it's tongue in cheek. Like Saint Monica - Monica becoming a symbol (as discussed in here) and this is all theoretical discussion. I am not the devil so to speak. The bad one.

Journeyman Geek

If that's hurt then it's simple yet difficult

user384163

4:35 AM

@JourneymanGeek What does she symbolize?

@Nobody "and I have become the symbol of the anti-monica" isn't that exactly what you wanted? to take that mantle away from SE?

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I now some people agree with me, but won't say anything

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName To most folks? I think they remember the manner she was demodded and the whole press thing

user310756

@david to a point yes. So that people can move on with moving forward

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody And some people disagree, and won't say anything, how do we progress from that?

Journeyman Geek

4:36 AM

I think to a few she apparently symbolises hurt

@AGirlHasNoName imo, to a lot of veteran SE users, the way this whole thing went down epitomizes the disrespect and devaluing of actual contributors that SE the company has done in the last years

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier all I'm asking - is cannot people perhaps consider that there's value in what I'm saying

Journeyman Geek

The former is out of my hands

Let's see about the latter

user206222

I think Monica the Symbol is a lot more vague and personal. To those people, she symbolizes why Stack Exchange hurts us.

user384163

@JourneymanGeek That is a catalyst. What does she symbolize? Resentment towards lack of transparency. lack of trust. Frustration. Being called elitist?

Journeyman Geek

4:37 AM

@AGirlHasNoName Yip

Pretty much all those things

user310756

@david it's not quite that clear cut. I do not want to be hated, but that is how it's turned out. I wanted to stand up for the site and the CMs. But it has deteriorated and all that has happened today is - well if people are going to hate me - let them.

user310756

It's made me dig in my heels, which is a mixture of good and bad

user384163

@JourneymanGeek So how do we take that symbol from her mantle

Journeyman Geek

And it feels like those are great things to tear down

user384163

I agree with Aza more though

4:38 AM

@AGirlHasNoName we can't. SE, can

@Nobody unfortunately what seems to happen is when you post it attracts a lot of unwanted attention and winds up making things worse

user310756

I originally wanted people to just think with more balance

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName well slowly work on tearing those things down obviously

user194636

@Nobody Just for the record, I would have up viewed your answer if the few bits of shockingly rude or abusive material had been edited out. Most were tangential to the main point I think you were making anyway. There is fair criticism to be made and a case to answer as I wrote in my response to her.

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName And that's fine

user384163

4:39 AM

She is what people want her to be. That is why the bigots can hold her up as one of their own

user206222

I think the fact that Monica acts as a symbol is probably one of the largest prohibiting factors in her reappointment. The way Monica writes (no assessment about whether it's deliberate) sharply encourages people to think of her as Monica the Symbol. And... she just, can't be reappointed until that's let go of. It's a catch-22, and I envy neither Monica nor SE.

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName If she isn't painted as a bigot they lose that

user310756

@david yes. And I do have a small group of users who have followed me around. Tracked what I'm doing and taken me to task about everything I do. In a malicious manner. they may not realise it's malicious, but the end result is, throw enough mud and it sticks.

user206222

Reappointing her, in the public eye, isn't just about whether a friend can regain their respect, like it is for a lot of moderators. It stands for a whole lot more than that.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Nobody the intentions are praisable. the delivery sometimes comes as a "shove this balance down your throat", if I may

4:40 AM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier yeah, agree

@Shog9 Awww too much frustration? Take a hug from your good friend. :D

user206222

It takes the cooperation of the person and many community members to start to deconstruct that symbolism. If she wants to hold onto it, or doesn't see how the way she writes encourages it, it won't happen. If the CMs, mods, users don't want to let go of her as a symbol, then even if she wants it to stop... she doesn't really have a choice.

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier that is true. I tend to have that personality... A little aggressive. It comes from feeling like it's constant fight and by this point where all my posts are routinely downvoted, I do go on with my gloves up. To be fair, anyone would. Look how Monica reacted to one person criticising her and she had so much support against that criticism. I deal with that type of criticism X 20 every time I step onto the site. And some people are now stepping up, but I was totally alone for a while

user206222

The act of symbolization is quick to set and slow to undo. It can be performed by anyone, at any time. It can only be undone very slowly, via mutual cooperation.

user310756

@Aza that was what I was trying to convey- I honestly should have gotten you to write the post

Journeyman Geek

4:42 AM

But that leaves us with people still seeing her as such. There's still pain

user310756

@JourneymanGeek we all know that. The thing that is not being heard is the unpopular kids are in pain too

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I hope confused historians will read this transcript in ten thousand years

user206222

There's still pain because people are holding onto that pain. Now is when the question moves away from Monica, and the questions get harder.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza I doubt she can help how she writes

user310756

the way we're being treated is not ok you know

user206222

4:43 AM

Why are people hurt by their parasocial relationship with Monica? Do people want to hold onto that hurt? I imagine some do. If so, why? How can we encourage them to stop? Or, can we at all?

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody You assume they do

user310756

@Aza I think some people enjoy the conflict and want to be miserable with the site. I've noticed a pattern with people from MSO - they're now on MSE doing the same thing

Journeyman Geek

It's more important to give them a voice than to speak for them.

@Nobody but you admit that you bring this on yourself. If you don't like being a beacon for hate then either stop, or take much more care in how you word your posts.

2

user206222

@JourneymanGeek I think she can, but it's a slow process, to be sure.

user310756

4:44 AM

@JourneymanGeek assume what do?

user310756

@david it's now a point where it doesn't matter what I post

user384163

@JourneymanGeek Most of us are too afraid to speak.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Or more that that's basically her strength, pointed the right way

@AGirlHasNoName And that's a core issue

@Nobody I don't believe that.

user310756

case in point meta.stackexchange.com/a/336416/310756

user310756

4:45 AM

@david you don't have to, it's a fact

user206222

@Nobody I think so, too. But I don't think pain is aimless. Certainly some people perform certain social activities to for the exclusive purpose of being hurt by other people, but I think they're in the minority.

Journeyman Geek

At the very least if someone is to speak for you they need to understand

user384163

@JourneymanGeek I explicitly appreciate @Nobody trying to speak out for us.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek It's a strength because it permits her to write strongly when she's in a moderator position. It's... not a strength, right now.

user310756

@Aza sometimes I think that's me. But then I remember the relief when I reach an accord with someone and know it's not true

4:46 AM

@Nobody Part of the problem with that post is that it comes off as a pseudo-braggy 'look how moderator i am, listen to me' dictation

user206222

@Nobody that's a good litmus test :)

Journeyman Geek

@Aza we can't have people only using their talents when it's convenient

and telling people to "settle down and trust the remaining moderators" is never going to sit well

user310756

@david that was edited in after the pile on started

@Aza do you want to know at least one person's perspective on this?

user310756

4:47 AM

@Aza I know there's something pathologically wrong with me - I always fight for the underdog

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Neither can people ignore the impacts of using the wrong talent at the wrong time. I could be a master marbleworker, but if I bring a hammer and chisel to my grandma's turkey dinner she's going to be awfully confused.

user310756

that's why I have horses no one wanted

@Nobody no it wasn't edited in, I checked the history and it was there from the start

I was an OS/2 user as well

user206222

@enderland More than one, for sure. I'd be happy to listen.

Journeyman Geek

4:48 AM

@Shog9 Condolences.

WPS4LYFE!

you listed your deleted comment stats as if that gave you authority

user310756

@david saying I deleted >100k comments is trying to say I'm used to seeing the pattern of comment flagging. How is that brag? The 75k flags was to add weight.

user310756

It adds strength to the notion that mods do review these things

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

not really

4:49 AM

To you that makes sense, but to people reading it it comes across as braggy and self-righteous

user310756

ofc it does. It speaks for how the mod end of it works

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

to you

user384163

I mean that is literally the kind of experience back-up that some sites requires as evidence

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 I used to have a VM of it somewhere. Used to scare people with it 😁

user310756

that's because you don't like me

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

4:49 AM

I think part of the hardness of communication is we ain't speaking with us

@Nobody no, don't take it as a personal attack. you need to be able to take criticism objectively

user310756

if it was someone else - it would be different. and I think the way I word things also - but there's predispositon now

Journeyman Geek

I honestly have no idea how many flags I have deleted.

otherwise it will always feel like everyone is out to get you

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

we need to be understood by others, and sometimes that means saying things differently than how we understand them

Journeyman Geek

4:50 AM

I've done less the past few weeks. That much I know

user310756

I left and people were missing me on SO - I come back and I'm hated

@Nobody - I am sorry; No matter who submitted the answer, you submitted, I would have read it the same way.

user384163

Then just back off because she is feeling attacked

user310756

@AGirlHasNoName thank you

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody something about squeeky wheels

user310756

4:51 AM

@JourneymanGeek huh? sounds like a story

user384163

Rehashing in chat isn't helping. Three people putting her on the defensive isn't helping

user310756

thank you!

Journeyman Geek

I'm actually a popularish mod and I am sure some folks will complain

user310756

@JourneymanGeek you're in with the popular mod group

Journeyman Geek

But the critics will critique

user310756

4:51 AM

I don't fit in. for many reasons

Journeyman Geek

They are loud

user384163

@Nobody Story of my life!

@JourneymanGeek - Your only popular cause you love schnauzers :-)

user310756

have you had much criticism JM?

Journeyman Geek

We don't do this for the attention. Certainly the pay is crap

4:52 AM

@Nobody That answer of yours took me to another related question. Moderator messages added in a CW? Since when are moderator messages made public and written in answers?

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody Lots

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@AGirlHasNoName How is it possible to interact then? Any response seems to be "putting her on the defensive"

user310756

@AGirlHasNoName sometimes it feels good. Other times it's just lonely

Journeyman Geek

But we do stuff cause it's needed.

@NogShine Are you referring to Robert? If so, he added the screenshot himself in a comment

4:52 AM

Is this Meta SE forgetting what has been done previously?

user310756

@NogShine ikr! It's becoming a free for all. That's what I've been trying to say

Journeyman Geek

@NogShine Not really

Good grief....who stared my comment?

user384163

@FélixGagnon-Grenier What do you need to tell her right now? What point is absolutely necessary to score?

It wasn't even the schnauzer statement :-(

4:53 AM

@Rob I am talking about a CW answer with detailed procedure of what happened between mod and Robert Harvey.

user310756

@Ramhound this chat has been good. But I tell you. I would be in chat and someone will say something critical of me and they're always starred. Same with comments on the site. People don't realise how destructive it is

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody practically? There's probably a bunch of folks who appreciate your presence and won't say stuff

user310756

@NogShine yeh Robert posted those on MSO. I still think it shouldn't be a post

user384163

@NogShine Robert gave permission

user310756

there's a lot of case building

4:54 AM

@NogShine He left this comment: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/389906/…

@Nobody I agree.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek they're a minority and it's for them that I bother to show up. But it's hard to take the heat from the majority who don't

user206222

People use the starboard as a way to push others out of the conversation, make someone feel unwelcome, when someone thinks they should leave and they aren't. It's an antipattern of chat's starboard.

user310756

@NogShine yep. I thought I understood where you were coming from

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@AGirlHasNoName The many points of the many so broadly encompassing half truths demagogically inserted here? Why doesn't she have to pass such a screening?

user206222

4:55 AM

It's not shocking there are lots of stars on weird messages with no context.

I'm honestly not sure why stars (not pins) are even a thing

They're almost never useful

user310756

It's like it's become a lawless place and people are really running rough shod over the conventions of the site

user310756

@Aza agree!

user206222

@Rob We have stars because Chat.SE was supposed to be fun ;)

Oh, well there's the problem. Fun is banned here

7

Journeyman Geek

4:56 AM

@Rob They often are. Just in more normal times

user384163

starfest?

This room is full of stars. So we are not supposed to complain about stars here. ;D

user310756

true

user310756

ok Shog's other half. I've never chatted with you before :) @NogShine

user310756

How are you?

4:57 AM

Aug 31 '10 at 16:18, by Shog9

@Diago There are no memes on MetaChat. Just chaos. And banishment.

I would consider myself in that "parasocial" category, as although I did trade emails with Monica initially in this process, we've not stayed in touch since.

It deeply bothers me to see the way this whole thing has gone because at a point in my life when I had the bandwidth to care, I _deeply_ cared. Not about Monica but about SE.

I _love(d?)_ the goal of creating a Q/A wiki in an Internet with forums and the terrible forum sites. The vision of creating a better place on the internet! I spent years dedicating many, many, _many_ hours of my life and emotional energy towards that goal.

3

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody It's a genuine counterfeit sock.

user206222

@enderland This is longer, so give me a little bit to think.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek ikr

and TIL I've forgotten SE chat's silly markdown rules. I think, that I consider that a good thing

user384163

4:58 AM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier but you were rehashing her already dealt with question and there were three of you and it was escalating. When you saw that escalation you told her she was wrong for feeling that way. So I spoke up.

@Nobody Hi. I don't know you, but I hate to see you having such a struggle. Just wanted to say that.

Journeyman Geek

@enderland ... Rules ... there's rules?

user310756

@enderland it's because the structure of the business side has changed

user310756

it's inevitable

user310756

@DeNovo thank you. I appreciate it.

Journeyman Geek

4:59 AM

@enderland I have theories but eh. It would come close to assigning blame 🤣

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@AGirlHasNoName ? you mean when I said "not really"? (wrong for feeling that way)

user310756

@AGirlHasNoName and that's a pattern that is not usually stopped and often I will end up being kicked, as I get upset

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