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Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
12:55 AM
@Undo Timeline says the user was destroyed
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
3 hours ago, by ArtOfCode
@Undo deleted by Community, user is deleted - collateral is right
 
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
1:13 AM
@ArtOfCode Deleted and destroyed mean two different things.
But yeah, since 1. the post was positively scored, and 2. the post was on meta, where no posts are auto-deleted as a result of normal deletion, it makes sense.
 
Undo
Undo
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog This isn’t technically meta though
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
1:30 AM
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog user is deleted, not user was deleted. If we're being pedantic.
 
De Novo
De Novo
So, I realize there are fires everywhere and moderators are stretched thin, but any idea on when we're going to get caught up on flags?
 
David A
David A
Is all activity by the Community account automated or is it used on behalf of people?
 
De Novo
De Novo
I totally get that it might be a while. Just trying to see where we're at.
 
George Stocker
George Stocker
They nukes the account that asked the question about the podcast? Interesting
 
duplode
duplode
@DeNovo From keeping an eye on my own flags, it seems custom mod flags at quieter places have been taking anywhere between 12-48 hours to handle. Right now I have one pending for about a day.
 
De Novo
De Novo
1:36 AM
@duplode thanks, that's helpful to know
 
duplode
duplode
@GeorgeStocker That account did look rather like a special-purpose sockpuppet, though I don't truly know what are the customary practices for dealing with such situations.
Anyway, that question has been undeleted, which is not so bad after all. At least it has a reasonable, non-conspiratorial answer to go along with it.
 
Laf
Laf
Made me think about this whole situation, don't know why.
 
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
@ArtOfCode If deleted is treated as a past tense verb rather than an adjective, it's correct. (If we're being more pedantic.)
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
1:52 AM
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog that's... literally what I was saying.
 
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
@Undo Meta Stack Exchange was also affected by the change to not delete negatively-scored posts upon normal user deletion on meta sites.
 
Catija
Catija
The Tavern: Home to the every day pedantic party. 🎉
 
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
 
David A
David A
Is that... Techmoan's puppet?
Every time a pedant says something, you're being given an opportunity to avoid embarrassment in the future.
 
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
2:11 AM
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
🍺
 
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Great, another instance...
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@DeNovo hopefully eventually but flags are likely coming fast and furious
Things need to get sorted and calm first
 
 
1 hour later…
LinkBerest
LinkBerest
3:38 AM
@Undo That sounds horrible. However, as someone who has had/still has those types of groups regularly threaten his life: I agree on the post - there was bad things posted. They were deleted. The user removed. The post itself is not invalid so should be restored.
(fyi, I've been trying to ignore meta but got a ping and then saw "Nazi" listed in a feed & that worries me enough I needed to check)
 
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog
4:06 AM
@Shadow Belated congratulations on your full dupehammer abilities!
 
 
2 hours later…
mag
mag
6:11 AM
morning
 
JAD
JAD
hai
 
rene
rene
6:43 AM
→ 24 messages moved to Chimney
 
Shadow
Shadow
@rene kaboom
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog thanks!
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
I've just realized I've beena bit of a traitor to my own kind by posting pics of kittens, so here's some red wolf pups to compensate:
 
rene
rene
7:03 AM
@Cerbrus it said in the news that we need to leave the young wolves alone, as they do start to explore new territory, coming from Germany. And keep your dog on the leash as they are prey. Which I found kind of funny.
 
mag
mag
there's an ongoing conservation effort for wolves in germany
they want to bring them back into the woods
 
user58
user58
The wolves breed with loose Huskies.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
@rene They're quite vulnerable yea
 
Shadow
Shadow
@user58 what's the result? Loose wolves?
 
user58
user58
A crossbreed
It was an issue here at some point, I think
Someone let loose a bunch of Huskies and they bred with the (sparse population of) wolves
 
rene
rene
7:10 AM
@mag same here. Your conservation effort is so successful that a few wolves migrate to the Veluwe.
 
Shadow
Shadow
@user58 here as in your area, I guess?
 
user58
user58
Yeah
 
mag
mag
@rene thats a good thing I think?
 
rene
rene
it is new so it has both sides. Farmers want already compenstaion
 
SPArchaeologist-様
SPArchaeologist-様
morning
 
rene
rene
7:14 AM
morning
 
Shadow
Shadow
morning
 
SPArchaeologist-様
SPArchaeologist-様
@Tinkeringbell Were you by chance able to look at the flag I raised?
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@SPArchaeologist-様 I did... I also asked a CM as you were right that that was not one for me to handle ;)
 
mag
mag
morning @glor
 
Glorfindel
Glorfindel
morning
... it isn't the time of day for that.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
7:18 AM
Of course it is, it's always a good time for ice cream!
 
BelovedFool
BelovedFool
Fun fact: there is currently 90,909 not deleted questions on MSE *-*
 
Shadow
Shadow
Call me when it's 99999
The one posting the 100000th question will get 100000 rep bonus.
 
Nog Shine
Nog Shine
To post a "We got 100k questions on MSE!".
 
Shadow
Shadow
:D
@Nog do you still Shine? ;)
 
JAD
JAD
@rene I heard a bunch of sheep were killed last week
 
mag
mag
7:21 AM
I mean, they're wolves
sheep are in their prey scheme
 
Shadow
Shadow
They should be taught to control their urges, like we humans do. :D
 
Nog Shine
Nog Shine
@Shadow Yes!!
 
Shadow
Shadow
@NogShine Good!!
 
JAD
JAD
@mag well, I found the article. It was 14 sheep. That's quite a lot for a single wolf (Afaik there are only 2 in the Netherlands)
 
Shadow
Shadow
2 wolves in whole country???
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
7:25 AM
@Shadow There's some at the zoo too, for sure.
 
JAD
JAD
@Shadow they were extinct for a long time. A pair recently came in from Germany
Note that Dutch nature reserves are not that big and very fragmented. Combine that with it just being a small country and wolves requiring a large territory
 
Shadow
Shadow
Heh. Weird.
 
user58
user58
8:00 AM
→ 21 messages moved to Chimney
 
mag
mag
@Shadow we've sort of already done that, those are called dogs
took some time though
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
(And for some, it still didn't work :P)
 
user58
user58
there was a dogfight in the street outside my house yesterday
dogs are definitely still part wolf
...I avoided going out until they were gone
 
mag
mag
our small office dog is the prime example of a dog that is no longer part wolf
 
JAD
JAD
I thought a dogfight was with airplanes?
 
mag
mag
8:11 AM
doesn't bark, incredibly cuddly, non agressive towards anything (even cats and other dogs) and a huge scaredy cat
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
I didn't see that much outside yesterday. Came home, took a shower, had a loooong chat... fell asleep. There's definitely someone out here not cleaning up after their dog though, there's poop everywhere on one of the streets I have to walk home :(
 
user58
user58
People don't seem to get the idea of "leashes" or "picking up after your dog" in this town, so.... yeah.
You'd think after some kids got bitten that they'd crack down a bit, but nope.
And it's not like there aren't leash-free dog parks. :/
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@mag heh. Ash once woke me up at 4 am, wanted to go for a long walk, and figured he could take on 5 feral dogs... at his age.
Most dogs are all a little wolf ;p
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek He probably figured you could take on 5 feral dogs XD
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@user58 even if you think your dog is well behaved.
@Tinkeringbell naw, he thinks I can't protect myself ;p
 
mag
mag
8:14 AM
@JourneymanGeek mhm. our office dog is making the rounds this morning and just collecting pets from everyone
there was a business meeting where everyone stopped to pet the dog when he came by
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek XD That's cute ;)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Tinkeringbell terriers are... pocket badasses.
 
user58
user58
@JourneymanGeek Yep. Also, allergies... some people in my family are anaphylactic-level allergic to dogs...
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
They're small dogs bred to hunt down dug in badgers and rats and stuff.
@user58 I was thinking rogue PMD riders but that counts too.
If ash is not on a leash, he's carried ;p
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek I know! We used to have a rabbit. And then some neighbour would come to visit with her terrier... terrified our rabbit...
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
8:15 AM
@Tinkeringbell erf
that's just dumb
 
user58
user58
(Which people do not understand. They all think "it's okay, he's gentle" negates the allergies. >.<)
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Yeah, we kinda forget Zoey was a prey animal :(
 
user58
user58
@JourneymanGeek that's reasonable
 
JAD
JAD
@user58 o.O
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@user58 ash is off leash trained though
and that's pretty important if you have a dog
 
user58
user58
8:16 AM
@Tinkeringbell One of my friends has a big dog. And a tiny goat. You can guess what happens all day.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@user58 the goat bullies the dog? ;p
 
user58
user58
Unfortunately not...
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@user58 Cute picture opportunities?
 
user58
user58
Let's just say the goat gets a lot of exercise.
And that if you walk into their yard you're likely to get run over by a goat and then by a dog.
 
mag
mag
turns out by the way, the presence of the dog has significantly improved the mood in marketing, order processing and IT
because thats where he spends most of the day
 
user58
user58
8:19 AM
How about in the DPO's office?
 
mag
mag
I dont have my own office, i'm in a corner in IT
I used to but the space was needed
 
user58
user58
welp
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
I can totally attest to office dogs reducing stress ;p
 
user58
user58
you are the office dog here
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Exactly!
 
Bart
Bart
8:33 AM
@JourneymanGeek previous place where I worked we also had on office dog (from the boss) ... didn't reduce stress one bit. You had to stop work every time because it peed and pooped everywhere, chewed on cables, had the most noisy toys ... not the dog's fault though.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Bart then it was not the office dog. It was the Boss's pet
those are horrible no matter the species ;p
 
 
1 hour later…
mag
mag
9:36 AM
 
user58
user58
that looks like a poorly-formed site-recommendation
...so my VTC was for Unclear
 
Zoe the transgirl
Zoe the transgirl
@user58 No, it refers to a tech stack, not a Stack Exchange site for tech.
 
user58
user58
9:49 AM
*shrugs* not my field of expertise
 
djsmiley2k - CoW
djsmiley2k - CoW
people are scared of my avatar :O
Also hmmm my transparency didn't work :/
 
user58
user58
you need to use gravatar for transparency, I think
 
 
1 hour later…
mag
mag
11:10 AM
slow fridays are good fridays
 
rene
rene
nah, we're in the eye ....
 
JAD
JAD
@rene so the storm is about the continue in opposite direction?
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
The US hasn't woken up yet.
 
JAD
JAD
SE yelling at users?
 
rene
rene
all options are open.
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
11:21 AM
Also, there seem to be more than enough users willing to post speculative questions to reignite the outrage.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Yeah :/
 
rene
rene
Yeah, we better remove reputation as well so we can have this free discussions in the future as well ....
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
Hopefully we can deal with some of the future speculative questions by closing as duplicates.
 
rene
rene
I actually thought a bit for posting an FR that would ask for closing MSE for anyone without an account and meta rep on any other site in the network. My expectation is that would go south quick.
 
terdon
terdon
@Raedwald Is that really a bad thing?
Do we want this to quietly go away?
 
mag
mag
11:26 AM
we can't just do business as usual tbh
something has to give this time
or next time will be even worse
and there'll be a next time, there's always a next time, even if everyone involved is trying their best to avoid it
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@rene I kinda did something along those lines
 
mag
mag
I would like to see rate limits on comments on mse
 
terdon
terdon
@rene It needs to be open to everyone if it is supposed to be the network meta site. And, like all meta sites, it shouldn't have its own rep system.
 
mag
mag
maybe staggered by reputation like shog once suggested
would be an excellent time to remove some momentum
 
David A
David A
Podcast question is back (minus the more off-topic stuff).
 
terdon
terdon
11:28 AM
But the last thing we should want is for everything to go quiet.
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
@terdon SE culture includes reducing duplication by design. At some point, further expressions of outrage, disappointment and calls for specific actions contribute nothing. Just upvote the existing protests or suggestions.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@terdon erf. There's no really good way to do that though
 
rene
rene
@terdon there are some similar "threads" to needs resolution. I think I closed a new question y'day as a dupe without it being contested. Once we reach the state that new questions can be closed against existing ones I would say we reached normal state.
we're not there yet, agree on that
 
terdon
terdon
@Raedwald SE culture also used to include treating your users with respect. I really, really don't want to allow SE to bury this under duplicates.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
There's no parent site like other sites
And SO is so much bigger
 
terdon
terdon
11:29 AM
@JourneymanGeek Sure there is: cancel all meta reputation tomorrow and replace it with network rep.
 
mag
mag
@Raedwald this isn't an event that fits into an existing site paradigm
2/3 of the questions relating to this are strictly speaking off topic
nobody cares
 
terdon
terdon
@rene But is that a good thing?
 
user58
user58
@terdon But mah rep
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@terdon see 'SO is so much bigger'
 
terdon
terdon
How can we be normal while SE is behaving as they are? Why would we want to be normal?
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:30 AM
A lot of folks in smaller sites would be disadvantaged
 
terdon
terdon
@JourneymanGeek I don't see why that's a problem. So SO people will have more rep. Big deal. Rep shouldn't mean anything on meta anyway.
@JourneymanGeek Why disadvantaged?
 
mag
mag
@terdon I elaborated this elsewhere but in the complex web of effects and causes they probably have no choice then to press on
 
terdon
terdon
@mag That's... really not good enough.
 
user58
user58
@TimStone has a script that adds network rep to MSE posts.
Although it's never quite worked for me.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@terdon rep reflects expertise and trust.
 
mag
mag
11:31 AM
Aza also mentioned this but this is quickly turning into a gamergate like situation where outside forces are latching onto the outrage to gain new supporters. It's not tenable for the company to give in to that in any way
 
terdon
terdon
And I don't see why we, the community, should allow them to move on and just sweep their behavior under the rug.
@mag Give in?
 
David A
David A
To the uninitiated, this might look like the collective equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum because his parents won't pay attention to him and screaming ever louder.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@mag that's a natural reaction to disrupting the status quo then letting it happen
 
David A
David A
Actually it probably looks like that even to the initiated.
 
mag
mag
@JourneymanGeek I'm not absolving SE of any blame here, i'm saying they have no way out anymore
not now, it's too late for that
 
terdon
terdon
11:33 AM
@mag I don't see why they cannot offer an official apology to monica and a retractoin/correction of the register article.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@mag so There are actually two sets of issues
 
terdon
terdon
I don't want them to roll back the CoC.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Monica is a shorter term thing.
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
@terdon There is at least one MSE question that deals with that.
 
mag
mag
@terdon because that will be seen and percieved in influential circles as supporting transphobia (they dug themselves deep with that press comment) and it will be seen as validating and giving into alt right influence
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:33 AM
The longer term thing is community trust as a whole
 
terdon
terdon
The new FAQ is great and something I can happily live with. But I do not want to be giving any help or support to a company that treats its user that way.
@Raedwald I know. And I would be happy to see dozens.
 
mag
mag
the dynamic is bigger then just us right now
 
David A
David A
If they can get Monica on board, she's probably got enough influence to quell most of the CoC naysayers.
Hopefully someone can just make a phone call and resolve all this.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@DavidA That would require someone to pick up the phone...
 
terdon
terdon
@mag How can "we misrepresented what actually happened and, in any case, we should never have gone to the press" be seen as supporting transphobia?
Especially since nobody really accuses Monica of being transphobic.
Except SE, that is.
 
mag
mag
11:35 AM
@terdon think a little further, do you have to ask that question?
 
terdon
terdon
@mag Yes. Yes, I do.
This is supposed to be an ethical company. If it isn't, why would we help it in any way?
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
@terdon The most convincing explanation I've seen is that, as both SE and Monica are USAian, an apologu would be taken as an admission of guilt that could be used to sue them
 
mag
mag
say SE does this. The uncharitable interpretation of the chain of events will then be:
1. Finally do the right thing after years of handwringing (they mentioned and it is known this has been stewing for a lot longer then an evening in the TL)
2. Alt right supported and controlled outrage
3. Backtrack
I'm not saying that's true in any way, but that's how it'll come across
in a similar way to the gamergate fiasco poisoning any form of ethics debate for years to come
 
terdon
terdon
@mag I don't see that at all. That would make sense if they backtracked on the CoC changes, not if they admitted that they shouldn't have spoken to the press and took steps to mitigate the real harm being caused to one of their users.
 
mag
mag
we have the context, the broader public has soundbytes
and the people on the alt right who'll spin this as their victory will also just use soundbytes
 
terdon
terdon
11:39 AM
@Raedwald I find that very hard to believe, to be honest. I mean that a lawyer can't help them find wording that's vague enough not to be an admission of guilt. But, even so, if this is a company that's fine with throwing a user to the dogs and won't even try to mitigate that for fear of being sued, is that really a company we want to be associated with?
 
mag
mag
whatever they do needs to be devilishly well planned out
 
terdon
terdon
@mag I don't buy that. I've read what Aza has written, but I can't help see it as a strawman. In any case, that's about the CoC, not about the harm they caused to Monica.
 
mag
mag
there are a lot of moving parts to this whole mess now, and simple answers no longer exist
 
terdon
terdon
@mag That is true and would be a first!
@mag Also true. But I think it is important that we, the community, keep up the pressure and don't allow SE to go back to normal unless something is done.
 
mag
mag
I'm not an expert so I don't know how close my analysis is to the truth, but I'm almost certain we need to lower our expectations for what they'll give us
 
terdon
terdon
11:41 AM
Because it really looks like they just hope it will all go away
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@terdon Just... be careful with that. Not forgetting about this is fine, but too much pressure will burn people out, will hurt... and might impede any work being done on progress further.
 
terdon
terdon
@mag I basically want an olive branch, personally. Something that can allow me to continue to help people on this site without feeling that I am supporting a company with no ethics.
 
mag
mag
this has been your daily dose of debbie downer mag (tm) and i'll go back to lavishing our office dog with praise
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
I've mentioned the Rorschach Blot Test before. As most people who are engaged in this can't access the facts about Minca's case, its a perfect situation in which people can be driven by their preconceptions. The mishandling of the Welcome Wagon set up many of those preconceptions.
 
terdon
terdon
@Raedwald Well, the relevant facts are known to all: SE broke their own rules and discussed issues of moderation publicly, not only on the network but in the press.
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
11:43 AM
@mag I'm not sure thats an appropriate term to use for a junior member of staff ;-)
 
terdon
terdon
The details are irrelevant. Whether they were right to demod Monica or not is irrelevant.
 
user58
user58
@Tinkeringbell Also, some of the current pressure is pressure in the wrong places. And is harmful and detrimental to moving forwards. Make sure you're pressuring the right things.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
^ That too, times 1000
 
terdon
terdon
I don't care if Monica were some sort of neo-Nazi extremist spewing bigotry everywhere she went, that would still not excuse their behavior. So none of the private information seems relevant.
 
user58
user58
'cause a lot of the outrage isn't actually doing anything to make the company realize how they mishandled it. It's just making things worse for those who the company was trying to protect... but mishandled rather badly.
 
terdon
terdon
11:46 AM
The only other way forward I can see is that we all agree to ignore SE as much as possible. That they have as much relationship with us as Amazon does with someone hosting a service there. We no longer expect anything from them, we do not evangelize their products to our friends, we stay on our sites and ignore anything the company does.
 
user58
user58
@terdon That's not going to be acceptable to a lot of the old-timey users and most of the moderators.
 
terdon
terdon
@user58 I'm both :)
 
Raedwald
Raedwald
@terdon Talking to the press happened only after the outrage had become so loud that the press noticed and were interested. SE applying a foot gun at that point was stupid, yes. But it was already a crisis before then.
 
user58
user58
@terdon I'm well aware :P
 
mag
mag
@Raedwald I'm talking about an actual havanese terrier dog
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:48 AM
@terdon that's a longer term problem I hope gets fixed actually
 
terdon
terdon
@Raedwald So? And remember that Ms Chipps already made the public claim that "a moderator was misgendering another moderator" long before that.
 
user58
user58
@terdon That's probably referring to the... N. incident.
That was bad.
 
terdon
terdon
@JourneymanGeek I'm serious: if SE do not do something to mitigate their screwup in going public, I do not want to be associate with them. I love my communities and I will then consider that a mod's job is to shield them as much as possible from the company.
@user58 I don't care what it was referring to, it should not have been discussed in public. You could have said "a user", why specify a mod? And I doubt it was that incident, that was a long time ago.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@terdon I'm kinda hoping we have more functional and less overtaxed community relations
 
terdon
terdon
@JourneymanGeek With a company that behaves as they have? I don't want to have any relations. They make the product, we use it, end of conversation.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:51 AM
@terdon and that's part of the dysfunction right now
 
terdon
terdon
Anything else would be an endorsement of the company's behavior.
@JourneymanGeek I think the disconnect comes from our expecting more from them. If we just accept that they're nothing more but the latest Evil Tech Company, we would have no expectations.
 
mag
mag
@terdon if we want to analyse or influence what SE does next, the key component is understanding their motives
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@terdon then I'm probably gone
 
terdon
terdon
@JourneymanGeek Yep. Me too
 
mag
mag
I'd say you have a pretty good understanding of their motives. Do you have any idea for a way to exert pressure that isn't likely to lead to stonewalling or ignoring?
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:54 AM
What folks were doing before this blew up
 
mag
mag
did any of that work
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Small scale / specific pressure
 
terdon
terdon
@mag I don't really have much hope that we can influence them any more. You can only be influenced by those whose opinions and well-being you care about. If, as is becoming harder and harder not to believe, SE doesn't give a hoot about public Q&A and only cares about shareholders, there is nothing we can do.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Hm. A little? It's a circus now
 
mag
mag
we went from somewhat healthy but dysfunctional relationship to being ignored because we're meanies to toxic people they want to get rid of
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:54 AM
If I knew what to do I would
At the same time I don't really want to burn bridges just yet
 
mag
mag
and sure, a part of that is true. MSE is pretty toxic as of late. But people are a product of their environment
treat them with disrespect, they'll lash out
 
terdon
terdon
MSE has been toxic for years, in various ways, if we're being honest.
3
 
mag
mag
never as overtly though
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@mag the recent events drew it brought that out
 
mag
mag
@terdon the extent to which MSE was toxic always came from neglect in a sense though
 
terdon
terdon
11:58 AM
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I think it is counter productive to advocate for everything going back to normal. We should absolutely advocate for calm and civil discourse, yes. But not for silence and back to Q&A as usual.
 
mag
mag
I don't see a path forward tbh except back to normal
if any real change comes out of this, it can't be seen to have come out of this
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
back to normal was calm and civil, IIRC.
 
mag
mag
and needs to go through backchannels in the months ahead, unconnected to this whole mess
 
terdon
terdon
@mag Not really. I felt it was toxic long before that. As soon as you had meta-specific rep, that means that a tiny group of people could control all discussion.
@mag months?
 
mag
mag
s/months/years
 
terdon
terdon
11:59 AM
While we know that a user, a member of three marginalized groups, is under constant threat and harassment? That ain't good enough.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@terdon that was something folks were working on, with I hope a little success before it blew up
And you don't need rep to be toxic
 
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