I really enjoyed reading Kate Gregory's take on assume good intent and its use as a tool to exhaust already marginalized groups

There is a fine line between accepting that and allowing the damage it causes and assuming the worst from isolated incidents

These events are being watched on fascist/supremacist forums with intent to target trans people. The kinds of places that, you know, have actually killed people.

Just, to give some sense of the severity of how quickly things could turn south if we're not careful.

checks if identity is well hidden * convinced I wouldn't know

Yes.

@dfhwze link

I was in the closet so I was loose with my identity.

It didn't dawn on me I would even out myself here. I wasn't planning on it.

So... whelp I wouldn't know how to clean it up if I wanted

@ArtOfCode Make a room for us, I can pass you my SSN.

Of course non-marginalized groups matter. But they already get their representation. Their lives already matter. Asking others to treat marginal groups with respect isn't asking people to deplete the respect pool that then somehow means less respect to go around for the privileged majority folks.

Let's not pretend like there wasn't always going to be resistance. Challenging the status quo always elicits pushback. And there is no way to establish a rule like this without the threat of enforcement. If it was toothless we would get reactionary pushback and zero follow-through.

@Cerberus They are unfortunate. Consider yourself lucky

I just want to go somewhere that Im less likely to be murdered.

and the closet

@Cerberus There are way worse places

I read a story about two 14 yo trans girls there just two days ago.

It made me cry

yes

"The last message was posted 2 hours ago." Is it... could it be true?

@JourneymanGeek Are you suggesting things are back to normal?

I'm not the hopeful type. I'm off to sleep. g'night.

Indeed

ohh my spoons are nice.

and my knives

everything else is crap

Abusive flags, please.

Also this one, though it's borderline given context, and I went with unfriendly/unkind.

@AGirlHasNoName thanks for the flags on TWP. Please raise more if this situations continues.

Just as a heads up, I saw a mumsnet reference just now. It's well known for its severe and violent transphobia. It also has a couple policies that people use to try to cite and bring people in from outside.

Anyone who cites mumsnet knows what they're doing.

(Like, it's "dozens of articles written about how horrifying they are"-tiers.)

vice.com/en_us/article/a3mn9k/…

We should really start to consider closing these new questions as duplicates, I think.

Unless they add something very specific and new, they're kinda turning into soapbox-y rehashings of other questions.

On the basis that they don't contain anything substantively different from the prior questions.

Soapboxing to ask leading questions isn't great, but it's not a reason to close a question. But... a lot of new questions aren't making any new points that aren't already covered by other questions.

Eh, they are asking "questions," they're just rhetorical, leading questions more aimed to rile people in the community than elicit a response from SE.

I mean, if someone's saying something new, sure. I'm not saying "close all new questions on the topic as duplicates."

Pinning a link to another room could work. However, this could backfire...

There are a lot of people watching this room to do the opposite of the requested moderation activity. We rely on people passively being here to take this stuff down. If all moderation activity moves to another room, it's totally possible the people with greater active interest will move and the passive flaggers... won't.

Moving once handled works by me.

I... don't want to expose that post to main-site rage.

You know that post is gonna be downvoted to hell. A "spotting actionable transphobia" post is... going to die a fast death on MSE, right now.

See, the thing is... I don't want the post about how to spot actionable transphobia, to be flooded with actual transphobia.

That would a) muddy the waters a lot and make it confusing to use and implement, and b) expose people to that kind of abuse, who are vulnerable to it. Especially in the forms that can't readily be flagged away.

We'd need six people committed to keeping it spotless.

I.. really think this would backfire, truthfully.

I mean, there's the other question of like... what level of detail are you actually interested in?

"Preferred pronouns" is (almost always) transphobia, it's just very low-grade.

Transphobia mutates over time. There's a more general skillset to being able to adapt and change to what transphobia looks like from one moment to the next.

In general, it has an extremely high mutation rate, as people try to undercut the language we use to describe ourselves and work to actively undermine in the public eye. So it's never clear exactly what form it'll take. A list will essentially be immediately obsolete, for that reason.

The general skillset, of identifying the ways in which transphobia has mutated over time... I don't think can easily be taught by writing down in one document, but I could certainly try.

Well, those two are gonna be around for a while, sure.

@user1306322 yep!

Okay, there's someone here who's actually just outright a troll. I'm gonna raise a mod flag, but in the meantime... some comment links:

One, two, three. Mix of personal attacks + gender mockery.

Abusive flags on comment one and comment two, also.

Aaaalso abusive flags here. Man, just rolling in 'em today.

(This one is more subtle and I don't expect y'all to see it immediately / agree. Essentially what's happening here is, someone's saying "your behavior is making it hard for me to support anyone like you," which is... seriously awful, and is constantly used as a means of silencing people.)

@AndrasDeak :P

@Aza That's a very brutal interpretation. I find it distressing that you're going around asking for r/a flags on such comments and trying to shut down the opposing viewpoint.

If someone says "I don't like your actions, and that's making it harder to support you," that's fine. If someone says, "I don't like your actions, and that's making it harder to support trans people," that's not cool.

I'm also comfortable leaving that up for moderator / CM judgement [shrug]

This one's still up from someone who's had several other very trolling comments.

@Magisch It's not saying anything coherent, it's just word soup used as mockery.

@Aza The crucial point here is that if you're unwilling to be sympathetic to others' views (or at least willing to presume good intent), then it also gets harder for others to be sympathetic to your views and the group you're apparently representing (no matter which group). This is typical human nature that Martin's elucidating; none of us are saints here (and neither are we bias-free or fallacy-free).

I'm not a representative of a group.

I have a strong voice, I try to advocate for my friends. I'm not a representative, and making me into a paragon of Queerness is a gross mistake. It's also a way of silencing other queer people whose voices need to be heard.

It's a way of boxing queerness into a specific person, a specific person's actions.

It makes every step I take need to be perfect, lest I alone cast a harsh light on all queer people.