Tavern on the Meta - 2019-10-13 (page 2 of 6)

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11:00 AM

Isn't that what you ask of Monica?

@Blue personally, I don't flag any and all comments linked. Some of them are wrong but not offensive in my opinion enough to be removed. I think it is worth leaving them for other users to have a chance to reply and explain why the linked comment is wrong. Some of them technically have merit, and in the spirit of presuming good intent, I leave those be. Others may flag at their own discretion. I think of linked comments as "up for everyone's consideration".

2

user206222

Raising me above all other queer people solely because I happen to be more public about it is the mistake, and serves only to silence people who need and deserve to be heard.

2

@user1306322 as it should be

user437611

@Aza The very fact that you're advocating for a certain viewpoint (pertaining to a specific group, in a positive sense) makes you a representative or at least a supporter of that group, whether you consciously believe it or not.

user206222

@Blue And I'm going to fight that perception just as hard as I'll fight transphobic comments.

user206222

11:03 AM

I'm not your, or anyone's, token queer. My opinions are not the only queer opinions, and mine shouldn't be used as a means of shutting down others'.

2

@user1306322 Oh don't lean on me man, 'cause you can't afford the ticket I'm back on Suffragette City

@Aza I believe present company is aware of that

user206222

@AndrasDeak Present company is not aware of that, judging by the seven stars above.

user206222

This would be a non-issue, otherwise.

@user1306322 it is a flag-pls (as in flag please, not flag or I stab you) (a bit rephrased from the SOCVR FAQ: socvr.org/faq#GEfM-cv-pls-not-stab )

11:05 AM

@AndrasDeak controversy isn't inherently bad.

@Aza I disagree. I also said that you're a representative. Even though I know you don't intend to be. I meant that "the masses" as a whole see you do what is merely speaking up for your own rights, but they'll see more.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza and yet if people don't state that how would you know?

user206222

@AndrasDeak And as I said, I'm going to fight that perception just as hard as I'll fight transphobic comments.

user206222

It's really important that I'm not the only queer person people listen to.

@rene even "flag please" is not a neutral call to action. Maybe consider "potential flag" instead?

11:06 AM

@Aza raising in what way?

@Aza as far as I'm concerned you're not :P

I weigh everything you say

@user1306322 it works in SOCVR, if everyone acts sensible we should be fine.

@user1306322 this concept has been used widely before this all began. Always use your own judgement before casting flags

Journeyman Geek

I have issues with specific folks acting in a way I feel is bullying. It makes it more difficult to be sympathetic. They dismiss it simply cause they feel vulnerable folks cannot be bullies.

3

It hurts their cause but...

user206222

@Shadow Elevating my thoughts as a paragon of queerness. It puts me in a position of either convincing someone that I am correct, or alternatively, that queer people are wrong.

Journeyman Geek

11:07 AM

We apparently value conflict as a way for change

@rene perhaps right here, right now, is it better to pick another way to phrase it then, because as you can see we are not 100% fine

user437611

@Aza Alright, more power to you. In any case, I'd suggest focusing less on the fighting aspect, and focusing more on explaining. That way you'll persuade more people. If someone fights me, I'll automatically develop a negative bias of them and the opinions they represent; that's a good principle to keep in mind when interacting with people in general (especially if you'd want them to respect your opinions).

3

Journeyman Geek

So each person does matter on their own, as other people see them

Without being a representative of them all

user206222

@Blue I know this. I've written extensively about it on Stack Exchange.

@Aza well I see you as someone who speaks on behalf of a group of people. Is that correct?

user206222

11:08 AM

@Shadow No.

@Aza assuming that because an argument is invalid, the conclusion it reaches is false, would be a logical fallacy

user437611

@Aza Glad to hear.

@Aza OK, good to know. :)

user206222

No one voted me in. No one gave me authority. I just stepped up, and had a strong voice. I could be totally wrong. I could be talking over other queer people, who think differently than I do, right now, and neither you nor I would know it.

user206222

Not even 'could be,' I certainly am. Queerness is messy like that.

11:09 AM

@Aza and it's good to keep in mind the effect you may have on others whether you intend to or not

Still, I assume your words and actions have some indirect effect on others. Even if that's not your intention.

user206222

It's not... totally wrong, in the sense that I have a good deal of shared experience with other queer people. But you'll never be able to see where my perspective is limited if the issue is framed as I'm Correct or Queer People Are Wrong.

user206222

Because that framework gives you permission to stop listening if you don't like me.

I don't think it's framed that way

@aza Would you consider negotiating on neopronouns? I feel that their presence in the Coc /FAQ is causing a lot of negative reaction, or at least are having a "last straw" effect. Please don't take this the wrong way! I appreciate that some non-binary people do not consider that singular "they" is an adequate substitute. But is "they" an acceptable compromise?

11:13 AM

"Flag please" comes across as organized brigading.

user206222

@PM2Ring No, I would not consider negotiating on neopronouns. I can't make that decision for people who use neopronouns.

user206222

All I can say is, the people I know who use neopronouns would not negotiate on their usage, so I'm holding that position in their stead.

@Aza Fair enough.

@user1306322 I really don't fancy to throw everything overboard. Also my move script depends on it. I rather explain what please means instead of having an endless debate on a better word. We have more pressing matters on our hands I think.

@Aza I do think neopronouns is where the majority of the opposition is coming from in this place

11:18 AM

I hadn't even heard the term "neopronoun" until this. Google Trends suggests it to be a neologism. trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Neopronoun

@rene agreed, cv-pls is mainstream and it implies the same "for your consideration, use your best judgement"

although I think people are vastly overestimating how often they'll use them going forward

@rene how hard would it be for you to reprogram it to "potential-flag"?

user206222

@Magisch If true, it wouldn't explain the vaaast amounts of outright bigotry we've both seen.

@user1306322 6 to 8 weeks hard

user206222

11:19 AM

Neopronouns are just an easy target, I think, for other nascent... issues.

@Magisch I believe the majority comes from people fearing the CoC will be used as a beating stick on them for honest mistakes

@Aza why not? People don't think in logical terms largely, they have a stereotype in their head and often times that stereotype is exemplified by neopronouns.

@rene then I think it would be fair to expect confusion from the public for as long, just saying.

user206222

@Magisch Yeah, that's what I mean. They have a stereotype in their head, and neopronouns are just an easy thing to latch onto.

there are layers to transphobia, and many more people are disapproving and unaccepting of neopronouns then regular pronouns

11:20 AM

@user1306322 noted

user206222

@Magisch Yep, this is also true.

If you have a group of 100 people unwilling to comply with the new CoC, I bet about half or more would not really have a problem if it was limited to traditional extant pronouns

not that I'm suggesting that anyone needs to compromise on their identity, but it's worth considering

user206222

Mmmm. That's where I'd question the reasoning.

you said it yourself. People think in categories

user206222

So... why are people unhappy about neopronouns?

11:22 AM

trans people who just use a different extant pronoun are (obviously unfairly) seen as in another category as the stereotype

it has to do with how the stereotype proliferates. I doubt you've ever been to the echo chambers where these stereotypes are created, but it's mostly caricatures to the extreme, and the "catch phrase" of that always includes neopronouns

@Magisch people on the other side would (and in fact did) say that they're being asked to compromise sincerely held religious beliefs that are core to their identities, and that's where a lot of this originated.

Why do you think everyone is getting hung up about people making up words to be called as? because that's the only string to their bow in that sense

I doubt the "religious belief" opposition is large enough to cause this level of outrage

user206222

@Magisch (One small caveat -- I am steeped in them, 24/7. Hell, I'm a stereotype of an Angry Queer to a lot of people in this room.)

no you're not

there's a massive far cry between anything real and between what people is coming if they give in on neopronouns

you're steeped in the mellowed reflections of what enters conventional discourse from the fringes

I'd still prefer the religious belief opposition be respected.

Journeyman Geek

11:25 AM

@Aza Two reasons. They don't understand them and they're 'easy' to take the Mickey out of.

user206222

I... actually think we agree in broad strokes, though.

SE's approach also comes across as completely uncompromising, and that's another thing that triggers rebellion in people prone to it.

yeah, sure, this is mostly academic

@Aza Very true. Neopronouns are a convenient identifiable target. OTOH, it's one thing to encourage use of neopronouns, but currently the FAQ seems to be requiring the use of neopronouns when applicable. And for a lot of people, that sounds like an extremist position that they don't want to comply with. I'd rather compromise a little to get a lot more people on-side.

I can't say I agree with the forceful approach of achieving change, but I'm mellow in all things. I'm not really confrontational

Journeyman Geek

11:26 AM

@DavidA it actually is

user206222

@PM2Ring That's... unfortunately not a compromise you get to make on behalf of other people.

user206222

Especially when playing with something that can hurt people (inb4 "that doesn't actually hurt people")

Journeyman Geek

@Aza but there's also how you encourage the change

The way things have happened seem designed for maximum confrontation and confusion

But on the flipside I've seen some of what queer people deal with in the day to day and it is another level of abhorrence even from what I know feels pretty bad (people thinking your sexual orientation is a choice and a joke)

I hate to say it, but people on the other side also feel hurt if their comments are anything to go by.

5

11:28 AM

in a fight, there isn't really a winner

@PM2Ring Also, again, she's not a representative of the entire LGBTQ+ community. Some people would be willing to accept that compromise. Others would not. You'd need to ask the relevant people, not somebody who cannot speak for them.

Journeyman Geek

And if you want people to leave - there can be unacceptable levels of collateral damage if the wrong people leave

And these are two groups that happily solved problems together for years.

user206222

People on the other side are gonna feel hurt because... there's not really any compromise to be had, and there's no way to work a compromise in artificially in a way that doesn't risk causing a real harm.

user206222

So they're not being listened to at all. Sure, that hurts, and it's understandable in kind of an academic way.

11:31 AM

I keep coming back to this point:

2 days ago, by user58

You cannot both require respectful behavior and allow for people who do not want to grant that respect.

@Aza I can't disagree. Personally, I don't have strong feelings about pronouns. However, I have experienced misgendering, and I know that malicious misgendering feels horrible.

user437611

@Aza "Hurt" and "offense" are extremely subjective. Yesterday, I came across this news and was really wondering whether the 10-year-old was actually hurt by the math question or whether she was taught to feel hurt and take offense at such things. In the absence of an embedded stigma/bias, I doubt a child would make such a statement.

2

@Aza I can ask on your behalf if you help me revoke my ban on questions. Deal?

...huh?

@user58 I might not want to respect someone but so long as I give all outward appearances of respecting the person, wouldn't everything be fine? After all, people have said that effects matter, not intentions.

True respect is of course preferable.

11:35 AM

@user58 Understood. I was just asking Aza because she has been acting as an unofficial representative voice of the LGBTQ+ community, in particular trans people. If there were an "out" non-binary person here who uses neopronouns that I could ask instead, I'd do that.

Journeyman Geek

@202324 Uhm. No one, even a mod can lift your question ban.

She isn't a MSE mod so it's a strange bargain to try to make

Alright, then I'd do it for free.

user206222

@Blue With all due respect, this is... a total tangent.

user206222

And/or, your aim is to minimize the severity of the pain of trans people by vaguely implying we were "taught" to feel this pain. Which is not the good-faith reading, here.

user206222

So I'm just gonna move on.

user437611

11:38 AM

@Aza My aim is to understand the severity of the pain of trans people and the reasons behind them.

@Blue I don't think Aza can explain it all single-handedly

@Blue I think that asking someone to explain that pain is asking them to experience it, and I can understand their hesitancy to do that.

user437611

If we are to solve societal problems, the pursuit of facts is more important than emotions.

user437611

@DavidA I can understand.

user206222

@Blue I'm sure not gonna give a helpful reply in response to immediate doubt about its severity.

user206222

11:39 AM

And I'm not gonna relive any of that, performatively, for the people here.

Thing is, we are just unpaid contributors. We are not required to solve any societal problems in this chat room.

user437611

Sure, I don't need an immediate response.

user437611

I'm just trying to understand the topic more thoroughly.

@Blue this is all about emotions

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 Eh. Someone has to do it

user206222

11:40 AM

@Blue Then the actual messages you're sending are extremely out of line with your aims. If your goal is to learn, doing so by coming in and casting doubt on what I/we are trying to communicate is not the way to go about it.

@JourneymanGeek when? where? in what circumstances?

@user1306322 that's very like "hey I'm making a free MINIX clone for 386 (486), nothing serious or big like GNU"

user206222

I'm trying to stay good-faith about this, but your comments' track record is making it extremely difficult to believe you're not Just Asking Questions at me.

@Aza I'm curious as to how that non-negotiation strategy works IRL. When these people you know talk to people who aren't familiar with the pronouns, do they just explain their usage and then the discussion continues with everyone using them from that point on? Or does it mean they refuse to continue a discussion with people who don't get it? Or something else?

@JourneymanGeek the company, on its site, for the monetary value of its product maybe yes. The users on this site? I don't think we are. If this ship takes on any more water and sinks, people will just leave, as they should. It's not our job to fix the rules the company has imposed on itself.

user206222

11:43 AM

@Pascal I don't have lived experience with neopronouns, so anything I can offer is necessarily incomplete. That being said, from what I know, it changes on a case-by-case basis, and depends on an evaluation of trust, context, etc.

user206222

For example: if you are pulled over by a police officer, pressing the issue of neopronouns is... likely to get you arrested or killed. So.

user437611

@Aza I'm sorry if that was your interpretation, I didn't mean to cast doubt on what you're trying to communicate. See, this is the problem with these conversations. Any questions I ask has a chance of being perceived as "casting doubt on the validity", unless I frame it in very careful terms. Anyway, you're free to your opinions of me; I'll look for some other source. This is probably not the right place for this discussion. Cya.

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 I would say we would do it in spite if the company

@JourneymanGeek that would be my understanding also

people are already trying to amend the CoC publicly, to follow in spite of the official one

user206222

Even in a parting message... jeez. All right. I hope you find some meaningful sources elsewhere, then.

Journeyman Geek

11:45 AM

@user1306322 I would say we would do it in spite of he company

@Aza be nice

@Aza meh

@JohnDvorak wat

What's this referring to?

@Aza I suppose the first sentence could be omitted, is what they meant?

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Eh. A lot of what he is saying is what folks are thinking. Its worth at least considering

11:47 AM

unless I'm mistaken in how to read "jeez"

(like it sounds a bit cranky)

@JohnDvorak huh? how could it be read?

I'd forgive anyone in here for being cranky.

here we go again...

I think we should just move on

alright

trash time?

Journeyman Geek

11:49 AM

Naw

Apologies if I misread

:)

"jeez" is mild enough to be common in children's books.

Journeyman Geek

I think these conversations are important

so does anyone know if a dual-band router can be used as both a bridge and as an access point on the two frequency bands? :P

11:50 AM

Depends on the firmware, presumably

@AndrasDeak there's a site for that

Journeyman Geek

No

try hardware recs, could be a good question

not sure it'd be on topic there

@JourneymanGeek thanks, that's what I suspect as well

Sébastien Renauld

I'd also side with "depends on firmware"

Journeyman Geek

11:51 AM

@AndrasDeak if you need that - you essentially need 2 separate devices

One in infra/host mode one in client mode

that's what I've been thinking, and I'm still weighing if it's worth testing with my actual router :D

Journeyman Geek

..... Or a repeater

does chrome not have an easy way to screenshot the entire page like firefox?

@user1306322 I bet there are add-ons for that. Firefox needed those a while back.

There's an addon for it. No idea if there's one for Chrome though.

Journeyman Geek

11:53 AM

@AndrasDeak And some of the forks have good ways of doing it

.... is that a built in now?

Journeyman Geek

Vivaldi has it on the bottom of the window

a user in comments was looking for a way to do it in chrome, so I proposed using Firefox, but they don't wanna install it

@JohnDvorak it's been in dev edition for a while

@JourneymanGeek (good news: the handy figure on tp-link's website suggests it might be possible with my router tp-link.com/us/support/faq/440)

in Firefox you can right-click anywhere on the page, it's at the bottom of the context menu

Journeyman Geek

11:56 AM

Wds needs support from both routers

Huh... TIL the functionality I know I have isn't due to an addon

Journeyman Geek

I wish they would hurry up with openmesh

@user1306322 F12 > Ctrl + Shift + P > type: Screenshot (pick one)

that is easy enough

AFAICT the icon for the built-in feature is the exact same the addon I used had.

@rene thanks I commented with that

11:59 AM

You did get the attribution right, I hope? CC-BY-SA 4.0 ...

yes, it's all attributed to CC-BY-SA 4.0

ight imma head out

-SA means you have to photosynthesize while you're posting. Unless it's at night.

@AndrasDeak it is not night here now

right, your time is what's matters

My reviewing ban in SO is over!

!!/coffee

12:07 PM

@202324 brews a cup of Macchiato for @202324

time to run head-first into a crappy audit

this time I'll do it right

@202324 That's what I keep telling myself, too

Someone appears to be creating accounts with the pattern "First M. Last" and spamming superuser.

@DavidA the best place to handle this is probably the charcoal room

Journeyman Geek

12:12 PM

Can someone help me rollback?

Am.on my phone

@JourneymanGeek not 2K , sorry

Journeyman Geek

Is ok. Done the needful

Also if you need some extra firepower on SU there's a room for that

Damn my paws

Ask a Super User Moderator

For moderation, spam, troublesome users and related issues you...

If it's too messy for a flag

ok

12:58 PM

@JourneymanGeek arugh stupid laptop keyboard deleted all i wrote here and now i don't wanna retype it.

user384163

rude flag plz

@AGirlHasNoName you got it

user384163

whelp I'm just going to go then

1:41 PM

@djsmiley2k heads-up, I rejected your edit because OP wants to sound like a jerk

few more days and I won't be able to do that :P

1:57 PM

I was almost going to propose adding a drama tag so I could filter it out.

lol

@AndrasDeak nod, I get it.

I just.... don't know if we should leave people to be jerks, and so leave the non-confirmitive language.

edit or flag, that is the question I guess

@AndrasDeak Why not?

@djsmiley2k On a post where the whole post is about "I object that I'm forced not to be a jerk", removing the jerkness is too much I think. If it's outright abusive then it should just be deleted.

@djsmiley2k because I'm running out of rep due to answer downvotes :D

but it doesn't matter, I needn't edit things on MSE

Ah ok, I thought some change was 'coming' that'd take effect then and was wondering what :D

I'm about to do the unthinkable. Answer the "calling for a protest" question.

> I can't imagine that it would be appropriate to coordinate disruption or even vote brigading here. I'd look to the respectful example set by the letter sent by the moderators and make a reasoned case that wrong decisions were made. I'm as annoyed by this mess as everyone else, but giving an unambiguously valid reason to be suspended will ruin any good will you have.

2

There goes my rep

2:12 PM

lol, a protest to achieve what :S

I can't see the question so I can't see their 'aim' if there even is one.

14

Q: Is calling for protest actions allowed on metasites?

Is it allowed for user to post question proposing some protest actions against SE site/network? For example propose to avoid using it on concrete date or misuse/overuse some of the rules to explicitly show its inadequacy. Actually not sure if we can join these cases, so if they differ, I'd like t...

Just keep the emotions from overwhelming you and make a good-faith and well-reasoned case for a change. :-)

Journeyman Geek

@DavidA I would also add that constructive and rather vocal critique has always been a tradition on SE at all levels

@DavidA I..... don't even.

At times it's hard to distinguish snark, passion, and anger.

Journeyman Geek

@DavidA don't forget the love of drama

2:18 PM

@JourneymanGeek Even Data in ST:TNG said "Please continue your petty bickering. I find it most intriguing."

mostly anger I think now

Journeyman Geek

@DavidA I'm honestly rather fed up at this point

Like coming back on after Shabbat because you saw you had a ping from someone replying to your comment (about the time-table of these announcements not pronouns) and were going to reply to it after. Only to find all the comments which might have remotely been about the SE staff were deleted - including yours.

Before all this I'd just be "eh, they were getting overwhelmed and just had to clean up. do I want to make a question/answer?". Now I just get angry (because I don't trust their intentions) then shrug and think "its not even worth logging in"

Journeyman Geek

@LinkBerest and yet, I feel this is something that precisely people need to realise

user image

2

Hard work actually helps with burnouts because you're making progress.

2:25 PM

Actually that's my whole problem with the COC Faq (not really the COC) - I don't trust that someone who writes like me (avoiding pronouns because many reasons) wouldn't be seen as "phobic" and suspended

If you're feeling burned out, go do something else (ANYTHING else) that gives you a sense of accomplishment. Even cleaning your house.

Or successfully avoiding ralphing. *nods*

I also find if I try to express that I am attacked (by some people who have been in this room) as phobic because I won't let them exist.

To be fair I have a binary view of people which came from growing up receiving death threats and being the victim of violence because I dared to simply exist: do you want to me dead or no? (I don't care how you define yourself beyond that)

Journeyman Geek

@LinkBerest They have a right to exist

I don't think that is negotiable in any way

The problem I have with the manner the COC was put out is every step of the process has caused conflict

And I don't believe we need to upset the apple cart to create change

and the long term effects of what's going on now are... hazy

user384163

@JourneymanGeek I agree with that whole heartedly. But that argument has also been hijacked to justify the conflict, much of which would have come no matter how gently done.

Journeyman Geek

2:34 PM

@AGirlHasNoName it makes it hard for allies

That's the argument certain people (well person) has thrown at me. Which was interesting because my exact statement is/will always be: "I call you whatever you want, I just don't use pronouns much - esp. you, he, or she - cause that's how I was taught."

user384163

@JourneymanGeek It does

user384163

It absolutely does

Journeyman Geek

The actual issue is lost in...

well.. so much :/

I kinda picked up what actually triggered it off in bits and pieces

i.e. I don't argue with the premise but my execution will fall short a lot because well I have 30+ (let's leave it at +) years of practice

Journeyman Geek

2:35 PM

@LinkBerest so you try

So claiming I'm phobic makes me disengage the last bit of the community that is keeping me here

Journeyman Geek

No one expects it to be easy

@LinkBerest so you don't listen to the people driving wedges in the community

Simply - every person here matters, and using the correct pronoun matters to them

Well, what's left of that community - this hit Worldbuilding hard

Journeyman Geek

it is simple, basic courtesy

@LinkBerest I realise

:/

This hit the MSE mods hard too

I was burnt out

Probably still am. I'm too stubborn to give up

So what do we do? Let things like "I'm too old to learn" and "People are trying to provoke us" get in the way?

Yeah, but I mean when your community has been hit hard by something and you come to see if there is any way to work towards some compromise (i.e. one of those things in which both sides are not 100% happy but more 70% - if its a good one) and find that even saying that somehow "makes you phobic" and the answers/comments (in here too) of some of the community is just to "hit you with the proverbial stick" until you give up......you wonder why keep trying?

you = anyone who disagrees

not people who actually spew hate - deal with them as we always have

Journeyman Geek

2:41 PM

Cause I'm more stubborn than they are 😂

Cause there's still good folks out there who believe in the community and us who I don't want to let down

user384163

@LinkBerest I am a member of TWP and Writing which were also hit very hard. And the very strong visceral pushback has also hurt me very deeply. I think it is safe to say that a lot of people have been hurt by all this.

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName the pushback has me... rather uncomfortable tbh

user384163

Unfortunately I made myself public and some of it has been directed at me personally

Journeyman Geek

:/

user384163

which is beyond uncomfortable

Journeyman Geek

2:44 PM

That shouldn't be how it should go

user384163

@LinkBerest So if I, or someone like me, is combative with you when you are just trying to bring peace, just try to be understanding that a lot of what is being levied at us is outright hate. And FWIW I apologize that we aren't always reasonable. It is hard sometimes when it feels so stacked against you.

user384163

I'm human too. Im biased by my worldview too. Sometimes building bridges is just damn hard.

not you, and you cannot apologize for others but I appreciate it. Also, fwiw, I applaud your courage in coming out even if the pushback has been extreme (I wrote about this somewhere)

I had a friend (Christian, really good guy though) who wore a kippah (yarmulke) for the whole day on my birthday one year - I was still Orthodox at the time so always wore mine. He was incredibly surprised how much it changed how people treated him and how it made him such a target of just random hate. I still wore mine and accepted that but I fear that people adding their "preferred pronoun" will find themselves as targets and face a shock similar to my friend. — LinkBerest yesterday

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName especially when folks keep backing into them with excavators...

(not y'all ;p)

I be fair, when my best friend (who is Jewish) transitioned I wore a dress with her for the whole day before parents were told. I was not surprised at what I found but it did not make it any less painful to watch a friend go through it and there was certainly a lot of it.

user384163

2:53 PM

@LinkBerest I responded to another post suggesting an implementation of pronouns similarly:

user384163

Until recently I was in the closet. I actually regret exposing myself now. For all of the people who are still in the closet out of fear, using gender-neutral language would be an extraordinarily kind thing to do. Furthermore, I choose to wear my pronouns on my sleeve now that the cat is out, but it exposes me further. Many people chose not to correct people until such time as is necessary because it makes the whole thing less of a spectacle. It could also encourage the default he/him unless otherwise stated which could very much be othering for anyone other than cis-men — AGirlHasNoName 1 hour ago

user384163

@LinkBerest that was very kind of you

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName uh. Thing is though - to me a transwoman is a woman for all intents and purposes...

user384163

yes

Journeyman Geek

And in some situations I'd rather use their pronouns because I don't want to misgender them

Cause that pronoun means a lot.

user384163

2:56 PM

I agree. I would rather be called she than they

Journeyman Geek

yup

user384163

But they is better than he when people don't (didn't) know

Journeyman Geek

True! But there's very few situations where I refer to a specific person without knowing a pronoun

BTW, the prefixes cis- and trans- are really confusing to me

user384163

@JourneymanGeek But when I was in the closet I was intentionally obfuscating that

Journeyman Geek

2:58 PM

@M.A.R. eh. "People got your gender right at birth' vs "People got your gender wrong at birth"

user384163

That's what I was getting at

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName well, in meatspace, sure

but on the internet...

user384163

On the internet I did for months

@JourneymanGeek that's the point

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak people have trouble with that concept

user384163

2:59 PM

@JourneymanGeek sadly :[

Journeyman Geek

and there's a lot of ... people causing pain to folks cause they can't accept it

@M.A.R. you of all people (due to cis/trans isomery) should know that the two are antonyms, and trans came first

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