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10:00 PM

what are Klingon pronouns?

@duplode maybe it is better if we stick to del-pls and leave the rest out?

@StephanS please don't go there

Klingon language

The Klingon language (tlhIngan Hol, pronounced [ˈt͡ɬɪ.ŋɑn xol], in pIqaD  ), sometimes called Klingonese, is the constructed language spoken by the fictional Klingons in the Star Trek universe. Described in the 1985 book The Klingon Dictionary by Marc Okrand and deliberately designed to sound "alien", it has a number of typologically uncommon features. The language's basic sound, along with a few words, was first devised by actor James Doohan ("Scotty") and producer Jon Povill for Star Trek: The Motion Picture. That film marked the first time the language had been heard on screen. In all...

@rene k, I understand, i'll just look it up

user194636

@StephanS gagh

Yeah at least that one was mildly amusing and showed some effort. Would have been nice if someone replied in Klingon before it got deleted, but oh well.

10:02 PM

@Aza yeah, just the wording of the comment. I.e. I agree adding it just distracts from the issue by adding too many other issues but "not remotely related"? (note its a minor thing just kinda bugged me - feel free to just shrug and move on)

user206222

i'm not having this argument here

@DavidA let me grab my klingon dictionary and I'll be on the next one

@DavidA their about me is not amusing. They seem to be serious.

user206222

wording on that comment this flies so far under the radar of 'recent problems on mse' that it's just not worth the time to sort out

One of our politicians wrote his resignation letter in Klingon.

10:03 PM

user's gone

Boris Johnson resigned?

user194636

@rene wat

wat

not seeing any news saying that at the moment...

There are people take the Klingon language very seriously.

@DavidA yes

10:05 PM

Even actual linguists

@Sklivvz If you think I'm being passive aggresive - you miss the point that I literally have someone point to criticism of Israel being flagged or shut down (you this time, I just didn't ping you because honestly I didn't even look at the name) any time I bring up the subject in order to take away from my arguments and examples

user206222

y'all really going to argue that the person claiming klingon pronouns, writing 'I feel very oppressed and discriminated against,' is serious

I don't see anyone doing that

@Aza OK but it's not very serious.

@Aza the last part of that message is what makes it an obvious troll.

10:08 PM

Trekkies can sometimes act like a religion, people take it very seriously.

I still like Dr. Who better ;)

I mean, if you know the context and it is clear the asker has some Anti-Semitist agenda, fine; but it is hardly an egregious case, is it?

Not grossly offensive or anything like that, but definitely off-topic.

@LinkBerest I added it as a counterpoint. In no way it diminishes your point. It enriches it with more information. The "passive aggresive" attack is because you are accusing me of intent to shut you down (which you just repeated). Stop it. You are free to say whatever you want, but do not put stuff in my mouth, especially if you are going to associate me with things antisemites say. Clear?

I did not say what I said to justify people doing what you described. What I said is just stating a fact.

user194636

Did someone seriously just suggest Dr Whom is better than Star Trek

user194636

10:10 PM

Where are the flags for that

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Klingon pronouns are actually older than the ones causing the fuss (given how old Star Trek is). That said, they are not English nor do they seek to be English.

@PaulWhite did you just say Doctor Whom?

user194636

@Sklivvz I really did 🤣

Troll

user206222

'neo'pronouns as we know 'em are almost a century old, they are by no means a modern creation

user206222

10:12 PM

they were most recently popularized in the 1970s

user194636

@Sklivvz I don’t deny it

I'm leaving because I just moderated a skeptics flag and need to abstain. Too much temptation.

(also, it's nanna time)

did anyone else see smokey ?

@rene Okay, I'll be more careful from now on.

user206222

*over a century, one of the earliest commonly-used sets of neopronouns originated in the 1890s, apparently, and was in use at the time

10:13 PM

@Cerberus The quote that brought that up was by a (former) London Mayor Livingston:

> “Let’s remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.”

So you can imagine the direction of the body of the question of someone who trolls that stuff on multiple sites.

@duplode yeah, we're not on full SOCVR rules here yet but I'm debating if that helps to at least get some emotion out of the *-pls reports. No harm done.

@Aza English is interesting in that nouns, verbs, and adjectives can be added relatively easily, but pronouns and prepositions are very slow to change (probably given the small number of them and their high frequency).

I'm also moving on from that: there's a question with at least a few decent examples that I linked and I am really not in a mood for this conversation right now (maybe once one fire is put out).

user206222

mmm, pronouns are slow to change in large part because of an old brand of language purism running back hundreds of years. for a long time, the stance of linguists was that English is a pure, unadulterated, organic creature that grows and shapes on its own, and any manual edit is disturbing a natural balance

can we all agree that English doesn't have a good structure, it's kinda a mess of a language, unlike Latin, which is highly structured and all-around a great language

user206222

10:21 PM

couple that with people viewing Queerness as Unnatural and... people weren't really receptive to the idea.

user194636

Is there still an Esperanto SE?

@StephanS English is just like javaScript?

@PaulWhite I think there is, yes.

user194636

user194636

Found it

@rene English is more like Kotlin

10:25 PM

That worse ...

Heck there's still a Windows Phone SE and it recently graduated out of Beta. Ah the phone that could have been

I'm just saying who needs to compiled into both Javascript and Java

user194636

Goodness me

@Aza Can we flag an answer as abusive if it claims that trans people are delusional and need help to cure the delusion, even if the author tries to say it without intentional malice?

@PM2Ring I mean you "Can" no ones stopping you

Journeyman Geek

10:29 PM

@PM2Ring Ugh I know the one

I wouldn't know how to handle that one

I would be inclined to recommend you use your best judgement 😁

@Aza Tell them: Penguins, Dolphins, bonobos, ...

user206222

@PM2Ring I mean I can't give you permission to flag but like yeah that's overtly abusive.

Nature!

@StephanS +1

It's rude at least.

10:33 PM

@Aza Well, I don't think 80% of the people on SE are anti-queer.

I don't want to waste my flags... I am upset reading stuff like that. OTOH, I don't want the author to feel justified in their belief that they're being censored.

user206222

statements like that are outright bigotry even if the person is very nice about it

@JourneymanGeek what would we do without your helpfulness XD

That may play a part for a minority of people, yes, but not most.

user206222

@Cerberus okay

user206222

10:34 PM

@PM2Ring take it down, if you leave it up you just give it oxygen. it's propagating a view that kills trans people

For better or worse, that's actually a somewhat mainstream opinion. Most people just don't talk about it.

user206222

like, that's not me exaggerating

pls-flag rude meta.stackexchange.com/a/335396/334566 Be warned: it's very long, and the "trans are deluded" stuff is near the end.

user206222

ah, hell, that's horrific

Also, pls-flag NAA Link-only, plus a block of text in an image.

user206222

10:38 PM

fucking, +9 on that answer.

user206222

do people know what they're upvoting?

I posted on that thread with the hopes of an actual answer, but I don't think I should have set my hopes that high

@Aza He's playing the "I get discriminated against too" card.

user206222

@PM2Ring the "I get discrimination, too" part is the nicest part about this answer

I don't want to get political, but if Trump can get elected President, than that can reach +9.

Journeyman Geek

10:40 PM

@Aza Eh. I don't really think it's something I would be comfortable piling on flags on

I custom flagged it for mod attention

user206222

@JourneymanGeek are you, serious? this is the most overt transphobia I've seen on MSE to date

Journeyman Geek

@Aza I commented and flagged already

user206222

this is someone literally saying: "trans people are mean, deluded, and lying to you about who they are. they are violating science, pushing themselves on people, and are mentally ill."

user206222

I'm, just going to leave, it's not worth fighting uphill

Journeyman Geek

It makes me deeply uncomfortable sure

10:42 PM

oh hey the pronouns script supports main sites now

@PM2Ring Read it all before follonwing your orders. (and happened to agree)

@Aza 9 people cannot imagine feeling like a woman having XY or feeling like a man having XX chromosomes...

There's all sorts or humans here (and even a few aliens)

@Aza Really? I've seen worse in comments. It's just good old fashioned biological / chromosomal determinism. I guess that gives it more persuasive power to "scientific" types than equivalent religion-based arguments.

0:-)

user206222

the crap in comments is just mean, but this? this is the stuff that kills people.

user206222

this is what's on the minds of the people who assault trans folks in bathrooms.

user206222

10:46 PM

this is why trans people can't get health care.

@Aza Huh? Where???

@Aza Probably not. The silent ones are the dangerous ones...

I don't know much about that, but I do hail from North Carolina, home of the infamous "bathroom bill".

@JourneymanGeek so how's the weather in Singapore?

@DavidA Googling that... (never hared of it)

user206222

you understand this, right? the whole, "trans people are mentally ill, deluded, lying, manipulative, etc., so give them no space and treat them as un-people" thing, right?

10:49 PM

A bathroom bill is the common name for legislation or a statute that defines access to public toilets by gender (restrooms)—or transgender individual. Bathroom bills affect access to sex-segregated public facilities for an individual based on a determination of their sex as defined in some specific way—such as their sex as assigned at birth, their sex as listed on their birth certificate, or the sex that corresponds to their gender identity. A bathroom bill can either be inclusive or exclusive of transgender individuals, depending on the aforementioned definition of their sex. Unisex public toilets...

user206222

I've dealt with a lot of crap the past couple weeks, but this makes me physically sick

@Aza Ok. But IMHO the religious "trans is defying the God given categories of man & woman" types are no less dangerous. And we've had lots of those.

@PM2Ring Down-voted.

I don't get why people care about other people's sexualities. Just let people be.

user206222

@PM2Ring that, too, sure. but even that's vague -- that doesn't tell you what to do about it, it just says "don't believe the liars when they talk about this"

@DavidA Read it already...

FYI: don't try to take your daughter into a female bathroom in SA

10:51 PM

@Cerberus we're social creatures

@Cerberus Yes, but then you're a hellhound and a-sexual yourself, so of course you don't get human's preoccupation with sex neither...

@StephanS We instinctively dislike things that harm our village; but why would anyone care about this?

;-) :-)

@Fabby You don't know what letter I am!

user206222

this is praxis, this is something people take into the Real World, this is literally the outright, flagrant bigotry we are fighting against when we try to hold jobs, or get housing, or get medical care, or even just not be stabbed when walking down the street

Journeyman Geek

10:53 PM

@StephanS I'm in a windowless room 😁

@Cerberus Cerberus? As far as I know there is only one hellhound and it doesn't procreate! (hence the **;-) :-))

@Fabby You don't know that!

I may have puppies in places.

@Cerberus :D

user206222

y'all are just gonna... ignore this, huh

@JourneymanGeek that's ok we'll be your sunshine XD

10:53 PM

Besides, I've heard it said that sex is not only for procreation.

@Aza Who are you talking to?

@JourneymanGeek Did they throw you in the dungeaons with the other dragonas (agoian) ;-)

I have voted it down and stated my disapproval.

The down-votes will shame it.

I even said I did higher up:

I'm just glad that I don't have to treat everything on the internet as life-or-death.

user384163

@Aza Ohh aza. I'm sorry you feel alone

10:55 PM

11 mins ago, by Fabby

@PM2Ring Read it all before follonwing your orders. (and happened to agree)

I'd personally vote it down as unhelpful, but not flag it as it's not phrased as an attack.

@DavidA Wait until I get my "ping of death" dusted off >:-)

user206222

I'm out, have fun with this crap. if anyone actually wants to chat, drop a comment on one of my old posts with a Discord ID and a very clear reason why you want to talk

@Aza I don't think many of us are having fun with this crap.

I remember when WinNuke was a thing. Those were bad days.

10:58 PM

@DavidA Ping of death predates that one...

@Aza I was originally convinced to join Stack Overflow by Amber Yust, a trans woman who works for Google, and who used to be a prominent poster on the xkcd forums. In 2010, Amber had a terrifying experience with an employee of the California DMV in San Francisco, when getting the gender changed on her drivers license.

The DMV employee sent Amber a horrible anti-gay "God will punish you" letter, and passed her contact details onto a fundamentalist group who sent her nasty literature, and a DVD depicting gay people burning in hell, and other gruesome stuff. And that wasn't the first time that DMV employee had abused his position to harass LGBTQ+ people. You can easily find details online. Amber was happy to out herself to get justice on this.

That is horrible.

I'm really glad we don't have that in my country.

Most humans are...

@PM2Ring As an infosec professional with access to sensitive information, this is unacceptable for many reasons.

At least I don't believe so: it would be on the news as a big scandal.

11:00 PM

@Cerberus I'm pretty sure you will find people like that everywhere...

Officials who do that?

I doubt it.

There was someone posting mildly anti-gay flyers, in strangers' letter-boxes.

That was front-page news.

I've only had 2 interactions with Dutch authorities so far...

How long did you spend in prison?

@Cerberus :D :D :D

One was indeed with the police...

How much did you pay to have someone dig a tunnel?

11:02 PM

... but just to have someone have a conversation, not even to deposit a complaint...

What about?

OTOH: I got my BSN in 4 hours!

You know, walking around nude is not allowed in he city.

@Fabby Poor you!

@Cerberus road rage...

They tried to hit me in the face.

Oh, dear.

Where did that happen?

11:04 PM

after 2 weeks of living in NL...

@Fabby It's kinda crazy how many people are allowed to drive

@Cerberus Heemstede

That sucks.

Were you walking, was the other person walking?

Bikes?

Meh... I went for a "verklaring"

@Cerberus Both in cars.

OK.

11:05 PM

Him a big Nissan van, me a tiny FIAT tipo.

The police try to discourage official "aangiftes".

To save themselves from extra work and bad stats...

@DavidA You're not kidding! As you might imagine, Amber is very serious when it comes to other people's privacy. amberyu.st

@Cerberus I wasn't taking "No" for an answer.

Good.

They asked me if I was filing a complaint or not.

I said, before doing that I want this guy's local agent to go have a conversation with him.

11:07 PM

That would be nice.

(No cuts, no bruises, he just tried to hit me)

Did you note his number plate?

I was promised feed-back.

@Cerberus I'm good with numbers.

(=Yes)

AFK BRB

Tavern seems to be in a definite vicious cycle from looking through the transcript

Engel angel is really curious about bitcoin

@LinkBerest as is life

11:11 PM

c'est la vie

Just remember that everyone you flag off the platform is a potential ally. That said, the Q&A format isn't really designed for this sort of thing.

oh no, did Engel Angel reply post a phone number on the internet

Just getting an idea for how bad teacher's lounge must be if it is this magnified

@Cerberus I made the civil servant at the local commune guffaw by asking "What does BSN actually mean, because until now I've been calling it the Bull Shit Number"

>:-) ;-)

And with that, I wish you a Good night!

I would hope that the population would have an above-average capacity for dealing with offense and being less offensive.

11:14 PM

Night!

@DavidA It made him laugh... (because I do speak Dutch, but I have an accent I cannot hide)

@DavidA that's literally an impossible statement

@Shadow you should be sleeping already!

:P ;-)

a population can't have an above-average capacity because averages are judged based on population

I meant with respect to the average SE population, not TL population.

11:24 PM

@DavidA You knew what you were talking about, we knew what you were talking about and we still didn't understand one another 0:-)

based on the people I'm seeing here (several are/were mods): not going to bet on "above average" on this

shutdown -h now

@Fabby I personally prefer poweroff, but each has its use.

Actual conversation this week: User: "I keep trying to shutdown the system and they just restart". Me: "what are you trying?" User: "I keep trying the 'shutdown -f -r' command I found on the internet to force it to shutdown." Me: trying really hard not to laugh into phone

Oh, dear.

Journeyman Geek

11:27 PM

Lol

@Fabby Sleep well!

@LinkBerest Oh, it's civil.

Lots of heated discussions, of course, just as anywhere on the network.

@LinkBerest teach them man shutdown (or Google for kids these days), and hope they get addicted to reading documentation like I did.

@DavidA How do you get someone who is firmly convinced that trans is a delusion, or trans is a sin, to become allies?

@PM2Ring how do you teach a fish to fly?

Maybe by interacting normally. People with queer friends tend to become friendlier.

11:32 PM

@PM2Ring Time and familiarity. Create bonds. Be the person they don't want to disappoint.

@DavidA They did Google it - that's how they found out the '-f -r' flags for forcing it if it doesn't work ;)

Pro-tip: use the poweroff option on a VM to truly shut down the VM if you need to reboot the host.

They gave me this 12-core Xeon system at work but only gave me 256GB of SSD storage. Sucks for VMs.

@Cerberus That works with some people, as I've said a few times earlier. It's rare for it to work on hard-liners, since whatever they see LGBTQ people doing gets rejected or distorted by their perceptual filters. But sometimes it can work, if they have a LGBTQ kid, although such people are far more likely to send the kid to deprogrammers.

^ also for that to work within SE's model would be very difficult (or at least require a long time frame)

@StephanS First, teach the fish to ride a bicycle.

11:37 PM

@PM2Ring on a serious note, respect for people that hate you goes a long way, search Daryl Davis

@Cerberus chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7966119#7966119

to be fair, the user is a good junior developer - just not used to the systems engineering aspects (esp. Linux & VMs). So I found it really funny that he mistook the -r flag.

Ah, getting new batches of developers and saying "you have to migrate your development environments to Java 11 & Linux" and seeing the fear in their eyes - makes going to work worthwhile sometimes ;P

okay, IT side story complete - I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument/discussion

@PM2Ring Yeah, it won't always work, especially if they are extremely religious. But many people can be worn down to increasing levels of acceptation of the years.

@PM2Ring Sounds good.

@StephanS It does. At least, it fosters mutual tolerance. But I think it's unrealistic to expect that people with entrenched anti-trans positions based on strong personal &/or religious beliefs will ever be able to accept trans people.

At least not soon.

The best scenario is if they already know this person before they about his transsexuality.

If they already like and/or respect this person.

11:48 PM

I would go as not ever.

Then their attitude will no doubt deteriorate once they realise it, but it may still be at a higher level than it would have been otherwise.

But, yeah, some people even reject their own children.

Luckily, that's becoming rarer and rarer, at least in many parts of the world.

Positive publicity also helps, I think.

The thing is, social conservatives are almost by definition not interested in rapid social change, but they are willing to accept slow changes.

True.

I love my god-mother for instance, and she is a very accepting person, but she will never accept trans (or gay or lesbian or ...). She is certainly tolerant of them (even kind to the friends I've introduced her to) but its always under the context of "I'm not judging them for their sin, I rather have them in Church with the other sinners".

@Cerberus They may also feel like the trans person deceived them by hiding the trans stuff, so after the coming out they feel the trans person betrayed them.

11:51 PM

@LinkBerest That is better than some alternatives, yes.

@PM2Ring Hmm I suppose.

Which most have accepted as being as close as they can get and good enough in this instance (also if confusing - my god-mother is Christian were I am Jewish hence "Church")

Acceptance is a deeply personal decision.

The first populist right-wing party we had, in the late 90s, had a leader who was a raving gay man.

He said things like, I like to fuck young Moroccans, on public television.

And yet the far-right loved him.

Maybe that helped gay emancipation to some degree, in those dark corners of society that are the most difficult to reach.

Same with Milo Yi...however it's spelled.

Can't be bothered to look it up.

He was shot dead, but by an environmentalist / leftist activist.

@DavidA Oh, that guy.

11:54 PM

Who was that... Pim Fortuyn (or however it's spelled)?

Yup!

The spelling is correct.

For an NC hick, I do follow international news quite closely.

Quite!

Progress will continue.

@DavidA For example, attitudes towards people having sex outside of marriage and children out of wedlock have certainly improved in the last 50 years (in most parts of the Western world).

@DavidA if you mean my statement, I meant "most" as in "most" of my friends have stated such to me

but I agree with the sentiment in general :)

11:59 PM

@PM2Ring Quite!

As have all attitudes regarding sexual behaviour, except paedophilia.

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