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12:00 AM
And they are still improving.
 
@Cerberus And back then, everything except vanilla hetero sex (preferably missionary position) was just lumped into the general category of perversion.
 
There's also the impulse to demand progress right now because lives are at stake. Such cries usually fall on deaf ears unless you can give people a personal reason to care.
 
@PM2Ring Well, I wouldn't put it quite so strongly, but I agree with the sentiment.
 
@Shog9 Sara Chipps is the best Q&A director ever. Nice find with her. Hope you got enough squeaky stress toys to get you through the next few weeks.
Man I go away for a few months and look what happens. You guys are nuts, lol.
 
@PM2Ring for a brief moment, I made a mental note of the fact that there was no SE site about sex. Then I felt this strange sense of gratitude.
 
12:07 AM
@DavidA Ohh sex advice!
That would be nice.
 
^
Pretty sure that's been in Area 51 at least a billion times, lol.
 
@JasonC hey now... Shog9's behavior has been absolutely outstanding during this mess.
 
Hey I'm cheering for him.
 
@Cerberus Yeah, I was over-simplifying a bit. But still, there was often not a clear distinction made between gay & paedophile. On a related note, it wasn't that long ago that anal sex between consenting married partners was illegal in some US states.
 
@JasonC Well, it doesn't have to be interpersonal...
 
12:11 AM
@PM2Ring historically that conflation has been a thing.
 
^^^ Japanese history is pretty interesting in regards to that PM2
 
@PM2Ring I think America has always been more puritan. It's funny how people needed laws about sexual behaviour!
Though not funny-haha.
 
It would be so awkward to be the cop that busted somebody for unapproved anal sex.
I'm so going to get chat flagged.
 
@Cerberus This is not meta chat I was looking for, but sex tips chat?
 
@JasonC .... Actually...
 
12:14 AM
Yeah I would try to keep it "acceptable to all advertisers".
 
It is a bit awkward moment to enter...
 
There is a law against it here
 
I was military police officer when we had to have classes on "don't ask don't tell" & detaining someone for "sodomy". I was also an MP when the executive order came out and we had direction on "sodomy is still illegal" vs. "its no longer illegal to be openly gay in the military"....was not fun
 
They don't enforce it but it keeps some folks happy
 
The world is so complicated sometimes...
 
12:15 AM
@JasonC In Iran, you need four witnesses. So it's hard.
 
luckily, my command fell on the "don't report it" (more because "we don't want to deal with it") side but I remember it being a thing - to include people kicked out of military because "sodomy is still illegal" even though its "no longer illegal to be openly gay" (beyond the few who were high up enough to make the news)
 
@Evil Why not!
 
@Cerberus I spit out my coffee, and I am not even drinking coffee.
 
I'm just acting like a transcript of all this stuff is being sent to my HR department. For all I know, it might be.
 
@JasonC Oh, dear, no serious burns, I hope? But I heard about that in a documentary, I believe. So it's not often that people get arrested for illegal sexual acts.
But there are other ways that people may terrorise those they suspect in Iran.
 
12:18 AM
We should probably change the topic. Sorry for starting it...
 
@DavidA Off topic, but the other day we determined our HR department is a lair 30 stories under our HQ where the alien queen / HR director occasionally lays eggs that hatch into the weird swag they send to new employees. The rest of the HR department exists only as husks wrapped in cocoons on the walls of her cave. The queen spoofs emails from all of them as needed.
We could find no evidence to the contrary.
 
But I guess it's kind of on topic, since a lot of anti-trans sentiment is strongly connected to anti-gay feelings.
 
@JasonC they're not called HR because they're staffed by humans.
 
It is on topic. As long as we don't go off the rails like I usually do.
@DavidA EXACTLY
 
I remember being hired by HR for this wonderful sounding Web developer position because of my knowledge and experience in C# and ASP.Net....only to find out the entire website was maintained with the Bootstrap.js framework.
 
12:22 AM
@LinkBerest points and laughs
 
I have never gotten past hr 😁
 
@JasonC Nice.
@PM2Ring I didn't know we had a topic!
 
@LinkBerest The old bait & switch ploy. At least they didn't get you coding PHP...
 
......no comment
 
Haha
 
12:24 AM
@Cerberus trans-pronoun-phobia
 
Welp, just poking my head in. Night all.
 
I also responded to HR once to work on a very modern system which was a high match to my resume and skillset (at the time: Python, Java, C#).....to find out it was Cobol
highest paying contracting job I ever had too. Also the worst one (it was in 2012)
 
We have a policy in the SO Python room: we don't bad-mouth other languages. One-off posts venting about a language are tolerated, but not sustained rants.
 
I'm not in the SO Python room....am I?
 
@PM2Ring I thought users were discouraged from discussing the hot topic...
 
12:28 AM
wait, where am I?!
 
@LinkBerest who am i
 
@LinkBerest Traditional Cobol, or some strange new version? One of the mods on Physics.SE writes in an OOP language based on Cobol; I forget it's name.
 
@JasonC "a few months" I've been waiting for you to merge a PR for over a year - stop kibitzing and get to work!
 
@StephanS nah, I got a default on my case statement for that: "I am Batman!"
 
@LinkBerest No. :) If we were in the Python room, my name would be blue.
 
12:30 AM
@Cerberus this would render this chat a bit useless? (come for an update, but the feeling is cosy nonetheless)
 
look rlemon isn't over here so I can talk about how great jQuery is
 
good old COBOL-85 (I've seen the OOP one - ugh)
 
@StephanS oh, so this is this kind of the room :/
 
@Evil XD
 
@PM2Ring to be fair, I many times forget to actually leave that room and just close the tab :P ;)
 
12:33 AM
@PM2Ring Italics, you mean?
 
does anyone program android?
 
yes........I say cautiously
 
@LinkBerest A lot of people seem to do that... I've never noticed you lurking there, though.
 
user102937
@Shog9: Can you mark a flag on a comment as valid without deleting the comment?
 
@LinkBerest jetpack
 
user102937
12:34 AM
I can't remember, and I don't have access to mod tools anymore to find out.
 
@RobertHarvey delete -> undelete
 
@PM2Ring name changed recently (also picture)
 
geez, not a mod for a week and you forget everything
 
user102937
Ah, right. Of course.
 
I'm out of whisky. This is a problem.
 
12:36 AM
@Catija Oops! Yes, I mean italics. I'm just a RO in Python, not a mod anywhere. I've been using my phone for so long that I almost forget what the desktop interface looks like. (And I've been awake for 20 hours).
@LinkBerest Ah. That explains it.
 
I used to go by the name in this comment PM 2Ring (without directly linking them)
 
🤣 it’s ok. I forget that mods are blue because I use a userscript that makes them green. Because why not!
 
@LinkBerest Wait, I read your bio. Are you near Tampa?
 
@Evil I suppose so! That was not my opinion, by the way.
 
@LinkBerest Oh, hi! :D
 
12:39 AM
Then all this stuff happened (not the latest thing but some of the earlier stuff and seeing writing on the walls) so I changed my name from my real name to a handle of mine & my picture to one I got in the mountains of my first duty station
 
Wise.
 
@StephanS near-ish (not going to give exact location in public with the amount of throwback people are getting)
 
@RobertHarvey By the way, I read a nice post of yours on Meta, well done.
 
@LinkBerest I bought three servers from someone that kinda matched your bio a little while back......
 
I don't sell servers
I build systems
or teach
 
12:41 AM
oh ok nevermind, it was like a letgo thing
 
or both (currently both)
 
user102937
@Cerberus Which one was that?
 
@PM2Ring I mean who else talks about Cobol? really?! :P ;)
 
:)
 
user102937
COBOL! [retrieves crucifix]
 
user102937
12:44 AM
@Shog9 It's called "vacation brain." Go to Europe for three weeks, do a complete brain-dump.
 
@RobertHarvey The one about merging [bool] with [boolean].
 
I really do like this picture (a photo buff of mine, who made it black and white, got really jealous because I got the perfect pic on accident and he had been trying to get it the whole hike)
 
It's been so long since I wrote in Cobol that I barely remember it. But I guess it'd all come back pretty quickly if I got into it again.
 
Not that bad, it is not QBasic or something at least
 
user102937
One of our top stakeholders just got back from maternity leave. She says she has "baby brain." Nothing is getting done at our workplace.
 
user102937
12:45 AM
@Cerberus Aw, shucks. I thought maybe you were talking about one of my politically-incorrect posts on Meta.SE.
 
@RobertHarvey Just joking, I meant the one about taking responsibility for the feelings of others.
 
user102937
Ah, right. That one.
 
(I looked at your answers with the worst score and picked one of those.)
 
user102937
That one had much less blowback than I thought it would.
 
eh, the language isn't horrible and the money was worth it but if you ever work in a workplace that still uses Cobol....the mentality and software processes were so bad
full v-model waterfall which was really just waterfall....so bad
 
12:46 AM
As in negative answers?
@RobertHarvey Also known as "sleep-deprivation brain"?
 
user102937
As in "You're such an asshole."
 
I see there are no comments.
Just deleted, I assume?
 
It was fun to be the "junior programmer" again in my 30s (cause compared to everyone else there I was certainly a junior)
 
user102937
@Cerberus Hm, that is weird.
 
user102937
And yes, sleep deprivation is a big part of it.
 
12:54 AM
I have one really badly received question but I'm kinda glad it's there
badly received post are just momentary, you get to look back and laugh at them
 
Is joke worth it, if it may be parsed as mean towards some people?
 
In the environment that Meta currently is? probably not
 
Just a sanity check for me, thanks.
@StephanS did you mean the bad badge Q?
 
1:23 AM
@Evil .....yeah..... it was at the start of everything
 
@StephanS sorry, I come out of blue and start annoying questions, but you realize that if you do not cool the mood, you heat it?
 
@Evil I would assume that the opposite of cooling something is heating it
 
1:47 AM
Post was not worth it imnvho.
 
2:08 AM
@Evil I have no desire to suffer twice, in reality, and then in retrospect.
 
@StephanS ok
Anyway, there are walls of text in many topics at meta, and I have a small update question: does current turmoil was split into separate cases?
 
2:27 AM
huh? There are several separate issues you can get an overview on this post
 
@LinkBerest Thank you, I have seen it, just thought there are more angles/cases,
 
user437611
3:14 AM
@LinkBerest Heh, interesting
 
user437611
@LinkBerest Tbh, I don't even understand this anti-Semitism thing. I had the impression that racism is generally strongly tied with socio-economic status and skin-color, but to me Jews look just like normal Caucasians, so perhaps there was some difference in socio-economic status that developed over time? Anyway, I have a lot of reading to do I guess.
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog what did they do?
 
@StephanS They spammed more than one site
 
4:30 AM
@Blue Jewish identity is complicated (based on Halakha) but we are certainly an ethnic group and culture & can be a religious group as well (though not actually required). Chabad has a good answer on "Jewish Race"
Note, the people that hate us tend to have their own definitions which really don't care what ours are so antisemitism can have its own weird justifications that ignore the above
There is also a big difference between a Jewish person and a Zionist but this get conflated a lot. Like a lot, a lot - hence why I hate that people automatically bring it up when you mention this subject.
 
@LinkBerest I actually had no idea they were different, I guess you learn something new every day
wasn't there a Jewish holiday yesterday?
tomorrow is sukkot
this month is full Jewish events
 
user437611
4:50 AM
@LinkBerest I see. By the way, these discriminations seem to have been existent all the way since the Middle Ages. I remember reading The Merchant of Venice, in which there was a stereotype that Jews are money lenders and often very shrewd. So this anti-Semitism stuff doesn't just seem to be a recent thing. I don't know how those stereotypes came about though.
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog no need to ping yawn
 
user437611
@LinkBerest Apparently, Wikipedia has some nice citations on this topic.
 
5:22 AM
In order: Sukkot runs all week (its really fun for the kids too); Yes, there is a lot of research into it but mostly "its easy to blame the outsiders" is the start; I am well aware of the history of this subject both ancient and recent
With that I go to bed
 
5:51 AM
8 messages moved to Chimney
 
6:06 AM
morning
 
user351483
Yarg.
 
maybe for later but...
Wondering, half asleep if it makes sense to not actually have the placeholder text if there's no alt text in images...
 
!!/coffee
 
@202324 brews a cup of Macchiato for @202324
 
@JourneymanGeek Hopefully we won't get resurgence of the issue that Google's image recognition AI was openly racist due to insufficient training data
 
6:23 AM
for android, bottom Navbar or tabs? which one is more appealing?
 
android what? ;p
 
user351483
I thought the point of Android was to have a new and fresh UI experience with every app you use.
 
android phones.....
 
meta.stackexchange.com/a/335340 not sure what to do with this but something needs to be done
opinions?
 
let it burn a little longer
 
6:35 AM
@Magisch At the very least, needs eyeballs
 
there are so many posts I have no idea what to do about
 
but some of the context is less than obvious
 
wait until it's at -1
 
@Magisch when in doubt, skip
 
@202324 And what? Just leave it there
 
6:36 AM
it seems to have 10 upvotes
 
@Magisch just leave it there
 
sigh
 
custom flagged with context
 
it's probably best to wait until it's received negatively
it's not really that well structured either
 
@StephanS unfortunately - that might be too long to wait
 
6:44 AM
he really went downhill after the first paragraph, like I could see the answer being "they're taking one side" but then it goes off about something else. It's very hard to follow
 
They :D
 
there are so many personal attacks all over mse
 
@Magisch :/
 
@JourneymanGeek :D
 
Unfortunately - even if we had a full compliment of mods, stuff is just so crazy we can't really keep up I suspect
 
6:46 AM
I don't know what to do with those. If we disseminate them here there's another one just waiting to come in about how we're censoring
 
@JourneymanGeek This user seems emotionally charged, I feel like if you get rid of it before it's at -1, then we'll make a martyr (e.g. another troll).
 
@StephanS If someone is going to get angry, they will get angry
no matter what we do
 
damned if we do, damned if we don't
 
feels like the winning move is not to play
write off MSE for now and stop reading it I guess
 
Not true either
Basically that lets it fill up with sewage :/
 
6:48 AM
I mainly stay in the chatroom
 
@JourneymanGeek So? We have no leverage to stop it from doing that, and the community at large isn't on our side
all these posts get positive votes
 
@Magisch there's literally no winning stratergy
 
talking about that thread I have an answer there but I feel it's borderline. thoughts on edit?
 
The CMs are busy fighting their own fires, they're not going to have the time to deal with all of this mess
 
I see I used "when" instead of "went" by mistake
 
6:51 AM
@Magisch well - the mods are demoralised. the CMs are overwhelmed
 
So, we can't just flag all of it. Apparently the larger userbase at MSE considers it OK and upvote worthy
 
@Magisch a larger userbase I'm not even familiar with at this point
 
user351483
Is it just me, or is this well received question missing the point entirely?
 
meta posts are really bad lately but I do enjoy seeing Jenayah post about the ads, it seems like they're actual post instead of the type of post where a user is grifting on outrage for rep
 
yup
@Snow Depends on what the point is ;p
 
7:00 AM
@Snow Seems like it. I think what OP wanted to do is reassure people that this won't mean they spend time every day on main finding the correct pronouns
 
wouldn't surprise me tbh if they ended up closing meta at least temporarily this week
 
@Magisch that would be disappointing
 
@JourneymanGeek would it though, I mean what have we actually gotten out of meta the past week?
 
user351483
And after all this, I've still yet to see anyone posting actual examples of someone being misgendered, or taking offense to said misgenderment, or declaring a preferred way of being addressed (which is subsequently ignored).
 
user351483
7:04 AM
@StephanS Feedback
 
@StephanS Its like chopping off an arm, when you need to just pull out the spinter
 
I called this a week ago
by saying that I expect a substantial part of the community to find the CoC Update unconscionable
 
@Snow I think that the misgendering is like the anti-Semitic remarks, most people don't see them because they're removed quickly, then again you're a mod so what do I know
 
But it's not like they can go back. The only way is forward, so what do you do as a company with a userbase that utterly does not represent your values?
 
@Magisch "Its not like they can go back" isn't entirely true
 
7:07 AM
bring back Jeff?
 
:P
 
not that far back
 
@Magisch I guess a good question is - do the current mood and content of the network actually match the goals?
 
@JourneymanGeek real talk between two people who have been here quite a while. None of the CoC changes will be reverted or softened, the only way this'll go is to serve as more "evidence" for the company that none of us are worth listening to or taking into account
you know how this ends. We all do.
 
7:09 AM
@Magisch I'd say the usual thing I say
 
it ends like yahoo answers
 
If we decend into dispair... the bad folks win
 
I don't like to trot out twitter posts but the stance of management is quite clear: Whoever doesn't like it get out. The unclear right now is how they facilitate people getting out
 
@Magisch which is silly cause of the people who are staying
or coming in
And lets put it in other terms.
 
I won't be surprised if a Stack Exchange clone pops up
 
7:11 AM
If you view it from the outside, what does a CoC update at over -1000 score say?
they have to do something
 
This looks like SE is exactly the sort of non inclusive, horrible community they don't want to be
 
right, and what will they do about it. What can they?
 
@Magisch also, what are they willing to do
Consider the 'alternative' FAQ vs the official one
 
It's really hard right now to not just see the futility of it all
 
@Magisch shake off 1000 users
 
7:14 AM
I have no idea how they can navigate themselves out of this mess and save face
 
out of many millions
 
@202324 users who're also most likely to be familiar with SE - and could recommend SE's stuff
and for a self hosted setup - the freebie options kinda work
 
@202324 yeah but these aren't just 1000 users, these are 1000 high ranking users that contribute alot of the content
 
SE's model is very top heavy
there's I would guess 15k or so people that if even most of them leave or stop doing as much the whole model just collapses in on itself
8
 
It should be said that very few users contribute a lot of useful content like you don't get +50k rep with a couple of great posts
I'm slow at typing......
 
7:18 AM
For instance if 20 of the most active people on TWP left there wouldn't be anything left on that site
 
@StephanS shake them off, replace them by the next 1000 high ranking users
 
@202324 I don't think you can do that with a site based on community. Look what happened with Monica, that's one person but it pissed off alot of people
 
@202324 that seems... a little naive
 
@StephanS yeah, not me
 
An experienced user is both knowedable in the subject and the way SE does things
and often spends time fixing stuff for other people
 
7:28 AM
@202324 with that logic you'll slowly decrease the quality of the answers on the site. people with high rep don't have it for no reason
 
actually - I spend much more time moderating and working with the community on SU than answering
 
@Fabby well, you're asking for it, if you go there ....
 
Tim Post sitting in the background
as we talk about the site falling apart
 
 
1 hour later…
8:55 AM
@Magisch You're acting like you can't justify -1000 votes
on a community of 2-3 million users (and that's a modest assumption), 1000 votes is 0.05%
That's easily justifiable as "fringe" to shareholders
 
still a pretty bad look
 
@JourneymanGeek Did your custom flag mention that Mumsnet has a strong connection with transphobia? FWIW, they're currently in the news; Google Mumsnet Flora.
 
@Magisch Depends how you paint it
from the community to the community, it's a terrible look, but I doubt most shareholders look at that angle
for instance, if they did, I reckon they'd have come down like a ton of bricks on the canned answer that came in at first
 
ignore shareholders for a second, this is as much PR as it is an actual update. The PR angle looks really bad
 
also, FWIW, I don't think the CoC updates are bad per se. Timing was awkward, vote brigading and vindictiveness is awkward, and Monica's process issues catalyzed all of it
on its own, in vacuo, I reckon the CoC changes would've been fine for the majority of people
 
8:59 AM
I actually agree with the updated CoC version. I think it's a much smaller deal (effort wise) then people fear it'll be and I agree that it's good for the site(s) after all is said and done
but you can fail at doing the right thing
 
Completely agree with you there, but you can have the right message and the wrong action and it makes the message look wrong
 

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