Tavern on the Meta

duplode

6:00 PM

I mean, nastiness shouldn't be normalised.

Journeyman Geek

Not from anyone no

PM 2Ring

@Houseman That's not so applicable to trans people though, unless they're still in the closet. Unless they pass well, every time they go out their front door there's the chance that some self-appointed gender nazi will insult, ridicule, or physically assault them. Or at least give them nasty looks. This happens even in regions that are relatively enlightened, with a strong LGBTQ+ presence.

user245382

Sometimes the external shield set up by your environment (CoC, office etiquette) will not prevent nastiness from getting through and you have to fall back on your internal shield. Will your internal shield be strong enough to take it?

user245382

@PM2Ring I'm not sure what your point is, could you elaborate?

duplode

BTW @JourneymanGeek I really like your answer to that "brigading" question. Very smoothly played.

PM 2Ring

6:09 PM

@Houseman You said: It seems that a generation of people suddenly appeared on the internet without having the privilege of this experience And I'm saying that's irrelevant because trans people get to experience being harrassed by complete strangers IRL, not just online. What to speak of disapproval etc from family members.

Years ago (on Fidonet) one trans woman told me that when she came out to her siblings & their partners, they were aghast (their parents had tragically died a couple of years earlier, in a car accident). After she transitioned, her family forbade her from calling or visiting them, and told her nieces & nephews that their uncle had been killed in a plane crash. That sort of stuff hurts like hell, and you never fully recover from it.

Mgetz

@Shog9 You do realize almost every major religion does that? That said it puts some boxes around the who is eligible for free blackberries

@Houseman Zero Tolerance happened. Basically where kids used to get into fights or all sorts of things and thus would have to deal with it. Now zero tolerance means that defending yourself suddenly is a crime (sometimes with actual charges for the kid in question).

David A

Zero-tolerance is almost universally a bad idea.

Mgetz

I got into a fight in high school, the only reason the other kid wasn't charged was I refused point blank to be part of that.

and by fight I mean I got beaten up

user437611

@PM2Ring That is a very real problem (moreso in third-world countries like mine) and I've heard many similar cases. I wonder what a viable long-term solution to that would be. The root problem seems to be unawareness. Like a vast majority of people are unaware/uneducated about the scientific reasoning behind why some people are transgender/non-binary or suffer from gender dysphoria.

Mgetz

What we have done in effect in the US is teach our children there is zero margin for error. That there is no forgiveness and moving past

user437611

6:23 PM

For instance, in primary schools, kids are only taught about the two dominant sexes and only much later can grapple the concept of non-binary or queer.

Mgetz

@PM2Ring I have a gay friend (married happily) and his mother keeps not so subtly suggesting he should find a nice girl.

Journeyman Geek

@Houseman I'm not alone though though

And that's important

Even if I fall, i got folks to lend me a hand

user437611

@Mgetz The funny (and sad) part is...the mother is probably doing that in good faith...

PM 2Ring

@Blue People are complicated. We don't have good science to explain why any people are the way they are, whether the conform to a particular societies norms or not. So asking about the scientific reasoning behind why some people are transgender/non-binary or suffer from gender dysphoria isn't particularly helpful. And it tends to paint LGBTQ people as if they have some kind of sickness or defect, rather than simply being part of the broad spectrum of people being people.

user437611

Many of the previous generation people just don't seem to get the concept of LGBT

Journeyman Geek

6:29 PM

@duplode On the contrary. I know just how messed up the situation is 😁

David A

I personally grew up in a very conservative house and still have many of those views. But I was also taught to be nice and to be humble.

I've got way too much impostor syndrome and low self-esteem to judge other people.

user437611

@PM2Ring I get your point. It's certainly not a defect if it's accepted as "normal" and "natural". For instance, if the world primarily had males then being a woman would be a defect. Say, in such a world having a Y chromosome would a defect.

user437611

But we have around 50% of both the sexes, so neither is a defect per se

Journeyman Geek

@Blue ... There's a plot arc in the Orville about that

Joshua

Ugh; time to scrape the entire site and migrate it somewhere else.

user437611

6:32 PM

So I guess we have to normalize the concept of non-binary/ queer in some way

Shog9

@Mgetz does what? Gives away blackberries?

I've nothing against giving away blackberries.

Journeyman Geek

@Blue People are people

PM 2Ring

Sure, we can talk about genes & chromosomes, and the effects of maternal hormones on fetal brains, the range of responses of developing children to various family & societal pressures, etc. Some people are into that sort of thing. ;) But explaining the mechanics of sexuality or gender identity doesn't actually solve the actual practical problem of how LGBTQ people can live in society with respect.

Mgetz

@Shog9 encourages charity. TBH your statement looked more like you were arguing against socalism/communism than anything else.

Journeyman Geek

As long as it doesn't hurt anyone and we don't hurt anyone...

Mgetz

6:34 PM

I think a religion that was very specific on the charity of blackberries would be amusing

Shog9

@Mgetz I don't have anything against socialism either

Journeyman Geek

I don't see a big deal

Joshua

@JourneymanGeek: Sometimes somebody's going to get hurt.

Journeyman Geek

@Joshua So we help them get better

We watch out for each other . Yanno like social animals

David A

@JourneymanGeek A great poet once said "I get knocked down. But I get up again."

Shog9

6:35 PM

I drink the whisky drink

user437611

@PM2Ring I do wonder what else can solve that problem then!

Journeyman Geek

@Blue People grow up 😆

Joshua

We're about 3 to 1 (and more if you count the people who haven't shown up because of the controversy) for overthrowing the CoC and rolling it back.

Journeyman Geek

@Joshua Overthrowing?

PM 2Ring

@Blue So they need to be educated by simply seeing & interacting with more trans people. That's not so likely to happen where trans people don't feel safe revealing themselves. And like I said yesterday:

yesterday, by PM 2Ring

@DavidA Well, "slightly uneasy" is certainly better than outright open hostility. The way to help people overcome that uneasiness is for them to interact with trans people in an environment where trans people are safe. Gradually, they realise that trans people aren't aliens and they become more comfortable interacting with trans people. IME.

Mgetz

6:37 PM

@Joshua at the end of the day, this isn't a democracy so what the majority or even minority want is irrelevant

Journeyman Geek

Most of us are actually more pissed over how a friend and respected member of the community was treated

2

Joshua

@Mgetz: Would you like to put it to the test in the moderator elections.

Shog9

probably worth remembering that a Code folks don't execute is... Worthless. The success or failure of a Code of Conduct isn't determined by votes on meta, it's determined by how folks actually conduct themselves... Every day...

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 :(

And weeeellll

Mgetz

@Joshua as was recently demonstrated Mod elections don't matter

Journeyman Geek

6:38 PM

I'm not seeing the best of folks

David A

@Shog9 But code that never gets pushed to production can in fact be quite valuable.

Shog9

eh

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz That's a talk we need to have when things calm down

Shog9

Write one and throw it away

djsmiley2k

@Joshua hmmmmm over 50% of the uk population who could of voted, didn't vote in the eu referendum, so counting the ones who didn't turn up really doesn't help anymore.

David A

6:39 PM

If it's part of an iterative process.

Shog9

the next one will be worse

djsmiley2k

anyone*

Shog9

the third one though, will be better

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek it's not yet settled, so it's premature anyway

Joshua