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12:37 AM
Reports blocked for 600 second(s) in room 65945 on stackexchange.com.
 
1:00 AM
Oo
 
user310756
1:49 AM
@AndrasDeak don't worry. All those types of snipes have done is to push me out of the network.
 
2:47 AM
Oh that’s a different room
 
3:40 AM
I'm happy to refer to people in whatever way they tell me, but I don't understand why it should be in the question/answer on a technical site when we normally edit out any personal off-topic stuff like "hello, my name is askdjfhga" or whatever. Does this indicate a general change in that policy, or is this an exception? — Don't Panic yesterday
 
4:47 AM
@JourneymanGeek Delete-voted all of them
 
5:33 AM
@Stormblessed on Law.SE most of the site doesn't welcome questions in the first person, mainly because that it's considered "legal advice" but also because personal information doesn't need to be known
@RobertHarvey Hey. still sticking around ?
 
6:23 AM
Okay, I missed happy hour. How did it go?
 
7:18 AM
@Shadow Yay!!
 
7:35 AM
I've been super confused recently. Is it a CoC violation if I stop using all pronouns except I, you, we, they (plural only) and constantly refer to users by their display names?
No one is he, she, they (singular) anymore. No more himself, herself, themself. Problematic?
 
Until someone "states" an alternative, no.
whatever that means
 
If you pretend to be a writer, yes, that avoidance is incompatible with being a writer. If you don't pretend to be a writer, you are fine.
 
7:56 AM
@iBug read this alternative FAQ
 
@rene TL;DR;
How do you guys find time for this?
It's not a really busy time of my life but I can't keep up. At all.
 
user206222
it's real fun making a post, having a productive conversation, and then just kind of... waiting for it to inevitably turn into a dumpster fire
 
@SmokeDetector K
When they spam chem I wonder if they tried to spam elsewhere and ended up on the wrong site.
 
@Aza That feels like the very definition of a toxic environment
 
user206222
8:11 AM
@JourneymanGeek It is.
 
@M.A.R. same :/
@JourneymanGeek that, or anger is still too hot and fresh so people are in defensive mode, i.e. will backlash at anything they don't like, even while normally they'd be much less hostile. (Just a guess, I really can't keep up to date with all the drama)
 
user206222
I just kind of, have to keep asking, like. "Why do all these people hate being asked to use pronouns, so much? Why are so many people fighting this so hard? Why are people making this many arguments to skirt around straightforward requests?"
 
@Shadow People keep throwing fuel into the fire
@Aza They hate being told what to do or else
 
@Aza yes, I have started wondering that as well.
 
user206222
I post in the evening and like, people are pretty good, and then it hits like 2 AM here and suddenly there's this slow rising tide of "pronouns are a Choice," "compelled speech," flat-out othering, "what about Monica," and like. Mmmm.
 
8:14 AM
@JourneymanGeek exactly
 
@Aza Which are.... Almost stock phrases
 
Being asked nicely to do something is one thing. Being told "If you won't do this you'll be suspended" is totally different. It's not to be asked nicely.
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek I don't buy it! People are instructed in plain terms to do, not to do certain things on Stack all the time.
 
user206222
None of those raise objections. This one does?
 
@Aza So... Least my own theory of moderation
There's three ways to do it
 
8:16 AM
And the nuclear fuel is what happened to someone who dared to disobey that new change before it was even out. This explains the amount of heat/anger/fire.
 
@Shadow that, or it's a toxic environment
 
@Aza Yes... because it's against hardwired behaviors.
 
user206222
@M.A.R. Environments aren't toxic on their own. It takes people to make a place toxic.
 
Well, toxic doesn't immediately imply to me that I farted, it just means it's not a pleasant experience to post.
 
@Aza when too many people take part, the only option is shutting down the place.
 
8:17 AM
If there were about three or four neopronouns (instead of... ~15?) stuff would be a little bit easier.
 
Moral suation, social pressure and force
 
@Aza A lot of people. Individual voices in themselves don't contribute much to it.
 
Like they do with toxic chat rooms.
 
@Shadow true. Let's assume for a moment that heat/anger/fire hadn't been there? What would the scenario have looked like then?
 
SE went straight to force as most people saw
 
8:17 AM
@rene anger/heat/fire
 
There's an attempt at a chilling effect
 
@M.A.R. HAF sounds better
 
That could be the next Avengers
 
But... No guidence
 
@M.A.R. that is an hopeful outlook ;)
 
8:18 AM
@Shadow no
@rene yes
 
@M.A.R. maybe
 
@Shadow Mayhaps
 
@M.A.R. Mayhem
 
Being on fire is the new default then?
 
8:18 AM
@Shadow Too WAGy
 
Hair on fire
 
Cool
 
@M.A.R. no u
 
@Shadow NO UR FACE
 
@M.A.R. nose
 
8:19 AM
If nothing else it got made about a person not an action.
Then it got muddied more
 
@rene you mean if they wouldn't have kicked Monica the way they did? IMO the change would still get a negative score, at least -200 net score, and people still object but... with much less anger/hatred towards the company.
And that's something SE could have find a way out from, but now.... really hard to have hope things will get back to normal.
 
@Shadow Actually I think it would have gone a lot better if they started with a consultative process
 
user206222
I'm really skeptical of how much Monica's termination actually contributed, here. People get angry about trans people's pronouns, all the time, not just on Stack Exchange. At worst her termination drew more people's focus to MSE.
 
user206222
Like, these harmful opinions people are harboring... wouldn't have been any different, and the conflict would still have been there.
 
user206222
There's something about using trans people's pronouns that makes people angry, by itself.
 
8:24 AM
@Aza it made it a much bigger issue
I'm ok with using the correct pronouns
I do my best to explain why
but
 
@Aza Well, it doesn't have to directly do with it. IME, busier places on the internet are exponentially more likely to get heated. Thrice the traffic definitely affects the perception.
Like, does anyone even remember the MIT drama?
 
Folks are just too angry
 
@JourneymanGeek but
 
and erm... other stuff I'd rather not talk about here
 
Well, I'm angry, and regardless of my background, I find using someone's pronouns common courtesy, although I admittedly have never encountered a situation when I was asked to call someone a zem or whatever.
 
8:26 AM
Nope
 
@JourneymanGeek yeah yeah, it all goes back to when dinosaurs used SE :p
 
and outside having to remember (and I think a proper solution is planned... ) its not onerous in most cases
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek I don't think it's fair to talk about this, is the thing. Like, yes, Stack definitely made the problem worse, but it shouldn't be a problem at all, and that's on people more than anything.
 
@Aza Individual people are reasonable
mobs are not
 
user206222
Shifting blame onto Stack removes the focus of the conversation from people who harbor vitriol.
 
user206222
8:27 AM
@JourneymanGeek Mobs are always made up of individual people. These are thoroughly reasoned, rationalized posts that fan the flames.
 
@Aza I think our preferred approaches to this differ.
 
My take is it's all at best a red herring to discuss the validity of the stance. People are upset about its apparent unanimous slash inconsistent enforcement in the future.
 
user206222
@M.A.R. Ehh, a lot of people are absolutely upset about the stance itself.
 
@Aza fact is its an unmanagable mess of people who are angry. And conflict is fuelled so the reasonable folks are just too tired to do anything.
And if actually getting the bigots to come out and say it was a goal, it happened. Then what?
not all of them are just going to quit
Some of them are going to stick around and post reasonable seeming things.
 
user206222
You've... gotta start mod messaging and suspending.
 
user206222
8:30 AM
(inb4 "coercion," "censorship," etc.)
 
@Aza As a mod? I'm demoralised.
 
user206222
I mean, not you specifically-- kind of a hypothetical "you," the "You" of Stack Exchange.
 
I'm scared to step in that mess. I'm tired. If I did step back up, I don't know what fresh crisis someone creates.
 
@Aza I know, but having the thing derail into a discussion about the roots and philosophy doesn't help with anything. What most of us can agree on, and is worth discussing, is why such distracting info needs to be on an SO post.
Practical issues.
 
Someone just let the wolves in with the sheep. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be a sheepdog.
 
8:32 AM
There are better venues for discussing the whole thing.
 
user206222
@M.A.R. I haven't seen any case examples of this, so the whole discussion is hypothetical. Once we see people do it, then we can start to talk about the merits of different approaches.
 
@JourneymanGeek Dog proverb?
 
Sorry. Its been stuck in my head a while
and that's what this situation feels like.
 
@Aza yeah well, I wish.
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek I mean, I'm definitely not gonna say your fear's unreasonable, but... someone has to do it, you know?
 
8:33 AM
-85
A: Would a note about preferred pronouns qualify the same way as "thank you"?

George StockerThis is one of the few times where as moderators we're required to 'make a pronouncement from on high' about this. I don't relish this, and I wish there had been discussion on this point before Stack Exchange made this rule, but here we are. Regardless of how we feel about this new rule, the gu...

 
@Aza On the other hand
If we hadn't had the distraction
if we had a core of folks onboard who're happy to work on, and with folks to get the stuff we needed
 
@JourneymanGeek Dog proverb.
 
You can't run a community just by kicking out everyone who remotely dosen't share your values.
 
user206222
You can run a community by following a set correctional path for people who create a hostile environment.
 
user206222
That correctional path ends in removing people from a space if behavior guidance fails. Again: not for 'not sharing your values,' but for creating a hostile environment.
 
8:36 AM
“hostile”
 
@Aza ooh, you have me on a bit of a dangerous path for myself
I'd say this though.
this would have to be anyone
and I'd rather have the ability to remove the things fuelling hostility than remove people
then work on getting people less hostile
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek That's what the correctional path is for.
 
user206222
Like, we're still in the nascent step, where removing posts and increasing moderation presence is probably correct. But eventually, it's going to become a 1:1 issue between moderator and user.
 
@Aza uhm. In this case though - there's guidence that's messy (sorry CMs) and confusing, there's a few groups of folks taking the religious objection root...
@Aza Assuming we have folks to moderate.
there's two issues here.
This became deeply political
 
@Aza I think a factor you are underestimating is the emotional attachment to language. I've no issue with the requests in English, but I fear that when the discussion will be brough to French Language, I'll find myself finding some requests unreasonable for just language reasons.
 
8:39 AM
and its just so tangled I'd personally have no idea where or who to start with.
 
user206222
This always was political. And in political issues... keeping the peace protects the status quo. Moderating for political issues is a new skill set and a new style of moderation.
 
user206222
That's understandable, to be honest.
 
@Aza and yet - this is what conflict looks like
you can't have conflict and not have toxicity
 
I will watch as you gloriously run in circles.
 
user206222
@AProgrammer Non-English languages are a more complicated topic. I'd need to understand what French queer people want, and I'm not well connected enough with the French queer population to understand or speak for that. So I don't know if I could rightfully say that this guidance should be applied across languages a priori.
 
8:41 AM
Cardio helps heart.
 
@M.A.R. chasing my tail?
@Aza erf. I don't even want to touch the linguistic can of worms.
I'd not know half of what to do in my own language outside the more common situations.
 
user206222
I... maybe the piece that's missing here is an example of a community that is open, warm, accepting, has little to no conflict, and is generally positively aligned on trans issues. Because those communities do exist.
 
(ignorance, not unwillingness. )
 
user206222
I think a lot of people just don't have an example for, "we could make our community more like that one, and we'd be happier for it."
 
@M.A.R. are you on Discord as BlindSnow? (Someone by that name just joined the meta room and claimed to be you, just wanna double-check)
 
user206222
8:45 AM
There definitely seems to be a common perception that pushing for this necessarily means we'll just be... embroiled in conflict, forever, indefinitely and inescapably. That's not true, but I'm wondering how many people have actually seen/experienced a community like that.
 
>_>
@Aza I used to be in a community that was mostly open, and accepting, super chill with... anyone...
 
As I've said before, asking for neopronouns is a bit too much for a lot of people who'd otherwise be sympathetic to the CoC changes. Sure, it's not the only issue, but a lot of posts have mentioned it. Perhaps some of those are merely using it as an excuse to hide their deeper unacceptance of trans people. But I don't think that's generally true.
 
and... was occationally a toxic maelstrom of people trying to be boss.
 
@Zoethetransgirl YES. For God's sake
 
Thanks. Sorry
 
8:47 AM
Naaaah
 
The only thing with this whole ordeal im against is people abusing this as a way to attack those who have a differing opinion. It’s just so hypocritical to me. I feel I have to stand up for them.
 
I have better things to be frustrated about
Like the fact that @Kevin hasn't mehhed in quite a while.
@KevinB Axes don't really have stable standing positions
 
user206222
Ah, back to "difference of opinion." Gonna just, skip past that.
 
@KevinB and... that's pretty much the definition of conflicts ;)
 
I'd advise against standing
 
user206222
8:48 AM
@JourneymanGeek Sincerely -- do you think it can be done, here?
 
@Aza Meta? difficult
and I'd pass on the bullshit posturing
@Aza I hate to say "start with the top down" but if you have folks willing to take the long term route, and don't suddenly have to deal with things going out of control
 
fact remains, this is a community of people. We have to be able to deal with differences without pushing people away. Not every thing has to be do it my way or leave.
 
if the community especially the most vulnerable part trusts them
and they have support.
maybe
But I see very little of that right now
 
user206222
There's... a deep conflict in what you're saying that is kind of at the heart of this issue.
 
user206222
The people you're talking about are actively being hurt, and can't wait.
 
user206222
8:51 AM
The long-term route, in this case, just leads to an ongoing harm, hoping for a better future where that won't happen.
 
@Aza And yet - look where the quick path got us
we can't fix years of decay overnight
We can't even fix 2 weeks worth of it
 
Causing harm on everyone else in the process is unacceptable.
 
user206222
It got us progress. It broke the ice on a long-standing problem.
 
Has it?
There's also a conflict on what you say
meta is toxic. More toxic than it has been
 
user206222
It definitely has. You can't fix a problem like this if it's never acknowledged, never seen.
 
8:52 AM
This place hasn’t improved in 3 years. It’s o my gotten more and more divided.
More and more hateful
 
user206222
Now that we can see the mess, out in the open... we can talk about how to clean it up effectively.
 
@Aza so... now what?
@Aza and there's no janitors left.
there mess seems to be growing and smelling worse
 
user206222
Now comes guidance on enforcement. CMs will either have to step in and show moderators how by example, or appoint people who are able to do that.
 
@Aza The xkcd forums are pretty good for LGBTQ+ stuff. It's common, but not compulsory, to have pronouns in your sig. There's a great LGBTQ+ safespace thread, and a separate thread for people who want to be educated on LGBTQ+ issues. Sadly, the xkcd forums got hacked and are currently offline, otherwise I'd be able to link to some useful posts from those threads.
 
user206222
It's a learning process, no community cleanup like this is ever easy.
 
8:53 AM
@Aza the CM's are also probably overwhelmed
 
user206222
Assuredly.
 
We also have folks who arn't actively hostile, and hopefully not part of the problem ... getting scared off
 
user206222
I have experience with cleanups like these. It is possible with the number of people they have on hand, absolutely.
 
user206222
I guarantee you it can be done.
 
So.. take charge.
You don't need a diamond
There's still enough of a community to fix
 
user206222
8:55 AM
I am
 
At this point I'm going to try what I can to keep stuff from getting worse, trying to talk to good confused people..
 
user206222
I'm, at minimum, doing as much of my part as I can manage, to help clean up.
 
I don't have the energy to run around meta, telling folks I feel could be a core of a better meta to hang on any more
 
user206222
That's sincerely good,
 
It just feels like a power grab
 
8:57 AM
Its a failure I guess but, I think we'll survive if we don't have another bomb dropped on us
 
user206222
Sincerely, wherever you can find a place to help, I'm sure it's appreciated. I'm not coming after you, by any means.
 
None talken
 
user206222
You're doing a lot and it's seen.
 
I do think you're doing what you feel is right
 
A forceful takeover, rather than a movement.
 
8:57 AM
I am angry but its directed elsewhere.
 
user206222
I hear that, @JourneymanGeek.
 
and I suspect when the novelty if this dies down
we'll be in a easier place to actually rebuild
 
user206222
I think that's probably true, too. I'm hopeful for that, sincerely.
 
And I hope its seeon
too many distractions to the real issues ><
 
user206222
yeah, I hear that, for sure .-.
 
8:59 AM
@KevinB No, it really isn't. But I agree that the way it's been delivered by SE, and the way a lot of people are reading it, and responding to it, may make it appear like a takeover.
 

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