I'm just trying to understand how, by what I understand of @Aza's explaination, that I'm suddenly transphobic.

Because to me, a phobic, is someone who actively, and externally expresses a dislike/disgust at something.

@djsmiley2k being phobic internally is enough

hmmm, I hope it's not me who's getting flagged. If I need to stop, just say so.

phobia = fear ?

*phobia has always meant an aversion to, or discomfort around, as a baseline. It extends into hatred and violence.

@Paul technically. But think homophobia.

That's an incredibly dangerous road to go down.

@AndrasDeak or xenophobia

It's come to also mean discomfort or hostility.

@djsmiley2k not crime. Just label. If you silently hate gay people you're still homophobic

That's why "I'm fine with it as long as they don't do it around me" is a line that is not as supportive as it might sound.

Nobody would know, but that doesn't change the fact

I'm scared of bears but don't hate them.

So phobic itself might be the wrong suffix.

I simply don't 'understand'

@DavidA exactly my point.

@djsmiley2k technically yes. But what we're talking about is phobic actions

But you just said the thoughts in my head matter, even when I don't act on them.

@DavidA mis- could be better, like misogyny or misanthropy, but the word itself is mostly irrelevant

semantic I think @Aza. I'm concerned if that is the term that gets used, it gives the wrong indiciation.

@djsmiley2k let's remember the direct question that brought this up

@Aza hmmm, until the media pick it up.

@djsmiley2k no, I said your thoughts make you what you are. But CoCs are about how you behave.

If the light is off in a room with red walls the wall is still red

That's where the term got used, and David A hit the nail on the head

@djsmiley2k then we disagree

There's no way to beat around that, we can't go "nah nobody is, everyone's fine, everything's fine".

@AndrasDeak and so the fun of sematics occurs

@djsmiley2k the reason why this is irrelevant is that not only "homophobes" can act in a homophobic way. There's no club card. What matters is actions.

And there's no difference if you're saying something exclusionary, whether or not you are "otherwise" "a homophobe"

I mentioned that one in chat a while ago, but thought it would be in bad taste to link it.

I'd vote that one down on the basis of being in complete bad faith.

@Aza probably worth flagging one of the answers first/separately

This one meta.stackexchange.com/a/335277/135565

@JourneymanGeek the question as a whole is the problem

@doppelgreener If the question goes you can't flag the answer

@JourneymanGeek I'm fine with that

Lol. Technically bot accounts should identify as "it" and the Community user a plural "they" (or perhaps we).

@Aza I'm typically inclined to downvote that but erf. Strange times

I was misunderstood and then kicked. Good Job.

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

@Aza Oh. In terms of signal? I know it's bad faith but my inclination is to show it's unacceptable over burying it

@Paul No you were not

Show it's unacceptable by burying it

@Paul please drop it

Actually seeing the question massively downvoted might be more useful than deleting it. It would show to everyone else that it's an unacceptable line of inquiry.

If someone comes into your space being racist you don't sit down with them and go "well I just disagree", you kick them out and remove their crap

So as to not give it a platform

@doppelgreener maybe I'm stuck in civil/better times mindsets. Downvotes kick it off the front page and sends a message

Deplatforming indicates lack of legitimacy and condemnation. Giving them the platform accepts their viewpoint as legitimate and worth consideration.

That said asking for flags is ok

@JourneymanGeek Would you settle for the same if someone was being racist on MSU?

@doppelgreener msu downvotes mean nothing

I think a more pertinent question might be what I'd do as a MSE mod

Cause I would not prefer "yep, downvoted off is fine and sends a good message" because it sends the message the moderators consider this behaviour legitimate and valid entries into the community discussion

And I'd concede there

That part is why it's important it get removed, not just sit around for downvotes while it magnetises activity and support

There would be two users suspended and I'd be happy to deal with anyone unhappy with me

The problem in this is

we can't decide who SE will deplatform

@Aza I wish we only had a dozen flat-out transphobes

outside of flaggin r/a we're flat out of luck

@Magisch technically flagging does do that with critical mass

It also doesn't take much rep to upvote.

@Aza Factor in that the worst people will flock to a post like that

No, it's bad

@Aza Gone

@Aza well that or people who are just enjoying the drama

Which is just as bad

@Aza eh

Anyway, I'm on mobile, can't unpack this

@Aza some people just want to watch the world burn.

@Aza They don't even care

Worse? Maaaaaybe. Dumber. Hell yes

@DavidA Well, "slightly uneasy" is certainly better than outright open hostility. The way to help people overcome that uneasiness is for them to interact with trans people in an environment where trans people are safe. Gradually, they realise that trans people aren't aliens and they become more comfortable interacting with trans people. IME.

@Aza dead

→ 34 messages moved to Chimney

And the user changed their name to a trollish one :]

@Zoethetransgirl just raise a flag

way ahead of you

:/

@Aza hm. That's a surprise

The person

@JourneymanGeek Not really

"it does come at the cost of comfort in a space" For sure! OTOH, as Leslie Feinberg explains in Transgender Warriors, without those trans people who are brave enough to make themselves visible in unsafe spaces we'd still be stuck in the dark ages. But we certainly should not expect trans people to put themselves into situations where they're likely to suffer emotional or physical abuse.

I've stumbled over that user multiple times, and whether it's me or someone else, they've been rude if the person/people disagreed. I pushed it to the point where I got "blocked" by the user (erased from the HTML). In addition to outright toxic comments, I'm not surprised they did this.

I was really touched when the mod called2voyage outed herself as trans in the middle of this fiasco. That takes a lot of courage!

@PM2Ring Stuff like this pushed me to also be Out as well.

@Zoethetransgirl the user has other issues sure...

It's awesome to see happen.

:/

I don't know what you guys think, but perhaps it's best not to discuss particular users if they are not present? No matter their behaviour, stances or what not?

@Bart eh I guess

:7966168 And that all meta users are toxic, disagreement is toxic, downvotes should be abolished, and generally acts on it in a toxic way.

@Aza It's a brilliant book, even if it is a bit dated now. I discovered Transgender Warriors in my local library. The look on the librarian's face when I borrowed it was priceless. :)

I propose to sunset the term "transphobia" and instead describe specific objectionable behaviors as that has a greater chance of conveying the intended message.

(as well as similar user-centric terms)

We can't adequately talk about the specific objectionable behaviours if we're not allowed to use the term transphobia in conjunction with discussing them.

@Bart Fair point. It's general policy in many chatrooms that it's not allowed to criticize individuals who aren't there to defend themselves. Criticize the behaviour, not the person.

Let's not delete as abusive content that might have been posted in good faith...

I'm not convinced it was meant as a troll question

@JohnDvorak The problem is that crap magnets attract crap, and it doesn't take long for it to reach critical mass and explode into an abuse fest.

Do the thing: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335283/…

clearly not constructive

@PM2Ring wouldn't downvotes suffice to avert snowballing?

@Aza Gone. He tried the same thing a couple of days ago, before the CoC was released.

@Aza I closed it against the FAQ, thanks to @DavidA for providing the link to the answer so it is now deleteable, in case users are open for that

That question literally had an exact answer in the FAQ.

@JohnDvorak Not really. And a lot of the crap is posted as comments which can't be downvoted. And when those comments get deleted, the comment writers react in outrage, powering them to go and write more crap comments.

facedesk

I think I keyed in my new work system password with capslock on

and tried to log in 3 times and failed

which one?

no 20k here :(

only sadness

Oh I CAN FIND ONE!

sorry, just got into work out of touch.

@Magisch The OP of meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335283/… is the guy I mentioned a few days ago who posted his anti-trans proclamation as a question.

yea, it's gone and he got suspended for a week

and erf

tbh I didnt even read all of it. After the first sentence I erfed a R/A flag and closed it

while I personally don't worry as much - this is one of those days I wish delete votes were anonymousish

let's drop the discussion on specific users once their case is dealt with. This is not Tavern on the Blame

@rene Eh actual problem I once had

as a mod - sometimes folks react badly to getting posts deleted

yes. I react badly all the time

I'm tempted to just go nuclear on these people and cite the fact that something like 99% of the posts don't even use pronouns (and is gender-neutral). The CoC itself can be trivially followed by anyone with a modicum of decency. But I think someone already did that.

@rene Understood. I didn't want to post that user's name here the other day. I only said that stuff because Magisch did want to find the old deleted question.

@PM2Ring thanks for your cooperation, appreciated

I do wonder though the sheer amount of concern over trolling scenarios so unlikely and clearly transparent strains belief that it is good faith concern

the front page is full of this, there are 10+ answers on the faq you link to raising this, and there are numerous comments citing this, yet you need another discussion on exactly the same thing? why

Folks these days - quite legitimately - have little trust in the company, which is why they don't want a CoC that can be used as a beating stick against them

@Magisch good

@JohnDvorak of all the legitimate concerns about the change this is the reddest of herrings...

@Aza uhm. Actually - you're both right? ;p

Most of us have no idea what's the right thing to do here

Most of us are also fairly unprepared to deal with it

Its not really an excuse but...

Trial by fire isn't very inclusive...

@Aza or one. Technically :/

@JohnDvorak ah, but that's kinda the thing.

@Aza technically once you know what's happening, it clearcut what to do

though, I'd totally want a modified version of the standard flag

I mean mod message

When this drama first started to unfold, after the Monica sacking, I was a little hesitant to flag the anti-trans comments, figuring that if we hide all the evidence of transphobia then people would complain "What's the big deal? I don't see any transphobia!". But I now realise that there's no shortage of evidence, and when it appears we need to zap it ASAP.

@Aza eh, I actually think that fixing systemic issues with that does a lot with getting folks onboard

Most of the turmoil on MSx is against SOinc, not against trans people

I'm totally going to disagree with you on conflict being the only productive route :/

(this is geek btw! I know. Lots of new faces.)

@Aibobot wut? You're not a bot?

@Aza and a different way to change the status quo

@rene woof?

lol

So... Aibo is a bot, but Aibobot is not?

I'll tell the story of the office sock when things are calmer

Never did get one of those. They cost a fortune.

@Aza so - two different fronts. Its just as important to win over people on the fence as get rid of the nasty ones

@Aza and I feel a lot like there's a lot of the focus on the latter

and that makes it hard to do the former some times

and its hard to tell folks from what would be a position of previledge 'fight less hard because folks feel like its bullying"

@PaulWhite Even if SE introduced a new CoC under ideal conditions we'd see a transphobic response. But they certainly made it worse by the way it was done, and how the CoC & FAQ has been worded. So the transphobia is mixed with & inflamed by general mistrust of SE, people not being sure how mods will enforce it, people not wanting to be told how to write, etc. Also, it's obvious to the community that the mods & ex-mods aren't presenting a united front re trans issues.

which ... is a thing I'm having trouble with sometimes

@Aza open war is about the worst way to educate people about one's legitimate concerns

@DavidA It's not a lot to be forgot, Aibobot is not a bot. The tot has not a watt to spot, for Aibobot a bot is not.

@Aza sure but there's folks who're good at... the calmer way of winning folks over too

@Aza and... in the current situation, its a tide of those

(I've had to walk away from a situation where I sympathise with folks, but am utterly fed up with their attitudes)

@Aza there's also renovation to consider ;p

@Aibobot renovation is what you get from putting breakers and builders together

@doppelgreener maaaaybe

@Aza .... my floor is laid on old floor

my dog sounds like he's wearing taps

and at some point if that old floor is rotten, it'll need to be removed and something will need to be put down in its place

but right now

the situation feels like lots of tearing down

and people throwing bricks through my windows

@Aza just the tiles though. To the community it seems like the entire house is going down.

@Aza but the broken glass!

I'd rather just have the old ones politely removed!

@Aza it feels like fbueckert's solar panels right now

The contractor has gone off for a cup of tea, we don't know when they're back...

Now I'm totally wondering if I might have run into aza in some of the stranger parts of the internet I used to be in XD

@Aza "we don't care about casualties. We have plenty enough replacement people and guns."

(used to hang out in a few more... spirtually inclined communities, indirectly)

So - here's a fun problem

that ought to be a meta post so people outside here know

buuut

how do we actually do that witjout mentioning

@Aza well, if faileas or geek rings a bell

@Aza tiny parts of stranger odd communities...

so unlikely ;p

Ok, phew

this world is not too small

(cause outside people I know there, there would be, eh 20-30 people total on those old irc channel)

@Aza eh, I'd do it

just trying to work out how best to do it without literally mentioning attack helicopters

It would!

almost as strange as someone from lords of the battlefield popping up here

(my first moderation role ever!)

Nope

Until someone goes 'wait. That geek? Wolf Ava?'

@Aza hmm

Its not fun if it's easy

It's back

But it also something that needs a huge degree of tact

besides, I have a few thousand points of reputation I hardly deserve :/

worth burning it for a good cause

Well - if I talk specifically of attack choppers as an identity, and why its bad, it gets a platform no?

Or just ask not tell them to flag

and that folks in the tavern are willing to help

erf. We're getting pretty close to the point where I'm unhappy to just stand by though

goodnight!