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11:00 AM
I'm just trying to understand how, by what I understand of @Aza's explaination, that I'm suddenly transphobic.
Because to me, a phobic, is someone who actively, and externally expresses a dislike/disgust at something.
 
@djsmiley2k being phobic internally is enough
 
user206222
 
hmmm, I hope it's not me who's getting flagged. If I need to stop, just say so.
 
phobia = fear ?
 
*phobia has always meant an aversion to, or discomfort around, as a baseline. It extends into hatred and violence.
 
11:01 AM
@Paul technically. But think homophobia.
 
That's an incredibly dangerous road to go down.
@AndrasDeak or xenophobia
 
It's come to also mean discomfort or hostility.
 
@djsmiley2k not crime. Just label. If you silently hate gay people you're still homophobic
 
That's why "I'm fine with it as long as they don't do it around me" is a line that is not as supportive as it might sound.
 
Nobody would know, but that doesn't change the fact
 
11:02 AM
I'm scared of bears but don't hate them.
So phobic itself might be the wrong suffix.
 
I simply don't 'understand'
@DavidA exactly my point.
 
@djsmiley2k technically yes. But what we're talking about is phobic actions
 
But you just said the thoughts in my head matter, even when I don't act on them.
 
user206222
Is this a semantic issue or a philosophical one?
 
@DavidA mis- could be better, like misogyny or misanthropy, but the word itself is mostly irrelevant
 
11:04 AM
semantic I think @Aza. I'm concerned if that is the term that gets used, it gives the wrong indiciation.
 
user206222
Don't... worry about that? It's a standard term in common use, it has a meaning that can be elucidated.
 
@djsmiley2k let's remember the direct question that brought this up
19 mins ago, by David A
If being slightly uneasy among trans people makes one a transphobe, then a huge portion of the world population is transphobic.
 
@Aza hmmm, until the media pick it up.
 
@djsmiley2k no, I said your thoughts make you what you are. But CoCs are about how you behave.
If the light is off in a room with red walls the wall is still red
 
That's where the term got used, and David A hit the nail on the head
 
11:06 AM
@djsmiley2k then we disagree
 
There's no way to beat around that, we can't go "nah nobody is, everyone's fine, everything's fine".
 
@AndrasDeak and so the fun of sematics occurs
 
@djsmiley2k the reason why this is irrelevant is that not only "homophobes" can act in a homophobic way. There's no club card. What matters is actions.
And there's no difference if you're saying something exclusionary, whether or not you are "otherwise" "a homophobe"
 
user206222
Abusive flags, please. Obvious bait, obvious trans hostility.
 
I mentioned that one in chat a while ago, but thought it would be in bad taste to link it.
 
user206222
11:12 AM
It needs to be flagged down. I'm not linking it for popcorn.
 
I'd vote that one down on the basis of being in complete bad faith.
 
@Aza probably worth flagging one of the answers first/separately
 
@JourneymanGeek the question as a whole is the problem
 
user206222
The question should be flagged and that answer should also be flagged.
 
@doppelgreener If the question goes you can't flag the answer
 
user206222
11:15 AM
@JourneymanGeek The whole question needs to be removed, I'll follow up to make sure the issues with those answers aren't ignored.
 
@JourneymanGeek I'm fine with that
 
Lol. Technically bot accounts should identify as "it" and the Community user a plural "they" (or perhaps we).
 
user206222
@DavidA Wrong time, wrong place.
 
@Aza I'm typically inclined to downvote that but erf. Strange times
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek This particular content has been used to abuse the crap out of trans people time and again, and if someone's using it in this way I promise you that's all they're trying to do.
 
11:17 AM
I was misunderstood and then kicked. Good Job.
 
1 message moved to Trashcan
 
@Aza Oh. In terms of signal? I know it's bad faith but my inclination is to show it's unacceptable over burying it
@Paul No you were not
 
Show it's unacceptable by burying it
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek See our above conversation -- this serves to the legitimize the discussion.
 
user206222
Please, please deplatform this crap. It's not acceptable to make these kinds of arguments., period end
 
11:19 AM
@Paul please drop it
 
Actually seeing the question massively downvoted might be more useful than deleting it. It would show to everyone else that it's an unacceptable line of inquiry.
 
If someone comes into your space being racist you don't sit down with them and go "well I just disagree", you kick them out and remove their crap
So as to not give it a platform
 
user206222
 
user206222
(It got kind of buried.)
 
@doppelgreener maybe I'm stuck in civil/better times mindsets. Downvotes kick it off the front page and sends a message
 
11:21 AM
Deplatforming indicates lack of legitimacy and condemnation. Giving them the platform accepts their viewpoint as legitimate and worth consideration.
 
That said asking for flags is ok
 
@JourneymanGeek Would you settle for the same if someone was being racist on MSU?
 
@doppelgreener msu downvotes mean nothing
I think a more pertinent question might be what I'd do as a MSE mod
 
Cause I would not prefer "yep, downvoted off is fine and sends a good message" because it sends the message the moderators consider this behaviour legitimate and valid entries into the community discussion
 
And I'd concede there
 
user206222
11:23 AM
This post has 11 upvotes, and that's abhorrent.
 
That part is why it's important it get removed, not just sit around for downvotes while it magnetises activity and support
 
There would be two users suspended and I'd be happy to deal with anyone unhappy with me
 
The problem in this is
we can't decide who SE will deplatform
 
@Aza I wish we only had a dozen flat-out transphobes
 
outside of flaggin r/a we're flat out of luck
 
11:24 AM
@Magisch technically flagging does do that with critical mass
 
user206222
@AndrasDeak It's 11/22 and at least a few flags for downvotes, so probably 11:18 outright virulent transphobes. That sounds about right, right now.
 
It also doesn't take much rep to upvote.
 
@Aza Factor in that the worst people will flock to a post like that
 
user206222
It's not good, no matter how you cut it.
 
No, it's bad
 
11:26 AM
@Aza Gone
 
@Aza well that or people who are just enjoying the drama
Which is just as bad
 
user206222
Appreciated.
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, people who support transphobia because it causes drama are worse than transphobes.
 
@Aza eh
Anyway, I'm on mobile, can't unpack this
 
@Aza some people just want to watch the world burn.
 
11:29 AM
@Aza They don't even care
 
user206222
Yeah.
 
Worse? Maaaaaybe. Dumber. Hell yes
 
@DavidA Well, "slightly uneasy" is certainly better than outright open hostility. The way to help people overcome that uneasiness is for them to interact with trans people in an environment where trans people are safe. Gradually, they realise that trans people aren't aliens and they become more comfortable interacting with trans people. IME.
2
 
user206222
That's definitely one way to help, for sure. It's commonplace and has its place. It's... also worth keeping in mind that it does come at the cost of comfort in a space. Not discounting it, but it's an important qualifier to remember.
 
11:40 AM
@Aza dead
 
user206222
ty
 
34 messages moved to Chimney
 
And the user changed their name to a trollish one :]
 
user206222
Yeah, was about to mention.
 
@Zoethetransgirl just raise a flag
 
11:45 AM
way ahead of you
 
:/
 
@Aza hm. That's a surprise
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek The person, or the content?
 
The person
 
@JourneymanGeek Not really
 
user206222
11:46 AM
@JourneymanGeek Concur, that doesn't shock me at all
 
"it does come at the cost of comfort in a space" For sure! OTOH, as Leslie Feinberg explains in Transgender Warriors, without those trans people who are brave enough to make themselves visible in unsafe spaces we'd still be stuck in the dark ages. But we certainly should not expect trans people to put themselves into situations where they're likely to suffer emotional or physical abuse.
3
 
user206222
@PM2Ring ...was not expecting to see Feinberg cited today, that's a pleasant surprise.
 
I've stumbled over that user multiple times, and whether it's me or someone else, they've been rude if the person/people disagreed. I pushed it to the point where I got "blocked" by the user (erased from the HTML). In addition to outright toxic comments, I'm not surprised they did this.
 
I was really touched when the mod called2voyage outed herself as trans in the middle of this fiasco. That takes a lot of courage!
 
@PM2Ring Stuff like this pushed me to also be Out as well.
 
11:51 AM
@Zoethetransgirl the user has other issues sure...
 
user206222
Yeah, that user has been on my watchlist since the start of this, from some other comments.
 
It's awesome to see happen.
 
I don't know what you guys think, but perhaps it's best not to discuss particular users if they are not present? No matter their behaviour, stances or what not?
2
 
@Bart eh I guess
 
11:53 AM
:7966168 And that all meta users are toxic, disagreement is toxic, downvotes should be abolished, and generally acts on it in a toxic way.
 
user206222
Useful as a case example for how predictable transphobia is if you know what to look for. I'm not really trying to focus in on the specific person.
 
@Aza It's a brilliant book, even if it is a bit dated now. I discovered Transgender Warriors in my local library. The look on the librarian's face when I borrowed it was priceless. :)
 
user206222
@PM2Ring That's real good, I really appreciate hir writing. I have not read enough of it.
 
I propose to sunset the term "transphobia" and instead describe specific objectionable behaviors as that has a greater chance of conveying the intended message.
2
(as well as similar user-centric terms)
 
We can't adequately talk about the specific objectionable behaviours if we're not allowed to use the term transphobia in conjunction with discussing them.
 
user206222
12:00 PM
I am very, very close to flagging this question as abusive. Please keep an eye on it, this is the person who wrote the "identify as an attach helicopter/apache pronouns" question.
 
@Bart Fair point. It's general policy in many chatrooms that it's not allowed to criticize individuals who aren't there to defend themselves. Criticize the behaviour, not the person.
 
Let's not delete as abusive content that might have been posted in good faith...
 
user206222
Yeah, I'm flagging this, as I think about it. You don't ask about "apache" pronouns without knowing the ways that's been used as a ridiculous cudgel against trans people.
 
user206222
They know, this is just civility trolling.
 
I'm not convinced it was meant as a troll question
 
user206222
12:05 PM
Abusive flags, please. Another screed.
 
@JohnDvorak The problem is that crap magnets attract crap, and it doesn't take long for it to reach critical mass and explode into an abuse fest.
 
clearly not constructive
 
@PM2Ring wouldn't downvotes suffice to avert snowballing?
 
@Aza Gone. He tried the same thing a couple of days ago, before the CoC was released.
 
@Aza I closed it against the FAQ, thanks to @DavidA for providing the link to the answer so it is now deleteable, in case users are open for that
 
12:10 PM
That question literally had an exact answer in the FAQ.
 
@JohnDvorak Not really. And a lot of the crap is posted as comments which can't be downvoted. And when those comments get deleted, the comment writers react in outrage, powering them to go and write more crap comments.
 
user206222
Delete vote cast.
 
facedesk
I think I keyed in my new work system password with capslock on
and tried to log in 3 times and failed
 
user206222
(Still needs one more delete vote.)
 
which one?
 
12:12 PM
no 20k here :(
only sadness
 
Oh I CAN FIND ONE!
sorry, just got into work out of touch.
 
user206222
 
@Magisch The OP of meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335283/… is the guy I mentioned a few days ago who posted his anti-trans proclamation as a question.
 
yea, it's gone and he got suspended for a week
 
and erf
 
12:14 PM
tbh I didnt even read all of it. After the first sentence I erfed a R/A flag and closed it
 
while I personally don't worry as much - this is one of those days I wish delete votes were anonymousish
 
let's drop the discussion on specific users once their case is dealt with. This is not Tavern on the Blame
 
user206222
I think they forgot to purge their profile but it's kinda w/e, glad it's handled.
 
user206222
Time to move on.
 
user206222
En garde.
 
12:15 PM
@rene Eh actual problem I once had
as a mod - sometimes folks react badly to getting posts deleted
 
yes. I react badly all the time
 
I'm tempted to just go nuclear on these people and cite the fact that something like 99% of the posts don't even use pronouns (and is gender-neutral). The CoC itself can be trivially followed by anyone with a modicum of decency. But I think someone already did that.
 
@rene Understood. I didn't want to post that user's name here the other day. I only said that stuff because Magisch did want to find the old deleted question.
 
user206222
It's tempting, but just flag as abusive and share so it can be flagged down. Please don't give oxygen to the flame if you can help it.
 
@PM2Ring thanks for your cooperation, appreciated
 
12:17 PM
I do wonder though the sheer amount of concern over trolling scenarios so unlikely and clearly transparent strains belief that it is good faith concern
the front page is full of this, there are 10+ answers on the faq you link to raising this, and there are numerous comments citing this, yet you need another discussion on exactly the same thing? why
 
user206222
It's essentially never been good faith. People who come in good faith don't ask those kinds of questions. They ask other questions instead.
3
 
Folks these days - quite legitimately - have little trust in the company, which is why they don't want a CoC that can be used as a beating stick against them
 
@Magisch good
 
user194636
This is what happens when you don't go through an education and buy-in process with the user base.
2
 
@JohnDvorak of all the legitimate concerns about the change this is the reddest of herrings...
 
user206222
12:21 PM
No, this is just what happens when you fight transphobia.
3
 
@Aza uhm. Actually - you're both right? ;p
Most of us have no idea what's the right thing to do here
Most of us are also fairly unprepared to deal with it
Its not really an excuse but...
 
user206222
The community's gonna need to re-learn how to self moderate, I get that. The only way is practical experience.
 
user206222
So, trial by fire, we're here, let's flag some crap down. If you make mistakes while learning, that's all right. It takes six people for a reason.
 
Trial by fire isn't very inclusive...
 
@Aza or one. Technically :/
@JohnDvorak ah, but that's kinda the thing.
 
user206222
12:25 PM
One for CM review, and we're just gonna have to trust them.
 
@Aza technically once you know what's happening, it clearcut what to do
 
user194636
My point is: If SE had allowed for a proper collaborative change process, the trolls would be shut down in an instant by the vast majority of users that support the reasons for the CoC changes. Trying to find six people for r/a flags would be a non-issue.
7
 
though, I'd totally want a modified version of the standard flag
I mean mod message
 
user194636
As it is, many good people are distracted by their own confusion and anger at SE.
 
user206222
Yep, common sense rules. When in doubt, ask. Anyone can help, but a trans person will probably have a better sense while people learn, because we've got prior familiarity.
 
12:27 PM
When this drama first started to unfold, after the Monica sacking, I was a little hesitant to flag the anti-trans comments, figuring that if we hide all the evidence of transphobia then people would complain "What's the big deal? I don't see any transphobia!". But I now realise that there's no shortage of evidence, and when it appears we need to zap it ASAP.
 
user206222
The community's gonna have to learn and adapt to burying transphobia, just like we already do racism, etc.
 
user206222
It's a perfect proving ground to build that skill set.
 
user206222
@PM2Ring This has been a legitimate concern, I think. But now... it's clear. I think most people who would want to acknowledge it now see it. People who've missed it can be brought up to speed as we go.
 
user194636
All this turmoil is not inevitable when "fighting transphobia". It is as bad as it is because SE made it so.
 
user194636
I don't like it, but that's how I see it.
 
user206222
12:29 PM
Pointing fingers at SE isn't productive, right now. The transphobia is there right now, regardless of how and why it got there.
 
@Aza eh, I actually think that fixing systemic issues with that does a lot with getting folks onboard
 
Most of the turmoil on MSx is against SOinc, not against trans people
 
user194636
I'm just stating the obvious really. Whether it is productive or not? Who can say.
 
I'm totally going to disagree with you on conflict being the only productive route :/
(this is geek btw! I know. Lots of new faces.)
 
user206222
Systematic fixes are also important.
 
user194636
12:31 PM
@JohnDvorak Certainly it is. And it is a distraction this process could well have done without.
 
@Aibobot wut? You're not a bot?
 
@Aza and a different way to change the status quo
@rene woof?
2
 
lol
 
user194636
You'd think @Aibobot's avatar would be a dog in a sock really.
 
user206222
@Aibobot Both are needed. We have to be able to flag crap down quickly, and we need systematic changes in place to enable long-term viability.
 
12:32 PM
So... Aibo is a bot, but Aibobot is not?
 
I'll tell the story of the office sock when things are calmer
 
Never did get one of those. They cost a fortune.
 
@Aza so - two different fronts. Its just as important to win over people on the fence as get rid of the nasty ones
 
user194636
The point you're missing is that nothing scales like the community at large.
When they're on board, the need for systemic changes is much reduced, and often eliminated.
 
user206222
@Aibobot Wholeheartedly agree :)
 
12:34 PM
@Aza and I feel a lot like there's a lot of the focus on the latter
and that makes it hard to do the former some times
 
user206222
@PaulWhite And we've gotta flow that education out to people somwhow. That starts here.
 
and its hard to tell folks from what would be a position of previledge 'fight less hard because folks feel like its bullying"
 
@PaulWhite Even if SE introduced a new CoC under ideal conditions we'd see a transphobic response. But they certainly made it worse by the way it was done, and how the CoC & FAQ has been worded. So the transphobia is mixed with & inflamed by general mistrust of SE, people not being sure how mods will enforce it, people not wanting to be told how to write, etc. Also, it's obvious to the community that the mods & ex-mods aren't presenting a united front re trans issues.
 
which ... is a thing I'm having trouble with sometimes
 
user194636
@Aza The vast majority would be onboard without much special education. The changes are obviously for the better. The way this has been handled has distracted people from that.
 
12:35 PM
@Aza open war is about the worst way to educate people about one's legitimate concerns
 
@DavidA It's not a lot to be forgot, Aibobot is not a bot. The tot has not a watt to spot, for Aibobot a bot is not.
 
user206222
@Aibobot Nasty posts also make it extremely difficult to win over people on the edge. They confuse, distract, distort... so if we want to do either, we need both.
 
user194636
@PM2Ring Those responses would stick out like a red flashing light, and be dealt with trivially. That's my point. There was no need for this to be so divisive.
 
@Aza sure but there's folks who're good at... the calmer way of winning folks over too
@Aza and... in the current situation, its a tide of those
 
user206222
@Aibobot I respect them and what they do. I'm one of 'em, when the time is right. We work in tandem.
 
user194636
12:37 PM
The fact that significant change in the past has often required extreme action should not be the aim for the future.
 
user206222
Any change like this takes people who are willing to break apart old systems. It also takes people who are willing to build new ones. If you only have breakers, you're left with rubble. If you only have builders, you never see change.
 
(I've had to walk away from a situation where I sympathise with folks, but am utterly fed up with their attitudes)
@Aza there's also renovation to consider ;p
 
@Aibobot renovation is what you get from putting breakers and builders together
 
@doppelgreener maaaaybe
 
user206222
@Aibobot Someone's gotta tear out the old crappy bathroom tiles ;)
 
12:38 PM
@Aza .... my floor is laid on old floor
my dog sounds like he's wearing taps
 
and at some point if that old floor is rotten, it'll need to be removed and something will need to be put down in its place
 
but right now
 
user206222
....okay well, construction analogies only go so far.
 
the situation feels like lots of tearing down
and people throwing bricks through my windows
 
@Aza just the tiles though. To the community it seems like the entire house is going down.
 
user194636
12:39 PM
Someone said to me recently that drama and 'violence' were inevitable in times of fundamental change because "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs". That seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.
 
user206222
you'll get new windows! better ones! you get to design 'em.
 
@Aza but the broken glass!
I'd rather just have the old ones politely removed!
 
user206222
broken glass can be cleaned up! and no one wants to pay for 'em to be replaced, to schedule the call, to hire the contractors. just think, what windows have you always really wanted, jg? the future of stained glass is in your hands, now!
 
@Aza it feels like fbueckert's solar panels right now
 
user194636
who wants blood-stained glass 🙂
 
user206222
12:41 PM
@PaulWhite I use it for my rituals.
 
The contractor has gone off for a cup of tea, we don't know when they're back...
 
user194636
@Aza flagged
 
Now I'm totally wondering if I might have run into aza in some of the stranger parts of the internet I used to be in XD
 
user194636
ha ha ha
 
@Aza "we don't care about casualties. We have plenty enough replacement people and guns."
 
user206222
12:43 PM
Ahahaha possibly, possibly.
 
(used to hang out in a few more... spirtually inclined communities, indirectly)
 
user206222
Anyway, "be willing to flag stuff down" ≠ "flag everything that has an inkling of transphobia." Just that a lot of the really awful stuff could be cleaned up, or cleaned faster, if we were more active about it.
 
So - here's a fun problem
that ought to be a meta post so people outside here know
buuut
 
user206222
@Aibobot ...hmm. It's... not likely we've crossed paths, but it's not strictly impossible.
 
how do we actually do that witjout mentioning
@Aza well, if faileas or geek rings a bell
@Aza tiny parts of stranger odd communities...
so unlikely ;p
 
user206222
12:45 PM
@Aibobot They do not!
 
Ok, phew
this world is not too small
 
user206222
@Aibobot It's probably a task for Tavern, for now, I think. I'll lose a thousand rep to downvotes if I breathe the word transphobia on MSE, so.
 
(cause outside people I know there, there would be, eh 20-30 people total on those old irc channel)
@Aza eh, I'd do it
 
user206222
@Aibobot would be extremely funny coincidence
 
just trying to work out how best to do it without literally mentioning attack helicopters
It would!
almost as strange as someone from lords of the battlefield popping up here
(my first moderation role ever!)
 
user206222
12:48 PM
@Aibobot Did this happen??
 
user194636
64
Q: A Pronominal Proposal

Gareth McCaughanThe recent Code of Conduct change and, more specifically, the associated FAQ have not gone down well. (For the avoidance of doubt, linking to those does not constitute endorsement.) So of course I wonder whether any policies on this contentious issue would be more broadly acceptable to the commu...

 
user206222
@Aibobot mmm. hard one, not sure how, either. I don't know if educating people on how to spot and flag can be done in a single post, either.
 
Until someone goes 'wait. That geek? Wolf Ava?'
@Aza hmm
Its not fun if it's easy
 
user194636
I'm sure that's been linked here already, but I really like it as an example of what SE could have done better. In a few hours. Drunk.
 
But it also something that needs a huge degree of tact
besides, I have a few thousand points of reputation I hardly deserve :/
worth burning it for a good cause
 
user206222
Examples of anonymized posts and comments might be a good way to do it.
 
user206222
Say, "stuff like this? flag it and raise it in Tavern." Gives people some baseline to work from.
 
Well - if I talk specifically of attack choppers as an identity, and why its bad, it gets a platform no?
 
user206222
@Zoethetransgirl [loud sigh].
 
12:52 PM
Or just ask not tell them to flag
and that folks in the tavern are willing to help
erf. We're getting pretty close to the point where I'm unhappy to just stand by though
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek The approach I'd take is to lay out some general guidance, and then link specific examples. Screenshots I think are okay in the context of, "this is unwelcome and will be immediately removed."
 
user206222
sleep time
 
goodnight!
 

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