Reports blocked for 600 second(s) in room 65945 on stackexchange.com.

Oo

Oh that’s a different room

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335245/tcs-nqt-phase-2-results and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335246/…

Y'all know what's needed.

also delvotes here meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335233/data-sets-for-mugging

@JourneymanGeek Delete-voted all of them

@Stormblessed on Law.SE most of the site doesn't welcome questions in the first person, mainly because that it's considered "legal advice" but also because personal information doesn't need to be known

@RobertHarvey Hey. still sticking around ?

Okay, I missed happy hour. How did it go?

@Shadow Yay!!

I've been super confused recently. Is it a CoC violation if I stop using all pronouns except I, you, we, they (plural only) and constantly refer to users by their display names?

No one is he, she, they (singular) anymore. No more himself, herself, themself. Problematic?

Until someone "states" an alternative, no.

whatever that means

If you pretend to be a writer, yes, that avoidance is incompatible with being a writer. If you don't pretend to be a writer, you are fine.

@iBug read this alternative FAQ

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with a link in answer, link at end of answer (140): How to calculate the composition of a borate buffer with a defined pH using the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation? by Lee Wood on chemistry.SE

@rene TL;DR;

How do you guys find time for this?

It's not a really busy time of my life but I can't keep up. At all.

@SmokeDetector K

When they spam chem I wonder if they tried to spam elsewhere and ended up on the wrong site.

@Aza That feels like the very definition of a toxic environment

@M.A.R. same :/

@JourneymanGeek that, or anger is still too hot and fresh so people are in defensive mode, i.e. will backlash at anything they don't like, even while normally they'd be much less hostile. (Just a guess, I really can't keep up to date with all the drama)

@Shadow People keep throwing fuel into the fire

@Aza They hate being told what to do or else

@Aza yes, I have started wondering that as well.

@JourneymanGeek exactly

@Aza Which are.... Almost stock phrases

Being asked nicely to do something is one thing. Being told "If you won't do this you'll be suspended" is totally different. It's not to be asked nicely.

@Aza So... Least my own theory of moderation

There's three ways to do it

And the nuclear fuel is what happened to someone who dared to disobey that new change before it was even out. This explains the amount of heat/anger/fire.

@Shadow that, or it's a toxic environment

@Aza Yes... because it's against hardwired behaviors.

Well, toxic doesn't immediately imply to me that I farted, it just means it's not a pleasant experience to post.

@Aza when too many people take part, the only option is shutting down the place.

If there were about three or four neopronouns (instead of... ~15?) stuff would be a little bit easier.

Moral suation, social pressure and force

@Aza A lot of people. Individual voices in themselves don't contribute much to it.

Like they do with toxic chat rooms.

@Shadow true. Let's assume for a moment that heat/anger/fire hadn't been there? What would the scenario have looked like then?

SE went straight to force as most people saw

@rene anger/heat/fire

There's an attempt at a chilling effect

@M.A.R. HAF sounds better

That could be the next Avengers

But... No guidence

@M.A.R. that is an hopeful outlook ;)

@Shadow no

@rene yes

@M.A.R. maybe

@Shadow Mayhaps

@M.A.R. Mayhem

Being on fire is the new default then?

Yes

@Shadow Too WAGy

Hair on fire

Cool

@M.A.R. no u

@Shadow NO UR FACE

@M.A.R. nose

If nothing else it got made about a person not an action.

Then it got muddied more

@rene you mean if they wouldn't have kicked Monica the way they did? IMO the change would still get a negative score, at least -200 net score, and people still object but... with much less anger/hatred towards the company.

And that's something SE could have find a way out from, but now.... really hard to have hope things will get back to normal.

@Shadow Actually I think it would have gone a lot better if they started with a consultative process

@Aza it made it a much bigger issue

I'm ok with using the correct pronouns

I do my best to explain why

but

@Aza Well, it doesn't have to directly do with it. IME, busier places on the internet are exponentially more likely to get heated. Thrice the traffic definitely affects the perception.

Like, does anyone even remember the MIT drama?

Folks are just too angry

@JourneymanGeek but

and erm... other stuff I'd rather not talk about here

Well, I'm angry, and regardless of my background, I find using someone's pronouns common courtesy, although I admittedly have never encountered a situation when I was asked to call someone a zem or whatever.

Nope

@JourneymanGeek yeah yeah, it all goes back to when dinosaurs used SE :p

and outside having to remember (and I think a proper solution is planned... ) its not onerous in most cases

@Aza Individual people are reasonable

mobs are not

@Aza I think our preferred approaches to this differ.

My take is it's all at best a red herring to discuss the validity of the stance. People are upset about its apparent unanimous slash inconsistent enforcement in the future.

@Aza fact is its an unmanagable mess of people who are angry. And conflict is fuelled so the reasonable folks are just too tired to do anything.

And if actually getting the bigots to come out and say it was a goal, it happened. Then what?

not all of them are just going to quit

Some of them are going to stick around and post reasonable seeming things.

@Aza As a mod? I'm demoralised.

I'm scared to step in that mess. I'm tired. If I did step back up, I don't know what fresh crisis someone creates.

@Aza I know, but having the thing derail into a discussion about the roots and philosophy doesn't help with anything. What most of us can agree on, and is worth discussing, is why such distracting info needs to be on an SO post.

Practical issues.

Someone just let the wolves in with the sheep. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be a sheepdog.

There are better venues for discussing the whole thing.

@JourneymanGeek Dog proverb?

Sorry. Its been stuck in my head a while

and that's what this situation feels like.

@Aza yeah well, I wish.

@Aza On the other hand

If we hadn't had the distraction

if we had a core of folks onboard who're happy to work on, and with folks to get the stuff we needed

@JourneymanGeek Dog proverb.

You can't run a community just by kicking out everyone who remotely dosen't share your values.

“hostile”

@Aza ooh, you have me on a bit of a dangerous path for myself

I'd say this though.

this would have to be anyone

and I'd rather have the ability to remove the things fuelling hostility than remove people

then work on getting people less hostile

@Aza uhm. In this case though - there's guidence that's messy (sorry CMs) and confusing, there's a few groups of folks taking the religious objection root...

@Aza Assuming we have folks to moderate.

there's two issues here.

This became deeply political

@Aza I think a factor you are underestimating is the emotional attachment to language. I've no issue with the requests in English, but I fear that when the discussion will be brough to French Language, I'll find myself finding some requests unreasonable for just language reasons.

and its just so tangled I'd personally have no idea where or who to start with.

@Aza and yet - this is what conflict looks like

you can't have conflict and not have toxicity

I will watch as you gloriously run in circles.

Cardio helps heart.

@M.A.R. chasing my tail?

@Aza erf. I don't even want to touch the linguistic can of worms.

I'd not know half of what to do in my own language outside the more common situations.

(ignorance, not unwillingness. )

@M.A.R. are you on Discord as BlindSnow? (Someone by that name just joined the meta room and claimed to be you, just wanna double-check)

>_>

@Aza I used to be in a community that was mostly open, and accepting, super chill with... anyone...

As I've said before, asking for neopronouns is a bit too much for a lot of people who'd otherwise be sympathetic to the CoC changes. Sure, it's not the only issue, but a lot of posts have mentioned it. Perhaps some of those are merely using it as an excuse to hide their deeper unacceptance of trans people. But I don't think that's generally true.

and... was occationally a toxic maelstrom of people trying to be boss.

@Zoethetransgirl YES. For God's sake

Thanks. Sorry

Naaaah

The only thing with this whole ordeal im against is people abusing this as a way to attack those who have a differing opinion. It’s just so hypocritical to me. I feel I have to stand up for them.

I have better things to be frustrated about

Like the fact that @Kevin hasn't mehhed in quite a while.

@KevinB Axes don't really have stable standing positions

@KevinB and... that's pretty much the definition of conflicts ;)

I'd advise against standing

@Aza Meta? difficult

and I'd pass on the bullshit posturing

@Aza I hate to say "start with the top down" but if you have folks willing to take the long term route, and don't suddenly have to deal with things going out of control

fact remains, this is a community of people. We have to be able to deal with differences without pushing people away. Not every thing has to be do it my way or leave.

if the community especially the most vulnerable part trusts them

and they have support.

maybe

But I see very little of that right now

@Aza And yet - look where the quick path got us

we can't fix years of decay overnight

We can't even fix 2 weeks worth of it

Causing harm on everyone else in the process is unacceptable.

Has it?

There's also a conflict on what you say

meta is toxic. More toxic than it has been

This place hasn’t improved in 3 years. It’s o my gotten more and more divided.

More and more hateful

@Aza so... now what?

@Aza and there's no janitors left.

there mess seems to be growing and smelling worse

@Aza The xkcd forums are pretty good for LGBTQ+ stuff. It's common, but not compulsory, to have pronouns in your sig. There's a great LGBTQ+ safespace thread, and a separate thread for people who want to be educated on LGBTQ+ issues. Sadly, the xkcd forums got hacked and are currently offline, otherwise I'd be able to link to some useful posts from those threads.

@Aza the CM's are also probably overwhelmed

We also have folks who arn't actively hostile, and hopefully not part of the problem ... getting scared off

So.. take charge.

You don't need a diamond

There's still enough of a community to fix

At this point I'm going to try what I can to keep stuff from getting worse, trying to talk to good confused people..

I don't have the energy to run around meta, telling folks I feel could be a core of a better meta to hang on any more

It just feels like a power grab

Its a failure I guess but, I think we'll survive if we don't have another bomb dropped on us

None talken

I do think you're doing what you feel is right

A forceful takeover, rather than a movement.

I am angry but its directed elsewhere.

and I suspect when the novelty if this dies down

we'll be in a easier place to actually rebuild

And I hope its seeon

too many distractions to the real issues ><

@KevinB No, it really isn't. But I agree that the way it's been delivered by SE, and the way a lot of people are reading it, and responding to it, may make it appear like a takeover.