Tavern on the Meta

12:00 AM

@Magisch You judge outcome by reaction of recipient. In the same way, you coud judge intent by asking initiator for it. Surely there is a balance between intent and outcome, wouldn't you think?

Magisch

@dfhwze Depends on what level I'm judging things at

If I want to get to know you and decide if I like you as a person, sure.

dfhwze

what if you moderate and asses situations?

Magisch

If I'm running a online community whose utility for people I'm trying to maximize the distinction isn't so useful

Thats what the basis of assume good faith is. Just operate under the most favorable assumption (see: steel manning an argument) and decide your course of action based on results otherwise

David A

I've been tracking where this stuff is being discussed. It's mostly hacker news and slashdot, but a couple more troublesome places have picked it up.

user384163

I really enjoyed reading Kate Gregory's take on assume good intent and its use as a tool to exhaust already marginalized groups

Magisch

12:03 AM

But that principle of assuming good faith also means when people tell us to use their pronouns that we take them at their word that it is indeed what they want

dfhwze

got a link?

David A

But remember that not only marginalized groups matter. Everyone does.

4

user384163

There is a fine line between accepting that and allowing the damage it causes and assuming the worst from isolated incidents

user206222

These events are being watched on fascist/supremacist forums with intent to target trans people. The kinds of places that, you know, have actually killed people.

Magisch

you can't both be default skeptical to people you don't want to respect and claim benefit of the doubt for yourself.

user206222

12:04 AM

Just, to give some sense of the severity of how quickly things could turn south if we're not careful.

user384163

checks if identity is well hidden * convinced I wouldn't know

David A

@Aza KF for instance. I won't spell out the full name.

user206222

Yes.

user384163

@dfhwze link

dfhwze

@AGirlHasNoName thanks

Magisch

12:05 AM

I'm paranoid about my online identity, because I've let slip here that I have autism and am asexual. That alone means some people probably want me dead or at least wouldn't think twice about harming me directly

very few people know my real name or adress

user384163

I was in the closet so I was loose with my identity.

user384163

It didn't dawn on me I would even out myself here. I wasn't planning on it.

ArtOfCode

@Magisch ...welp :P

Magisch

@ArtOfCode touche

you're one of ... 4(?) or so people who do know

user384163

So... whelp I wouldn't know how to clean it up if I wanted

ArtOfCode

12:07 AM

...why do I seem to be the one with everyone's personal details recently

Magisch

cause you send stickers

user206222

@ArtOfCode Make a room for us, I can pass you my SSN.

ArtOfCode

eh, true

David A

Don't be that lifelock guy.

Magisch

technically you even have my bank account number

ArtOfCode

12:08 AM

@Aza sure, lemme just add you to the database :P

@Magisch I do? :P

dfhwze

@DavidA like the all-lives-matter reaction, that one backfired.

Magisch

@ArtOfCode I sent you some money via paypal at some point. It does show the chained payment method in the receipt, I think. And my paypal is paid through my bank account

ArtOfCode

@Magisch I don't seem to remember there being bank details on those txn logs, but who knows

user384163

Of course non-marginalized groups matter. But they already get their representation. Their lives already matter. Asking others to treat marginal groups with respect isn't asking people to deplete the respect pool that then somehow means less respect to go around for the privileged majority folks.

Magisch

respect isn't a zero sum game anyhow

ArtOfCode

12:11 AM

@Magisch yeah, no bank details on there. You see your bank details on your own transactions, but not on other peoples'

Magisch

good to know

Cerberus

@Magisch Neither are understanding, and freedom.

Magisch

freedom actually kinda is a zero sum game

in some aspects

Cerberus

It can be.

But often the freedom of many different parties can be increased without anyone losing any.

user58

I'm on my way out, but...

2 days ago, by user58

You cannot both require respectful behavior and allow for people who do not want to grant that respect.

David A

12:14 AM

@Cerberus ideally yes. If you come out of the gate trying to force someone to bend the knee, you'll definitely get resistance.

dfhwze

@user58 The nuance here is between who do not want to grant that respect and who do not want to grant that respect in the way demanded

2

I think much of the conflicts lately are about that nuance

Cerberus

@DavidA This may happen, yes.

David A

@Cerberus it's practically an American tradition.

user384163

Let's not pretend like there wasn't always going to be resistance. Challenging the status quo always elicits pushback. And there is no way to establish a rule like this without the threat of enforcement. If it was toothless we would get reactionary pushback and zero follow-through.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 lies. You really are a disembodied rolling head

Cerberus

12:24 AM

@DavidA I don't know much about American traditions.

Journeyman Geek

As the person who brought up assume good faith...

Shog9

@JourneymanGeek yes, but my real name is "Garth"

user384163

@Cerberus They are unfortunate. Consider yourself lucky

Cerberus

If you say so!

dfhwze

^^

Journeyman Geek

12:26 AM

There's a few reasons - it's something a lot of folks believe in and are passionate about. Its useful in getting people onboard. It helps with the actual intent of the COC changes

Cerberus

To be quite honest, I thought America wasn't very much into tradition.

Shog9

The apple pie tradition is pretty good

Cerberus

I mean, tradition in the traditional sense.

Shog9

Chicago dogs are solid too

dfhwze

the square dancing I like

Shog9

12:26 AM

Red chilli... We have lots of good traditions.

user384163

I just want to go somewhere that Im less likely to be murdered.

Shog9

Well... Not Chicago then. Stick with pie

user384163

and the closet

Cerberus

@AGirlHasNoName I'm very sorry to hear that. Is it really that bad where you live?

Journeyman Geek

I have heard... Stories of Chicago

Cerberus

12:28 AM

Aww. That sucks.

Come here!

user384163

@Cerberus There are way worse places

dfhwze

how about Northern Syria as we speak :s

user384163

I read a story about two 14 yo trans girls there just two days ago.

user384163

It made me cry

Cerberus

@AGirlHasNoName OK I have no idea.

@dfhwze Yeah, that's terrible.

I am loath to read the news.

@AGirlHasNoName In Syria?

user384163

12:30 AM

yes

Cerberus

At least one can get an operation in Iran.

I know little about Syria.

David A

The news exists to monetize misery these days. If you want to smile, a feed of kitten/puppy pics is a much better strategy.

dfhwze

Yeah media is not about journalism anymore, sadly.

David A

"... give us dirty laundry"

Cerberus

Or watch What Would You Do?

Feel-good television, mostly.

dfhwze

12:32 AM

Feel-however-we-want-you-to-feel

Cerberus

Of course.

But still good.

Sentimental, sometimes mistaken, but it still makes you feel better, doesn't it?

I remember an episode about leaving one's baby upstairs while having a coffee in the café downstairs, with the baby phone on.

user58

@dfhwze I haven't heard any explosions over the border lately...

dfhwze

@user58 you live there?

user58

Close. In Northern Israel.

...and on that note, I am applying self discipline and actually going to sleep like I said I was an hour ago.

dfhwze

@user58 don't let any bombs disturb your sleep :p

user58

12:38 AM

Last time there was an air raid siren I slept through it, so

dfhwze

so you are used to these things

I wake up when I hear a car ... two streets away

Shog9

now taking bets on the # of minutes before 58 shows up again, oblivious to sleep

3

Alex

I don't think anyone who's spent significant time here would take that bet.

Magisch

15 minutes

Bart

I give it an hour

Shog9

12:50 AM

y'all peaked at the activity graph :|

Cerberus

Does the graph peek around that time?

Tanner Swett

I'm feeling the urge to say something about the new pronoun policy.

But I don't actually have anything to say about it.

Journeyman Geek

Excellent

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

1:41 AM

I've been complying with it even before it was introduced, so I don't have anything to say either.

Addison Crump

So I'm looking at the comments in the new policy release post on Meta and I see a lot of references to Monica being affected by this but I totally missed it. If it's out of line of me to ask, I can accept that, but I'm curious what this is referring to, so what happened?

Not asking for drama, just want some context

Nevermind figured it out; for those dropping by who were curious like me: meta.stackexchange.com/q/334551/308256

WinEunuuchs2Unix

The pronoun can of worms is at negative 850 votes. What is the record for downvotes?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@WinEunuuchs2Unix The previous update

Fun fact: the top 9 negatively-scored questions were all posted by current or former SE staff members

WinEunuuchs2Unix

Caesar is the same author as the nebative 850... the guy is on a roll. Sorry I mean she or her or them.

yeah when mere mortals get downvoted past negative 5 they hope for a mercy deletion

ento

2:01 AM

@AddisonCrump I'd also recommend meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334399/… which tries to give an overview in a neutral fashion

(I say 'try' because I don't think true neutrality is achievable, not because I have specific issues with its neutrality)

Addison Crump

Ah, thanks

That is certainly a much more neutral source. Hope this gets resolved soon

user206222

4:25 AM

"The last message was posted 2 hours ago." Is it... could it be true?

Journeyman Geek

5:18 AM

@Aza this is normal for normal weekends 😁

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Not very fun :/

user384163

@JourneymanGeek Are you suggesting things are back to normal?

Journeyman Geek

@AGirlHasNoName One can hope

user384163

I'm not the hopeful type. I'm off to sleep. g'night.

Journeyman Geek

Once the distraction has past, and the trolls wandered off seeking new thrills, and the anger is at best a bare simmer, we could actually begin the real work ahead?

user384163

Indeed

Journeyman Geek

5:32 AM

And I don't have much left but hope. And maybe a rusty spoon that has seen better days.

user384163

ohh my spoons are nice.

Alex

Better a rusty spoon than a crusty spoon.

user384163

and my knives

user384163

everything else is crap

Journeyman Geek

I do not have nice knives. My dad manages to ruin anything remotely nice so we have cheap ones 😁

StephanS

5:37 AM

@JourneymanGeek I think because of current events normal users have begun to act as trolls

Journeyman Geek

@StephanS That will need fixing

user206222

Abusive flags, please.

user206222

Also this one, though it's borderline given context, and I went with unfriendly/unkind.

user351483

5:54 AM

@AGirlHasNoName thanks for the flags on TWP. Please raise more if this situations continues.

user206222

6:48 AM

Just as a heads up, I saw a mumsnet reference just now. It's well known for its severe and violent transphobia. It also has a couple policies that people use to try to cite and bring people in from outside.

user206222

Anyone who cites mumsnet knows what they're doing.

user206222

(Like, it's "dozens of articles written about how horrifying they are"-tiers.)

user206222

vice.com/en_us/article/a3mn9k/…