Tavern on the Meta

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

05:00

see, here's the thing

user384163

@Nobody yes I've seen it. I've had trouble controling my emotions too. I know how it feels to get ganged up on.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

words, not totally accurate, then depicted as high truth, used to victimize and legitimize anger

enderland

I also firmly believe there are also many users who do care against the CoC and similarly see Monica as a symbol of that. An advocate of sorts _against_ the CoC changes or even against non-binary gender. Those people do exist imo, though I cannot empathize with them

But for many of us, the entire discussion around pronouns and the CoC is nearly irrelevant to the meaning of Monica as a symbol

user384163

Then when you lose control you become the bad guy

Nog Shine

@Nobody I am good today. Just reading some meta posts here and there. Can't even keep track of the events.

De Novo

05:01

It sounds like you were a big part of getting SE to address lavender community issues. Thank you :)

@nob

user310756

@NogShine you are lucky. It's been like a tragic car pile up. I can't stop from looking

De Novo

@nobody

user384163

@enderland Those vocal few have polarized things and made them muddy

Nog Shine

@Nobody I saw you from The Litter Box with those horse and foal images. Those days were good.

user206222

@enderland I... empathize, for what it's worth. These things do weigh on people, pretty heavily. Unanswered feature requests, incidents with no clear and definitive resolution, a slow drifting of company values, etc. do build up. That's a real pain. On that topic, pronouns are an intersectional footnote. The people who aren't fond of pronouns... are likely to think this is a particularly petty and enraging case. The people who don't care about pronouns... are still hurting.

enderland

05:02

@AGirlHasNoName yes, I agree, and it is why I volunteered to share my personal perspective (as a power user; 100k+ site rep (rip no swap for my 100k site... sad), who moderated 4+ years here)

user310756

@DeNovo No, I cannot take credit for that. I am a big advocate for all minorities on the site - it started with women actually.

user206222

I understand, and I wish there were more room made for this nuance. You say it eloquently.

user310756

@NogShine aw that's so sweet. I put my horse vids on youtube. I can share a link if you like?

Nog Shine

@Nobody Sure!

enderland

in my opinion, the "blame" has come with a lack of SE simply stating the obvious: that the goals of the company and the goals of the users have diverged.

which, in many ways, has caused a problem - that divergence was never really acknowledged. The words that SE said (and indeed, still says) do not match the divergence of goals, which breeds and festers mistrust

user310756

05:03

87

Q: Declining Numbers of Women in Programming, What Can SO do to Help?

Edit Summary for the TLDR People are asking for a summary due to the enormity of this thread of posts and comments. In summary this post is to discuss the link of diminishing numbers of women in programming and the research that reveals this is due to women feeling isolated within such a male d...

user310756

@NogShine this is my channel youtube.com/channel/UCvALL5LVh9hwlJrgdKVTtzQ/… they're not professional quality - it's just sharing their lives

user384163

Can we just note how long this conversation has gone on and remained civil?

De Novo

@Nobody well thank you for your advocacy :)

user310756

Shog is around and you have been proactive in helping @AGirlHasNoName

enderland

What I do not know is what the breakdown is in this particular case. My feeling, based on way too many years of participating in TL and meta, is that a large percentage of the frustration around this specific event is similar to my perspective - and not meaningful disagreement around the CoC nor pronouns. These issues have existed for years at this point.

but that's... just a feeling and obviously cannot be easily substantiated

user310756

05:05

@DeNovo you're welcome. I will always advocate for people with less power within a community.

user384163

@enderland I have not been a power user for nearly that long but I see it. Not the actual problems because I don't remember the old way. I wasn't here. But I see the frustration. I see the resentment. The feeling of being unappreciated and not listened too.

user206222

@enderland It's hard to say. No matter what the actual values are, the discussion leaves Stack Exchange vulnerable to appropriation for radicalized beliefs. I haven't been in TL in a while, so I've lost track of its pulse. But on MSE... it's getting worse, in a way that's definitely in no small part about these specific issues. They're used as a wedge.

user310756

@DeNovo > in a pure meritocracy, everyone must begin de novo

user310756

nice

user206222

I'm sure most moderators are at worst indifferent to pronouns. I know several (ex)-moderators absolutely hate the idea.

user194636

05:08

@Aza There has been a lot of debate and some very good work. Some of that you have already seen on meta.

Journeyman Geek

@enderland Well ya and who determined priorities

user384163

FWIW I have had to deal with people being hurtful on sites other than MSE and the mods were supportive and appropriate.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Aza ok, I haven't been in the debates on MSE that much, but the most radicalized thing that happens on the sites these days, is how management is applying the rules, deleting content and deciding how we will behave.

enderland

@JourneymanGeek same thing. it all comes back to $ in my non-ever-employed-by-SE-opinion ;-)

user384163

But I only frequent a few sites

enderland

05:09

@Aza the part that frustrates me the most is how easily SE could isolate the troll side of things by addressing the userbase feeling neglected/disrespected side of things

Nog Shine

@Aza For some moderators and many users, this could be new.

De Novo

@Nobody thanks!

user206222

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Ahah, there's so much hate on MSE, right now. Goddd, it's so bad. I see a lot of it before it's removed, because... I watch for it. If you don't... well, I'm glad.

user384163

@FélixGagnon-Grenier There has been a very radical undertone to the anti-trans sentiments being spouted.

user206222

@enderland Kind of yes, kind of no. I wish it were that simple. But I agree it would go a long way -- if Stack found a way to be heard and seen while doing it. Which is hard, in the current climate.

Nog Shine

05:10

@Nobody May you get back to what you were..strong and healthy! Good wishes for you.

enderland

@Aza I think it actually could be that simple, perhaps it is trickier now given a month of buildup/mistakes, but there are many ways that SE has tried over the years and never really sustained

user206222

@NogShine Yeah, lots of people are new. But, you know the people I'm talking about. The people I'm talking about have... made a decision, already.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I suddenly become very conscious that I'm like.. the only one arboring the name on my birth certificate here.

user206222

@enderland I mean, I'm happy to chat about specific actions, if that's something you're up for.

user384163

@FélixGagnon-Grenier birth certificates are onerous

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

05:12

I was trying to avoid saying "real name"

user206222

@FélixGagnon-Grenier It's appreciated, my real name is not on my birth certificate. And, hey, if you cover the $500 court fee for me, I'll gladly put it on Stack Exchange.

user384163

I wasn't offended. Just saying I wouldn't use my "real name" under any circumstance.

enderland

@Aza I think, that while this is well intentioned, the problem is you aren't actually SE or an SO employee (gosh, saying SO instead of SE is hard as the company name, habits there die hard)

user206222

(not a real offer I'm not gonna do that sorry)

Ramhound

Since the topic has turned to that topic, I am out of here, until such time the topic isn't that topic

user310756

05:14

@NogShine thank you. It means a lot xo

user206222

@enderland Well... yeah. But it's not like we're being flat-out ignored, for the most part.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek transcript, if you're still around

enderland

Perhaps not a small number of moderators. but, I am no longer part of any inner circle (as much as I ever was, which would be highly debatable anyways)

user384163

@enderland this is the time for SE to prove they listen. It will require us to speak though

user310756

@FélixGagnon-Grenier people are feeling less safe

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

05:16

I've considered removing it a great many times in the last weeks and moths.

user310756

and butterflies?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

awww :p

user310756

:)

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I keep it for a few things, one of them being ESR's text about names

user310756

room hug

user384163

05:16

I wish I had distanced myself from my name sooner than I did.

user206222

@enderland That's... understandable. There's no pressure to by any means, if it's not something you think would be of value.

user384163

And I didn't even have my birthname

user310756

@AGirlHasNoName I cannot remember it, it that helps. Mind you I call my kids by my dog's and horse's names

user310756

does anyone else here just feel sad?

user384163

@Nobody all the time

user310756

05:18

:(

Nog Shine

enderland

@Aza I think realistically, SE allowing its good community management team to engage on meta would go a long way. Perhaps "allow" is not the right word, what I likely mean is encourage and make part of official job responsibilities

Nog Shine

This is me counting ^^

user194636

Not sad no. Frustrated

enderland

"Back in my day" you had many engagements from CMs across the network, on various metas. It wasn't perfect but... it happened

That trended down as part of the progression I outlined earlier

Ramhound

05:19

I have seen the vile statements have made towards me. Sadly I would never have my profile be my actual name for that reason alone. I would have said exactly what I have said but, there comes a point, where my own safety must come first. I blame this on the people, who have decided to send SWAT teams to people's houses, as being some sort of "social justice" instead what it actually is...a crime

user310756

@enderland the problem is it's now run by a company and there's legals and strategies and committees and people to sign off on things. It's getting harder for them. From what I hear

user310756

@NogShine lol I do that without my glasses

enderland

@Nobody right, that's more or less this divergence of goals - chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8003164#8003164 - once you become a "real" company you have to care about different things

user206222

Truthfully? I think the CMs were a lot more unified on how to respond authoritatively, than they are now. Care, caution, and discussion in advance are... good changes, I think. But it definitely leaves a hole.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

luckily for me, there's winter where I live. Nobody's going to come to freaking Canada.

user310756

05:20

@enderland oh totally agree

user310756

This was my turning point. I hope people don't mind a dramatic one box

user310756

313

Q: The world is big and I am SO small. What are the implications for our meta community with the changes in Stack Overflow?

TL DR: The input from meta carries far less sway than it used to. The Stack Overflow Company (I'll refer to as the network) is making the decisions on site changes. We need to adapt to our new limited influence. OR should I stay or should I go? So this is less of a discussion, more of a head...

discussion meta users user-experience

user310756

Where's rene? looks around furtively

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Ramhound Yeah Twitter has had me real worried about the perspective of having tens of thousands of people wanting to cancel me

enderland

@Aza I think it is easy to imagine how different this entire situation, from nearly top to bottom, would have been if some of the veteran CMs had been "responsible" - I dont like that word, as it implies I know job responsibilities, but either way, the community response here almost assuredly wasn't surprising

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

05:21

Then I decided that I'm generally not being an asshole, and that I need not fear that.

user310756

@enderland I realised that SO had forever changed. There was a lot of discussion about it in our mod room and a lot of us felt grief. I suspect some CMs may have also at times.

user310756

I had to decide - do I stay and in effect generate income for a for profit business or do I go

Nog Shine

@Nobody Flowers can't take too much of heat. Once the current heat is down, they appear ;-)

enderland

I stepped down as a moderator over a year ago and that trend you point out in that post was pretty obvious to me even then

user310756

I have decided to stay for now.

Nog Shine

05:22

But this flower is an exception

user206222

@enderland My gut says that the alacrity of the radicalizing process setting in caught 'em off guard, a bit. I really can't say for sure, though.

user310756

the petal exception

user206222

They've said in the past that they did expect some people to be pretty unhappy about these changes, though.

enderland

@Aza I mean even before the "fallout"

user310756

@enderland yep ofc

user310756

05:23

but we had confirmation

user206222

@enderland I'd guess that's fair in part, I think. It's hard to say without a literal window in to CM chatter, though.

enderland

that confirmation was pretty obvious to me too, which again gets at the trust factor which underlies a lot of the open hostility towards SE at this point amongst power users

@Aza that's why I hesitated to use the word "responsibility" in my message ;-) I have no idea who is responsible for what nowadays at SE

gosh, I feel like an oldtimer

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

... it's interesting to note, that while the technical skill is possibly there, there does not seem to be that many people ~~hacking~~ cracking SE's private communications.

user310756

> try{
potting flower
}
throw (dry humour exception)
{
use watering can
}

user206222

@enderland I don't know if anyone is ;)

enderland

05:24

Them included perhaps

user310756

@rene ^^ that is for you

user206222

Well... heh, who knows.

user310756

@enderland I actually suspect it's unclear within the organisation ttytt

enderland

It's probably worth recognizing too, as a general recommendation, that if the only time the owners of the house show up is in negative situations, it's nearly impossible to build positive good will

Which for years now has been the MO of the interactions

Shog9

@GeorgeStocker I... Just read the news. Wtf

user206222

05:26

That flowed up from moderators, I think, and not the other way around.

Shog9

we have natural walls here

user310756

another wall? what is it with walls where you live?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Shog9 yeah. there's no end

user206222

Mods tend to view users as isolated cogs in a machine, that are either working fine, or need to be Intervened With. We don't have any mechanisms for giving good or encouraging feedback.

enderland

I think what bothers me about this too is how blindingly obvious the fallout of all this is to me as someone who has been involved here a while

2

Ramhound

05:27

The time I have invested in the community, is nothing compared to the time I have spent working on my profession. Considering what has happen to a moderator, their name being mentioned to the press, I cannot risk my professional life by using my real name.

enderland

@Aza I do not agree with that; I have always viewed my role as a moderator as community builder. this does not scale on sites like SO/SF but for the majority of sites it does

user206222

If you actually gave specific people positive feedback, sent encouraging messages, etc... that honestly makes you pretty unique, among moderators.

user206222

I would guess on the order of 30/600 actually engage with that process.

enderland

That may be due to the somewhat uh... tumultuous beginnings to Workplace, where it took a fairly dedicated effort to actually build a community and keep the site around (which by either miracle or sheer force of will, matters)

user384163

FWIW I saw Monica doing that on smaller sites. She worked with people and built them up. That is another reason she is a symbol.

7

enderland

05:28

^ yes, this is absolutely my experience on Workplace with her

2

user206222

@enderland I relate to that, most of my skills have been honed on new sites, too.

enderland

Workplace was the dumping ground for Programmers.SE which started as the dumping ground for SO....

user310756

@Ramhound I'm a little concerned about being targeted by users at me work. I hid my dev story some time ago

enderland

I think too, the smaller sites result in an increased psychological ownership (as compared with "just" SO) because as a user you can actually influence a site meaningfully

4

That feeling of ownership makes a breach of trust feel even more poignant

user310756

I even got a bit of that over SO

enderland

05:32

@Aza I do not really know how to respond to this. But some moderators are more interested/willing/time-available to engage with the community on meta/main than others. I was not remotely alone in this from my perspective and I distinctly remember making the argument in TL before around moderators not being just janitors but shapers of community

user245382

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Maybe the walls are metaphorical. Like, the real walls are the ones we build in our hearts?

user206222

@enderland That's definitely doubly true if you're appointed on a new site. You are given a position of authority in a place that needs a leader, and people look to you to... lead 'em, a little. Even the highly independent ones give you space to operate. That works for some mods, and doesn't work for others. Very much a proving ground.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

such poetic. amaze on-topic. very true. wow.

enderland

@Aza I was... not appointed :-) however, I did win in a landslide ;-)

Ramhound

@Nobody - Nobody deserves to have their life affected by anything that goes on in this community. If that has happen to you, then I apologize, even if I don't agree with some of your statements about the community or the generalizations you have stated.

user206222

05:34

@enderland Well, appointed on a new site ;)

user245382

@Ramhound Hey, Nobody doesn't deserve that! Oh wait...

user206222

@enderland I think TL doesn't have as big a reach as we like to think it does

user206222

It's, very good, though, because a lot of the people who drive moderation culture are there

enderland

TL felt like a toxic place over a year ago

It sounds like that hasn't gotten better

user310756

@Ramhound no it hasn't. Only mild stalking so far.

user310756

05:35

@enderland agree.

user206222

It got worse, in my experience.

user168476

In a lot of ways, I am glad I don't have access to that room anymore.

Rob

Certainly seems like groundhog day there whenever I peak in

enderland

Which if you think about it, while only ~600 moderators are on the network, seeing Monica of all mods get kicked out in spite of knowing how... toxic/disrespectful others in there blatantly were over time (thankfully, I don't remember specific people so I have at least forgotten that aspect) is, well, it really reads as hypocritical to all of those folks

2

user384163

@enderland From someone on the outside it seems like she was the figurehead.

user206222

05:38

Monica's case is where things get... thorny. Again, this is one of those nuances that gets lost. I'm gonna try to cut a hair in three pieces because things are calm, and no one seems to be waiting to jump in and make chaos of civility.

user384163

Once again she was the symbol and attacking her was meant to bring it all down. Instead it made a martyr and everything burned.

enderland

@Aza oh, I think, even if things were 100% justified (and as someone who thankfully has never read things there and has no interest to) it just is hypocritical given people there who regularly were toxic and never once got kicked, while someone who was the epitome of Be Nice in all other interactions did

user206222

@enderland I'll keep my peace, then. I agree.

Ramhound

I am sure somebody will star that message out of context.

enderland

there is an entire conversation around "was she toxic herself?" that is a side conversation but in many ways this gets to the split of why people are upset in the first place

that being, people upset with SE as a company vs the CoC issue

user206222

05:41

Yeah, that question's not a part of Monica the Symbol, so it's... a little tangential to the current problems

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Houseman those were two very underrated comments you did there. have an internet.

enderland

It is and it isn't. It is, to a much smaller group of folks who had very negative experiences with other people in TL @Aza

user384163

@enderland Is there a conversation around that though? Because all I have heard is "How dare you imply that she could have been toxic"

user206222

That's fair. That group is smaller and comprises very few public users, but that's worth acknowledging.

enderland

@AGirlHasNoName I don't know. I wasn't there, so it's not really my place to judge what was happening there

@Aza many of those folks are also significant influencers or advocates of the larger, disgruntled "meta folks" (for lack of better category)

user384163

05:43

@enderland which is how I feel too.

enderland

It's also a topic that probably doesn't need rehashing for the thousandth time, either ;-)

which is why I've tried to focus on the impact of things, ignoring the truth of the situation

user206222

@enderland Many of those people also have less agency to dampen the radicalization process than they'd like to believe.

enderland

because at this point the facts hardly matter given the perception of things

user310756

@Rob how are you?

user206222

It sucks, but I think it's worth treating like two concurrent processes, albeit connected to each other.

user310756

05:44

how's the mod queue? I've applied to be reinstated, but don't know if I will be accepted ttytt

enderland

@Aza it is kind of like pushing a boulder off a hill. That boulder bouncing through a small town and wrecking it happens regardless of why the boulder got pushed off a cliff - understanding why a town was built at the base of a hill with tons of boulders at the top can be looked at independent of why someone pushed a boulder off (or if they did, maybe wind blew it. maybe the boulder was improperly secured... etc)

user206222

Yeah, I hear that.

enderland

there's causation but in online communities, it's a lot more complicated than A-->B

user206222

Community Development as a Process is a real good book (albeit old and with some issues). There's some writing in there about this process, how communities cope with a sense of loss of control when that reality shock hits.

enderland

Something I've wondered too is when MSE hit a scale that it wasn't a community the way smaller sites are and became more like SO. Or maybe it still isn't there yet, it certainly feels like it is

Rob

05:48

@Nobody Fine.. pretty busy, haven't been around the site too much

user310756

@Rob I imagine it's different with so many less mods - at least in the chat room

user206222

@enderland I think the MSO/MSE split is... definitely the first symptom, in my mind. I really do think it goes back that far.

user206222

I know that's a little controversial, though.

enderland

I think that split was fine. but at some point, MSE became a community that didn't include SE

Or SE left the community

user310756

@Aza it's like all the bad blood from MSO has filtered to MSE

user206222

05:50

That's what I mean. Creating MSE broke the link to the natural heartbeat of what a functional community can look like.

user206222

I think those two things are causally connected.

enderland

I don't know if I agree with that - I think that MSE, with CM and other SE employees engaged, could have been highly effective

But at some point, that engagement went to too low a level or the MSE community itself got too big

user310756

wasn't it good for a while?

enderland

I have fond memories of it being effective and useful yes

Journeyman Geek

@Aza I disagree there

MSE was MSO

user206222

05:52

I think a lot of people wanted it to work, and that kept it going for a very long time.

Journeyman Geek

I wouldn't be engaged on MSE if it was MSO

enderland

Keep in mind too though I've been engaged for a long time now, I was pretty active starting in 2012 which was 7+ years ago

user206222

But... people were pretty ill-equipped to make it a long-term viable solution, and I wrote a fair bit about that when it happened, if I can dig it up.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek MSO covered all of SE plus SO

user206222

(It might be in the Puzzling mod chat, though.)

Journeyman Geek

05:53

@Nobody maybe but lots of folk felt we had less of a voice there

SO is just so much bigger everyone else gets drowned out.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek By way of contrast, I stopped participating on MSE once it split from MSO, and I never really cared much for Stack Overflow specifically ;)

user310756

@JourneymanGeek ah ok

user310756

yeh it needed to split

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Early SO/SE treated community as part of the development process.

enderland

and that was even true with the early days of MSE

user206222

05:54

Point being, I believe you, but I don't think it's exaaactly that straightforward.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek SO and MSO is it's special brand of organised chaos

user206222

Go on!

user310756

@enderland and we get back to the original point you made

Journeyman Geek

So... (AND I AM SORRY I FORGOT WHO WAS THE THIRD OF THE FIRST THREE!) Dori and Rebecca at the very least were devs and community folks

then there was a pivot towards community evangelists

folks who were not devs but good at communicating with the community

enderland

I honestly believe that original point underlies nearly all the massive conflicts and drama that has happened in the last years on meta sites @Nobody

Journeyman Geek

05:55

In a sense - developing the community is as much part of the code that builds SE as the actual code

And while its easier to get resources to develop software

enderland

It... should be, yes

And in the early days is was

Journeyman Geek

its more difficult to convince folks that we need to spend money on developing community

user310756

@enderland this is where I'm frustrated. I think people are having trouble accepting it's really no longer a community driven site. It will only be community driven as much as needed to appease people, It is corporate driven

user310756

I gave up the illusion that we are running the show a while ago

Journeyman Geek

Its always been "We need to do (careers/ads/enterprise)" to fund community

enderland

05:56

@Nobody the problem is SE the company keeps saying it isn't but acting as if it is

Journeyman Geek

But community is a driver to those things

enderland

you know, years ago, SE used to have CMs that periodically checked in on each mod team and often interacted in our mod chat. perhaps that continues now? I remember that fading off significantly over the years I was a moderator

user310756

@enderland ofc! it's a business and it's lip serivce

enderland

or maybe, they just stopped liking us/me :-)

user310756

I am super cynical though

Journeyman Geek

05:57

@enderland they used to have dedicated CMs per site

enderland

yup

Journeyman Geek

that tailed off cause ... we have 170 sites and... a total of 6 CMs?

user310756

@enderland we ended up (probably still do I don't know) having some CMs live in our chat room. But we were spoilt

enderland

I had many convos over the years with @Shog9 and a few other folks from SE

user310756

the team has given me A LOT of time

Ramhound

05:58

@enderland - Totally the second reason :-)

user310756

and I'm grateful

enderland

I have not been an entirely uncontroversial figure in my time on SE @Ramhound

user310756

@Ramhound they don't like us? :)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

0

A: Why does it incorrectly say I lost 8,000 rep?

It looks like the same bug has caused the monthly reputation league page to show incorrect numbers for the reputation earned this month. (I came across this because I happened to be scrolling through the page just as the UTC day was rolling over. I was going to post this as a new question, but as...

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