Tavern on the Meta

πάντα ῥεῖ

16:00

@Nobody I am saving my life here, at Meta SE, Code Review, German Language and a bit of Software Engineers. :3
This site (Meta SE) is the only one I am allowed to chat (wich sometimes can get quite s**king)

hey

yeah, certainly sulking

πάντα ῥεῖ

I've learned to choose my words well :3

If you take a look at this message they sent you:
IMPACT
~2.2m
people reached

user315433

Somebody sent you a message with IMPACT?

πάντα ῥεῖ

you should start to consider that probably :-/

@bro No, that was from my profile. And I am operating with a quite closed circle of interest there.

hey

On Pandemic.SE, it would be bad...

πάντα ῥεῖ

16:09

LOL

rene

16:20

> Not sure you've ever been a problem.

If you can't remember I still have some leeway ;)

TylerH

Does closing a migrated question as a duplicate result in a rejected migration

πάντα ῥεῖ

@rene You're the CCO ;P

rene

@TylerH no, closing as a dup is the only way to close a question and prevent a rejected migration

@TylerH see meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/354350/…

Sonic Wizard

@rene When a migration is rejected, it is not reopened on the origin site. It is still closed as off-topic there.

Besides, the migrations in that question shouldn't even be taking place because don't migrate crap.

user315433

@SonicWizard -1 unwelcoming language

Sonic Wizard

16:33

@bro There's a reason why I posted this here rather than as a comment on that post.

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tpu-

Sonic Wizard

@SmokeDetector tpu-

rene

@SonicWizard sure, but once it gets migrated, lets not send it back

hey

don't crap the migraine

Sonic Wizard

@rene But closing as a duplicate of some random target is the incorrect way to do it.

rene

16:39

@SonicWizard you obviously can't read.

πάντα ῥεῖ

That would be @gnatted

Sonic Wizard

Only two close voters not voting for migration is enough to stop it on Stack Overflow. There, in order to migrate, there needs to be at least four people voting for it.

@rene @bro -1 flags as offensive

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SonicWizard 3, and give them 6-8 whatever to implement it

rene

I might prefer the flag user option anyway

Sonic Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ It's three on most sites, but set to 4 on SO only.

πάντα ῥεῖ

16:41

sd tpu-

yagmoth555

tpu- do what ?

hey

true positive and blacklist the user.... wait, which post?

rene

last smokey report that got removed, within the 2 minute edit grace period

yagmoth555

ah ok! the last one, on hindu

Sonic Wizard

To be honest, I absolutely despise this self-deletion. It's no longer transparent.

hey

16:44

Everything is transparent on Charcoal HQ or MetaSmoke

yagmoth555

ty for the info, as I read that answer and was hoping it got banned, hehe

Sonic Wizard

@hey There's a 5-minute delay before posting on Tavern, and then that room can be inundated with messages quickly, and then I don't know which of the reports is the one that was self-deleted here.

hey

Is there a problem with that?

Anyway, there's a trick to record all the messages using Chrome's (and other browsers?) Developer Tools

Sonic Wizard

I use Edge

Wait a second...ROs can see deleted messages. @rene Can you please RO me?

rene

No

4

hey

16:48

No

Sonic Wizard

@rene Why not?

rene

Because I don't have the faith this will go well.

Sonic Wizard

Why is that?

rene

But there are other RO's and there is staff, try your luck there. If they see no problem, they will give it to you.

Sonic Wizard

Can you please explain in more detail why you're not doing it?

hey

16:51

@SonicWizard OTOH, why do you want to be an RO?

Sonic Wizard

So I can see deleted Smokey posts.

I really hate its self-deletion

NobodyNada

@SonicWizard why not just ask a RO what they are?

hey

that's... the most non convincing reason I've ever heard.

Sonic Wizard

I don't want to inundate ROs with requests

rene

@SonicWizard because I have the feeling you get sometimes stuck in a pattern that you don't seem to snap out, even when you're asked to. That worries me as that might lead to you doing things that have a negative impact on this room.

Sonic Wizard

16:52

What things?

rene

Exactly this

NobodyNada

@SonicWizard why do you need to see them in this room, as opposed to CHQ or Metasmoke?

rene

@SonicWizard watch the charcoal room and you have all the details

Sonic Wizard

8 mins ago, by Sonic Wizard

@hey There's a 5-minute delay before posting on Tavern, and then that room can be inundated with messages quickly, and then I don't know which of the reports is the one that was self-deleted here.

NobodyNada

I don't see why that really matters though

hey

16:54

It seems we're back to 0. Is there any problem with that?

πάντα ῥεῖ

with what specifically? I see many problemz

hey

Or do you doubt the action taken by Taverners?

rene

we're always back to 0 at some point

hey

Back to earth... oh... (suddenly dark topic)

Sonic Wizard

Posts are reported on CHQ immediately, whereas there's a 5-minute delay before they're reported here. During those five minutes, CHQ can be inundated with tons of messages, and then even if I go search which message was posted 5 minutes before the Tavern message, there can be multiple messages posted within the same minute, so I don't know which report is the deleted message (because I can't see it)

@rene What exact things?

NobodyNada

16:57

@SonicWizard why does that really matter though?

hey

You could ask Charcoal HQ to add new information on Meta Smoke like: "forwarded to <name of chat room>" for audit.

jadarnel27

I have solved this problem by having the SmokeDetector chat account in my "ignoring users" list for the last couple years.

Sonic Wizard

Also, if I mistakenly mark a report as false positive, it's immediately self-deleted. This makes it difficult to correct a mistake because I have to go through the above steps.

NobodyNada

@SonicWizard That's being discussed

Sonic Wizard

@NobodyNada I'm the one who's running that survey. The majority of respondents want to keep the existing behavior: immediate self-deletion upon one fp report (even though it could be a mistake or typo).

hey

16:59

Or just install Chrome and use its Developer Tools and log the WebSocket so you will get all the messages which can be read at any times without worrying the deletion (as long as the tab is not refreshed)

Sonic Wizard

@hey I don't use Chrome for several reasons.

Let's not get into that.

hey

fine, your choice.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey Don't be rude please! People might have their reasons why to use specific software and hardware! :3

hey

And regarding that survey... how long will you run it/when will you end it?

Sonic Wizard

I've said this before. It's not compatible with my touchscreen, it makes text and boxes look weird, and most importantly suffers from the WebRTC IP leak flaw, with no way to get around it except through an extension.

(I use a VPN sometimes)

πάντα ῥεῖ

17:02

@hey That nick reads so good :-D ...

Sonic Wizard

@hey I was planning to end it after two weeks, which is two days from now.

There were no responses in the last couple of days.

rene

@SonicWizard like you getting obsessed to know about what exact things. Again, maybe it is just me. Others opinions might differ.

Sonic Wizard

How will my being an RO impact that? You're afraid I'll start kicking users if I don't get explanations?

(Sorry if that came across as a rant)

rene

I'm afraid of many things, yes

Sonic Wizard

I'm an RO of Shadow's Den. I've only kicked once, and that was for valid reason (one user was repeatedly pinging another user over a dozen times).

hey

17:05

@SonicWizard thanks for letting us know :)

Sonic Wizard

Interestingly, fewer people opted for my alternative concession (to postpone self-deletion by a couple of minutes to allow users to correct mistakes, but still self-delete in the end).

hey

Well, Tavern is considered as an "official" chat room of MSE... there's a reason why RO are chosen very specifically by trust.

Sonic Wizard

Given that the overall community consensus is to embrace self-deletion of Smokey messages here as much as possible, and I don't like it

πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey

hey

Someone called me? waving head

πάντα ῥεῖ

17:09

7 mins ago, by πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey That nick reads so good :-D ...

:3

hey

:D

Sonic Wizard

Really? What the heck is there to down vote here? — Joe Friend ♦ 17 mins ago

Joe Friend ranting about one of his posts being downvoted

Anonymous

2

Q: Is the Implicit Association Test effective at determining an individual's biases?

A recent post on the Stack Overflow blog, Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change., discusses the problems that members of marginalized groups may experience when participating on Stack Exchange. Most of the post focuses on how their background may lead them to perceive ...

Anonymous

I guess this is the Stack Exchange way to interrogate that premise.

Sonic Wizard

@user1114 Why did you rename yourself just now?

Anonymous

17:14

When things get to politically heated I sometimes like to use names other than my full real name.

Sonic Wizard

I see you've hidden your other communities on your Skeptics profile. But you're leaking something somewhere.

Your profile still links to jeremy.ca

Anonymous

@SonicWizard ...huh. I guess that's didn't propagate across the network. Thanks, fixed.

Anonymous

but it doesn't need to be perfect, I'm not going to bother updating the network profile.

Sonic Wizard

I was taking that test, but my browser crashed in the middle. And I just happened to be using Chrome that time.

Anonymous

Hmm. 🤔

user5389107

17:17

@user1114 too lazy to dig up sources rn, but afaik there was a whole spiel about it being worthless and the concept being flawed

Sonic Wizard

I guess that's why I was more emotional about my distaste for Chrome just now.

user5389107

Due to how it interprets familiarity as positive bias

Anonymous

My understanding is also that it isn't meant to be accurate at the single-sample level, but only in aggregate, like many scientific tests.

Anonymous

but rather than proclaiming that myself, I will let someone else write an answer so it doesn't just seem like me continuing to rant my personal opinion.

user5389107

I really dont care to get into that debate tbh

user315433

17:19

@user1114 Understandable, but it doesn't take a manual update, only two clicks to sync.

user315433

Which used to be automatic once upon a time...

user315433

And now I have to remember to go there and sync after every name/avatar change.

user5389107

the whole dialogue about this blog post is poisoned already

user315433

I find stormtrooper figurines offensive. Why not just use SS officer figurines?

Anonymous

@bro If I change it there, I'll probably forget to change it back next time. ;)

user315433

17:22

Is Jay implicitly approving the Alderaan genocide?

hey

In the middle of the test... ugh, my eyes...

πάντα ῥεῖ

(no sarcasm, just fullheartedly good luck) — πάντα ῥεῖ 1 min ago

hey

darn, I need to rest my eyes between each round... otherwise, it's nauseating

user315433

17:39

@hey what's the subject

user315433

Or is that a visual acuity test

hey

@bro I think so, the "blink and it's gone" test

user315433

<--- spelled acuity correctly, only googled afterwards to confirm. Go me.

user315433

It still doesn't look like a word to me though.

hey

> Your average rating after pleasant images was 3.7, and your average rating after unpleasant images was 3.7 (a higher average indicates more positive judgments).

uhh... being a rhythm gamer who used to have quick eye-brain reflex helped... maybe...

Undo

17:57

undo's minirant/call-to-action of the day: Give me links to these people who consistently discriminate against any minority group so I can ban the crap out of them.

4

(PHP does not count as a minority group)

3

hey

exclusive to SO?

Undo

Doesn't matter. I can ping people.

hey

I'm not sure some on Hinduism Meta counts...

Undo

Uh, yeah, religion sites are hard. Not willing to fight that battle yet.

yagmoth555

on SF ppl was tolding us we were too rude, we did a meta post to talk the problem, and we tried to be softer, and that worked as I see a lot less rude comment. I think it's something to do per-site, and to get the community together to do

I talk rudeness, but I guess it apply to inclusion

Undo

18:09

You see, inclusion is a much harder argument to sell here than many other places. Inclusion of what is the main question that comes to my mind

"Inclusion" is a word with many meanings. Are we talking about inclusion of $race or $sex? Or are we talking about general 'inclusion of people who ask "bad" questions for one reason or another'?

Shog9

@Undo that's why I prefer "accessibility" as a goal

striving to make the site accessible to more people is worthwhile even if they don't care to use it

Undo

There we go. I like that.

That's a goal that I can see real solutions to. Question templates is a great example.

Shog9

Also...

There's also the curb-cut effect: changes that make the system more accessible to one group can benefit everyone. NYC is kinda infamous for their inaccessible subway stations, going so far as to fund cab fare for disabled persons instead of fixing elevators or installing ramps... Of course, that does nothing for a weary shopper with a basket of groceries or an otherwise-fit person with an unexpected twisted ankle. By targeting specific groups they've given up a much larger potential benefit to everyone. — Shog9 ♦ 3 hours ago

NYC grudgingly accommodates folks with different abilities, but does not try hard to be accessible - and everyone suffers as a result.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Undo dude.

user315433

As someone who spent days reformatting PDF files to be accessible (with a benefit to exactly nobody), instead of doing more productive things, I am reminded of....

user315433

18:22

Apr 23 at 20:52, by Shog9

It's more like... When you're paying for school and paying for housing and making only a little money, and you have to carefully choose what you pay for and when you pay for it.

user315433

And I don't think the D&I focus leads to good choices.

user5389107

@Shog9 Imo SO is already as accessible as it can be without compromising the goal

Everyone can make an account, everyone can post

NobodyNada

I'm a bit discouraged by the attitude toward moderation in the blog post. Moderation on SO often feels like a losing battle against the flood of low-quality questions, and Jay's statement that our moderation efforts "make [him] sad" is honestly really frustrating.

There are problems we can work to solve, like snarky comments, but downvoting duplicate questions is not a problem; it's the design of the site. The blog post really feels like it's optimizing for sand while disparaging the hours of time put in by volunteers.

Undo

At the same time, though, the sand is what's left to optimize. If there's a real problem there, let's at least figure out what it is. Quantify it, define it, and if there's a reasonable fix... why not do it.

user5389107

Well, the latest time it'll be noticed is when people inevitably start to complain about the decline of quality again

Undo

18:28

(the sand might not be all that's left to optimize, but some people feel that way)

user5389107

It's worth remembering that SO is so successful precisely because it's inaccessible and has a culture of adversarial discourse to arrive at the best content

Jon Ericson

@NobodyNada I think what he intended was it made him sad that the system is not well communicated to new users and comes off as harsh even when most users are trying to be kind. It's the misunderstandings (ironically) that bug me.

user5389107

That's not a bug, it's a feature

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Undo I've had/seen very little success into getting anyone to actually quantify, or even accept that they should quantify, how/why they feel excluded

Undo

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Same. I'm hoping we get some hard examples out of the next few days.

user5389107

18:29

I'm part of two of the "minority groups" people like to trot out as being excluded and it always annoys me

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

fingers crossed

user5389107

It's almost like the ultimate insult

Shog9

@user5389107 that's what "accessibility as a goal" means: that everyone should be able to use the site.

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 :-( I wish it hadn't been framed as part of larger cultural wars.

Shog9

note that this isn't as trivial a goal as it might seem

user5389107

18:31

@JonEricson To put it candidly: The blog post has done a lot more to make me feel unwelcome that any harsh comments have ever

hey

meanwhile, another MSO post on "SO should be more welcoming"...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@user5389107 I think that The Powers That Be™ needed to do a clear statement about this, whatever actually happens on the site. As much as it pains me to say this, public image is something that we can't ignore.

user5389107

I think the blog post could benefit a lot from shifting the tone away from having to infantilize marginalized groups because they're oh so specially excluded. It feels like y'all think we need special help because we can't deal with rude comments or overbearing moderation as if we're extra fragile

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

That's bigger than SE however. Rejecting infantilization is an ongoing battle in most progressive ideals

user5389107

It might be true that for instance people with mental illnesses react poorly to these things but what isn't going to help is to publicly lament how hard we have it as if it's gonna fix anything. Sorry about the tone I'm just really miffed about this. I've always liked that on SO nobody gave me crap for who I am since that's such a deligtful contrast to real life where people really like to dwell on some things I can't change

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

18:34

it's really hard to get right

Undo

@user5389107 Suppose it'd been worded slightly differently: "Stack Overflow can be difficult to 'get right' on the first try to anyone (true), especially those new at programming (true). Let's fix that. And by the way, (insert data) shows that $groups tend to be newer at programming, so this'll probably help them out a lot too"

Better?

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 Yeah. We could stand to listen to people who have made a go of using the site rather than just the people who haven't.

user5389107

It's been very useful in learning to deal with emotions boiling over and "facing the fire" to come out stronger on the other side. I like how I'm not treated like some child in need of special protection here.

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tpu-

user5389107

This has been a caffeine fueled rant by me. I'm sorry

Jon Ericson

18:38

@user5389107 No problem. Did you send feedback to that survey at the end of the blog post? If not, I'd appreciate if you did.

user5389107

Yes I did

hey

@SmokeDetector and someone seems have a vendetta on a certain user

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 Excellent!

NobodyNada

@JonEricson That makes sense to me, and I think perceived hostility of moderation is something we should fix. However, the the wording in the blog post strongly comes across as accusing our actions of being the problem, rather than new users' perception of those actions.

2

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Nobody "rather than new users' perception of those actions." just my thoughts.

hey

18:52

> The real problem isn't the community — it's us (Stack Overflow, the company):

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Jon I am fainthearted. That's a social and cultural problem which is hard to crack.

@hey We're Stack Exchange

hey

The company name is Stack Overflow though...

Meanwhile, in the middle of the negativity, there's a light-hearted post!

7

Q: Stack Overflow Jobs Update - April 2018

It’s been a while since the Jobs team has provided an update! There have been a lot of changes to our team structure and some new features released so it’s a good time to fill you in on what we’ve been up to. Team update For the past couple of years we’ve had two teams dedicated to our Talent (...

discussion jobs

Jon Ericson

@NobodyNada Yeah. I can see that. It's not what Jay intended to communicate, but that doesn't mean that's not how it can across.

user315433

There are valid complaints about unhelpful dupehammering. Although it's possible to ping the dupehammering user to make a case for reopening, one has to be a pro to know that: the username does not autocomplete.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Jon Not to mention all the kudo only forums, where all that noise just ends up in vane.

user315433

19:00

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Sure, bad PR when you are about to roll out a new product is very bad PR.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I don't think we are the targeted audience here

user315433

SJW appeasement mostly.

user315433

There isn't much that (severely truncated) SO leadership can do anyway.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

In all fairness, I've also interacted with some people on twitter, after the April Weizen tweet and aftermaths, that were level headed, but that really did seem to be vocal proponents of the "minority says something, this is an absolute truth not to be discussed, let alone asked to be proven"

NobodyNada

@FélixGagnon-Grenier absolutely. This is meant for the non-users who have heard rumors that SO is an unfriendly place

user315433

19:03

Yeah, let's pay some D&I consultant to check the site copy for exclusionary language.

NobodyNada

Someone posts a homework dump, it gets closed, and then they rant about how unfriendly we are every time someone brings up Stack Overflow on Twitter/Reddit/Hacker News. Soon, we start to get a bad reputation on other sites

hey

Would it be feasible/good idea for SO (the company) to conduct a real-life interactive survey by inviting users who don't know about SO/SE at all, then ask to post a scripted good/bad question and ask for their feelings after getting the response from the community?

NobodyNada

@hey I don't think they'd have the same emotional attachment to their questions

Petter Friberg

@NobodyNada I put some effort in "moderation" but to be honest I did not feel attacked by that post, instead I went; Yes! Finally they will need to improve the ask question for first users. (Since this is actually the only logical action you can do, telling users to not be snarky has already been done for 10 years)

NobodyNada

@PetterFriberg For the most part, I agree with you, and I love the idea of improving the Ask Question page.

Petter Friberg

19:09

and SE actually are pretty efficient to remove stuff compared to other platforms

yagmoth555

on my personnal experiance, the only thing I found unwelcome, as it happened to me one time when I was a newbie, it's if you got a bad question, but someone post a answer that got upvoted, you lost the ability to remove that question, as such you keep getting dv and you can't remove that question.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

It might just be me, but I feel all this is lead through Twitter. People on Twitter saying that an other environment is toxic is of an irony level beyond any words I can think of.

Petter Friberg

@NobodyNada I think the general outrage is more related to all faild/abandon stuff, meta users want new stuff that actually improve SO for them, instead they see docs, teams, carrier, toolbar stuff and now someone also is complaining that they get snarky

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

on a scale of 1 to 4chan, it's donald trump toxic

Catija

I think I'd need to see the full scale to be sure we're on the same page.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

19:15

brb finding better scales

hey

not even to /b toxic?

Catija

22

Q: What to look for in a kitchen scale

I'm thinking of buying a modern, probably electronic kitchen scale, to replace my really ancient mechanical one. I'm located in Bombay, India. I'm wondering what considerations should inform my decision. Possible points include: Should the scale be waterproof? Is that useful? On a related note...

measuring-scales

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

hehehe

hey

now it's getting NSFW (Not Safe For Weight)...

Petter Friberg

@FélixGagnon-Grenier it's not that simple if you are first users SO is hard.. that's why you need to help them with expectations (I also remember you having some troubles with power users on meta)

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

19:17

The main difference being that I adapted to the environment instead

... but I'm not sure what "problems" you mean? That epic question about the moderator candidacy?

I mean, I had a rough patches, but I don't think I ever felt the need for SO to change

... oh yeah... now that you mention it, some things start to flow back

NobodyNada

@PetterFriberg and I understand that sentiment. It's really easy to feel like our FRs are being ignored, and a post that reads as if it's accusing us of being toxic (even if that wasn't the intention) makes it feel like the company doesn't care about what we do. From meta.stackoverflow.com/q/366665:

> Hostility against newbies is borne of terrible newbie questions. This is a problem, not of the community, but of Stack Exchange and their unwillingness to prevent low-quality questions from entering the system. And their willingness to side with askers of low-quality questions over those who provide high-quality answers. SE forces us to constantly interact with a stream of garbage; that will inevitably create hostility.

After the last few hours of reading and discussing I don't think it's at all intentional on SE's side, but it really feels that way on first glance.

hey

FR: open-source the Ask Question page

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@PetterFriberg To be honest, I think I understand that sometimes we really can,t put ourselves in the place of other people, but I condescendingly (sic?) think that the problem is with the expectations more than with the site, and this "the world should adapt to my view" is a problem that is a few orders of magnitude larger than SO, or any online community

because yes, I do believe that part of these expectations are based on some degree of "the other people should adapt to me"

NobodyNada

Don't get me wrong; I think SE staff and community are (mostly) in agreement on what problems do and don't exist and what should be done about them; it just didn't look that way on first glance because of the staff's attempt to appease the angry mob.

user315433

I like to make a distinction between Sentence case using staff and Title Case Using Staff.

Petter Friberg

19:25

@NobodyNada Sure but we are reacting incorrectly, why not say; Ok yeah we are overwhelmed and yeah maybe sometimes after a tough day I comment RTFM, How can you guys help us?, is it time to make it a priority to communicate to new users what community expects

2

user315433

I'm usually in more agreement with the former.

NobodyNada

@PetterFriberg I think that's a discussion we absolutely need to have, and I'm hoping that's what will come out of the chat we were invited to at the end of the blog post.

Petter Friberg

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I'm not sure about "the other people should adapt to me", it's more adapt to the tool, to me SO is "just" a tool. as example I often see "this OP wants us to write his code", and maybe as you know the truth is that we should not really care about what OP wants (in good and in bad), SO is a tool if the stuff can be made useful who cares about what OP actually wants...

Hence even if OP wants just wants some code, if we believe it can be useful for the future why close and downvote it, because OP is lazy?, why do we care?

Travis J

The goal should be writing to both @Petter, in my opinion.

First to them, and second to the broader audience.

While you can only assume what the broader audience may glean from an in depth explanation of X, the OP has a defined and distinct description of how that explanation will be applied.

user315433

@PetterFriberg I agree with not closing (there is no close reason for that) but I like those posts to start with negative score, so they are auto-cleaned if nobody cares about writing that code.

Petter Friberg

19:33

@TravisJ maybe but it has never been how I see this tool, if I think stuff can be useful (and it is within reasonable limits of SO, hence not a list of books), I don't care if we think OP is lazy or what rep they have

user315433

If they prove to be useful in long terms, upvotes will take over naturally.

Travis J

@PetterFriberg Oh, I agree with you from that angle. Definitely.

Petter Friberg

@bro since the CV system does not work people starts to dv, that's the only system that works (apart from in low-traffic tags)

Travis J

There is a major point of contention within the community with regards to the nuance there though.

If the issue is clear enough that an answer can be made, then an answer should be made if the question is <contention>

user315433

DVs don't prevent useful content from being posted in an answer.

Petter Friberg

19:36

put it prevents question from being useful, google search will not work well

user315433

But they do allow those who don't want to see "send me codes" to filter out those questions. How else would we avoid them?

Travis J

Heh, @bro, what a firestorm that is.

user315433

I am not sure Google really cares about post score.

Travis J

Let me ask you this, just from a discussion generating angle: why should we avoid send me codes questions?

user315433

I should avoid them. Because I don't want to see them.

Travis J

19:37

lol

I mean, I don't either, or at least, I think I don't.

user315433

My point is, votes help us filter the stream if we want to.

Petter Friberg

Don't' get me wrong on all of this, there is tons of crap on SO, we don't even close 10% of all the crap, I'm only saying we have the wrong focus, we force stupid mcve, we force debugging question in the end we end up with less useful stuff.... all in the reasoning "baah this is too broad", which wrongly often is "what is your attempt", where is your code"...

Travis J

To be honest, some of the most fun questions to answer are where you get to jam out a code snippet real quick.

Petter Friberg

I really don't give a crap in my low-traffic tag if they make an attempt!, I often edit it away after some time since it only mess up the question :)

Travis J

Meh, "crap". I think that is part of the problem though, because when users get used to only looking for crap posts, then that is eventually all they think exists. The idea that users should stop answering questions in order to properly cull content in the form of low quality queues and close vote queues seems to be flawed.

hey

19:39

I'm waiting for someone who succeed in making a working app purely from SO answers.

Petter Friberg

If question is useful, hence not duplicate, but some problem others can have, I find it fun to answer, then I answer

user315433

> Hey @StackOverflow - first easy step to making your service more welcoming, from someone who has abandoned your network due to the way it treats users - get rid of question downvotes. They serve no business purpose (sorting questions by votes is meaningless) and annoy new users. -- Jason Berkan at 12:38 PM - 27 Apr 2018

hey

no programming skill required, just post a clear business requirement for a partial function

user5389107

@bro Welcome to cuddle overflow where downvotes hurt your feelings and are out because of that

Travis J

"Sorting questions by votes is meaningless"... definitely disagree.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

19:41

@PetterFriberg I don't think I was proposing to legitimate unnuanced downvoting and closing, I agree with what you write

user5389107

The day SO does that the experts pack it in and move elsewhere

NobodyNada

@bro siiiiggghhh.....

Petter Friberg

@TravisJ maybe true, but yeah you tell me one tag (not to low traffic) and I will in 5 minutes show you 40 question that are not closed (and probably never will be) but really should be. Also the NAA stuff is just crazy every minute we get NAA posts on SO

user315433

If SO leadership really cares about the experience of new users... how about making code easy to format? (fenced codeblocks).

user315433

But no, we are going to review site copy for exclusionary language instead.

Travis J

19:42

@PetterFriberg A lot of those NAA flags are made by users who seem to fundamentally misunderstand what an answer is.

@PetterFriberg Also, if a question is 4 years old, with 50 views, why should 5 high volume content producers spend 1 minute each on it? Moreover, why should they do that for 40 minutes?

TylerH

@TravisJ Well the big problem with NAA flags is that the verbiage in the modal describing what they are for is absolutely opposite of what the community says they are for

until that gets fixed we will never see a reduction in NAA flag problems

user315433

NAA deletion works pretty well, I think. High volume coming in, but quickly processed.

Travis J

NAA works well when warranted.

user315433

Notably, with little meta debate.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@user5389107 It was @Joels friendly notice of cancellation, and let the "next generation" grow :3

Petter Friberg

19:44

@FélixGagnon-Grenier it was not directed to you, but to all of us, you know well as me the general feeling you get when some darn OP with no energy posting a question.... it's a hard step to take starting to judge if it is useful.

Travis J

However, it is probably only 60% accurate.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@PetterFriberg thanks for the clarification

user315433

@πάνταῥεῖ Stack Overflow: The Next Generation

Travis J

As in, 40% of NAA flags are cast for no good reason aside from the fact that the person downvoting thought the answer should also be deleted.

Petter Friberg

@TravisJ Trust me I know and still there is 1 every minute... you like to see the last one?

Travis J

19:45

Okay

Petter Friberg

stackoverflow.com/a/50069286/5292302, there you go, ok 2 minutes ago but its friday night ;)

πάντα ῥεῖ

@bro After that comes Kathryn Janeway and lost in space :3

Petter Friberg

stackoverflow.com/a/50069267/5292302 5 minutes ago

lets make it every 2-3 minutes on Friday night

@πάνταῥεῖ btw Hiya nice to see you around!

πάντα ῥεῖ

@PetterFriberg Petter Same same o/

Travis J

@PetterFriberg Yeah, well that should be deleted. But there are code only answers that get NAA flagged all the time, as an easy example of false signal.

Petter Friberg

19:50

@bro works well but lot of community work and mod work... that time we could use for other stuff (as answering questions)... How hard can it be if we with some simple logic can identify with fairly good precision these answer?... darn why do we need to this work, implement something that helps stop them (only if 10-20%)

@TravisJ sure, but again as we speak stackoverflow.com/a/50069385/5292302

hey

I should sleep... lack of sleep due to SE drama...

Petter Friberg

Just consider all the work, flagging these, reviewing them, having mods to review, they continue also when we sleep...

Travis J

@PetterFriberg Okay, that is not an answer, I agree there. But why should I spend my time on a post with 78 views that will never get hit from a google search and will be deleted by roomba automatically if left to itself?

yagmoth555

less time we will answer the same thing over and over again, more friendly ppl will be imo.

but can't speak much, the site iam on got lot less traffic than SO

Travis J

I honestly do not think we have a duplication issue at the site. Answering the same thing over and over again isn't as common as it used to be.

Canonical posts are all over the place, which is a good thing.

πάντα ῥεῖ

19:56

Hi @Travis BTW

Travis J

haiii :D

πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey hey

Petter Friberg

@TravisJ that will not roomba and actually since you have NAA on it, it is getting hit by google. SE has a massive force to remove all these NAA (they use mods), it has more prio then closing stuff.

Travis J

@PetterFriberg 0 score and low views over a year wont roomba?

Petter Friberg

@TravisJ ok 3000 hits stackoverflow.com/a/50069458/5292302

:D, I can submerse you all night...

TylerH

19:58

@TravisJ if it has multiple comments or an answer it won't be roombad

Travis J

Google sees everything.

@PetterFriberg Okay, that is a good example of one which should definitely be removed, is not an answer, and is on a post with good exposure. But, there is a lot of other content existing on that post, and it has decent views, wont that answer organically be downvoted and removed over time anyway?

Petter Friberg

@TravisJ it will be removed when someone flags it, then it goes to review a few people review, then if lots of them mods steps in and remove it....(and this goes on for several 100 of answer every day)

If we let it slide we will have tons of crap on every SO questions, and it will become github soon, with "me too answer" and "thanks answer" filling the screen

Travis J

@PetterFriberg Mods? It takes 3 20k users for those more often than a mod though.

All of my LQ votes are delete votes.

Petter Friberg

@TravisJ I'm not sure about stats, I think they say 50% LQP review queue and 50% mods, but my actual experience is that mods delete most maybe 80% of NAA. You will need Sohg9 for some real data

Travis J

If 90% of low quality answers should have been legitimate comments then there is a problem with the system.

The mods do burn through that queue at times I think. I wouldn't want shog to waste his time on looking at the exact split.

Petter Friberg

20:05

20K rarely delete these, if not from review queue

@TravisJ you can check again to get an idea some are already delete by mods...

Travis J

The main problem isn't with that type of content though. It gets flagged, it gets deleted, it shouldn't be there. The problem is with NAA flags on stuff that are answers.

It isn't just a problem of items in the review queue not needing to be there, it is a problem of users legitimately thinking that valid answers should be deleted.

Petter Friberg

:True, but it will often end up on mod desk and they will decline, I have seen some case of wrong deletion from queue (since I monitor it) and true sometimes I flag for undeletion but in the big schema of things it's not that much

meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/287563/…, Undo's famous post, yeah it's true, but again few really gems really gets deleted in the end...

Any news from Cody?

I desperately need Cody or Robert Harvey on the burnation requests. :P

Travis J

@PetterFriberg I agree, there aren't these great posts being deleted. I just think that it effects community mentality as a whole and to some degree wastes time. As a result, any improvement to it would save time and improve community outlook.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Seeing all of this intense and ongoing internal discussion, that confirms my doubts that new users at any SE site will be appropriately being "informed" enough taking the [tour] to the end.

TylerH

@πάνταῥεῖ I think you accidentally a word

πάντα ῥεῖ

20:18

That was all consciously written ...

Aaron Hall

These day are ours... happy and free!

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

\o/

TylerH

Maybe you meant '[...] are being appropriately informed'

πάντα ῥεῖ

o/

TylerH

it looks like you started writing one phrase, then changed tack halfway through, without removing the first attempt

πάντα ῥεῖ

20:20

@TylerH Questionable it is.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

basically, are you doubtful that the tour will be enough, or does the internal discussion makes you think that it will be enough?

Petter Friberg

@πάνταῥεῖ I have this old meta post, this was my first sentiment when I approached SO, it's badly written but I still think it summarize the problem we have, people does not expect SO to be that difficult, why should it be?, you go online ask a question, if you don't like it read something else don't dislike and comment that what I should do :P

it's all about exceptions

Aaron Hall

you mean expectations?

TylerH

@AaronHall Error: Exception Found

πάντα ῥεῖ

@PetterFriberg There are things like "cultural exceptions" Never show a Thai your shoes into their face.

Petter Friberg

20:25

@πάνταῥεῖ sure and as we are now SE is not helping user to understand these... there is just a darn ask question button... so heck why can't I just "Ask a question"?

Aaron Hall

I'm not sure what we're talking about here...

Petter Friberg

Neither are we :), \o Aaron

πάντα ῥεῖ

I am very sure about what we're talking about

Petter Friberg

@πάνταῥεῖ Go down town, put down a table, but a nice FAQ (on what questions you like to be asked) on the table then put a sign "Ask a question" and see what happens :)

Aaron Hall

It's all about aligning expectations between the Askers and the Answerers. Exceeding that would be an application of Postel's Law. The Answerers' expectations should be very customer service oriented - "the customer is always right". If you're an Asker, obviously, your expectations should be something like, "thank you sir, may I have another?" :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

20:29

@PetterFriberg In that boil down that's a "no brainer" UX experience, yes :-)

Petter Friberg

@AaronHall meeh it's more about; we are snarky since to much crap, SE complains, we fight back, but instead we should ask them to help us with the crap.

Aaron Hall

I'm looking forward to the new Question page, with the fields that help the Askers ask really good questions.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Just shovel with what they give you at hand.

A stone seems to be a bad choice.

:3

Aaron Hall

Can you imagine if every question was a good one?

"I'm all out of upvotes, and I didn't get to use a single close vote for the day!"

Petter Friberg

There would be very few :), but yeah SO would be really nice

Catija

20:32

I wonder, if all of the questions were good, would we start being more critical of them?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

:thinking_face:

Catija

Maybe the only reason that the good questions seem good is that they're better than the bad questions. :P

Petter Friberg

@Catija probably, you see this happening in different tags, angular for example is much more tolerant then c++....

Catija

Yep. It wouldn't surprise me.

Aaron Hall

The problem might be when you give everyone a hammer, some may tend to make everything into a nail...

Catija

20:34

You should be giving out rasps instead... let them file off all the rough edges.

Petter Friberg

You? or SE?

Catija

Aaron used "you", so I followed suit... it's like the royal "we" the generic "you".

πάντα ῥεῖ

Aaron Hall

"Imagine all the questions... with MCV...E's... You... hoohoo hoo. You may say, I'm a dreamer!"

Petter Friberg

Imagine all question and they don't need MCVE......

Aaron Hall

20:39

"but I'm not the only one!"

Petter Friberg

"Living life in peace…"

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

lol

Hey @Jude, don't take it bad. Take a sad question score, and make it better. Remember to let us into your heart. Then you can start to make it better. — Félix Gagnon-Grenier Sep 6 '17 at 19:25

Aaron Hall

"life is very short, and there's no tihighighighime... for conversations in comments my friends..."

3 hours ago, by Undo

(PHP does not count as a minority group)

Probably a good tag to examine for that context, though...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

2 hours ago, by Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Undo dude.

I did have to consciously make my mind assess this as a joke and not fall into meaningless "all minorities are equal" stuff

wow...

πάντα ῥεῖ

@AaronHall More like a mental desease, yes. But still respectable and relevant Maybe @Machavity can give a statement about this.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

20:49

Please stop.

Aaron Hall

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I'm sure, present company excluded.

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