Tavern on the Meta

4:00 PM

@Nobody I am saving my life here, at Meta SE, Code Review, German Language and a bit of Software Engineers. :3
This site (Meta SE) is the only one I am allowed to chat (wich sometimes can get quite s**king)

hey

yeah, certainly sulking

πάντα ῥεῖ

I've learned to choose my words well :3

If you take a look at this message they sent you:
IMPACT
~2.2m
people reached

user315433

Somebody sent you a message with IMPACT?

πάντα ῥεῖ

you should start to consider that probably :-/

@bro No, that was from my profile. And I am operating with a quite closed circle of interest there.

hey

On Pandemic.SE, it would be bad...

πάντα ῥεῖ

4:09 PM

LOL

rene

4:20 PM

> Not sure you've ever been a problem.

If you can't remember I still have some leeway ;)

TylerH

Does closing a migrated question as a duplicate result in a rejected migration

πάντα ῥεῖ

@rene You're the CCO ;P

rene

@TylerH no, closing as a dup is the only way to close a question and prevent a rejected migration

@TylerH see meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/354350/…

Sonic Wizard

@rene When a migration is rejected, it is not reopened on the origin site. It is still closed as off-topic there.

Besides, the migrations in that question shouldn't even be taking place because don't migrate crap.

user315433

@SonicWizard -1 unwelcoming language

Sonic Wizard

4:33 PM

@bro There's a reason why I posted this here rather than as a comment on that post.

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tpu-

Sonic Wizard

@SmokeDetector tpu-

rene

@SonicWizard sure, but once it gets migrated, lets not send it back

hey

don't crap the migraine

Sonic Wizard

@rene But closing as a duplicate of some random target is the incorrect way to do it.

rene

4:39 PM

@SonicWizard you obviously can't read.

πάντα ῥεῖ

That would be @gnatted

Sonic Wizard

Only two close voters not voting for migration is enough to stop it on Stack Overflow. There, in order to migrate, there needs to be at least four people voting for it.

@rene @bro -1 flags as offensive

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SonicWizard 3, and give them 6-8 whatever to implement it

rene

I might prefer the flag user option anyway

Sonic Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ It's three on most sites, but set to 4 on SO only.

πάντα ῥεῖ

4:41 PM

sd tpu-

yagmoth555

tpu- do what ?

hey

true positive and blacklist the user.... wait, which post?

rene

last smokey report that got removed, within the 2 minute edit grace period

yagmoth555

ah ok! the last one, on hindu

Sonic Wizard

To be honest, I absolutely despise this self-deletion. It's no longer transparent.

hey

4:44 PM

Everything is transparent on Charcoal HQ or MetaSmoke

yagmoth555

ty for the info, as I read that answer and was hoping it got banned, hehe

Sonic Wizard

@hey There's a 5-minute delay before posting on Tavern, and then that room can be inundated with messages quickly, and then I don't know which of the reports is the one that was self-deleted here.

hey

Is there a problem with that?

Anyway, there's a trick to record all the messages using Chrome's (and other browsers?) Developer Tools

Sonic Wizard

I use Edge

Wait a second...ROs can see deleted messages. @rene Can you please RO me?

rene

No

4

hey

4:48 PM

No

Sonic Wizard

@rene Why not?

rene

Because I don't have the faith this will go well.

Sonic Wizard

Why is that?

rene

But there are other RO's and there is staff, try your luck there. If they see no problem, they will give it to you.

Sonic Wizard

Can you please explain in more detail why you're not doing it?

hey

4:51 PM

@SonicWizard OTOH, why do you want to be an RO?

Sonic Wizard

So I can see deleted Smokey posts.

I really hate its self-deletion

NobodyNada

@SonicWizard why not just ask a RO what they are?

hey

that's... the most non convincing reason I've ever heard.

Sonic Wizard

I don't want to inundate ROs with requests

rene

@SonicWizard because I have the feeling you get sometimes stuck in a pattern that you don't seem to snap out, even when you're asked to. That worries me as that might lead to you doing things that have a negative impact on this room.

Sonic Wizard

4:52 PM

What things?

rene

Exactly this

NobodyNada

@SonicWizard why do you need to see them in this room, as opposed to CHQ or Metasmoke?

rene

@SonicWizard watch the charcoal room and you have all the details

Sonic Wizard

8 mins ago, by Sonic Wizard

@hey There's a 5-minute delay before posting on Tavern, and then that room can be inundated with messages quickly, and then I don't know which of the reports is the one that was self-deleted here.

NobodyNada

I don't see why that really matters though

hey

4:54 PM

It seems we're back to 0. Is there any problem with that?

πάντα ῥεῖ

with what specifically? I see many problemz

hey

Or do you doubt the action taken by Taverners?

rene

we're always back to 0 at some point

hey

Back to earth... oh... (suddenly dark topic)

Sonic Wizard

Posts are reported on CHQ immediately, whereas there's a 5-minute delay before they're reported here. During those five minutes, CHQ can be inundated with tons of messages, and then even if I go search which message was posted 5 minutes before the Tavern message, there can be multiple messages posted within the same minute, so I don't know which report is the deleted message (because I can't see it)

@rene What exact things?

NobodyNada

4:57 PM

@SonicWizard why does that really matter though?

hey

You could ask Charcoal HQ to add new information on Meta Smoke like: "forwarded to <name of chat room>" for audit.

jadarnel27

I have solved this problem by having the SmokeDetector chat account in my "ignoring users" list for the last couple years.

Sonic Wizard

Also, if I mistakenly mark a report as false positive, it's immediately self-deleted. This makes it difficult to correct a mistake because I have to go through the above steps.

NobodyNada

@SonicWizard That's being discussed

Sonic Wizard

@NobodyNada I'm the one who's running that survey. The majority of respondents want to keep the existing behavior: immediate self-deletion upon one fp report (even though it could be a mistake or typo).

hey

4:59 PM

Or just install Chrome and use its Developer Tools and log the WebSocket so you will get all the messages which can be read at any times without worrying the deletion (as long as the tab is not refreshed)

Sonic Wizard

@hey I don't use Chrome for several reasons.

Let's not get into that.

hey

fine, your choice.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey Don't be rude please! People might have their reasons why to use specific software and hardware! :3

hey

And regarding that survey... how long will you run it/when will you end it?

Sonic Wizard

I've said this before. It's not compatible with my touchscreen, it makes text and boxes look weird, and most importantly suffers from the WebRTC IP leak flaw, with no way to get around it except through an extension.

(I use a VPN sometimes)

πάντα ῥεῖ

5:02 PM

@hey That nick reads so good :-D ...

Sonic Wizard

@hey I was planning to end it after two weeks, which is two days from now.

There were no responses in the last couple of days.

rene

@SonicWizard like you getting obsessed to know about what exact things. Again, maybe it is just me. Others opinions might differ.

Sonic Wizard

How will my being an RO impact that? You're afraid I'll start kicking users if I don't get explanations?

(Sorry if that came across as a rant)

rene

I'm afraid of many things, yes

Sonic Wizard

I'm an RO of Shadow's Den. I've only kicked once, and that was for valid reason (one user was repeatedly pinging another user over a dozen times).

hey

5:05 PM

@SonicWizard thanks for letting us know :)

Sonic Wizard

Interestingly, fewer people opted for my alternative concession (to postpone self-deletion by a couple of minutes to allow users to correct mistakes, but still self-delete in the end).

hey

Well, Tavern is considered as an "official" chat room of MSE... there's a reason why RO are chosen very specifically by trust.

Sonic Wizard

Given that the overall community consensus is to embrace self-deletion of Smokey messages here as much as possible, and I don't like it

πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey

hey

Someone called me? waving head

πάντα ῥεῖ

5:09 PM

7 mins ago, by πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey That nick reads so good :-D ...

:3

hey

:D

Sonic Wizard

Really? What the heck is there to down vote here? — Joe Friend ♦ 17 mins ago

Joe Friend ranting about one of his posts being downvoted

Anonymous

2

Q: Is the Implicit Association Test effective at determining an individual's biases?

A recent post on the Stack Overflow blog, Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change., discusses the problems that members of marginalized groups may experience when participating on Stack Exchange. Most of the post focuses on how their background may lead them to perceive ...

Anonymous

I guess this is the Stack Exchange way to interrogate that premise.

Sonic Wizard

@user1114 Why did you rename yourself just now?

Anonymous

5:14 PM

When things get to politically heated I sometimes like to use names other than my full real name.

Sonic Wizard

I see you've hidden your other communities on your Skeptics profile. But you're leaking something somewhere.

Your profile still links to jeremy.ca

Anonymous

@SonicWizard ...huh. I guess that's didn't propagate across the network. Thanks, fixed.

Anonymous

but it doesn't need to be perfect, I'm not going to bother updating the network profile.

Sonic Wizard

I was taking that test, but my browser crashed in the middle. And I just happened to be using Chrome that time.

Anonymous

Hmm. 🤔

user5389107

5:17 PM

@user1114 too lazy to dig up sources rn, but afaik there was a whole spiel about it being worthless and the concept being flawed

Sonic Wizard

I guess that's why I was more emotional about my distaste for Chrome just now.

user5389107

Due to how it interprets familiarity as positive bias

Anonymous

My understanding is also that it isn't meant to be accurate at the single-sample level, but only in aggregate, like many scientific tests.

Anonymous

but rather than proclaiming that myself, I will let someone else write an answer so it doesn't just seem like me continuing to rant my personal opinion.

user5389107

I really dont care to get into that debate tbh

user315433

5:19 PM

@user1114 Understandable, but it doesn't take a manual update, only two clicks to sync.

user315433

Which used to be automatic once upon a time...

user315433

And now I have to remember to go there and sync after every name/avatar change.

user5389107

the whole dialogue about this blog post is poisoned already

user315433

I find stormtrooper figurines offensive. Why not just use SS officer figurines?

Anonymous

@bro If I change it there, I'll probably forget to change it back next time. ;)

user315433

5:22 PM

Is Jay implicitly approving the Alderaan genocide?

hey

In the middle of the test... ugh, my eyes...

πάντα ῥεῖ

(no sarcasm, just fullheartedly good luck) — πάντα ῥεῖ 1 min ago

hey

darn, I need to rest my eyes between each round... otherwise, it's nauseating

user315433

5:39 PM

@hey what's the subject

user315433

Or is that a visual acuity test

hey

@bro I think so, the "blink and it's gone" test

user315433

<--- spelled acuity correctly, only googled afterwards to confirm. Go me.

user315433

It still doesn't look like a word to me though.

hey

> Your average rating after pleasant images was 3.7, and your average rating after unpleasant images was 3.7 (a higher average indicates more positive judgments).

uhh... being a rhythm gamer who used to have quick eye-brain reflex helped... maybe...

Undo

5:57 PM

undo's minirant/call-to-action of the day: Give me links to these people who consistently discriminate against any minority group so I can ban the crap out of them.

4

(PHP does not count as a minority group)

3

hey

exclusive to SO?

Undo

Doesn't matter. I can ping people.

hey

I'm not sure some on Hinduism Meta counts...

Undo

Uh, yeah, religion sites are hard. Not willing to fight that battle yet.

yagmoth555

on SF ppl was tolding us we were too rude, we did a meta post to talk the problem, and we tried to be softer, and that worked as I see a lot less rude comment. I think it's something to do per-site, and to get the community together to do

I talk rudeness, but I guess it apply to inclusion

Undo

6:09 PM

You see, inclusion is a much harder argument to sell here than many other places. Inclusion of what is the main question that comes to my mind

"Inclusion" is a word with many meanings. Are we talking about inclusion of $race or $sex? Or are we talking about general 'inclusion of people who ask "bad" questions for one reason or another'?

Shog9

@Undo that's why I prefer "accessibility" as a goal

striving to make the site accessible to more people is worthwhile even if they don't care to use it

Undo

There we go. I like that.

That's a goal that I can see real solutions to. Question templates is a great example.

Shog9

Also...

There's also the curb-cut effect: changes that make the system more accessible to one group can benefit everyone. NYC is kinda infamous for their inaccessible subway stations, going so far as to fund cab fare for disabled persons instead of fixing elevators or installing ramps... Of course, that does nothing for a weary shopper with a basket of groceries or an otherwise-fit person with an unexpected twisted ankle. By targeting specific groups they've given up a much larger potential benefit to everyone. — Shog9 ♦ 3 hours ago

NYC grudgingly accommodates folks with different abilities, but does not try hard to be accessible - and everyone suffers as a result.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Undo dude.

user315433

As someone who spent days reformatting PDF files to be accessible (with a benefit to exactly nobody), instead of doing more productive things, I am reminded of....

user315433

6:22 PM

Apr 23 at 20:52, by Shog9

It's more like... When you're paying for school and paying for housing and making only a little money, and you have to carefully choose what you pay for and when you pay for it.

user315433

And I don't think the D&I focus leads to good choices.

user5389107

@Shog9 Imo SO is already as accessible as it can be without compromising the goal

Everyone can make an account, everyone can post

NobodyNada

I'm a bit discouraged by the attitude toward moderation in the blog post. Moderation on SO often feels like a losing battle against the flood of low-quality questions, and Jay's statement that our moderation efforts "make [him] sad" is honestly really frustrating.

There are problems we can work to solve, like snarky comments, but downvoting duplicate questions is not a problem; it's the design of the site. The blog post really feels like it's optimizing for sand while disparaging the hours of time put in by volunteers.

Undo

At the same time, though, the sand is what's left to optimize. If there's a real problem there, let's at least figure out what it is. Quantify it, define it, and if there's a reasonable fix... why not do it.

user5389107

Well, the latest time it'll be noticed is when people inevitably start to complain about the decline of quality again

Undo

6:28 PM

(the sand might not be all that's left to optimize, but some people feel that way)

user5389107

It's worth remembering that SO is so successful precisely because it's inaccessible and has a culture of adversarial discourse to arrive at the best content

Jon Ericson

@NobodyNada I think what he intended was it made him sad that the system is not well communicated to new users and comes off as harsh even when most users are trying to be kind. It's the misunderstandings (ironically) that bug me.

user5389107

That's not a bug, it's a feature

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@Undo I've had/seen very little success into getting anyone to actually quantify, or even accept that they should quantify, how/why they feel excluded

Undo

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Same. I'm hoping we get some hard examples out of the next few days.

user5389107

6:29 PM

I'm part of two of the "minority groups" people like to trot out as being excluded and it always annoys me

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

fingers crossed

user5389107

It's almost like the ultimate insult

Shog9

@user5389107 that's what "accessibility as a goal" means: that everyone should be able to use the site.

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 :-( I wish it hadn't been framed as part of larger cultural wars.

Shog9

note that this isn't as trivial a goal as it might seem

user5389107

6:31 PM

@JonEricson To put it candidly: The blog post has done a lot more to make me feel unwelcome that any harsh comments have ever

hey

meanwhile, another MSO post on "SO should be more welcoming"...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@user5389107 I think that The Powers That Be™ needed to do a clear statement about this, whatever actually happens on the site. As much as it pains me to say this, public image is something that we can't ignore.

user5389107

I think the blog post could benefit a lot from shifting the tone away from having to infantilize marginalized groups because they're oh so specially excluded. It feels like y'all think we need special help because we can't deal with rude comments or overbearing moderation as if we're extra fragile

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

That's bigger than SE however. Rejecting infantilization is an ongoing battle in most progressive ideals

user5389107

It might be true that for instance people with mental illnesses react poorly to these things but what isn't going to help is to publicly lament how hard we have it as if it's gonna fix anything. Sorry about the tone I'm just really miffed about this. I've always liked that on SO nobody gave me crap for who I am since that's such a deligtful contrast to real life where people really like to dwell on some things I can't change

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

6:34 PM

it's really hard to get right

Undo

@user5389107 Suppose it'd been worded slightly differently: "Stack Overflow can be difficult to 'get right' on the first try to anyone (true), especially those new at programming (true). Let's fix that. And by the way, (insert data) shows that $groups tend to be newer at programming, so this'll probably help them out a lot too"

Better?

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 Yeah. We could stand to listen to people who have made a go of using the site rather than just the people who haven't.

user5389107

It's been very useful in learning to deal with emotions boiling over and "facing the fire" to come out stronger on the other side. I like how I'm not treated like some child in need of special protection here.

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tpu-

user5389107

This has been a caffeine fueled rant by me. I'm sorry

Jon Ericson

6:38 PM

@user5389107 No problem. Did you send feedback to that survey at the end of the blog post? If not, I'd appreciate if you did.

user5389107

Yes I did

hey

@SmokeDetector and someone seems have a vendetta on a certain user

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 Excellent!

NobodyNada

@JonEricson That makes sense to me, and I think perceived hostility of moderation is something we should fix. However, the the wording in the blog post strongly comes across as accusing our actions of being the problem, rather than new users' perception of those actions.

2

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Nobody "rather than new users' perception of those actions." just my thoughts.

hey

6:52 PM

> The real problem isn't the community — it's us (Stack Overflow, the company):

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Jon I am fainthearted. That's a social and cultural problem which is hard to crack.

@hey We're Stack Exchange

hey

The company name is Stack Overflow though...

Meanwhile, in the middle of the negativity, there's a light-hearted post!

7

Q: Stack Overflow Jobs Update - April 2018

It’s been a while since the Jobs team has provided an update! There have been a lot of changes to our team structure and some new features released so it’s a good time to fill you in on what we’ve been up to. Team update For the past couple of years we’ve had two teams dedicated to our Talent (...

discussion jobs

Jon Ericson

@NobodyNada Yeah. I can see that. It's not what Jay intended to communicate, but that doesn't mean that's not how it can across.

user315433

There are valid complaints about unhelpful dupehammering. Although it's possible to ping the dupehammering user to make a case for reopening, one has to be a pro to know that: the username does not autocomplete.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Jon Not to mention all the kudo only forums, where all that noise just ends up in vane.

user315433

7:00 PM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Sure, bad PR when you are about to roll out a new product is very bad PR.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I don't think we are the targeted audience here

user315433

SJW appeasement mostly.

user315433

There isn't much that (severely truncated) SO leadership can do anyway.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

In all fairness, I've also interacted with some people on twitter, after the April Weizen tweet and aftermaths, that were level headed, but that really did seem to be vocal proponents of the "minority says something, this is an absolute truth not to be discussed, let alone asked to be proven"

NobodyNada

@FélixGagnon-Grenier absolutely. This is meant for the non-users who have heard rumors that SO is an unfriendly place

user315433

7:03 PM

Yeah, let's pay some D&I consultant to check the site copy for exclusionary language.

NobodyNada

Someone posts a homework dump, it gets closed, and then they rant about how unfriendly we are every time someone brings up Stack Overflow on Twitter/Reddit/Hacker News. Soon, we start to get a bad reputation on other sites

hey

Would it be feasible/good idea for SO (the company) to conduct a real-life interactive survey by inviting users who don't know about SO/SE at all, then ask to post a scripted good/bad question and ask for their feelings after getting the response from the community?

NobodyNada

@hey I don't think they'd have the same emotional attachment to their questions

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