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7:00 AM
(considering how I ended up finding a job...)
@user5389107 how does one learn to search or debug effectively?
I quite literally had a whole class in uni teaching me to use library resources and google effectively and its served me extremely well.
 
@JourneymanGeek Yep, our college has such a course too
It's called the "undergraduate signature course"
 
@SonicWizard do they do referencing too?
 
ya, same thing then
 
You can choose your signature course in any subject you want. They are quite diversified.
 
7:02 AM
Asking questions and posting answers? 8 years on and I still have times where I mess up.
 
@JourneymanGeek In my case I came across several questions where people gave advice like using a debugger to see where your code fails so it got me searching about how to use the one I was at
 
Imagine someone who has literally just stumbled in on a site. They don't have the benefit of a classical education in using a search engine...
 
Then I saw more comments about searching in google or SO search first and suddenly 90% of my questions resolved themselves in 10s or so
Which enabled me to be several times faster then without knowing this
 
(In fact, I think there's a broader problem of tech education being designed around marketability and quantity over real technical skills, but that's not our problem)
 
7:06 AM
@SmokeDetector tp-
 
@user5389107 ah, but see, learning to search is learned behaviour.
there was a curve
 
@JourneymanGeek Common Core
 
@SonicWizard I was thinking the Kali Crew, or folks who code dump on a deadline.
 
I'm an odd case because literally 100% of my programming skill comes from SO and google
 
I learnt the stuff I know around solving issues I wanted solved
 
7:08 AM
@JourneymanGeek It was a set of new standards for K-12 education here in the U.S. to unify the state-specific standards, and early drafts of those standards were derided for that very reason
 
@JourneymanGeek Yes but SO is already good at teaching you this
Try asking an easily searchable question, people will tell you to search
From then on it's only whether you're open to criticism and willing to improve
 
hah. I'm not on SO
@SonicWizard Oh more broadly!
 
hey
The difference between asking with other colleague and SO is, the first doesn't really have a problem
 
No amount of inclusivity is going to save bad and new developers from the realization that they need to shape up and get good
 
7:10 AM
maan, that's so dark.
Practically randian.
 
hey
... from having a chatty conversation to clear up the question
 
Well yeah it's not very humane but it's a fundamental truism about the profession
Code doesn't care about you as a person, it works or it doesn't
 
Maybe I'm not going into a tech career. Maybe I'm just learning coding on the side, because I'm old and retired, or have a hobbyist interest in it. And I need help because I can't understand something.
 
hey
(fat fingered Enter key)
 
@user5389107 Code is inherently impersonal, but we as humans can fill in that gap.
 
7:12 AM
Coding is a cold and unpersonal profession because it has to be. There is no emotion in it. Your code doesn't care if there's 2 weeks of your sweat and hobbyist tears in it or if you whipped it up in 20 minutes out of boredom
 
@user5389107 if code answered your questions sure.
Oh maaaan.
Dude, so darned dark.
Its a craft. You're building a thing
 
It's quite contrary to our very human sides isn't it
 
Looks like the meta's exploded. I wish they would close vote stuff on main as eagerly as they want to join the discussion
 
Sure your wood will splinter, your table saw will chop off your hand...
 
The report I'm working on right now doesn't really care if I had 2 mental breakdowns about making barcodes on it work for edge cases
 
7:13 AM
but the thing you make is the thing you make
 
It's going to be the same report as if I had done it in an hour
 
.... wait, is that magisch?
 
yes, that is me
 
DUDE. HOW ARE YOU?
I thought you had gone?
 
failing at keeping away from this site
I need to use it every day anyways
It's a vicious cycle
 
So, my view is, SO fills a niche.
and that is that well, code needs meat to write it
and meat is sometimes weak.
 
Especially tex.stackexchange because I think latex has a personal vendetta against me at this point
 
@user5389107 as odd as it may be, having fun's the trick
 
Well yeah
 
Maybe I have rose tinted lenses but SU kept me going when I didn't have a degree, doubted myself and just needed to know I wasn't useless.
 
hey
7:16 AM
Heh, and I have a personal vendetta with web based development...
 
But programming in general isn't about fun. It's about making it work. It doesn't care if you have problems or emotions, for all the computer cares you might aswell not exist. I think SO succeeds because it works with that. The only thing a computer respects is giving it exactly what it needs to do in the way you need it to do it.
And your bosses won't cut you slack either, they want results
 
hmm
Oh, man. Dark.
There's a lot of folk who find joy in their work. Or in community.
I mean, on SU, we deal with computers too, and less technical people
 
Well yeah. It is. There's a reason tech has an inclusivity problem. It's a high pressure environment. Leaning on your analogy of earlier, you throw the baby into the snow because the entire planet is snow and there's no bonfire anywhere
 
but there's a certain joy for many in solving a problem
 
hey
Well, those who were writing open sources project certainly doing for fun
 
7:18 AM
@user5389107 naw, spartans.
On the other hand the fins put their babies out in the cold in cardboard boxes.
 
Unless you have a talent and inclination for it you just won't succeed without really hard work
 
Well, you ought to have that
 
I'm honestly sad when I see people trying to get others into programming when they know these others won't suceed at any stretch. At that point letting people believe they have a shot is just cruel
 
hmm
I do think to a certain extent, that's cyclic
but I'm indian. we're the worst about that
 
user202362
in which the case, programming language should be improved instead
 
hey
7:22 AM
A.i. based programming language
 
@user5389107 its just as true with security (clueless kali users) or many other things
 
I know i'll never be a cryptographer
 
@TelKitty if you're suggesting more "user-friendly" programming languages...those don't usually work out too well -- AppleScript for example
 
Does the field of cryptography have an inclusivity problem because people will tell me I need to be better at math to have a go?
 
@user5389107 folks are convinced using kali makes em hackers
@user5389107 more, if you have two people with the same skill level or lackthere of, shouldn't they be treated the same?
Or should one get treated better cause their name is male, or their ava is a small dog...
 
hey
7:23 AM
Nah... In the future we just need to speak to Quack Overflow something and the program will be written by the computer itself
 
The harsh reality of the world is that sometimes people need to realize that they don't have the chops for something. It's something that everyone has to learn eventually. Better early then after struggling through a degree
@JourneymanGeek obviously yes
I don't think anyone's debating that
 
and that's what folks in SE were talking about.
@user5389107 I couldn't get a job without a degree
 
I don't have a degree but a completed apprenticeship
 
hey
Okay, time to have a company meeting... afk
 
and I earn less than a local degree holder, and people wouldn't hire me anyway.
 
7:25 AM
All of my coworkers just were good at coding and got hired at some point
 
user202362
I care about what the efficiency a programming language could bring to human kind directly and indirectly. My ultimate goal for coding is not to cater my like of coding, nor because I am fond of problem solving. I code because I think I can make a useful product with it. 'Useful' when all thing considered.
 
Wait, you're no longer at that odd factory?
 
I switched jobs some time ago yeah
 
7:27 AM
though not very far. Same town, different small business
 
I don't think programming is for everyone
Its not for me.
 
Programming is for almost no-one
I'm not even sure its for me
 
heh
I know some people who love programming
I have a friend who goes "oh hang on" then throws together a little app to solve some annoying program I have
 
one of my coworkers literally outputs 4x as much as I do
Seems like he doesn't even think, just starts writing
 
7:31 AM
@user5389107 I read that as he doesn't even drink ...
bad mind, mind is bad
 
Makes me feel like I should leave programming to better people, even though my boss is very satisfied with my output
 
@rene is that a ballmer peak joke?
@user5389107 sounds like you're suffering from a bad case of imposter syndrome.
clearly you have qualities that makes you valuble to your organisation.
 
Thats the problem with a competitive nature. You see other people doing much better and think "well what's the point then"
 
well, that feels defeatist. And you're always the person you're trying to be better than.
Not anyone else.
 
It's a mental health problem I'm in therapy for, so
 
7:41 AM
heh. I guess that's good?
I just deal with a lot of people who're down about themselves and ... heh, trying to help's gotten into a habit ;p
 
7:54 AM
@ShadowWizard had a couple dozen SE tabs open and that's it
It's also been on without being turned off for four days by now, though, so I'm guessing that's more to blame.
 
@Mithrandir don't underestimate the power of the SE cryptocurrency mining scripts.
 
Unicoin!
 
8:18 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Google Analytics with Salesforce by Himanshu Rana on salesforce.SE
 
@user5389107 Have you seen the Hindi movie "3 Idiots"?
 
why would he? ;p
 
I suggest watching it
 
I don't watch movies out of my own volition
I find books infinitely more interesting
 
8:20 AM
I'm asking you to watch it. It's thus not out of your own volition.
 
I'm at work right now so maybe later
 
8:48 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly dots in answer: Error when using MAX in Apache Pig (Hadoop) by user51260 on datascience.SE
 
@bro I'm not a fan of implicit bias test and even the authors admit they're entirely meaningless and unscientific
So yeah
 
@JonEricson Hello? Have you got any news about that? :)
 
@user202729 It's currently late at night in Burbank (his location).
 
anyway, you woke him up ....
 
user202362
he puts you on blacklist then goes back to his sleep
 
9:36 AM
YOU FOOL YOU HAVE DOOMED US ALL!
(or at least someone's sleep patterns)
 
@SonicWizard Then the ping would just turn into a inbox notification. No worries.
 
9:53 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in body: Contact Form 7 "Sender's message failed to send" Error by Mugdho Sapiens on wordpress.SE
 
I wonder, what if MSE questions were listed in HNQ?
 
10:10 AM
@SonicWizard utter doom and drama.
also
@user5389107 if you are actually going to be backish, old username and ava please. Its too damned confusing otherwise.
 
FYI Shadow has already discussed this with them.
 
10:34 AM
We woke Jon again ...
Let the man sleep ....
 
Who knows? Maybe his sleep patterns are just like mine?
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: How many times can I sharpen a planer blade? by icrazywood on woodworking.SE
 
@Derpy moderate the content not the user ... oh ... oh boy ... nvm
 
@rene you should by now know that I have given up the fight to have simple spammers account deleted. They don't care.
But I will still point out the most offending ones.
 
I'll reregister that, thanks
 
@SonicWizard You don't have code privileges, but I've created PR#2106 for you.
 
!!/watch anushkaaggarwal\.in
 
11:12 AM
@SonicWizard You don't have code privileges, but I've created PR#2107 for you.
 
11:37 AM
Is this intentional or a bug? hinduism.meta.stackexchange.com/q/1305/5212
 
Grace period edits are shown as answered. Right?
 
On the home page
 
@SonicWizard hmm?
 
11:45 AM
2 hours ago, by Journeyman Geek
@user5389107 if you are actually going to be backish, old username and ava please. Its too damned confusing otherwise.
 
@SonicWizard also in the post
@SonicWizard oh. Well name can't be changed for a month, but avatar can...
 
@ShadowWizard So then let @JourneymanGeek know!
 
@SonicWizard he knows! :)
 
Then why did he send such a shortsighted message? :)
 
I thought the initial username could be changed?
 
12:01 PM
@Catija Did you come up with anything?
 
@SonicWizard Bennett likes frozen waffles? (Still frozen)
 
8 hours ago, by Catija
Meh... maybe I'll come up with somethign while I"m sleeping.
I was referring to that
 
@SonicWizard I know. I'm too confused by the frozen waffle thing, though.
Apparently I also said "somethign" and "I"m". :/
 
I'm no pedant
 
Sometimes, a rough outline is all the Team needs to find a better solution. I've found that spending too much effort on details can be a waste as they're rarely implemented as expected.
I'd be somewhat surprised if no one had come up with this in the past, though.
 
12:12 PM
But the fact is that we'll lose quite a bit of transparency if we hide vote scores.
@Catija Trader Joe's?
 
@SonicWizard nah, HEB. We don't ever go to Trader Joe's.
 
What's wrong with it?
 
@SonicWizard I'm not sure about that part. My current grand scheme is focused on resetting a negatively scoring question to zero when reopened.
 
Reminds me of one thing:
10
Q: If you accidentally post a question before you mean to and it gets downvoted, what should you do?

pfgI recently posted a question and soon after realized I shouldn't've posted it yet. It very quickly got a downvote and from what I know you shouldn't delete a downvoted question and repost it. What should I do in the future if I ever do this again?

 
@SonicWizard Not going doesn't imply there's something wrong... we have our habits for shopping and that's not one. I don't even know where one is.
 
12:19 PM
Searching really quickly, it appears there are three in Austin: two in the south and one in the north
 
... anyway, have to get ready for work.
 
@Catija The one up north is by the Costco near PRC
 
@Catija That would be horribly open to abuse
Imagine someone auto-closing their own q as a wildly inappropriate duplicate just so they have a better case for getting it reopened when people who voted have moved on since
 
@user5389107 easy solution is to exclude self dupes. If the OP agrees it's a duplicate, it shouldn't be reopened.
 
and another possible candidate for deletion, this time on SE. . Really, no way to report them in bulk?
 
12:31 PM
You can also exploit that externally
Edit your question to be a different dupe
Or not a dupe but still bad
 
@Derpy maybe a github gist and link to it from a custom flag?
 
@rene how would that work? I mean - one could use that to give them the list but...
a) will it actually be considered worth the time and processed (trad: will someone actually delete those users?)
b) how would you track which users they have deleted and which others they processed but deemed worthy to live?
(Note: if they don't agree to delete an account, you need to know that to avoid reporting it again)
 
@Derpy it is far from ideal. I only respond to your report them bulk how that really works out didn't cross my mind
 
@rene I know, to be fair that was just a rhetorical question meant to annoy a certain dog.
 
@Derpy In the Trogdor room we use a Google sheet to organize a mass action request to mods and they update what they handled. But that is on request of the mods.
@Derpy Oh, I'm not good at rhetorical things
 
12:47 PM
@rene but that is for content moderation. This is something we are still doing.
 
yeah, I know
 
"Account moderation" instead is often forgotten, especially when it is easy to look the other way (trad: abusive users that didn't post any content).
 
hey
Today's tiring day...
 
@hey you could try to stir up some free drama about some "SE user base isn't nice" article posted somewhere.
or ask about that deleted/destroyed/suspended/something user on Drupal
or maybe try and ask who Lazlo was.
you have many choices.
I think @TelKitty publications should provide many suggestions about how to start a chat room witches hunt. :p
 
hey
I'll replace my tires first
 
12:58 PM
@Catija yummy
@hey I heard beer is good to build some solid tires... 🍺 ;-)
 
1:16 PM
@ShadowWizard oh, thanks for reminding. I have to put beer in the fridge
 
hey
On the other hand.. I think I'll remix/rearrange/whatever an old song from Chip's Challenge...
(that's the original song)
 
@Derpy Not that they don't care (after a while they would get IP ban right?), but there are too many spammers.
(I guess)
 
hey
delvote it away~!
 
complete
 
It's possible to delete without close first? Or just for moderators?
 
hey
only mods
normally, questions need to be closed and -3 to be eligible for delete vote
and that's why some reasonably-looking-but-awfully-off-topic questions are downvoted untill -3 for quick deletion
 
1:43 PM
ah, good to know, was wondering why -3 seemed a cap on bad question
 
Off topic are not reasonably looking. Ever.
 
@hey though this behavior is something Shog has explicitly said is not OK
Though it was more directed toward Roomba deletion, I can't imagine it wouldn't apply to manual deletion, too
 
hey
That's my experience on some sites, like anime identification request on anime.se (was on-topic, due to crap quality, decided to be off-topic later)
so... only Science Fiction & Fantasy still accepts identification request. Movies & TV and Anime & Manga have stopped supporting them.
 
heh, the only place I do downvotes for closing is MSE
and those arn't very reasonable
Otherwise, I'd much rather flag
 
@Derpy Because there are no way to flag on users. We need a way to flag such offensive users.
 
1:52 PM
@user202729 That's one of those thing that's sadly unlikely to happen in the current climate
if the site mods think its an issue too you can inform them, but it dosen't scale all that good
 
@JourneymanGeek Why | Have anyone posted a feature request on meta?
 
@user202729 well, profile spam dosen't seem to be a major issue for folks.
 
@SonicWizard (and what happened?)
 
He was OK with it
 
and I think unless something happens that literaly, seriously affects SO's bottomline, the big focus is still on enterprise.
 
hey
1:59 PM
@user202729 absolutely
 
@user202729 If you want to delete without a score of -3, there is a 48-hour waiting period after closure, after which the vote score criterion no longer applies, and the minimum rep to VTD decreases from 20k to 10k
@TylerH I think he'd be fine with it here, since his objective is to ensure blatantly off-topic questions are deleted as quickly as possible. In fact, if he comes across one, he deletes it immediately.
 
2:20 PM
> Also, I garden.
someone likes flowers?
 
hey
2:37 PM
/o/
 
@SonicWizard I didn't understand that. Who was OK with what?
 
128
Q: Turbocharging the Roomba: solutions for premature deletion

Shog9A couple weeks ago, I asked for help: How can we stop premature deletion? And I got some fantastic responses. A big thanks to everyone who participated in that discussion - you're the reason I don't completely hate Meta Stack Overflow. The big takeaways from that discussion were: Show users t...

 
hey
(awkward silence)
 
no no, that's over on the other server.
 
2:52 PM
@hey oh, that's interesting
and I think a bad decision...
 
@TylerH that they accept them, or that they don't?
 
Nicely played @JeremyBanks ... nicely played ...
 
@JourneymanGeek that they don't accept them
 
2:59 PM
I think identification requests are some of the more appropriate questions for sites like SciFi and Movies
 
I think folks in those communities foind them problematic
 
hey
scrap that specific meta question, just browse the related meta posts
 
But I also think sites like SciFi should get their privilege thresholds upped by a whole factor
It's an interesting discussion; the metrics of quality vary wildly from site to site
 
hey
Yes, the metrics of quality vary with users' age.
 
I think that's a red herring
 
3:02 PM
@TylerH that would be... unpopular
 
What makes a quality anime question? I'm a pretty experienced user of multiple sites but I can totally understand the problem of the recent blog post when I think about asking a question on the Anime site with a concern for 'quality'. Obviously things like spelling and grammar matter, and being able to point out some specific details, but what else?
 
I think moving the goalposts kind of makes it harder
@TylerH that's why community helps
I asked a question on skeptics. Folks did a load of work to help bring it up to their standards
 
@JourneymanGeek Well yeah no one likes their toys getting taken away. I don't expect it to happen, I just muse over the fact that really inane questions or answers will get 100+ upvotes on that site
@JourneymanGeek That's ideal
If only we did that kind of work on SO
 
Which reminds me of another problem I wanted to address in Jay's blog post... the quote "Users aren’t “too lazy” to search; searching takes less work than posting."
 
3:04 PM
@TylerH that's kind of the ideal
snort
 
I want to know what kind of searches he has been doing that are easier than asking a new question because trying to use SO's search is like NP hard
 
You do know the old joke about how its easier to start typing a question and use its suggested dupes than to use search right?
 
oh yes
 
haha
 
also, posting needs less thinking
 
user315433
3:05 PM
@TylerH Movies banned ID requests: the tour (as did Anime earlier). SciFi still accepts them.
 
@JourneymanGeek that's a decent example but maybe one that should be discounted... you had help from one person (a moderator) and you are a well known moderator of another network site... how much similar luck would a true new network user have?
@bro Yes... I'm aware.
 
user315433
This is what I get for reading from bottom up...
 
@TylerH I was actually considering posting that as aibobot... ;p
@TylerH I had someone do major edits to one of my posts pre-mod-ship
but alas, I've never been particularly low profile on the network
 
But do you have a Stack Overflow coffee mug?
That's the real measure of Stack Exchange fame
 
I have a super user coffee mug
for hitting 100k
 
hey
3:08 PM
Too many questions from unlicensed series (reading/watching on questionable sites), and given that anime and manga originated from Japan, some scenes are like a needle in a haystack; only those who have read/watched themselves can answer them.
 
*grumble grumble wish there was a SE store still *
@hey I figured that would be the entire point of having a site specialized in anime rather than just Movies & TV...
 
quite a lot of people do
I'll see if i can hit 100k on meta ;p
 
but what do I know :-) I'm sure there are plenty of other things to ask about, like how powerful is Madara Uchiha, really?
 
hey
Well, that's also a problem for my taste, but I joined late~
 
I wonder how much traffic a sub-site like Anime & Manga -> Anime & Manga Identification Requests would get
It's true though that identification requests are hard to reconcile with the point of SE sites in general, which is to make useful Q&As for other people... ID requests are pretty much always one-offs for the person asking
 
3:14 PM
@ShadowWizard Living the dream. And you?
I think Jeremy is getting in trouble.
 
Seems to be, yes
 
@JourneymanGeek Just another 64k to gain. That should be doable ;P
 
user315433
@user1114 Not sure if you care, but your network profile still has the old username/info because it does not sync automatically.
 
3:30 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ maybe another 4 years
 
What if the incoming rate of valiid questions goes up? (these times now could well provoke that)
@TylerH Hi! LTNS
 
@πάνταῥεῖ o/
 
 
hey
@Feeds 😑
 
Sometimes I believe there's some AI behind them and decides what to pull in :-)
 
user315433
3:36 PM
@Feeds Lat/Long of the spot pls. How large is it?
 
user315433
McKissick Island (also known as McKissick's Island) is a former 5,000 acre island in the Missouri River that is part of Nemaha County, Nebraska, United States, but is now east of Nebraska's normal eastern border and can only be reached by land from Nebraska by first going through Iowa and Missouri. It is sometimes described as a Nebraska enclave within Missouri, although it is not a true enclave, since it is physically attached to Nebraska through the river.A dispute over whether Missouri or Nebraska had jurisdiction was determined in a 1904 United States Supreme Court decision that was not formally...
 
hey
get ready for HNQ from Travel.SE!
aww...
 
@Feeds a rare typo in the tooltip
 
hey
PUNdit
 
@TylerH Oh?
 
3:39 PM
@TylerH I see puns; I don't see typos
 
Same
 
pieracy is a pun, not a typo :-D
 
So is marinaritime laws.
 
user315433
> Most of the island's land was under 2 to 10 feet of water during the 2011 Missouri River Flood
 
user315433
That does not leave much room for committing crimes.
 
3:41 PM
oh
see I didn't get it because no one refers to pizza as pie anymore
because it's pizza
 
Don't tell a NYer that...
 
user315433
Me neither; but Randall is apparently a fan of That's Amore
 
@bro I prefer 1814 :p
 
user315433
Yes, I remembered he referenced the song twice, could not find the other one.
 
@bro Can't you commit crimes on boats?
 
3:52 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ did you read the hover text? it'd be pieracy!
 
Of course I've read it :P
 
user315433
Hm, a crime committed in the middle of a river separating two states....
 
@NobodyNada o/ LTNS
 
@πάνταῥεῖ \o, how have you been? We haven't been in the same chat rooms for a while :)
 
@bro interstate crime - becomes federal and the FBI takes over
 

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