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6:00 PM
That's my point.
@TylerH If this was normal chat, I as a mod could ban everyone in the room then doctor everybody's posts to make it look like they said bad things. I'd call that too much power.
@randal'thor A meta room for each room, perhaps? That could be perfect for a large-ish site's main room
@TIPS because they're a mod.
I still think that we could solve 80-90% of this if we just got some objective guidelines for what chat moderation should look like.
@randal'thor We have a slack for that in the SOCVR. That way we can keep on the same page
6:00 PM
They did so amicably and came to the conclusion "take it to the site meta".
And I'm not saying we should take the mod's power away.
@randal'thor I agree of course. The issue rearing its head here is that moderators, when elected, get some training
Coordination, conversation, and collaboration can make moderation mostly unnecessary as the participants welcome, support and guide new users through positive example.
ROs can just be appointed willy-nilly
This room was placed in timeout for 20 seconds; the topic of this room is "MY GOD, IT'S FULL OF STARS! Wheel of blame link bolted on for your ease of use: jsfiddle.net/Ldvwp8uv/12/embedded/result/"; - conversation should be limited to that topic.
We're at time. Thanks for joining us, everyone. I think this was awesome and way more productive (or at least easier to follow) than last time. I'll have the transcript wrapped up into a conversation in a minute and will drop a link in here. In the meantime, we encourage you all to keep tossing these ideas around and thinking out loud on Meta, for your benefit and for the greater community's. Thanks!
6:01 PM
@TylerH But shouldn't be
@ThaddeusHowze This feels like a business motto
I like it
eh? I'm missing the transcript :(
BTW, much more discussion of this topic can be found on Meta:
Q: Toward a philosophy of Chat

Shog9TL;DR: The Problem This keeps happening in chat: Surprise at flags on vulgar messages. Language that would invariably get your comments deleted on the main site occasionally gets flagged and deleted in chat. Confusion reigns. Controversial topics leading to bickering and name-calling. Folks b...

@wizzwizz4 If a mod did that they'd have their diamond stripped as soon as it came to light.
Could we get a list of the top starred messages, from most to least?
6:01 PM
@WadCheber So what can you do to change that?
OK, I'm heading for a answer which is a dupe of some post which is a dupe of some other post about giving RO's some credit.
. . . in a minute.
@TylerH Elect ROs where possible.
Case in point: in the html/css room on SO, they used to just set everyone as a RO after they'd become a room regular. There's still like 20 ROs there
@TylerH Which is why I and others have been calling for mini-elections for ROs of a site's main chatroom. Then ROs, once elected, can be taken into that private Chat Moderation room and given an idea of their new powers and responsibilities by the mods.
So, ideas: what could we do to make RO powers more effective? They're pretty underpowered right now.
6:02 PM
@ArtOfCode Kicks are powerful.
@ArtOfCode Extraordinary rendition.
So, sounds like for chat we just need more cool headed moderators. Call them... smooth moderators.
I would think, that the main rooms of the site might benefit from RO elections. Other rooms are mostly insignificant in SE's (only the biggest ones and SO are a different story).
@Undo Only when applied correctly, which most RO's don't actually know how to do.
@Oded please can we diamond @ArtOfCode on SO chat?
6:02 PM
@ArtOfCode 1. Set kickmute duration. 2. Edit comments.
@TIPS "main rooms" ?
A room which five people have met since its existence doesn't need RO elections.
@Undo if only it worked like that :/
@WadCheber edit comments? Whose comments?
@TylerH The first rooms of the sites.
6:03 PM
@Oded smootherators, if you will
@Oded It's okay, you can give me a full diamond too ;)
@TylerH All.
SO is a different story, as I said.
@TIPS So just the first room to ever be made?
@TIPS Sure, but once it gets to a certain size and business ...
6:03 PM
Like mods can.
@ArtOfCode go get elected first ;)
@ArtOfCode just get elected
@WadCheber moderators can edit other peoples' comments?
that is awful
@WadCheber (1) I like. (2) I also like but there are more implications ("putting words in people's mouths")
@TylerH That works, or there could be a "main room" flag settable by mods
6:03 PM
@randal'thor Which most rooms that size don't.
I want a ruby or sapphire that says "You got nothing, but you tried"
@TylerH yep
@TylerH Yes, but each message has a public history
There should be a reason more people visit a room.
6:04 PM
@ArtOfCode If you don't trust the RO, he/she shouldn't be RO.
@Undo won't you just suspend him immediately for approving bad edits to chat messages?
@BenN ...which we can erase
@Shog9 hah! yep
Okay, first call to action, feature request to remove the option for moderators to edit other peoples' messages
because why
@TylerH Useful for redacting things that should not be, without deleting the message outright.
@Shog9 Some people have no appreciation for art.
6:04 PM
Perhaps a "mod redacts history" entry should be added to the history when that happens
@TylerH because it's actually useful
@TylerH For when you don't need to delete but need to clean.
Maybe put a edit history on those for CMs only

MSE Town Hall #2: Chat moderation (Part 1)

1 hour ago, 28 minutes total – 128 messages, 21 users, 61 stars

Bookmarked 57 secs ago by hairboat

Redaction is something that could be useful but it should not be done in the form of a normal edit
6:05 PM
I've used it several times for calming down a conversation quietly.
I see the potential for some seriously insidious abuse there

MSE Town Hall #2: Chat moderation (Part 2)

35 mins ago, 30 minutes total – 343 messages, 30 users, 127 stars

Bookmarked 24 secs ago by hairboat

@TylerH In SO's case, big enough rooms, which are like, 50 (?) would get elections.
But then again
6:05 PM
@TylerH I've used this effectively on numerous occasions for handling flagged messages that were... Crude and offensive but perhaps unintentionally so.
@TylerH I've edited users messages to remove borderline offensive content, in order to keep the chat positive and avoid escalation into flagging.
It should be a unique option that only gives moderators the ability to black out/obfuscate certain words
sorry I am late
they're moderators, so the chance of that is fairly remote
@Rincewind Hullo!
6:05 PM
@TylerH For that time I posted my password in chat accidentally because the wrong window was active...
Anyway, I certainly don't think a RO should get that option
@TIPS hello!
Change your password?
@Shog @hairboat am I the only person who thinks one hour isn't enough?
@Catija eh, yeah change your password
6:05 PM
@Magisch edit history exists for everyone now; why restrict it?
PEBCAK issue
so how does this work?
Chatting is a hot topic.
@Magisch If mods are going to be insidious, they shouldn't be mods.
@Magisch The extant system is also fully tracked, visibly so, so that if any abuse did happen, it's pretty obvious and action against abusers can be taken.
6:06 PM
@TylerH I also ask mods to correct grammar mistakes in comments I made two minutes or more earlier.
@Shog9 oh thats a thing
@TIPS nope
@TIPS hour two involves joining me in a hangout and drinking
alright then
@WadCheber yeah but we aren't trying to solve personal problems here (no offense)
6:06 PM
@Magisch I'm sure there already is one.
@Shog9 Two is too much. I was thinking 75 to 90 minutes.
@Shog9 Heh, almost forgot that happened
@TylerH It was a joke.
@TylerH Doesn't mean I want it sitting around in chat for posterity.
6:06 PM
@Shog9 Only beer or does ice tea work?
The point is, editing is useful.
@TylerH You know mods can edit other people's comments on main site too?
A Long Island Iced Tea is a type of alcoholic mixed drink typically made with tequila, vodka, light rum, triple sec, gin, and a splash of cola, which gives the drink the same amber hue as its namesake. It is so named because of the resemblance to the color and taste of iced tea. A popular version mixes equal parts vodka, gin, tequila, rum, and triple sec with 1½ parts sour mix and a splash of cola. Most variants use equal parts of the main liquors, but include a smaller amount of triple sec (or other orange-flavored liqueur). Close variants often replace the sour mix with lemon juice, replace the...
Some topics take more mental stuff and exhaust you more.
Others less.
It wouldn't hurt to let ROs do it too.
6:07 PM
@Catija We have a redaction system to obliterate a message in that case, yeh?
I'm afraid im not about that alcohol
@randal'thor I made that assumption when people said they could edit messages in chat
@WadCheber I think it would be OK to let RO's edit messages as long as there was at least a note on the message saying who edited/redacted it
@Magisch you could go for DMSO and invite kenorb
@GraceNote so to be clear the redaction option for moderators is already a separate thing from the edit option?
6:07 PM
@WadCheber without full elections, I'm afraid it might. There is some serious abuse potential there.
@BenN I think that makes sense.
@GraceNote Yes. That was what I was trying to explain. The question was "why do mods have the ability to edit chat messages"... it was an example.
@Rincewind If you are here for the Town Hall, you missed by an hour. What you see now is the wrap up and trailing conversations. To catch up, take a look at the two most recent bookmarks which contains the transcript of the Town Hall
@TylerH Yes
So why the need to edit then?
6:08 PM
@Shog9 I vote sulfuric acid. IN YOUR FACE YOU CASUAL DIRT
sometimes I think
I go to SE to procrastinate
@ArtOfCode I already said 1. ROs should be elected where possible. 2. If the RO can't be trusted, the RO shouldn't be RO.
@TylerH Redaction is deletion
@Magisch Other times you don't?
It removes the post completely and obliterates the history
6:08 PM
@WadCheber I mean full elections, like mods have. Not just meta threads.
What do the people who work at SE do? You're literally working at programmer procrastination headquarters
As opposed to editing, which modifies a portion and leaves history, and deletion, which removes it from the transcript but allows viewable history.
@GraceNote So calling it 'redaction' is a misnomer then
Sometimes only part of the post is a problem... if you can edit, you can remove the "bad" part, the remainder of the post can live.
@WadCheber Would this mean that insignificant, small and temporary rooms don't get RO's?
6:08 PM
@WadCheber (2) Yeah, but the process of installing an RO is way easier than a mod.
Actually, I'm not convinced that would be a lack.
@WadCheber It might if someone became RO who wasn't really trustworthy. Like that Cheber guy who didn't get elected properly as RO ;-)
@TIPS I think it would mean the first person to create it becomes RO
@Catija I've asked for that to be used on my messages at times, usually for editing a pinned message (because editing it myself has a 2 min limit...)
I'd want to trust an RO before they were powerful, with a full election, rather than having to de-owner them and clean up a mess.
6:09 PM
And sometimes I've seen it used to remove problematic oneboxes
@Shog9 how about this instead? drinksmixer.com/drink8076.html
I find the process by which ROs are added to The Tavern quite effective.
@TIPS It might make sense to have a special kind of RO for main chat rooms.
@bluefeet It has tequila...
They should be elected.
6:09 PM
@Shog9 is that raise a glass with shog?
@WadCheber I'm with you.
Random secondary rooms should have the current system.
@Catija it has a wide variety of things in it.
it sounds like the "do we trust ROs?" thing varies a lot, so maybe giving mods the power to grant ROs extra powers would be the most thorough solution
@Bob Yeah. I've done the same. Fortunately, most of the rooms I'm in have mods available who can edit stuff... and I don't need it now.
6:10 PM
@WadCheber What about when the main chatroom is tiny (e.g. on a new site like A&C)?
Suggested edit: for sufficiently large main chatrooms.
@randal'thor Beta sites are an enigma to me.
@randal'thor New sites usually have CM's buzzing around, yes?
@Andy Ai... I thought it was eight not seven.... sorry!
Why not split chat rooms into two kinds? "Community" chatrooms with elected moderators/owners and personal, temporary, 'conversation between two users about a post' chat rooms?
@BenN Private betas do.
6:11 PM
@BenN Only until mods get elected or if there's serious drama, I think.
the trilogy sites also have cms buzzing around
@randal'thor You're so obsessed with us... :P
there is just alot more space to buzz around in
@TylerH This.
@Oded out of curiosity, how much dev work would chat-only moderators be?
6:12 PM
@Catija What's this AC site? Did you know about electricity and I didn't know?
They'd probably have to be per-site too
I'll make you do my physics homework.
@TIPS Arts&Crafts
@Shog9 Meaning "if I'm on mobile and someone's making trouble, add a room owner"?
6:12 PM
@TylerH Agree. Not all rooms are created equal.
@ArtOfCode I suspect you'd have to shut off the automatic parent profile sync
@Catija Hey, I like the site - what's wrong with that? (I'm even higher up the rep leagues there than on SFF!)
@randal'thor Doesn't take much, considering the traffic.
@Shog9 I don't want you people to know what I look like!!!
6:13 PM
@Undo yeah... I wonder how hard that is
@WadCheber so turn off your camera.
@ArtOfCode depends on what you mean by that. Elections included or not?
"Hangout? *click* oh, needs chrome/plugin"
@Shog9 see I would, but I still don't have a working mic
@Shog9 I'm a chef, not an astrophysicist.
6:14 PM
Could also just... not have a webcam
@Oded He just wants an SO diamond ;)
@Catija True, but still.
@Oded either shrug. I was thinking chosen by site moderators, actually, but there's a case for elections too.
@WadCheber Dammit, Jim ...
@Oded Perhaps "unofficial" elections in a meta topic, like for appointed mods?
6:14 PM
Also, I don't want you people to know what I sound like.
@WadCheber so turn mic off
@WadCheber We already do.
54 secs ago, by Wad Cheber
@Shog9 I'm a chef, not an astrophysicist.
@WadCheber button at top of page that looks like a camera/mic. Click it.
@WadCheber Hey, if you have a Google account you've already got further than me, so ...
6:15 PM
Is this hangout interesting enough to join?
... that sounds really snobbish... :P
@hichris123 There's only one way to find out ♪
@hichris123 Depends on how interesting you find the people in it to be.
It was pretty interesting last time round :)
@hichris123 There's a guy in a cowboy hat
That would probably be Shog?
6:16 PM
@WadCheber ok, stop being coy.
@hichris123 ;)
@CreationEdge Well, at least there's no table jumping going on...
Heh, thanks chat. Just got Outspoken here.
Dear god, Shog is so much less... demonic... than I expected.
@WadCheber clearly, you'd put capy on... easy solution.
6:17 PM
@ArtOfCode there too much work to even determine how much work there would be
@ArtOfCode Slacker. I got that last time.
Well, he started as the head of one
stop having so much fun while I'm trying to catch up with the transcript!
@WadCheber He has a human vessel
6:18 PM
So probably just... sprouted the rest?
@Ixrec LOL
Now everyone can hear my terrible german accent
I enjoyed this opportunity to listen to Meta Chat. I appreciate the patience and civility displayed by the mods. Thank you.
@Magisch I hope it's better then my English
I wonder if we can't do the next one of these meta chats after working hours in the US rather than the middle of the day
6:20 PM
it's gonna be a bad time for someone no matter what we do
but I guess the times could rotate if these happen often enough
@Ixrec 3am! which I slept through... whoops
woke up just in time to catch the end :P
@TylerH Yeah, that would be nice. But then you'd be bothering CMs during their off-work times. :)
@hichris123 hey, Chat isn't work!
@TylerH We're contemplating doing another one more aligned with Asia-Pacific time. No news on that yet, but it wouldn't mean staying up too terribly late to join.
oh, serious question from me
6:23 PM
@Ixrec Yep. We're doing 3 of these events as an experiment and are laser-focused on getting the format right. If things keep going well, we'll make 'em a regular thing, and rotating times will be part of that.
is it just SO chat rooms that have this "room culture" nonsense?
@Magisch Terrible? German?
@Ixrec Of course not.
@Ixrec no, I've been in other site chat rooms that have had the issue
@TimPost woohooo
because everyone seems to use that phrase like a euphemism for "extremely prejudicial people who will lynch anyone that they haven't met before" and I've never seen this behavior anywhere
6:24 PM
You make a chat on site X. Wait till it cooks. See room culture for yourself.
and the only specific example that ever gets cited was that one SO room whose drama spilled into featured meta posts a few times
and I missed the town hall ;-;
@TIPS I see what you did there
@TylerH Not necessarily an issue. It's an issue if it conflicts with Be Nice and other SE core rules.
@TIPS It was implicit in my use of the word 'issue' that it was problematic for at least those reasons
since that was the focus of this town hall
6:25 PM
@Ixrec Ixrec, you haven't been around enough :-P
I assume people don't normally talk about "the issue of room culture" in reference to silly things like Mos Eisley using "tacos" as its safe word
@randal'thor which is why I asked
Q: Scoreboard based on recent actopns

JediCurrently, all of the monthly and weekly scoreboards seem to measure reputation gained based on all posts (I'm a new member, but this has been my experience so far, and I couldn't find any meta posts that disagree). Is there a way to view a monthly/weekly scoreboard that measures reputation gain...

Next town hall topic: Actopns.
@Ixrec this kind of thing typically stays on per-site metas
so unless you are browsing metas and chat regularly on different sites, you're not likely to see it
also even on SO these incidents are uncommon to rare
@randal'thor Mr. Rand, I'm afraid I'll need to see your credentials. I haven't seen you in here recently.
I've only observed problematic room culture in rooms from SE's that came before 2013.
6:28 PM
well, apparently they're common enough for the MSE answer about "room culture" to get more upvotes than most of the other answers
@hichris123 I don't come to Tavern unless there's something really interesting going on.
@hichris123 The only person that has been here "recently" is Smokey though.
I'm already in more than enough active chatrooms.
@Ixrec Probably because the last time there was an issue on SO about it, it was a big one
Y'all need to play more Minecraft. That is all.
6:29 PM
and it was about the same time as these town halls were being organized
@TimPost Psh, my level 52 Orc Wizard can wreck you. Wait, that's Minecraft, right?
@TimPost I have more then 4k hours on minecraft
Your move
@Magisch That's all?
I don't play minecraft...
I probably have more than 4k hours watching Minecraft let's plays. Does that count?
@randal'thor Mm, that's really suspicious. I'm not sure you're a suitable candidate for the room. ;P
6:33 PM
@TimPost Ingame. Probably again that in managing servers
@Ixrec Yeah. The eye sore is the same.
@hichris123 What's this, an RO interview? :-P
@hichris123 Am I a suitable candidate for I-dunno-what-it-is? (。◕‿‿◕。)
11 mins ago, by Ixrec
because everyone seems to use that phrase like a euphemism for "extremely prejudicial people who will lynch anyone that they haven't met before" and I've never seen this behavior anywhere
Apparently I didn't play along well enough... :P
@TIPS question 1: do you know what that emoji is from?
6:35 PM
then you're in
You're out
Now I'm out again, from another perspective.
"from a certain point of view"
6:37 PM
@TimPost but ... but ... I already play way too much
You missed the town hall @Bart. What are we going to do about you...
@TIPS err... why that seems like translated from japanese back to english when Edison was a english speaker already?
Unfortunate timing :( I'll smite myself @hichris123
@Braiam Yeah.
@hichris123 I also missed it....
6:40 PM
@Bart OK then we'll watch it.
can we have an autosmiting tool?
I've heard there are sites for that @TIPS
@Bart For mistranslating?
Incidentally, they're the same as sites used for translating.
6:43 PM
@TIPS The irony is that the Engrish fits Edison more than the English would have.
comes out from hiding Is it over?
sort of
I came too late... happened during my lunch
Oh well
"sort of" is good enough for me
@syb0rg Transcript is bookmarked.
6:53 PM
@randal'thor Mmm, helpful. Thanks!
what I'm personally wondering is what all that discussion might lead to
I'm not really seeing anything about solutions anywhere in the transcript so far (in even the most high-level non-technical sense), it seems to be mostly people venting about all of the usual chat problems
prediction: more discussion.

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