Tavern on the Meta

6:00 PM

That's my point.

@TylerH If this was normal chat, I as a mod could ban everyone in the room then doctor everybody's posts to make it look like they said bad things. I'd call that too much power.

Ben N

@randal'thor A meta room for each room, perhaps? That could be perfect for a large-ish site's main room

ArtOfCode

@TIPS because they're a mod.

Undo

I still think that we could solve 80-90% of this if we just got some objective guidelines for what chat moderation should look like.

NathanOliver

@randal'thor We have a slack for that in the SOCVR. That way we can keep on the same page

Wad Cheber

6:00 PM

They did so amicably and came to the conclusion "take it to the site meta".

TIPS

And I'm not saying we should take the mod's power away.

I WANT POWARZ

TylerH

@randal'thor I agree of course. The issue rearing its head here is that moderators, when elected, get some training

Thaddeus Howze

Coordination, conversation, and collaboration can make moderation mostly unnecessary as the participants welcome, support and guide new users through positive example.

4

TylerH

ROs can just be appointed willy-nilly

hairboat

This room was placed in timeout for 20 seconds; the topic of this room is "MY GOD, IT'S FULL OF STARS! Wheel of blame link bolted on for your ease of use: jsfiddle.net/Ldvwp8uv/12/embedded/result/"; - conversation should be limited to that topic.

We're at time. Thanks for joining us, everyone. I think this was awesome and way more productive (or at least easier to follow) than last time. I'll have the transcript wrapped up into a conversation in a minute and will drop a link in here. In the meantime, we encourage you all to keep tossing these ideas around and thinking out loud on Meta, for your benefit and for the greater community's. Thanks!

Wad Cheber

6:01 PM

@TylerH But shouldn't be

Undo

@ThaddeusHowze This feels like a business motto

I like it

Braiam

eh? I'm missing the transcript :(

Shog9

BTW, much more discussion of this topic can be found on Meta:

300

Q: Toward a philosophy of Chat

TL;DR: The Problem This keeps happening in chat: Surprise at flags on vulgar messages. Language that would invariably get your comments deleted on the main site occasionally gets flagged and deleted in chat. Confusion reigns. Controversial topics leading to bickering and name-calling. Folks b...

SevenSidedDie

@wizzwizz4 If a mod did that they'd have their diamond stripped as soon as it came to light.

Axelrod

Could we get a list of the top starred messages, from most to least?

TylerH

6:01 PM

@WadCheber So what can you do to change that?

TIPS

OK, I'm heading for a answer which is a dupe of some post which is a dupe of some other post about giving RO's some credit.

. . . in a minute.

Wad Cheber

@TylerH Elect ROs where possible.

TylerH

Case in point: in the html/css room on SO, they used to just set everyone as a RO after they'd become a room regular. There's still like 20 ROs there

rand al'thor

@TylerH Which is why I and others have been calling for mini-elections for ROs of a site's main chatroom. Then ROs, once elected, can be taken into that private Chat Moderation room and given an idea of their new powers and responsibilities by the mods.

3

ArtOfCode

So, ideas: what could we do to make RO powers more effective? They're pretty underpowered right now.

Undo

6:02 PM

@ArtOfCode Kicks are powerful.

Shog9

@ArtOfCode Extraordinary rendition.

Oded

So, sounds like for chat we just need more cool headed moderators. Call them... smooth moderators.

TIPS

I would think, that the main rooms of the site might benefit from RO elections. Other rooms are mostly insignificant in SE's (only the biggest ones and SO are a different story).

ArtOfCode

@Undo Only when applied correctly, which most RO's don't actually know how to do.

Undo

@Oded please can we diamond @ArtOfCode on SO chat?

Wad Cheber

6:02 PM

@ArtOfCode 1. Set kickmute duration. 2. Edit comments.

TylerH

@TIPS "main rooms" ?

TIPS

A room which five people have met since its existence doesn't need RO elections.

Oded

@Undo if only it worked like that :/

TylerH

@WadCheber edit comments? Whose comments?

TIPS

@TylerH The first rooms of the sites.

Magisch

6:03 PM

@Oded smootherators, if you will

ArtOfCode

@Oded It's okay, you can give me a full diamond too ;)

Wad Cheber

@TylerH All.

TIPS

SO is a different story, as I said.

TylerH

@TIPS So just the first room to ever be made?

rand al'thor

@TIPS Sure, but once it gets to a certain size and business ...

Wad Cheber

6:03 PM

Like mods can.

Oded

@ArtOfCode go get elected first ;)

bluefeet

@ArtOfCode just get elected

TylerH

@WadCheber moderators can edit other peoples' comments?

that is awful

ArtOfCode

@WadCheber (1) I like. (2) I also like but there are more implications ("putting words in people's mouths")

Ben N

@TylerH That works, or there could be a "main room" flag settable by mods

TIPS

6:03 PM

@randal'thor Which most rooms that size don't.

Magisch

I want a ruby or sapphire that says "You got nothing, but you tried"

ArtOfCode

@TylerH yep

Magisch

:D

Ben N

@TylerH Yes, but each message has a public history

TIPS

There should be a reason more people visit a room.

Wad Cheber

6:04 PM

@ArtOfCode If you don't trust the RO, he/she shouldn't be RO.

Shog9

@Undo won't you just suspend him immediately for approving bad edits to chat messages?

2

ArtOfCode

@BenN ...which we can erase

@Shog9 hah! yep

TylerH

Okay, first call to action, feature request to remove the option for moderators to edit other peoples' messages

because why

SevenSidedDie

@TylerH Useful for redacting things that should not be, without deleting the message outright.

TIPS

@Shog9 Some people have no appreciation for art.

Ben N

6:04 PM

Perhaps a "mod redacts history" entry should be added to the history when that happens

ArtOfCode

@TylerH because it's actually useful

Grace Note

@TylerH For when you don't need to delete but need to clean.

Magisch

Maybe put a edit history on those for CMs only

hairboat

MSE Town Hall #2: Chat moderation (Part 1)

1 hour ago, 28 minutes total – 128 messages, 21 users, 61 stars

Bookmarked 57 secs ago by hairboat

TylerH

Redaction is something that could be useful but it should not be done in the form of a normal edit

ArtOfCode

6:05 PM

I've used it several times for calming down a conversation quietly.

Magisch

I see the potential for some seriously insidious abuse there

hairboat

MSE Town Hall #2: Chat moderation (Part 2)

35 mins ago, 30 minutes total – 343 messages, 30 users, 127 stars

Bookmarked 24 secs ago by hairboat

TIPS

@TylerH In SO's case, big enough rooms, which are like, 50 (?) would get elections.

Rincewind

Hello!

Magisch

But then again

Shog9

6:05 PM

@TylerH I've used this effectively on numerous occasions for handling flagged messages that were... Crude and offensive but perhaps unintentionally so.

user287266

@TylerH I've edited users messages to remove borderline offensive content, in order to keep the chat positive and avoid escalation into flagging.

TylerH

It should be a unique option that only gives moderators the ability to black out/obfuscate certain words

Rincewind

sorry I am late

Magisch

they're moderators, so the chance of that is fairly remote

TIPS

@Rincewind Hullo!

Catija

6:05 PM

@TylerH For that time I posted my password in chat accidentally because the wrong window was active...

TylerH

Anyway, I certainly don't think a RO should get that option

Rincewind

@TIPS hello!

Ben N

Change your password?

TIPS

@Shog @hairboat am I the only person who thinks one hour isn't enough?

TylerH

@Catija eh, yeah change your password

Shog9

6:05 PM

@Magisch edit history exists for everyone now; why restrict it?

TylerH

PEBCAK issue

Rincewind

so how does this work?

TIPS

Chatting is a hot topic.

SevenSidedDie

@Magisch If mods are going to be insidious, they shouldn't be mods.

Grace Note

@Magisch The extant system is also fully tracked, visibly so, so that if any abuse did happen, it's pretty obvious and action against abusers can be taken.

Wad Cheber

6:06 PM

@TylerH I also ask mods to correct grammar mistakes in comments I made two minutes or more earlier.

Magisch

@Shog9 oh thats a thing

ArtOfCode

@TIPS nope

Shog9

@TIPS hour two involves joining me in a hangout and drinking

2

Magisch

alright then

TylerH

@WadCheber yeah but we aren't trying to solve personal problems here (no offense)

rand al'thor

6:06 PM

@Magisch I'm sure there already is one.

TIPS

@Shog9 Two is too much. I was thinking 75 to 90 minutes.

ArtOfCode

@Shog9 Heh, almost forgot that happened

TIPS

Maybe.

Wad Cheber

@TylerH It was a joke.

Catija

@TylerH Doesn't mean I want it sitting around in chat for posterity.

Magisch

6:06 PM

@Shog9 Only beer or does ice tea work?

Wad Cheber

The point is, editing is useful.

rand al'thor

@TylerH You know mods can edit other people's comments on main site too?

Shog9

Long Island Iced Tea

A Long Island Iced Tea is a type of alcoholic mixed drink typically made with tequila, vodka, light rum, triple sec, gin, and a splash of cola, which gives the drink the same amber hue as its namesake. It is so named because of the resemblance to the color and taste of iced tea. A popular version mixes equal parts vodka, gin, tequila, rum, and triple sec with 1½ parts sour mix and a splash of cola. Most variants use equal parts of the main liquors, but include a smaller amount of triple sec (or other orange-flavored liqueur). Close variants often replace the sour mix with lemon juice, replace the...

TIPS

Some topics take more mental stuff and exhaust you more.

Others less.

Wad Cheber

It wouldn't hurt to let ROs do it too.

Grace Note

6:07 PM

@Catija We have a redaction system to obliterate a message in that case, yeh?

Magisch

I'm afraid im not about that alcohol

TylerH

@randal'thor I made that assumption when people said they could edit messages in chat

Ben N

@WadCheber I think it would be OK to let RO's edit messages as long as there was at least a note on the message saying who edited/redacted it

Shog9

@Magisch you could go for DMSO and invite kenorb

TylerH

@GraceNote so to be clear the redaction option for moderators is already a separate thing from the edit option?

ArtOfCode

6:07 PM

@WadCheber without full elections, I'm afraid it might. There is some serious abuse potential there.

Wad Cheber

@BenN I think that makes sense.

Catija

@GraceNote Yes. That was what I was trying to explain. The question was "why do mods have the ability to edit chat messages"... it was an example.

Andy

@Rincewind If you are here for the Town Hall, you missed by an hour. What you see now is the wrap up and trailing conversations. To catch up, take a look at the two most recent bookmarks which contains the transcript of the Town Hall

Grace Note

@TylerH Yes

TylerH

So why the need to edit then?

TIPS

6:08 PM

@Shog9 I vote sulfuric acid. IN YOUR FACE YOU CASUAL DIRT

Magisch

sometimes I think

I go to SE to procrastinate

Wad Cheber

@ArtOfCode I already said 1. ROs should be elected where possible. 2. If the RO can't be trusted, the RO shouldn't be RO.

Grace Note

@TylerH Redaction is deletion

TIPS

@Magisch Other times you don't?

Grace Note

It removes the post completely and obliterates the history

ArtOfCode

6:08 PM

@WadCheber I mean full elections, like mods have. Not just meta threads.

Magisch

What do the people who work at SE do? You're literally working at programmer procrastination headquarters

Grace Note

As opposed to editing, which modifies a portion and leaves history, and deletion, which removes it from the transcript but allows viewable history.

TylerH

@GraceNote So calling it 'redaction' is a misnomer then

Catija

Sometimes only part of the post is a problem... if you can edit, you can remove the "bad" part, the remainder of the post can live.

2

TIPS

@WadCheber Would this mean that insignificant, small and temporary rooms don't get RO's?

ArtOfCode

6:08 PM

@WadCheber (2) Yeah, but the process of installing an RO is way easier than a mod.

TIPS

Actually, I'm not convinced that would be a lack.

rand al'thor

@WadCheber It might if someone became RO who wasn't really trustworthy. Like that Cheber guy who didn't get elected properly as RO ;-)

2

Ben N

@TIPS I think it would mean the first person to create it becomes RO

Bob

@Catija I've asked for that to be used on my messages at times, usually for editing a pinned message (because editing it myself has a 2 min limit...)

ArtOfCode

I'd want to trust an RO before they were powerful, with a full election, rather than having to de-owner them and clean up a mess.

Bob

6:09 PM

And sometimes I've seen it used to remove problematic oneboxes

bluefeet

@Shog9 how about this instead? drinksmixer.com/drink8076.html

Shog9

I find the process by which ROs are added to The Tavern quite effective.

Wad Cheber

@TIPS It might make sense to have a special kind of RO for main chat rooms.

Catija

@bluefeet It has tequila...

Wad Cheber

They should be elected.

Magisch

6:09 PM

@Shog9 is that raise a glass with shog?

TIPS

@WadCheber I'm with you.

Wad Cheber

Random secondary rooms should have the current system.

bluefeet

@Catija it has a wide variety of things in it.

Ixrec

it sounds like the "do we trust ROs?" thing varies a lot, so maybe giving mods the power to grant ROs extra powers would be the most thorough solution

Catija

@Bob Yeah. I've done the same. Fortunately, most of the rooms I'm in have mods available who can edit stuff... and I don't need it now.

rand al'thor

6:10 PM

@WadCheber What about when the main chatroom is tiny (e.g. on a new site like A&C)?

Suggested edit: for sufficiently large main chatrooms.

Wad Cheber

@randal'thor Beta sites are an enigma to me.

Ben N

@randal'thor New sites usually have CM's buzzing around, yes?

Rincewind

@Andy Ai... I thought it was eight not seven.... sorry!

TylerH

Why not split chat rooms into two kinds? "Community" chatrooms with elected moderators/owners and personal, temporary, 'conversation between two users about a post' chat rooms?

6

TIPS

@BenN Private betas do.

rand al'thor

6:11 PM

@BenN Only until mods get elected or if there's serious drama, I think.

Magisch

the trilogy sites also have cms buzzing around

Catija

@randal'thor You're so obsessed with us... :P

Magisch

there is just alot more space to buzz around in

Wad Cheber

@TylerH This.

ArtOfCode

@Oded out of curiosity, how much dev work would chat-only moderators be?

TIPS

6:12 PM

@Catija What's this AC site? Did you know about electricity and I didn't know?

Ben N

They'd probably have to be per-site too

TIPS

I'll make you do my physics homework.

Ben N

@TIPS Arts&Crafts

Catija

@TIPS Arts & Crafts

hichris123

@Shog9 Meaning "if I'm on mobile and someone's making trouble, add a room owner"?

TIPS

6:12 PM

@TylerH Agree. Not all rooms are created equal.

Shog9

After-chatcast hangout

Undo

@ArtOfCode I suspect you'd have to shut off the automatic parent profile sync

rand al'thor

@Catija Hey, I like the site - what's wrong with that? (I'm even higher up the rep leagues there than on SFF!)

Catija

@randal'thor Doesn't take much, considering the traffic.

Wad Cheber

@Shog9 I don't want you people to know what I look like!!!

ArtOfCode

6:13 PM

@Undo yeah... I wonder how hard that is

Shog9

@WadCheber so turn off your camera.

Oded

@ArtOfCode depends on what you mean by that. Elections included or not?

Bob

"Hangout? *click* oh, needs chrome/plugin"

ArtOfCode

@Shog9 see I would, but I still don't have a working mic

Wad Cheber

@Shog9 I'm a chef, not an astrophysicist.

Grace Note

6:14 PM

Could also just... not have a webcam

Andy

@Oded He just wants an SO diamond ;)

rand al'thor

@Catija True, but still.

ArtOfCode

@Oded either shrug. I was thinking chosen by site moderators, actually, but there's a case for elections too.

rand al'thor

@WadCheber Dammit, Jim ...

Catija

@Oded Perhaps "unofficial" elections in a meta topic, like for appointed mods?

Wad Cheber

6:14 PM

Also, I don't want you people to know what I sound like.

ArtOfCode

@WadCheber so turn mic off

rand al'thor

@WadCheber We already do.

Wad Cheber

54 secs ago, by Wad Cheber

@Shog9 I'm a chef, not an astrophysicist.

ArtOfCode

@WadCheber button at top of page that looks like a camera/mic. Click it.

rand al'thor

@WadCheber Hey, if you have a Google account you've already got further than me, so ...

hichris123

6:15 PM

Is this hangout interesting enough to join?

... that sounds really snobbish... :P

Grace Note

@hichris123 There's only one way to find out ♪

Catija

@hichris123 Depends on how interesting you find the people in it to be.

ArtOfCode

It was pretty interesting last time round :)

user287266

@hichris123 There's a guy in a cowboy hat

hichris123

That would probably be Shog?

Shog9

6:16 PM

@WadCheber ok, stop being coy.

user287266

@hichris123 ;)

hichris123

@CreationEdge Well, at least there's no table jumping going on...

ArtOfCode

Heh, thanks chat. Just got Outspoken here.

Wad Cheber

Dear god, Shog is so much less... demonic... than I expected.

Catija

@WadCheber clearly, you'd put capy on... easy solution.

bluefeet

6:17 PM

@ArtOfCode there too much work to even determine how much work there would be

rand al'thor

@ArtOfCode Slacker. I got that last time.

Wad Cheber

HOW DID SHOG TAKE HUMAN FORM?

Grace Note

Well, he started as the head of one

Ixrec

stop having so much fun while I'm trying to catch up with the transcript!

TIPS

@WadCheber He has a human vessel

Grace Note

6:18 PM

So probably just... sprouted the rest?

Ankit Sharma

@Ixrec LOL

Magisch

Now everyone can hear my terrible german accent

:(

Thaddeus Howze

I enjoyed this opportunity to listen to Meta Chat. I appreciate the patience and civility displayed by the mods. Thank you.

7

Ankit Sharma

@Magisch I hope it's better then my English

TylerH

I wonder if we can't do the next one of these meta chats after working hours in the US rather than the middle of the day

Ixrec

6:20 PM

it's gonna be a bad time for someone no matter what we do

but I guess the times could rotate if these happen often enough

Bob

@Ixrec 3am! which I slept through... whoops

woke up just in time to catch the end :P

hichris123

@TylerH Yeah, that would be nice. But then you'd be bothering CMs during their off-work times. :)

TylerH

@hichris123 hey, Chat isn't work!

Tim Post

@TylerH We're contemplating doing another one more aligned with Asia-Pacific time. No news on that yet, but it wouldn't mean staying up too terribly late to join.

Ixrec

oh, serious question from me

Ana

6:23 PM

@Ixrec Yep. We're doing 3 of these events as an experiment and are laser-focused on getting the format right. If things keep going well, we'll make 'em a regular thing, and rotating times will be part of that.

Ixrec

is it just SO chat rooms that have this "room culture" nonsense?

TIPS

@Magisch Terrible? German?

Common

@Ixrec Of course not.

TylerH

@Ixrec no, I've been in other site chat rooms that have had the issue

Ankit Sharma

@TimPost woohooo

Ixrec

because everyone seems to use that phrase like a euphemism for "extremely prejudicial people who will lynch anyone that they haven't met before" and I've never seen this behavior anywhere

TIPS

6:24 PM

You make a chat on site X. Wait till it cooks. See room culture for yourself.

Ixrec

and the only specific example that ever gets cited was that one SO room whose drama spilled into featured meta posts a few times

Quill

and I missed the town hall ;-;

TylerH

@TIPS I see what you did there

TIPS

@TylerH Not necessarily an issue. It's an issue if it conflicts with Be Nice and other SE core rules.

TylerH

@TIPS It was implicit in my use of the word 'issue' that it was problematic for at least those reasons

since that was the focus of this town hall

rand al'thor

6:25 PM

@Ixrec Ixrec, you haven't been around enough :-P

Ixrec

I assume people don't normally talk about "the issue of room culture" in reference to silly things like Mos Eisley using "tacos" as its safe word

@randal'thor which is why I asked

TIPS

0

Q: Scoreboard based on recent actopns

Currently, all of the monthly and weekly scoreboards seem to measure reputation gained based on all posts (I'm a new member, but this has been my experience so far, and I couldn't find any meta posts that disagree). Is there a way to view a monthly/weekly scoreboard that measures reputation gain...

discussion feature-request reputation reputation-leagues

Next town hall topic: Actopns.

TylerH

@Ixrec this kind of thing typically stays on per-site metas

so unless you are browsing metas and chat regularly on different sites, you're not likely to see it

also even on SO these incidents are uncommon to rare

hichris123

@randal'thor Mr. Rand, I'm afraid I'll need to see your credentials. I haven't seen you in here recently.

TIPS

I've only observed problematic room culture in rooms from SE's that came before 2013.

Ixrec

6:28 PM

well, apparently they're common enough for the MSE answer about "room culture" to get more upvotes than most of the other answers

rand al'thor

@hichris123 I don't come to Tavern unless there's something really interesting going on.

TIPS

@hichris123 The only person that has been here "recently" is Smokey though.

rand al'thor

I'm already in more than enough active chatrooms.

TylerH

@Ixrec Probably because the last time there was an issue on SO about it, it was a big one

Tim Post

Y'all need to play more Minecraft. That is all.

3

TylerH

6:29 PM

and it was about the same time as these town halls were being organized

@TimPost Psh, my level 52 Orc Wizard can wreck you. Wait, that's Minecraft, right?

Magisch

@TimPost I have more then 4k hours on minecraft

Your move

Tim Post

@Magisch That's all?

Braiam

I don't play minecraft...

Ixrec

I probably have more than 4k hours watching Minecraft let's plays. Does that count?

hichris123

@randal'thor Mm, that's really suspicious. I'm not sure you're a suitable candidate for the room. ;P

Magisch

6:33 PM

@TimPost Ingame. Probably again that in managing servers

TIPS

@Ixrec Yeah. The eye sore is the same.

rand al'thor

@hichris123 What's this, an RO interview? :-P

TIPS

@hichris123 Am I a suitable candidate for I-dunno-what-it-is? (｡◕‿‿◕｡)

hichris123

11 mins ago, by Ixrec

because everyone seems to use that phrase like a euphemism for "extremely prejudicial people who will lynch anyone that they haven't met before" and I've never seen this behavior anywhere

Apparently I didn't play along well enough... :P

Ixrec

@TIPS question 1: do you know what that emoji is from?

TIPS

6:35 PM

Yes.

Ixrec

then you're in

TIPS

You're out

Now I'm out again, from another perspective.

Ixrec

"from a certain point of view"

TIPS

hichris123

Katy Perry - Hot N Cold

►

Bart

6:37 PM

@TimPost but ... but ... I already play way too much

hichris123

You missed the town hall @Bart. What are we going to do about you...

Braiam

@TIPS err... why that seems like translated from japanese back to english when Edison was a english speaker already?

Bart

Unfortunate timing :( I'll smite myself @hichris123

TIPS

@Braiam Yeah.

Quill

@hichris123 I also missed it....

TIPS

6:40 PM

@Bart OK then we'll watch it.

Quill

can we have an autosmiting tool?

Bart

I've heard there are sites for that @TIPS

TIPS

@Bart SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE

@Bart For mistranslating?

Incidentally, they're the same as sites used for translating.

Bart

selfsmiting

TIPS

Ahh

Axelrod

6:43 PM

@TIPS The irony is that the Engrish fits Edison more than the English would have.

user248725

comes out from hiding Is it over?

rene

sort of

syb0rg

I came too late... happened during my lunch

Oh well

user248725

"sort of" is good enough for me

rand al'thor

@syb0rg Transcript is bookmarked.

syb0rg

6:53 PM

@randal'thor Mmm, helpful. Thanks!

Ixrec

what I'm personally wondering is what all that discussion might lead to

I'm not really seeing anything about solutions anywhere in the transcript so far (in even the most high-level non-technical sense), it seems to be mostly people venting about all of the usual chat problems

KutuluMike

prediction: more discussion.

MSE Town Hall #2: Chat moderation (Part 1)

MSE Town Hall #2: Chat moderation (Part 2)

Transcript for