Tavern on the Meta

doppelgreener

6:00 PM

I just mean "many very different kinds of people in one space"

where many very similar people would not be a very mixed space

Aibobot

@doppelgreener uhhh

Tinkeringbell

Maybe? Yes then.

Aibobot

I don't feel its resolved tbh. Just kinda spread out

some people left, and there's a bunch of associated drama. Nothing particularly feels resolved

doppelgreener

@Aibobot No, the situation is not interpersonally, feelings-wise, resolved. But for rules purposes, it's significantly resolved.

Tinkeringbell

I'm using the one I learned in geography and society classes in high school, where mixed means these people are all mixed up and living together happily...

doppelgreener

6:01 PM

@Tinkeringbell ok, not that one :P

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, okay.

Lemme recollect for a sec.

Aibobot

@doppelgreener rules alone fix very little. They provide a framework, but they still need either enforcement or buy in

M.A.R.

@doppelgreener That is certainly true. But to what extent? My guess is things are more political than ever, in the sense than using them, even admitting to them seems to imply you're from a certain mindset and align with a certain political group.

doppelgreener

@M.A.R. I would venture things have always been this political for at least a century, but it is only now feeling like it because we're growing into adulthood and didn't experience any of it as kids

M.A.R.

@doppelgreener And there have been more of the latter group of folks.

doppelgreener

6:04 PM

unless you're, like, 80, but then you were alive during the civil rights movements, and i'm sure things were very political then

M.A.R.

Did people deny being sick just to be on the political side they prefer?

Probably not.

Tinkeringbell

If I'm using doppel's definition of mixed, I still think you can get the biggest mixes by respecting differences, both ways. But then yes, at some point it will break.

doppelgreener

@Tinkeringbell my definition is more like "all the legos tipped into one box" mixed

Tinkeringbell

Which shows the limits of trying to get groups to be mixed?

M.A.R.

@Tinkeringbell I think the best way to do things is to teach people how not to like someone and coexist in the group nonetheless.

doppelgreener

6:06 PM

well, totally

Tinkeringbell

@doppelgreener You can also throw in playmobil and meccano, but then what you can build is limited by constantly having to search for parts.

M.A.R.

Political or not, these things always happen. An odd look escalates to a huge fight. I'm not sure promoting "friendship" in any group that benefits from diversity is a good thing.

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Welcome to the club. I've tried that, unsuccessfully. If you know a good teacher, I can recommend a few students.

Aibobot

@M.A.R. well with mods...

we tend to select for stubborness

Tinkeringbell

Oh, so that's why....

M.A.R.

6:09 PM

@Tinkeringbell Well, I'm saying people should do away with believing there needs to be perfect alignment in beliefs etc. to coexist and contribute

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Hey, I agree :) There's a lot of silly stuff in the world going on now... :P

Aibobot

so sometimes when you have a disagreement, like what happened there...

things get heated

Tinkeringbell

(I gotta go now, just so you all know I haven't run out of arguments or given in XD)

doppelgreener

So for the purposes of issues like this, I'll draw attention to the fact the Stack doesn't try to support every individual that wants to use it. We have suspensions and we can and do identify people who are not welcome to participate for various reasons, including social, and remove them.

The goal is to identify the people you do want to support and then ensure they can continue working.

Aibobot

@doppelgreener and within a community, kinda build the culture you want

doppelgreener

6:10 PM

In the Stack's case, they want to support people who are, in general, respectful and courteous people. We have rules that forbid being verbally abusive, or racist, etc, and the goal is not to mix those people in and ensure they are also happy; the goal is to make sure they are shown the door so that everyone else can get stuff done.

Aibobot

and that takes time, not kneejerk reactions to individual things

Mithical

@doppelgreener January 2020 was when Shog and Robert were fired. I and a couple other people started organizing a SO moderation strike, including Charcoal, SOCVR, and SOBotics, mostly through Discord. Yaakov IIRC said that the strike was useful in convincing management that the community was actually a force that had to be acknowledged

doppelgreener

@Mithical Ah!! That'd be it

M.A.R.

@Aibobot well, briefly, and without getting into the details, what happened? Mods yelling at each other? Mods being angry at CMs that they were being, uh, "the company's puppets"? Did it result in permanent damage to relationships?

Aibobot

@M.A.R. well the whole incident with Monica - which was pretty much before and after followed by a lot of drama with mods

people going around in circles and so on

(No secret, it spilled out to meta and elsewhere)

M.A.R.

6:13 PM

@Aibobot Wasn't that later, 2019 Oct?

Aibobot

@M.A.R. as with the fix being over time, as were problems :D

M.A.R.

@Mithical which was really just part of the Monicagate chain reaction

Mithical

the October 2019 incidents have to be considered in light of the January 2019 incidents... which were not public knowledge at the time

Aibobot

@M.A.R. eh kinda sorta

@M.A.R. Its probably more with the disengagement/abandonment of meta

which wasn't publicly known at the time

M.A.R.

Holy crap. You guys are CIA level

Aibobot

6:14 PM

@M.A.R. actually, we didn't know either

we just knew something was off

Rob

ciachef.edu

doppelgreener

@Aibobot i've finished this finally! hooray

M.A.R.

@Rob kuku

Aibobot

@doppelgreener its kinda an overview of why I don't think things were resolved :D

M.A.R.

Wonder how much traffic that site gets just because people wanna check it out

Aibobot

6:22 PM

@M.A.R. you could ask Jon :D

Rob

We thought Mossad was your greatest concern, or is there a list.

Mithical

*rolls eyes*

Aibobot

@Rob we check it twice.

doppelgreener

@Aibobot i'd have been one of the first to say things aren't resolved and this is an ongoing thing with more work needed, and have told multiple people that including SE staff members, so i am on the same page there

M.A.R.

@Aibobot What, really?

Are you saying what I think you're saying?

@Rob See, my greatest concern is rolling their eyes at the moment.

Rob

6:24 PM

It's prolly not what they're sayin'

Mithical

@M.A.R. you're so sweet <3

@M.A.R. Jon's often lurking here or Discord or Twitter

M.A.R.

Wait, which Jon are we talking about? Jon Snow?

@Mithical my best attempt at emulating Amazonian tree frog poison

Whispers "And it worked"

Rob

Aibobot

@doppelgreener and tbh, we still deal with flareups of that. And some of the fallout from that too. I mean, we could/can suspend the worst of those...

Rob

Rolls one eye, split.

M.A.R.

6:29 PM

doppelgreener

@Rob what an excellent bowling ball

M.A.R.

Found new Discord emoji

doppelgreener

@Aibobot yeah, that's not surprising. it's why i'm grateful there's moderation in place in the new TL, because that would've been impossible to not have

M.A.R.

0

Q: Why are there so many apes

I've recently rewatched the planet of the apes movies. I found it quite odd that there are so many apes, especially in the last movie. They seem to go from a few escaped zoo animals, to limitless hordes of animals in a few movies. Is there an in-universe explanation as to why there are so many ap...

war-for-the-planet-of-the-apes

I'd make a joke about the pandemic but

Rob

The whole stance is discord worthy.

Aibobot

6:31 PM

@doppelgreener we've had no flare up since, so we'll have to see how well it worked practically

M.A.R.

Lights a match

Rob

🙉

Mithical

@Aibobot Pessimisticly... a lot of the people around whom there may have been flareups are no longer in the TL or, in some cases, on the network.

doppelgreener

@Aibobot oh! are you talking about flare ups in MSE or somewhere like that? my brain's still on TL

Aibobot

TL

@Mithical eh, maybe

M.A.R.

6:34 PM

nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/hot-spots/….

Aibobot

but in any case we're not going to know effective something is until its tested

@doppelgreener in this case TL

Shog9

The sad bit is... The need for moderation in the TL (and improved moderation in chat generally) was identified by multiple people years earlier. I mentioned Aarthi already; Ana was a big proponent of it during her time as well. IIRC, Cat had worked on ideas soon after being hired.

Aibobot

@Shog9 getting the mechanics is difficult, the move should have helped but

tbh, we all were distracted

Shog9

mmm...

M.A.R.

Dormancy is the enemy of

Uh

Shog9

6:35 PM

The hack that we put in place in late 2019 was... Sorta us throwing up our hands and saying, "we're never going to be given the opportunity to do this right, let's just do the best we can"

Which, in hindsight, we should have done years earlier.

But...

Aibobot

@Shog9 that's vaguely what happened :D

Shog9

Awful lot of perfect vs good

user1271772

Has there ever been a feature request for "Comments are not intended for extended discussion, please continue in chat" to go to a specific room if a certain tag on the question exists, rather than creating a new chat room called "Discussion between user1271772 and Shog9" ?

I searched MSE: meta.stackexchange.com/…

Mithical

The stopgags along the way caused their own problems

Aibobot

@Shog9 uh... weeeeellllllll

user1271772

6:36 PM

And none of those MSE questions seem to bring it up, but it's possible that my search left some questions out

Aibobot

there's something to be said for "oh, the hell with it. Lets do it"

Shog9

@user1271772 There are some related ideas, not sure I've seen that one specifically

Aibobot

though admittedly I'm thankful before I did it before I got sunk into on my new role

where we're understaffed (we have 3 of 5 people), somewhat overworked... wait... :D

Shog9

@Aibobot I'm as much to blame as anyone. I joined SO with this idea that I wouldn't resort to a bunch of ugly hacks to make stuff work, and... It took me far too long to give that ideal up.

Aibobot

@Shog9 My dad's an engineer. My life is a series of ugly hacks :D

and sometimes you get a minimal viable project working, and hopefully its not tempermanent

Shog9

6:39 PM

I'm still kinda... Of two minds about some of the stuff I did. Arguably, things would've fallen apart a lot sooner and possibly less catastrophically if I'd just... Done less.

Aibobot

@Shog9 hindsight, like the year is 2020

Shog9

Sometimes it's better to let stuff fail gently than to hold it together with duct tape until it blows shards through the walls.

Aibobot

You chose to do what you felt was right, based on the information you had

Shog9

(I have a particular mental image for that; in a previous life, I worked near a testing lab for fans, where they would run them until they flew apart - then use that info to ensure that this never happened in the field)

@Aibobot that's a useless phrase ;-)

Aibobot

@Shog9 :D

Shog9

6:42 PM

I'm interested in learning what information I was missing, not comforting myself on my ignorance.

Aibobot

Well, maybe :D

user1271772

Shog9

I've seen waaaay too many people pat themselves on the back with that phrase while stuff burned.

Aibobot

well maybe

user1271772

We have chat rooms for several different Matter Modeling software: PHONOPY, ASE, GAUSSIAN, VASP, LAMMPS

Aibobot

6:43 PM

but that dosen't mean there's no room for analysis after the fact with better information :D

others might benefit

user1271772

The chat rooms called "Discussion between user1271772 and Shog9" are very specific to only 2 or 3 people, and don't tend to "last very long"

Shog9

I want to do better, and work with people who want to do better. When I want to be cheerfully ignorant, I have a fridge stocked with beer.

doppelgreener

@user1271772 comment threads on spceific posts tend to be very finely suited toward that post, and existing chat rooms wouldn't necessary want that conversation dumped on them

e.g. if comment threads on RPG questions got dumped into RPG.SE general chat, it'd be a mess, and nobody would get anything done, not least of all the people trying to sort through their comment discussion

user1271772

@doppelgreener In this case the question has the GAUSSIAN tag on it, meaning that it's a question about the GAUSSIAN software, and it is best for the question to be in the GAUSSIAN chat room

doppelgreener

sure, but not necessarily the comment discussion about a GAUSSIAN question or one of its answers

which could be a comment discussion about whether or not their statement in paragraph 3 was sufficiently clear, which has nothing to do with GAUSSIAN

user1271772

6:45 PM

@doppelgreener The GAUSSIAN chat room is specifically for this though 😂😂😂

Shog9

I think... There is potential value in your idea, @user1271772 - specifically, if the system suggested chatting in an existing chatroom when a conversation arose, but didn't ever move messages there.

user1271772

I mean that room was specifically made for chats about GAUSSIAN questions and answers

Shog9

I've done this manually quite a bit - "this is getting long, join me in The Tavern if you wanna continue chatting"

doppelgreener

@Shog9 yes, i agree

Aibobot

@user1271772 considering that you can only really properly move comments to chat once...

that might have value in general

doppelgreener

6:47 PM

dumping comment chains into an existing chat room, and doing this for all questions with a specific tag, and expecting everyone to continue their comment discussions this way, would not work

but "maybe talk in this room about this topic" without the move or even necessary expectation for a direct continuation would be workable

Shog9

I'd like to see that angle fleshed out. Maybe not automatically-created chatrooms, but the ability to use tags on chatrooms to influence the suggestion when a conversation is detected.

Throw up a FR for discussion...

user1271772

What is an FR discussion?

"FR"

Shog9

feature-request

Aibobot

feature request

user1271772

I see.

Okay I'll write one on MSE, if that's the right place to do it.

Aibobot

6:48 PM

it is

user1271772

Our own meta is a bit too small, there's not many people that would be able to give feedback there

Shog9

e.g., "Allow tagging chatrooms to influence the suggestion when a comment conversation is detected"

user1271772

Mainly just new users since the site only went into public beta a couple months ago

Shog9

Give specific examples. As you have above.

I think, it has potential as a way of getting folks to engage socially a bit more, over specific questions / solutions / ideas.

Aibobot

@user1271772 And as a "network wide" feature its more likely to be noticed here

Shog9

6:50 PM

IOW, if I'm interested in gabbing about something, I could just sit in a chatroom tagged with that, and the system would send chatty people my way.

Imagine if every lengthy C++ comment thread got directed to The Lounge...

user1271772

I thought I'd get people's opinions about it here first, since "meta is murder" for people that don't have a lot of experience asking new questions like this. So I appreciate all your feedback and I'll write something, taking into account Shog9's suggestion to include specific examples.

Shog9

...ok, maybe don't use that example

Aibobot

actually I think @user1271772's examples are fine enough ;D

user1271772

We made the chat rooms PHONOPY, ASE, GAUSSIAN, VASP, LAMMPS specifically for chats about Q/A related to those computer programs.

Aibobot

@Shog9 I suspect that what eventually got rid of recycle was... lounge c++

Shog9

6:52 PM

Speaking of meta murders... This question now has a positive score equal to the absolute value of its negative score when I answered it. That always makes me happy :)

user1271772

Some of those rooms actually started out as "Discussion between userA and userB" but when the conversation ended, it seemed like a waste of a room

@Shog9 -8 and +14

Aibobot

@user1271772 and those rooms get frozen

though that's something you might need to consider for lower volume tag specific rooms

but its a good arguement for rooms for a tag over "discussion between foo"

also, how do you pick which tag gets precidence if there's two options?

user1271772

@Aibobot I was just thinking about that. It's not been a problem for us, because a question about the software LAMMPS is not going to be related to the software GAUSSIAN, for example. But some other SE sites might run into that problem. I suppose their community can decide which rooms belong to which tags.

Aibobot

(or just throw in links to both, or more)

user1271772

@Aibobot And yes, frozen/deleted rooms eventually become somewhat useless. What I was thinking, was that instead of having 300 rooms called "Discussion between A and B", the vast majority of those rooms could actually fit into the pre-existing rooms that are specifically designed for discussion/comments about the Q/A of GAUSSIAN or LAMMPS or some specific software like that.

Aibobot

7:00 PM

@user1271772 which makes a case for tag specific rooms over moving a conversation to a comment thread specific room :D

Rob

You need a generic automatic naming scheme, which also aids guessing how to find the room. Example: "Chat - [Question Name] chat between [A] and [B] tagged [X], [Y], [Z]" --- then it could be missed, forgotten, renamed; yet still fairly easily found - dupes could be named chat_2, etc.

Rob

7:44 PM

@Shog9 FYI Pixel 4a looks easy to disassemble in 5 minutes (for expert).

Shog9

Nice

Looks almost pleasant

M.A.R.

@Shog9 Improving chat?

HAHHHHAHAHAHAHA

OMG cleans a tear you've already been away for too long.

Except you haven't been

Shog's paradox

Shog9

Eh. The nice thing about not working for SO is that I don't have to constantly temper my expectations based on political reality.

That shit gets tiring.

M.A.R.

yesterday, by M.A.R.

@Mithical It's a side of Shog I hadn't seen before. Now that there are no strings attached, he can criticize the company's actions more freely. And it's . . . I dunno how to feel about it, but a shade of awesome is unmistakable

2

doppelgreener

@Rob it's like a make-your-own jigsaw puzzle where the hard part is putting it back together again

Shog9

7:59 PM

I was telling someone a few years back... Meta, archived as it is, could be a real treasure-trove for the right person: loads of information on what can be done, both socially and technically. Even if SO, Inc never fully utilizes it, I suspect someone will...

M.A.R.

The weird thing about it is when I started, you were essentially the face of the company.

Shog9

That was... Explicitly my job for a long time.

M.A.R.

Then the ring was found

Shog9

Like; when I agreed to come on full time, that was the job.

Probably about 3-4 years before that shifted significantly.

M.A.R.

@Shog9 When did it change?

Jinxed

Hmm, 2016

Shog9

8:02 PM

But yeah. That was back when it was just sorta went without saying that anything the company was doing would be discussed in public

When that changed, they didn't need a "face", they needed... Janus.

So, I was the side looking toward the past I guess.

🤷‍♂️

Anyway. I think chat integration is a good idea, and worth discussing even if it never goes anywhere on SO.

M.A.R.

There's so much potential here.

There's just a link in a site's main page and that's it.

But considering how frustrated people are about the comments, which is partially because they are necessary

Rob

But, I think the forum format has many opponents too, especially if it's for an argument and not a constructive debate.

M.A.R.

Nobody shows up for a site's chats even though many might want to. The ones that go exploring and find it are already trying to socialize on the site and tie themselves to the old money.

@Rob Did you mean proponents?

Showing results for But, I think the forum format has many proponents too, especially if it's for an argument and not a constructive debate

Rob

Wait for the edit ... or link to the definition.

M.A.R.

OK, not gonna stretch that joke

@Rob Do you expect people on the internet to wait?

Rob

8:09 PM

M.A.R.

That's like asking cats to ignore boxes. Anyway

Rob

:)

M.A.R.

What's that mildly threatening shark model?

A . . . hmm . . . lightsaber. No wait . . . Bifurcated lightsaber

Rob

2 hours ago, by Rob

The correct tool for the job.

M.A.R.

Poking schtick. I'm still gonna call it bifurcated lightsaber.

user1271772

8:12 PM

@Shog9 @Aibobot @doppelgreener @Rob, vis-a-vis our discussion about 90 minutes ago, I've tried to put together a feature request. I've generally avoided asking questions on "Meta is Murder", so I would welcome any feedback or edits if you think the question can be improved:

0

Q: An idea for how to avoid making so many new chatrooms called "Discussion between user[A] and user [B]" which later become frozen or not very useful

The observation Some sites have hundreds of rooms with almost the same title, for example there's an entire page of rooms on Mathematics.SE that were created from the comments on a specific question or answer: Most of these rooms end up getting frozen, because they are only relevant for a very s...

discussion feature-request comments chat discussion-in-comments

M.A.R.

The weapon of choice for Darth Paul

In the sequels of the prequels but not quite the main story.

Rob

and Parth Duel

M.A.R.

But it has stormtroopers! Go watch it people!

Oh nooo, the evil is about to win again with a shocking reversal

The gothic side is winning against light mode

@user1271772 The header font is distractingly big. Use ##

user1271772

@M.A.R. I will change it now. Originally I'd used ###, but with all the images and other formatting, I found that it barely stood out.

Fixed :)

M.A.R.

Often typography pros (or snobs, depending on your perspective) prefer things to stand out very little AFAIK

user1271772

8:16 PM

I see!

M.A.R.

And they don't really like different font sizes. Maybe excusable for only two levels

user1271772

I had bold fonts and bulleted lists, which made the ### font hardly stand out

M.A.R.

On "Meta is Murder", you often see regulars double check stuff here before posting, and they reduce the chances of bad reception to almost zero

Rob

@user1271772 The first 3/4 seems OK, the remainder will require more study, of the implementation details --- BTW: That conversation seemed to start here, if anyone else is curious.

M.A.R.

Everyone is hit with this crazy idea at one time or another, and they need to discuss it first with other people

user1271772

8:19 PM

@M.A.R. I checked here before posting, but already got 1 down and 2 up 😂😂😂

Rob

So, you're way ahead; thus far.

user1271772

@Rob Depending on where we define the starting point, one might say it started a few messages earlier: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8538224#8538224

Rob

@user1271772 ✔️

M.A.R.

@user1271772 I think the feature request would be received well, it's just some parts of it might be a bit redundant.

user1271772

I noticed your edit, I was also thinking of writing "Avoiding..." rather than "An idea for avoiding"

M.A.R.

8:26 PM

"An idea for" is a common catchphrase in titles that come up with crazy ideas

-28 an idea for making stack overfrown more "welcoming"

Or rather, very poorly researched ideas that make people downvote 10 seconds into reading the question.

And don't worry, there's always been the one fellow who downvotes a highly upvoted FR these years

Shog9

@user1271772 nice work

user1271772

Thank you :)

Transcript for