@M.A.R. They're still setting a playground, the fighting only starts after you know what you're talking about :P

But - and here's where I think we agree - what's important right now isn't an increase in empathy: the existing CMs are plenty empathetic toward their communities, and have the ability to be sympathetic toward problems they can't empathize with.

...no, what's important is that the company becomes willing to put both that empathy and sympathy to good use.

@Shog9 oh, no doubt about that

@Tinkeringbell Aha. Readies super soaker

@Shog9 oh my expectations for the company are quite... different?

I think @Shog9 is working with a very narrow definition of "empathize".

@M.A.R. we don't need to either :D

we're talking about a thing

I am, and intentionally so. I've seen it abused too many times, and I believe the word is at risk of losing all meaning.

@Mithical If you make it much broader, you end up at 'must want to save the world'.

@Shog9 so - as far as the company goes, they're pretty close to starting from scratch.

Although many people can sympathise with issues I have to deal with as a trans person, not many can empathise, and most of those that can are able to do so because they are also trans people dealing with the same issues.

they have pretty much maybe one vertabrae with a few cracks, and they need to build a backbone :D

@doppelgreener ah uh

Folks too easily toss around "empathy" as a synonym for "sympathy" while at the same time conflating it with behavior - and even mental conditions (that's why I jumped on the sociopath thing). That's extremely dangerous. Not being able to empathize with someone doesn't make you a sociopath; it means you're different from them. It's important to recognize that.

I think that might be the kind of way Shog9 is delineating the two

Yep

I have trans friends. I have an expectation to how they should be treated. I don't really claim to understand entirely what they go through, but damn if I will let them be treated shoddily for what they are :D

Empathizes with everyone at everything

@M.A.R. what does that do to your definition/image of 'self'?

sdc coffee M.A.R

@Ollie brews a cup of Espresso for @M.A.R

I've far too often seen folks tout their own ability to empathize and then... Use that to deny the experiences of others, because they cannot feel it.

@Ollie Can you stop throwing around coffee if people are already having good conversations? It's getting annoying.

@Shog9 ah, but I chose that word simply cause you can effectively run a community with little care for the people in it, with the right motivations. I've nearly seen people pull it off.

@Tinkeringbell sorry. I agreed with "Empathizes with everyone at everything".

@Tinkeringbell empathy machine

Or plot device, your pick.

@Ollie It'll be much more useful if you use words instead of coffee to chime in ;)

@Aibobot I mean... I don't care about any of you. But that doesn't mean I can't - shouldn't - recognize the problems that you face, strive to understand them, look to help.

Yeah. You're right. Sorry.

:D

Ouch

;-P

Empathizes with Shog not caring about him

@Ollie Stars are nicely quiet too, though use them with care to avoid people feeling... unsympathized with ;)

Again, this is where drawing folks from the community is helpful. If you've never struggled to understand a confusing question, faced blowback from trying to help, gotten trolled, thought you were getting trolled only to realize it was just a very confused person... How are you supposed to help others get through that?

You can listen to them, recognize that the struggles are real... But... It's awful hard to avoid falling into the trap of giving them less credence than they deserve.

See also: literally every "welcoming" attempt predicated on the idea that just yelling at folks to be nicer would fix everything.

There are problems you can fix with sympathy. And... There are problems that you can only fix with empathy.

sympathy and empathy don't fix things.

If you find yourself facing one of the latter... It is crucial that you find someone to help.

They can drive actions that fix things.

(minor nitpick).

They can inform actions that fix things.

Better nitpick.

(I can nitpick too...)

;-P

You're making too much sense again and I see myself drifting off at your words.

@M.A.R. You can make flashcards for my SAFe training if you want some nonsense to look at.

But yeah. Remember how I said empathy can be dangerous? Here's another scenario: you feel the pain so strongly that you're moved to act - but have no actual solution. You lash out, start fires, all in the name of helping... But you make it worse.

No no, sense is good ☕

@Shog9 there's been quite a lot of that ._.

But that's also where perspective is nice

There are problems where, if you empathize, you should step back, talk to someone else, ask them to help rather than taking action yourself...

I've been angry enough that I did that and someone went "duuuude"

and I stepped back

duuuude

but what if everyone is that close to the problem?

Can very much relate.

@Aibobot Unpossibil.

@Aibobot You call mom.

@Aibobot that's where having a decent-sized team is very useful.

@Shog9 Wizards of the Coast is currently embroiled in a number of problems entirely of its own making, and in trying to address each of those problems, each time it's chosen a course of action that has not only not addressed the actual problems, it's created whole new problems that didn't exist before while making the existing ones worse. All because it did not understand the experience of the hurt people were facing. It didn't ask anyone nor have any internal representatives.

@Shog9 yup

Empathy as a source of information to guide action taken is super important

As is asking someone if you need to understand in order to resolve it properly but don't

Worst-case though... Talk to more people. There are enough folks in these communities to compensate for an understaffed team, if their assistance is accepted.

@doppelgreener or I suspect pre-thaw SE management

@Shog9 talking to people needs bandwidth

Yes

we can do stuff but we also need guidence and well

an assurance things are followed up on

Look... What @doppel said earlier about CMs not being empowered to help... An AWFUL lot of that is just listening. And the CM team has been understaffed for a lot of years now.

I don't wanna spend any time on this, but: the CM team (as a team, not as individuals), were hated for a long time.

@Shog9 quite

we get the idea

That's why my primary heuristic for change here is: do they increase the staff on that team significantly. Like, 3x at min.

Because words mean nothing without that. Unless / Until that happens, my working model of the company remains "an org that hates the community"

A level of staffing too small for folks to listen, too small for folks to... Spend time on conversations like this one... Is too small to be effective, too small to provide the support needed.

@Shog9 well, that's to be seen ._.

the "we're hiring" page is still, to me a barometer of priorities :D

@Shog9 wait, within the company!?

@doppelgreener Jon's written a lot on that

is that surprising? It shouldn't be. But as I said, I don't really want to spend much time on that.

That's not really news anymore...

It is news to me

Can I borrow your rock next time things go south? ;)

@doppelgreener yes, this is a common pattern. Related to that politician's syllogism thing.

@doppelgreener I suspect a rabbit hole that you should leave alone at this point and not ruin your day further

News to me too, one of them had the last name "Friend"; and lived up to it.

@M.A.R. Honestly this isn't going to ruin my day

But yeah, there was a time when different CMs and even SO mods expressed this in many more words.

@doppelgreener jlericson.com/2020/04/03/pronoun_retro.html

is worth a read

And honestly, if y'all are acting like this isn't news or surprising, I'm wondering how I missed it. Did it just become a big topic in Teachers Lounge at some point? It's not like I've been there much.

@doppelgreener well not obviously

I think I read some of Jon's writing but reading long-form stuff is difficult.

@doppelgreener Actually, bunch of Twitter and deleted MSE comments, I guess ;)

Not too surprising you don't know.

but uhhh

I do think firing long term CMs counts

Ok, so... This ties into something else Doppel said earlier, so I'll address it quickly:

Remember too what I said about company vs individuals who are in it. Lotta good folks who were good coworkers. But as a matter of policy, the company and its officers did not like that the CM team existed, did not like the role that they had, and ...

@doppelgreener well, not TL, I tend to follow people on twitter and just tend to... uih... accumulate gossip :D

The data was... grease for the gears. What changed minds was a significant number of people up in arms at the start of the year, ready to leave, strike, or just burn it all down.

@doppelgreener course, this is the same mindset that wanted to abandon meta and most of the smaller sites

that's supposed to be changing.

Just came back ...

@Aibobot that makes sense, my twitter feed is wholly separate from anything stack adjacent

All of a sudden, folks at higher levels of the company had to face up to what the CM team had actually been doing, and what they couldn't do. And... It was not a good realization for them. The data thing... Allowed them to save face to a degree, internally as much as externally.

@Shog9 and well, the highest levels of the company was "new" so uh...

Not as new as all that

@Tinkeringbell DO NOT GIVE AWAY the Tavern's Book of Secrets!

:D

@Shog9 well... saving face :D

@M.A.R. Who said anything about gifting? It's a loan.

But here's the thing: if stuff hadn't blown up in January, I strongly suspect there would not be a CM team right now. Not even a small one. Or any employee participation on meta. Regardless of what the data said.

IS DOPPEL WORTHY?

@M.A.R. Might be too green. I'll reconsider.

The path to wisdom is treacherous

Not all are prepared to PAY THE PRICE

@Shog9 well, I figured the 'plan' was to get rid of the rest of the team by attrition...

@Tinkeringbell hehehehehehehehehehe

now I'm not quite sure

@Aibobot Move to other teams, keep roles nominally the same but in practice limit so much as to be ineffective, and rely on anyone who cares quitting, yes. This was already happening at the start of the year.

Realizes for the 47th time January was 10 years ago

is this january 2020 or january 2019?

The one from 10 years ago would be january 2010.

@doppelgreener 2020

But anyway. These are painful memories. I'm more interested in what happens next.

@Shog9 arn't we all :D

I'm being metaphorical 🎨

@M.A.R. See, that's what happens when you empathize too much.

Assuming the CM team expansion isn't all just talk, I'd like to see 4 strong community members hired and two experienced CMs from outside, all over the next 12 months. I think that's about the right mix. Hiring can then slow to maybe 1 / 6 months to grow the team more slowly in the face of attrition, allowing institutional knowledge to rebuild.

@doppelgreener Help me out? What happened in January '19? I can't remember O.o

That seems far-fetched?

@Shog9 well still waiting on it

@M.A.R. my "like to see"?

@Tinkeringbell Some crap or the next. Remember there were the ads thing and the welcoming wagon and what else

@Shog9 Yah

So... I'm trying to be optimistic

@M.A.R. Wasn't welcoming wagon already before I started modding MSE in '18?

@Ollie I didn't tell you what's on it... :D

@Tinkeringbell Well a train doesn't have one wagon

@Tinkeringbell no doubt it's more seared into my mind and that of a few others more than anyone else, but that's when the moderator community put to a vote how to handle trans peoples' pronouns

If the company is serious, what I just outlined is a very conservative plan. If they don't, if CMs and the communities themselves are still seen as a necessary evil... Then yeah, no chance in hell that'll happen; they'll be lucky to get one new hire.

I'm being so poetic I should go write Hamlet 2 BRB

@M.A.R. True. But still, I thought 'the worst' of it in terms of moderation load was already gone ;)

@doppelgreener Oh, it wasn't on MSE then. I was searching my mind for something on MSE.

yeah this wasn't MSE-related, this was TL and the mod team

@doppelgreener tbh, that was slightly mishandled.

@doppelgreener Oh hmm squints

there was too much of a circus around it, and the real important stuff was lost

Squints further

You're hurting my eyes by being cryptic. I hope you're happy.

@Aibobot I dunno, I think the important stuff on that matter was already lost way before I joined the TL back in '17.

@M.A.R. teacher's lounge. internal moderator spaces.

@Aibobot Can we please get the original line-height back? < I'm expecting 200 stars now.

@doppelgreener Duh, but I have some popcorn here that needs to be consumed

@Tinkeringbell 200 1, 200 2, sold

@M.A.R. Sorry, I'm afraid you'll have to go find some Tupperware.

@M.A.R. so - for change, you need buy in. You need people to set examples sure but it stopped being about that

@Aibobot Ahhh much better

@M.A.R. I'd just caution that the events I'm alluding to were traumatic and deeply hurtful for many individuals. They are not popcorn entertainment. Accordingly, I'd ask the popcorn metaphors be put away related to it.

@M.A.R. get your share of the popcorn from @Ollie and just watch. ;)

You weren't to know as you said that, but, there it is

Sure

That... Might help to understand why the stuff happening in the TL went south

Can't delete that message now

@Shog9 Don't put too much of that on CMs... moderators are supposed to behave better than they did too.

(or on the company, for that matter).

@doppelgreener I don't feel we're in a better place, in general than before that

I do vaguely recall that at some point, some mods started being a bit passive aggressive to some CMs

@Tinkeringbell Sure. But we talked about this at length last year already; I posted a bunch of activity stats in the TL to try to illuminate the problem. You get 400 people visiting a space, out of which there are maybe a dozen regulars... And expecting a majority to have any clue what is going on or what landmines they shouldn't step on is... Optimistic.

@Tinkeringbell eh, maybe, but mods are human too

@Shog9 on the other hand uh...

@Aibobot The more need to hammer that into their heads ;)

it took a while, and a bit of renegade modding to actually start on anything close to a structure to fix that.

Going all the way back to the start of the TL, the main role of CMs had been to provide the sort of oversight and guidance needed to keep a huge, diverse group of people from burning everything down. Once we weren't able to do that anymore...

To be frank, I used to think mods are exemplars, but that filter alone has proved inadequate.

@Aibobot i'll strongly beg to differ

@Shog9 I was more thinking the regulars were more of a problem than any newcomers, but sure. Rest of the point about stepping on landmines is valid.

I mean, it's tempting to just blame the mods. Those jerks. But, when you know you're walking away from a pile of oily rags, blaming the rags for burning down your house is silly.

@M.A.R. We're really just elaborate trolls.

@doppelgreener well - maybe but there's still embers of it

and there's work to do still

@Shog9 Except here you have a pile of rags that can wash themselves. They're not totally incompetent.

Most of you are extremely competent. You're still human.

Yeah, that last bit is pesky.

Throw a bunch of folks with very different backgrounds, beliefs, experiences... Into one space... You're gonna get chaos if you don't take care.

And I'm being... Understated on all of that.

Kinda weird though... etiquette had that handled ages ago: "Don't talk politics at a dinner party".

That doesn't actually work either ;-P

And much as I wanted IPS to be an etiquette site, that never quite happened

Nah, it just has everyone chew their tongue when someone does decide to start talking politics. I know.

@Tinkeringbell I do think the whole distribution is heavily skewed towards decent people.

@Shog9 etiquette would've been a nice safe limit :)

The issues trans people were facing in TL was not an issue of people talking politics

RIGHT??

So, we can easily run into issues without anyone consciously going in there to talk politics

@doppelgreener Unfortunately, everything is politicized in the English-speaking world of today.

Well, not just now

You have people almost dying of a disease and denying it.

In super mixed spaces a certain adage becomes pretty relevant: everything is political. In fact, what is and is not considered political is the big thing.

Those of you who still have access to the old "room 4" TL: go back in the transcript to 2012 and look at how Aarthi interacted with folks. It's a master class in mitigating conflict without being a jerk.

Well, let's not conflate things.

Today, saying I'm drinking tea is not political. In a certain period in USA history, drinking tea would be very political.

Today, me having a beer is not political. In 1920s USA, it would be very political.

In the early 1900s, cocaine was not a political thing; today it is.

There are various things I can say like "I don't think god made the planet spin" which in past centuries would shock and horrify a few people and maybe get me put on trial.

@doppelgreener The etiquette rule is just a generally known example. There are many more such rules, which all boil down to 'put aside your differences and don't cause more turmoil if you want to be able to live in peace'. Which requires a lot of effort from all parties.

Basically, what is and isn't political varies depending on who you're speaking to, where you are, etc.

Which I never saw from either, hence my remark that mods are supposed to behave better than they did.

To some mods, saying "actually please use they/them for me" was not a very political request, to others, it was extremely political and they made a fight out of saying no.

@Shog9 I'll put it on the reading list. Which is already quite long, sadly.

@Shog9 Aarthi is one of the folks who I think sets an example for us, only most of us didn't have the privilege :D

@Rob What's that? Back scratcher?

@Tinkeringbell The fact what is and isn't political can vary precludes that being possible sometimes. Notions of "no politics" only work when the group is already aligned in its politics.

Antique poking stick. It used to be a thing, to investigate objects that one came across.

@doppelgreener Things don't need to be political to cause disagreement, and respecting differences should go both ways.

@doppelgreener I don't particularly see it as "political" as opposed to well - a mess ._.

people stuck in their ways, sometimes digging in...

Again, I never saw that in this case, so we should all have behaved better.

Or "put aside your differences, don't cause trouble" varies a lot in how to enforce it. To some, the trans person asking for their pronouns to be respected is the one causing trouble. To others, the person declining to respect them is the one causing trouble. It's a nice adage, but in sufficiently mixed groups, not a viable one.

Shrug, I guess that shows the limitations of forcing groups to mix, then.

Right. In this case, it got resolved only when one one of those two specific people was identified as "that's the one causing the trouble", and some of the politics got codified, and the group got aligned around them.

You just said it wasn't politics and now it's politics that got codified?

@Tinkeringbell I said everything is political; and what is and is not considered political is part of the politics

Oh. I got stuck on chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8538038#8538038

Nevermind then.

Anyhow, what you're describing didn't mix people.

It separated them.

And that divide is still going strong. Only 1 part of the 'mix' remained.

Oh, yeah, sorry. I mean, before that you were talking about how avoiding talking politics can help, but I raised this as an example of where you can run into major issues specifically because politics can just incidentally come up.

Because of what one group considers to be political and another doesn't, for example

@doppelgreener Politics here is pretty limited to 'things the government is discussing at the moment'.

@Tinkeringbell I am only saying this is what occurs in super mixed groups. I am not saying the goal is to mix people

Is it really a super mixed group if you can still scoop out 1 part though...

At that point, I don't think it was ever mixed to begin with, just two different boxes put next to each other with maybe a pile of crap on top that doesn't fit into either.

i think we're using different words of mixed?