Tavern on the Meta

Rob

12:05 AM

A traditional yurt (from the Turkic languages) or ger (Mongolian) is a portable, round tent covered with skins or felt and used as a dwelling by several distinct nomadic groups in the steppes of Central Asia. The structure comprises an angled assembly or latticework of pieces of wood or bamboo for walls, a door frame, ribs (poles, rafters), and a wheel (crown, compression ring) possibly steam-bent. The roof structure is often self-supporting, but large yurts may have interior posts supporting the crown. The top of the wall of self-supporting yurts is prevented from spreading by means of a tension...

Andras Deak

My peeps lived in that

What is the significance here?

Rob

1:08 AM

@AndrasDeak It sounds like Roburt, after he changed his name. It's even less funny if it needs to be explained.

jscs

@Undo-ReinstateMonica /me salutes Thank you (plural)

George Stocker

2:21 AM

I don’t know if this was intentional but I’m cheering twitter.com/gortok/status/1217990083535609861?s=21

2

Journeyman Geek

No Comment :D

But hell yes I support that

Undo - Reinstate Monica

@GeorgeStocker For what it's worth, your Twitter commentary on this has been one of the most encouraging things for (at least) me. Probably others too.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker and I'm told it seems frighteningly insightful

George Stocker

The commentary?

Journeyman Geek

yup

Rob

2:28 AM

Reported a bug, fixed within minutes of my report being spotted (1/2 hour my clock). Satisfied customer.

Journeyman Geek

Otherwise we're talking about the new rules, and nothing insightful about that :D.

Cody Gray

> If you want to try to out rules lawyer a programmer, you deserve what you get. They battle a system of rules every minute of every day.

6

My thoughts exactly.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray I used to say the same about gamers.

We're geeks. We work through insanely complicated things for fun.

Mithical

4:21 AM

> "Wake me up inside... Call my name and save me..."

Journeyman Geek

> So bury fear, for fate draws near
And hide the signs of pain
With noble acts, the bravest souls
Endure the heart's remains
Discard regret, that in this debt
A better world is made
That children of a newer day might remember
And avoid our fate

(for those uneducated :D ) '=

Evanescence - Bring Me To Life (Official Music Video)

►

The Cruxshadows - Winterborn

►

user400654

👍

👎

Mithical

4:41 AM

*big sigh*

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

A big thanks to the MSE mods for keeping level-headed during these hard times.

@JourneymanGeek Spam account: meta.stackexchange.com/users/687363/velofelmalusa

Feeds

5:03 AM

The projection does a good job preserving both distance and azimuth, at the cost of really exaggerating how many South Americas there are.

Mithical

5:38 AM

Just a bit over a hundred upvotes to go before Shog's answer becomes the top-voted answer on MSE.

Magisch

6:39 AM

@CodyGray There are probably thousands of managers who made the experience that you can't rules lawyer a programmer painfully ;)

user400654

o/

Cody Gray

Well, I've always been a big supporter of education.

yivi

7:07 AM

While these are valiant and laudable efforts; I remember when the new featured tag policy came in effect, just after removing HMP, someone said "don't let this become the new hot meta posts!"; which I guess will be the argument to remove mod access to featured if the "mutiny" continues.

We are at a point where I'm not sure anything but exodus is really operative. My only problem is finding an appropriate place to migrate. But I imagine that will reveal itself, eventually.

2

Magisch

@yivi I think thats inevitable at this point

Jodrell

Yes but where to go, is it really that bad?

Magisch

If they don't remove the mod access to featured there'll basically be a long chain of posts sharply critical of SE that will be featured on SO. Basically, they're looking at months of anti-company sentiment on the sidebar. Considering how nuclear they went over some resignation notices, I can't imagine they'll abide this.

Cody Gray

@yivi You don't like the strategy of playing chicken?

Magisch

I don't think it's constructive but I don't begrudge y'all for doing it and would probably do exactly the same were I a SO mod

Cody Gray

7:16 AM

If I really knew what would be constructive, I would absolutely do that instead, and convince everyone else to do it, too.

Magisch

Thats a fair point

Cody Gray

I would swallow my pride, get over the incredible emotional hurt that I feel, and do that. But what is "that"?

Absent any better path, all I can do is stand up for what I believe is right.

Magisch

I had some suggestions in my meta post, but they all involve a certain amount of wait and see

if I was a mod I'd endeavour to be on the new mod advisory council

Cody Gray

I...have been waiting for a while now

Magisch

I don't know what the mod team looks like but posting feedback there is probably at least getting read vs what happens on meta

they might not act on it but maybe they read some of it

Cody Gray

7:19 AM

I wouldn't assume that, Magisch.

The mod team is a lot like Meta, except that certain confidential mod-only information can be shared.

The people who read and participate there are the same people who read and participate on Meta: the CMs and certain devs.

Magisch

really? I thought it'd be less confrontational

Cody Gray

Which...makes sense, since those are the people whose job it is to actually interact with us, so that doesn't imply anything sinister.

Oh, um. I guess it is? I don't know. I mean, we certainly speak our mind when we disagree with something.

Magisch

yeah but I assume the folks at the top would be more inclined to gather feedback there then on meta

if at all

Cody Gray

I don't personally feel that Meta is all that confrontational, although to be fair, I hardly ever monitor MSE anymore. I spend all of my time on MSO. But I pretty much read every post on MSO (totally insane, I realize).

I...also might have a higher bar for "confrontational" than others do.

Magisch

MSE is pretty confrontational

understandably so, but going against the grain there is super draining and exhausting. If you're an employee and post there, chances are you'll be wading through dozens of comments telling you how horrible your decisions and ideas are every day. The feedback itself isn't all too bad, just sometimes abrasive, but the shee amount of it makes it very daunting I imagine.

Cody Gray

7:24 AM

Well, two things. First, if the vast majority of feedback you're getting is negative, that is a pretty good clue that it's time to step back and re-think your fundamental assumptions. In that sense, I find it highly valuable. Second, I tried putting myself in exactly that position by voluntarily choosing to announce the question upvote reputation gain change on MSO. Lots of downvotes, lots of criticisms, but almost none of them were offensive, abusive, or inappropriate.

It didn't bother me at all. It actually gave me confidence in the community.

I love nothing more than the fact that we have a passionate, dedicated, vocal group of users who care.

One of the things that drives me nuts about the world at large, and microcosms of that world (e.g., my workplace), is that there aren't enough people who care. There aren't enough people with passion.

The absolute most important thing you can have is passion. Sometimes you'll be wrong, sometimes you'll be right, but that's inevitable. We can't all be right all the time. But we can have passion for what we believe in, and we can fight for it.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be open-minded. I try very hard to be, although I sometimes fail at it. But passion is very important, too.

Magisch

@CodyGray This is only true if you believe the people on there have valueable points to make

Cody Gray

Some people almost certainly don't have valuable points to make. That's a reality of life. Some people's input is less valuable than others

But...so what?

JAD

or if you aren't utterly convinced in your own fundament

Cody Gray

You take the good, ignore the bad, and we're all better off for it.

Magisch

if your operating assumption that meta is frequented primarily by the toxic 0,025% that you're trying to get rid of in favor of more people, then the perception shifts entirely

Cody Gray

7:27 AM

That's why ~~God~~ Jeff Atwood invented downvote buttons.

JAD

no downvote buttons on comments though

Cody Gray

Yeah, I....um, I have a real problem with labeling people as "toxic".

It's at least as abusive as any other negative label.

@JAD I have a "delete" button, though. Muahahaha!

Magisch

imagine you're a senior manager. What is an easier pill to swallow. that you've been colossally wrong in nearly all your plans in the past months or that a toxic minority is trying to detract

Jodrell

Didn't this all start with a disagreement about the fine points and usage of gender neutral pronouns. From outside, it looks like someone neutral and mutually trusted needs to moderate between the Moderators and SO and its employees.

In the end, we all want our vision of the same thing and both SO and the moderators have heavily invested in achieving that.

Is some sort of tribunal required?

Cody Gray

@Magisch Honestly? When a substantial number of people are making logical arguments? That I've been wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that I've been colossally wrong, and it surely won't be the last.

Magisch

7:29 AM

If you consider that they also view the existing userbase as elitist, unwelcoming, sexist and racist (to a degree) then that becomes even more lopsided

Cody Gray

Yes. If you start with prejudices, then it makes it very difficult to be fair and rational.

QED.

These things cut both ways, in other words. Something that I think is very important to keep in mind.

Sometimes, people are wrong. That's a thing, and you need to call it out. But dismissing them on some fundamental basis, well, that's just as bigoted and unreasonable.

Magisch

Well, that's kind of a feature of modern society. If you've labeled someone as something horrible, they by definition can't have good ideas

thats why labels are often used to end debates

Jodrell

They key takeaway is, "sometimes I am wrong."

JAD

@Jodrell 1) I think what you mention what happened is part of a bigger thing and 2) that would require SO to have any interest in such mediation. That doesn't sound likely to me.

Cody Gray

It's a feature of modern society that needs to be stamped out as hard as possible. It's something that I strongly believe each of us needs to work diligently every day to make sure that we don't fall victim to.

Totalizing assumptions are both inevitable (maybe even necessary, considering the complexity of the world) and also incredibly dangerous, so they need to be used with all the attendant caution implied by that danger.

Jodrell

7:34 AM

@JAD, that is they pivotal question, I think. How important are independent moderators, how important do SO think independent moderators are? Can they be replaced etc.

Magisch

@CodyGray I tend to agree. But the fact that you think it's abhorrent doesn't mean it's not prevalent

If you want to understand exactly why people act the way they act you need to take context into account. In the eyes of SEI management we're toxic and probably 4-5 types of -ist. At that point listening to us is viewed as a moral failing

Cody Gray

@Jodrell None of this really started with pronouns/CoC. That was just a "test case", effectively proving that the moderators and the larger community are not being listened to. I don't know of any moderators who opposed the idea of treating everyone with dignity and respect. Rather, we were concerned about the way that these policies were rolled out. Procedural concerns, as opposed to substantive ones.

4

Magisch

The points and arguments don't matter so much as their framing does.

JAD

@Jodrell they could be replaced by employees (which costs money, so is probably a no-go), or the dissenting volunteers can be replaced by new volunteers

@CodyGray and that in the light of a community (seemingly) foaming at the idea of having to use pronouns

Cody Gray

It isn't about replacing the moderators. We probably are expendable. It's about replacing the communities: the experts, the advocates.

JAD

7:37 AM

well, the same argument for moderators can be used for powerusers

out with the old, in with the new, and hope the general public doesn't notice too much

Cody Gray

Not really. There are a limited number of experts who are willing to dedicate themselves to this. Moderators are a much smaller number, so there are plenty of others who are willing to fill those spots. But if you lose all of the experts, there aren't just hundreds of others waiting in the wings to fill those spots.

JAD

which means that there will be a shift in definition of expert, and that same hope that the general public does not notice that

Magisch

the next SO elections will be the easiest it'll probably ever be to win

they'll need to fill like 6 spots. basically half or more of the people who pass the primary will win

Cody Gray

I can name easily a dozen people who could replace me as moderator (would they be willing at this point? I don't know. But that isn't really the point). I cannot, however, name even a couple of people who would be willing and able to post the type of quality content that our departing experts generate.

JAD

regardless, there will be a group of active users that is answering most questions

Cody Gray

7:39 AM

I mean, yeah. If you lower your standards, you'll get more 'experts'.

You'll also turn into Quora or Yahoo Answers.

Jodrell

@CodyGray, and the experts did vote for the moderators.

@JAD I'd the suggest that paid, unelected replacements, would be costly. Would modertors do a better job if they were paid, I doubt it.

Magisch

@JAD yeah but the quality of answers will be in a nosedive

Cody Gray

Those sites exist, but they're an entirely different model, and a lot less successful.

JAD

> and that same hope that the general public does not notice that

It seems that that's what SO is banking on

Cody Gray

@Magisch Yeah... I fear it's gonna a be a troll-fest. I don't know realistically how many spots they'll have open for a single election. But either way, it's worrisome.

Magisch

7:41 AM

when the answers you get stop being useful you bet they'll notice

Cody Gray

The luster of the brand will go on for a while, but things are already starting to decline. Questions are less likely to get high-quality answers, or even answered at all. Fewer people are showing up at Stack Overflow as a result of Google searches.

Magisch

@CodyGray considering 10-15 of the usual suspects will probably not run due to being discouraged or having left, it'll probably be a swath of 50-150k users who run on the "We won't close any questions and sanction users who do" platform that 3 candidates ran on in the last election

JAD

It's not like people haven't been shouting this for years, and so far it appears to have fallen on deaf ears

Magisch

and inertia and rep means several of those will win

fun times and good luck ;)

Cody Gray

I have made the point elsewhere that this may be the first time that a Stack Overflow election fractures into political parties.

George Washington will roll over in his grave.

Magisch

7:43 AM

tbh though it won't matter

Cody Gray

So you think. Imagine the brawls in our private channels. :-)

Magisch

SO elections are decided by people who vote because they got the notification, not by anyone who reads meta or the answers or anything

what will be interesting is how this shakes out. I imagine there'll be a huge schism in the mod teams

Cody Gray

You know, I've thought about that before. Many times. When I was running, obviously, and then even after that. Why is it that, even though you'd think it was just any Random Joe voting, even those who don't care about Meta and presumably don't share the same views as the Meta audience, and vastly outnumber the Meta crowd, the candidates that agree with me are the ones who consistently win, with the others not even coming close?

Magisch

also because every single existing mod can indefinitely veto any former mod returning, that might get really interesting

ert

@CodyGray They probably check the primary scores

Magisch

7:45 AM

@CodyGray I'd assume presentation and eloquence

ert

I know I did when I first voted, before I discovered meta

Cody Gray

Okay. Whatever the reason, it works.

ert

Also, the winners tended to be better speakers (or writers)

Cody Gray

Hmm. I don't know?

JAD

maybe the meta opinion makes sense?

and also appeals to users that don't use meta?

Cody Gray

7:46 AM

I think @JAD's theory makes more sense. I don't want to insult anyone who has run and won moderator elections on SO, because I have a massive amount of respect for the entire team, but I don't necessarily think they were the most eloquent and most presentable of all candidates.

You fools voted for me, after all. :-)

ert

Eloquent in general, or eloquent in the nomination post?

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I mean, you can't really just say 'I object'. You're kinda expected to say why ;)

JAD

@Tinkeringbell is it that hard to find a bogus reason?

PM 2Ring

There was a mod election on Mathematics in August last year, before Monica was demodded. It's a fairly busy site, but there weren't many mod candidates until the nomination period was almost over. One of the few candidates nominated themself just to make up the numbers, even though their rep was quite low (around 500, IIRC), and they hadn't posted a question or answer for over a year.

in Python on Stack Overflow Chat, Aug 2 '18 at 15:48, by PM 2Ring

Speaking of SE.mathematics, there's an election on there at the moment, still in the nominations phase. One of the mods there retired recently, due to burnout. I visited the election page yesterday, and things are looking pretty dire. So far, there are only 4 candidates, and two of them strike me as definitely unsuitable.

Jodrell

When I vote, I first pick anyone I'm familiar with and like. After that, I filter on primary scores and pick based on the statements.

Magisch

7:47 AM

@Tinkeringbell I'm pretty sure you could come up with a passable reason for everyone you ever met

JAD

especially since many of the resignations happened during the pronoun-debacle?

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I ... mean ... sure but ... I'd expect people to poke through that?

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell normally I'd agree with you but the CM team is doing the work of 10 people with 4

JAD

depends on how hard people are willing to dig

Cody Gray

@Magisch Nah. I can't come up with a single reason why Shog shouldn't be moderator, for example.

ert

7:49 AM

I remember a particular comment on my nomination saying I was 'affluent' enough to be a moderator...

Magisch

@CodyGray I can. It'll be bogus and unfair, but I could probably make it sound like a sincerely held objection

JAD

@CodyGray just ask Evan for some inspiration

ert

Perhaps it was a translation error, or it means something different elsewhere... but I wasn't sure how to answer that

Cody Gray

@JAD Sigh. I guess I am not as 'creative' as Evan.

JAD

;)

Magisch

7:50 AM

It's helpful to keep the asymmetry of BS in mind

it's a lot easier to make up semi-plausible sounding BS then to disprove it

Jodrell

Just think of contemporary political leaders

JAD

don't even have to look at politics. A single glance at the internet suffices

Magisch

It's a legitimate (as in it works) political tactic. You can use it together with projecting strength and presupposing a frame to effectively keep your opponent on the defense permanently if they're not unethical enough to do the same to you

Jodrell

these things are intertwined or, did I just get old and grumpy

Cody Gray

@Magisch This is not my personal experience, but I realize that I am very different in this respect and completely take your point.

Magisch

7:53 AM

you're not dishonest enough for the world of politics

JAD

@Jodrell it's not new (look at propaganda), but it's definitely a lot easier with the global media we have now

with global media being wider than just the internet

It's also very easy to reach loads of people with your BS

Cody Gray

@Magisch I'm not even remotely suitable for politics. I recognize that.

Making people happy is...not one of my skills.

Magisch

your entire mode of thinking is based in the frame of what is right and honest and ethical. You approach winning through that frame and within that frame. If you discard that and think in the frame of winning and appearing ethical, that's when you come closer to be able to understand how most politicians work

ert

@CodyGray "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job"

Magisch

I like thought experiments in other frames. I like approaching any issue from a multitude of viewpoints to see if I have blind spots. But yeah, I'm not ruthless enough to be a politician either

Jodrell

7:55 AM

So, while SO and SE are not immune. One of the things that draws "evidence based practitioners" like myself, is that the content is more balanced and assured than the opinion and "alternative facts" we might find elsewhere.

PM 2Ring

@Magisch From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit#Bullshit_asymmetry_principle "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Alberto Brandolini

Cody Gray

@Magisch It isn't ruthlessness that I lack.

Magisch

coming up with plausible but bogus claims is really easy

JAD

Also, can you imagine the problems when text-generating AI advances far enough to randomly generate news articles?

Cody Gray

@JAD Wait, we have to wait for that to happen?

JAD

7:57 AM

they're almost there

Magisch

@CodyGray nah you do. You don't lie without flinching. You don't go for the low blows because they're effective. You don't manipulate people enough. In short you're not playing the game, you're taking the whole thing seriously

I class that as lacking ruthlessness

JAD

or maybe they are there, and it's just the prompts that need tweaking

Jodrell

@JAD, @CodyGray, happening already, Facebook, Twitter

Magisch

@JAD That's already in use

Cody Gray

And even in academic journals

Magisch

7:59 AM

If you were any of those things I wouldn't have voted for you in the mod election, though.

Cody Gray

@Magisch I find the truth to be more convincing, and high blows to be more effective. It takes more work, for sure, but I don't struggle with that.

Magisch

cause I despise politicians with a passion

Jodrell

The insidiousness, is that the most evocative and inflammatory BS is only "honey-dripped" into the ears of the receptive. So that it cannot be refuted.

Cody Gray

Dog-whistles are what I believe you're referring to, @Jodrell?

Jodrell

Like mass-gossip but more targeted

@CodyGray

Magisch

8:01 AM

@CodyGray That depends on the target audience. A discerning and informed electorate? Sure. People who are angry and just want someone to be their lynchpin and tell them everything's gonna be aliright? nah

Jodrell

@CodyGray, yes, that what I mean

This stuff is used to win/control elections.

It makes SO and SE look like an Ivory Tower.

JAD

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that

Cody Gray

@Magisch Which brings us to the question I raised obliquely earlier: how did I (and all the others like me) manage to win the SO election? None of us were pandering, all of us held primarily appeal for a 'discerning and informed electorate'.

Although...most of us were angry, most of us did have a passion.

Magisch

I don't know. Maybe it's colored by my own experiences, but the SO election always looked like a popularity contest to me

usually the majority of the candidates was qualified and good, so whoever got elected basically mattered very little

Cody Gray

That can't be right, either. I've never been popular.

Jodrell

8:09 AM

@JAD, The problems here, on SE and SO, between the Moderators and the Company, may seem intractable and deadlocked. However, if you step back, and look at wider society, it seems more like this problem only exists because of the efforts, by both groups, to make a viable and good quality site. Neither side is bombarding the community with BS in a cynical attempt to seize unfettered control.

Magisch

@CodyGray you were most of all visible

Cody Gray

Glasses do tend to make things visible.

JAD

very recognisable avatar

Magisch

I go for known-good over unknown 100% of the time in these things. I assume most voters also do. When someone visited meta in the 3 years or so before you became a mod, your name was definitely popping up in most threads

My decision making process for mod elections is: 1. Known really good -> known good -> known competent -> unknown (I'll read answers and dig deeper then)

Cody Gray

@Magisch This is very normal. Or, at least, this is my process.

However, in the last election in particular, it was a lot more difficult, as there were a number of "known really good" candidates.

Magisch

8:12 AM

so given that there are more people who could do the job then spots, people who fit that criteria and are visible are more likely to get my vote

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch That honestly doesn't explain the awful runner up in IPS's pro-tem election though...

Cody Gray

Suggesting that we really need to induce good candidates to run.

Magisch

@CodyGray Will probably be quite hard

Cody Gray

Don't think it's appropriate to name names.

Magisch

most of those have left the site, or are considering leaving

PM 2Ring

8:14 AM

@Tinkeringbell In what way were they awful?

Magisch

IPS probably had a decent chunk of protest voting

Cody Gray

At the risk of offending someone, I think IPS is a special case in almost every way.

JAD

@CodyGray I think TWP is offended

the OG special case

Magisch

leave TWP alone

shoo

Jodrell

what is IPS?

Magisch

8:18 AM

totally unbiased because TWP is my main site

Cody Gray

Yeah, and then there's TWP: Academia.

In the vein of CSI: Miami.

Tinkeringbell

@PM2Ring No respect for personal boundaries, and no activity for over a year, which showed in their reviewing activities (had to ban them shortly after the election was over).

Cody Gray

@Tinkeringbell Seems like the ban came just a bit too late? :-)

Tinkeringbell

@Jodrell Interpersonal Skills ;)

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell you remember IPS had a sizeable exodus from the site following backup policies and changing scope right

Tinkeringbell

8:19 AM

@CodyGray Hey, if people don't do a thing for over a year, it's hard to ban them for not doing anything...

Jodrell

@Tinkeringbell Thx

Magisch

everyone who is technically eligible gets pinged when voting begins

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I do. But we're left with a much quieter and more focused site that actually has some subject matter...

And a close-knit group of regulars :)

Cody Gray

Ah. I was wondering how "no activity for a year" could have "showed in their reviewing activities". :-)

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell right. But a lot of people who left are kind of bitter about the whole thing

Cody Gray

8:20 AM

So, you guys basically recreated NPR -> Programmers -> Software Engineering.

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray It's like 'oooh, election. Let's nominate. Wait, people are commenting that I haven't done anything? Let's do all the things, wrong!' :P

@Magisch You can't please everyone.... We're still getting people that think the site is just a gossip corner, so we have ways to go still...

Magisch

hey, they were like 10 votes away from being your new colleague :D

JAD

What didn't help is that that the user in question was pretty visible and recognisable during the early days of the site, so those coming back might recognise them

Tinkeringbell

I bet if we were talking about the people that answer homework questions on SO, suddenly it's not a problem that they're disgruntled... but the people that want to gossip on IPS? Oh, they're to be pitied! ;)

@JAD Yeah, probably...

Gimby

@Tinkeringbell It isn't!?

Tinkeringbell

8:22 AM

@Magisch They weren't, because I would've resigned immediately ;)

Cody Gray

/goes to IPS to ask about being disgruntled over programming questions on SO

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray Check the help center ;)

It should point out that MSO is the place to ask about that :P

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell you're under the impression they'd let you leave?

Cody Gray

Don't tell me, you have specific verbiage forbidding questions about Stack Overflow?

Tinkeringbell

@Gimby It's a site for questions and answers about Interpersonal Skills. Interpersonal Skills are behaviours you use to interact with others well... I also have a more scientific definition lying around somewhere but no-one liked that one...

Magisch

8:24 AM

you didn't even want to be mod to begin with. We're not stuck here with you, you're stuck here with us :D

Tinkeringbell

> This site is specifically not here to discuss issues and disputes between users on the Stack Exchange Network. This site is not the “court of public opinion” of Stack Exchange. Please refer all concerns related to Stack Exchange to

the child meta of the site you are using
Meta Stack Exchange
the staff directly using the Contact link at the bottom of any page.

JAD

@CodyGray other sites in general. Most of those issues should be taken to their metas /MSEinstead of IPS

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I could've made them ;)

JAD

> court of public opinion

funny, because I thought IPS wasn't that in general

Cody Gray

Haha. Ahh. Love that "off topic" page.

It's like the signs in a restaurant saying "No dogs on the counter".

Clear evidence that at some point in the past, large numbers of people put their dogs on the counter.

Tinkeringbell

8:25 AM

Yep..

I'm glad we haven't yet needed to put up a 'no sex, drugs and rock&troll' notice.

Cody Gray

I'm happy to host the court of public opinion over on MSO.

It's Over

"No giant evil spiders hanging from the ceiling"

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray You'd accept questions ranting about IPS? ;)

It's Over

Good noon

Gimby

Judge Cody, I like it.

Tinkeringbell

8:26 AM

Hello :)

It's Over

@Gimby I'm already picturing a giant Lincoln

Cody Gray

Hard to think of a question that isn't ranting about interpersonal skills, just without the capitalization.

It's Over

y mod close teh duplicaet

Tinkeringbell

@Gimby I'm now imagining this one :P

Gimby

@Tinkeringbell Eek, he's penetrating my soul

It's Over

8:28 AM

This is inter- . . . I dunno. Human–computer relations?

Cody Gray

@Tinkeringbell That's a weird-looking Lincoln...

It's Over

Yeah did he shave or something

Cody Gray

And if you're imagining Judge Cody, you could at least pick someone with glasses!

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray Hmmm.

JAD

@Tinkeringbell that's where twitter is for right?

Tinkeringbell

8:29 AM

@JAD Sure go ahead ;) My account is protected so I won't see it anyways :P

Cody Gray

Yeah, Twitter was created for rants, I believe.

It's Over

@JAD Minor functionality but the whole world is better for it

Magisch

twitter was made for soundbytes

it has become death of modern discourse

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray Meh, the character limit doesn't allow for any appropriate amount of curse words.

Magisch

it epitomizes and focuses the labeling based worldview everywhere

I realize I'm extreme in that opinion but I think modern social media especially twitter and facebook are one of the worst things to ever happen to humanity

Cody Gray

8:31 AM

@Tinkeringbell Hmm, not something I'd have expected to hear you say. Perhaps I've misjudged?

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray If I rant... I go full out ;)

But yeah, I generally don't curse.

Cody Gray

@Magisch You are certainly not alone. I share this opinion.

Not sure if it's just because I think character limits are the worst thing to happen to humanity. Depends on if I've just hit the character limit for a comment on an SE site...

It's Over

@Magisch Well, you already know how much I LOVE Facebook

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell almost like you're too nice

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray or dogs can read

Tinkeringbell

8:35 AM

@Magisch Years and years of religious indoctrination, more like...

And my parents can still overhear if I don't time it just right ;)

Magisch

I was making a pun

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Ah, that one.

You caught me unaware ;)

Cody Gray

Hmm, and here I thought that was the primary difference between you Northern Europeans and us Americans: less zealous religious indoctrination.

Journeyman Geek

I literally was taught no cuss words

It's Over

@Magisch I don't get it

Cody Gray

8:36 AM

No one is taught them, dawg. You learn them on your own.

It's Over

@JourneymanGeek Raises an eyebrow

Journeyman Geek

I mean I was exposed to none till I was 18 🤣🤣🤣

Magisch

I rarely curse unless with friends, and i'm an atheist

so it's not just religious indoctrination

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray The Netherlands has a bible belt. We're living on the edge of that. Dad's definitely worse than mom, but it's still... My grandmother would never dream of commenting on a nice new outfit if it included a pair of pants, but would overload you with praise for the most drab skirt you could find.

Gimby

@Magisch Don't know about the worst things, but they're definitely tools to allow people to be extremely terrible.

It's Over

8:37 AM

@JourneymanGeek OK, if I had a third eyebrow, I would have raised it

Journeyman Geek

I can get sweary now. Mostly in English

Cody Gray

@Magisch Alternative theory: lingering religious undertones in your society that you no longer perceive as being connected to religion.

Magisch

I mean just randomly cursing weakens your point somewhat

it depends on the objective

It's Over

Astrophysics is a religion, for example

Magisch

here I'm talking among friends but usually also want to convey an idea

Cody Gray

8:38 AM

@Magisch I wish I could respond to that performatively, but I'm afraid of these blue people enforcing the rules...

Gimby

@CodyGray Smurfs?

It's Over

IRL I do curse once or twice per conversation (this is an extreme amount of restraint, BTW. My friends curse thrice in a sentence. Vote for me), way more often if I'm alone and cursing the hobbitses or inanimate objects.

Magisch

When I'm playing video games with friends I curse regularly though

It's Over

Turks are . . . very comfy with their swear words.

Gimby

I only curse at my computer and the TV when they're being mean to me.

Tinkeringbell

8:40 AM

@Magisch I can say I never do that :P Because I only did a multiplayer game once XD

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell doh!

JAD

@Tinkeringbell Dutch biblebelt is a bit weird, cause Utrecht appears to be in the way of things

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell so you grew up in a very conservative environment

JAD

Like, there's a Zeeland/Zuid-Holland part (and Katwijk), and the stretch east of Flevoland

BlueSoul

@It'sOver this.

> Professor Albert Einstein was asked by friends at a recent dinner party what new weapons might be employed in World War III. Appalled at the implications, he shook his head.

After several minutes of meditation, he said. “I don’t know what weapons might be used in World War III. But there isn’t any doubt what weapons will be used in World War IV.”

“And what are those?” a guest asked.

“Stone spears,” said Einstein.

the retelling is quite made up, but there are proof he DID say something very similar.

It's Over

8:44 AM

@BlueSoul well the one I heard was "sticks and stones"

JAD

I know that quote from Cards against Humanity :D

It's Over

I guess it's catchier that way.

BlueSoul

But he also probably wasn't the first one.

PM 2Ring

Most of the Dutch people I've met IRL & online are cool, groovy, and progressive. But the few conservative Dutch people I've encountered make the typical American Bible-Belter look like a rank amateur.

BlueSoul

there are some earlier references:

> Joe Laitin reports that reporters at Bikini were questioning an Army Lt. about what weapons would be used in the next war. I dunno, he said, but in the war after the next war, sure as hell, they’ll be using spears!

It's Over

8:45 AM

Nice

BlueSoul

so it is also possible that Einstein was quoting something he readed

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Yes.

@JAD yes too ;)

BlueSoul

and this could actually be a good question for Skeptics, assuming no one already asked that

It's Over

So I guess there will be World Peace as soon as we stop putting words in Einstein's mouth

FGS, what did he do, other than say "God doesn't throw mice"

@BlueSoul It already was asked IIRC

BlueSoul

@It'sOver more realistically, as soon as we manage to get extincted.

It's Over

8:47 AM

"I have an approximate knowledge of many things."

Cody Gray

Poor mice. They'll never understand quantum mechanics.

It's Over

Mark Twain said that. Or an Adventure Time character.

One of those

@CodyGray The least they can do is thanking physicists for throwing cats in boxes

BlueSoul

@It'sOver there was also the "an expert is one that know more and more about less and less.... to the point of knowing everything about nothing"

Cody Gray

That's true. Overall, I suspect mice like physicists much better than biologists.

It's Over

At least biologists don't boil their watches

They do feed the mice, even if it's weird Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles green goo

Tinkeringbell

8:53 AM

@CodyGray That's an experiment we now just have to have :P

rene

→ 30 messages moved to Chimney

BlueSoul

9:16 AM

@RichardsaysReinstateMonica see this question of mine and the almost duplicate here that contains a reply.

BlueSoul

9:56 AM

@Magisch I think that right now many mods wouldn't risk to end up in Google results.

djsmiley2k in darkness

/me looks in

Wibbles requested?

Tinkeringbell

wibbles mandatory.

;)

BlueSoul

@Tinkeringbell I blame the hand that put the Grudge Stones in the same pocket as the Pokeballs

Tinkeringbell

Prolly ;)

user1306322

I thought I knew things about pokemon but I guess I don't

djsmiley2k in darkness

9:59 AM

/me wibbles rapidly

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