Tavern on the Meta

6:51 AM

@Makyen I don't like version-tags. But since MSO already has an 'old-teams' tag, how about making the two tags the same, and do something like 'old-stack-overflow-jobs' or 'legacy-stack-overflow-jobs' on both MSO and MSE?

Elements In Space

7:23 AM

Is anyone else have trouble uploading images today?

Tinkeringbell

@ElementsInSpace Yep. "An error occured please try again"

Elements In Space

Okay, thanks!

Elements In Space

7:55 AM

Oh, it’s fixed again.

Tinkeringbell

Yay!

Means I can finally upload that picture of my garden to another chat :P

Elements In Space

Should I deleted my bug report or leave it up?

Tinkeringbell

Eh, no idea XD

Journeyman Geek

8:24 AM

@ElementsInSpace I'd leave it up until staff comment on it

@Marco If you want AI answers, ask an AI

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@JourneymanGeek beep boop! What is your question, human?

Journeyman Geek

8:42 AM

also with a prolific user, there's often linguistic or stylistic quirks

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

10:56 AM

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda Who was the sole survivor of Titanic?

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

11:12 AM

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard beep boop! Leo.

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda Can you give me a bibliography of sources that prove he was sole survivor of Titanic?

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard beep boop! As an AI agent, I can't give anything but my own hallucinations. Thanks for listening!

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

Hahaha

Journeyman Geek

→ 26 messages moved to Chimney

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

11:30 AM

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard nah, no spam there but better also keep the user in the blocklist, so IMO best is not give any feedback.

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

Got it.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

oh wait no, lol

Just noticed it's two posts, so yeah the one you replied to is indeed spam.

Just a link, to author's own page.

Marco

12:29 PM

@JourneymanGeek I said about responsible AI answers.

59

A: What might "responsible" (a.k.a. acceptable) use of AI look like on Stack Overflow?

The debate around using genAI in information gathering reminds me a lot of the debate that happened around using Wikipedia when it first came out. I think the answer is very similar too: Never use it as a primary source of information. If you find it helpful as a secondary source, and a stepping...

17 hours ago, by NotTheDr01ds

@Marco Related - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/426942/11810933

Journeyman Geek

1:00 PM

@Marco since its banned on the specific site, there's no such thing

If people wanted to consult AI, they can consult AI

SPArcheon

@JourneymanGeek I think that you should read the question...

> If the current policy were to be updated to allow responsible use of AI, what might that look like? Would the community support a trial period of a modified policy?

Seems pretty clear that this is a thought experiment

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon there's no such thing as a responsible use of AI in our context though, or rather the level of effort needed would be basically writing it yourself

SPArcheon

YAY!!! Microsoft broke the <ThemeProvider>! AGAIN!!!

This seems like a good and important question to me. If you agree that the answer is "I don't think there is any", upvote that answer. Downvoting the question ultimately reduces the visibility of that answer. — user56reinstatemonica8 Oct 24, 2023 at 16:28

Marco

1:29 PM

@JourneymanGeek I know that AI answers has been banned, this is a discussion about the possibility of responsible AI answers.

Journeyman Geek

@Marco People come here cause they want to tap on the expertise of people

not something they could get themselves on google, or some other place

So there is no "what if"

Marco

@JourneymanGeek AI answers are one thing, responsible AI answers are another thing. These would be answers that would have already been tested in principle by the user who answered.

Journeyman Geek

They're the same thing tho

If you're going to spend the effort to test, you never needed the AI

Marco

@JourneymanGeek You can have whatever opinion you want, I'm giving mine. The fact that they are based on AI answers does not mean that they are rubbish answers, even more so if they are properly reviewed and tested.

@JourneymanGeek Of course they are not

@JourneymanGeek No, often the person doesn't know exactly how to do something, they need help from the AI to give them some light.

Journeyman Geek

@Marco blind leading the blind then

SPArcheon

1:34 PM

@JourneymanGeek that's is a joke right? I see plenty of users that come here to POST self answers that can be easily got on google

Marco

Just because you're against it doesn't mean it's not viable.

@JourneymanGeek I disagree

Journeyman Geek

@Marco and yet, moderators end up wasting time cause people more often than not paste non cited, low quality answers, to the point a good chunk of the network wants them to go away

@Marco well, clearly you don't see the problem

Marco

It seems like you think AI-generated answers are utter rubbish

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon Well its an ideal

@Marco I believe it has no place here

Marco

@JourneymanGeek not cited? Rarely do I see citations in answers.

@JourneymanGeek no, I just have an opinion that differs from yours, the fact that you have an opinion does not mean that this is the absolute truth

Journeyman Geek

1:37 PM

@Marco I mean, literally these rules exist cause of abuse

Marco

In any case, I respect your opinion and the right to say it.

Journeyman Geek

You're free to use LLM tools seperately from SE

Marco

@JourneymanGeek I know the current rules, I repeat once again, we are discussing the possibility of exist responsible AI answers

Journeyman Geek

@Marco well its grounded on knowing how the network works, and dealing people trying to sneak in LLM answers as their own at best

Marco

@JourneymanGeek that is another matter, in the possibility of releasing accepting AI answers there could be an obligation to inform that the answer was based on AI

Journeyman Geek

1:41 PM

@Marco that's a critical part of responsibility

Marco

@JourneymanGeek yes, of course

I believe this is one of the reasons why it is called responsible AI answers

Journeyman Geek

149

A: What to do when plagiarism is discovered

A note on serial voting If you discover someone engaged in serial plagiarism, do not start running through their profile to downvote plagiarized answers. Serial voting is likely to be reversed, and it potentially gets you in trouble. Moderators have tools to deal with serial plagiarizers, includi...

Oh its plagiarism if you do, technically 2 levels down if your LLM dosen't reveal its source

AND citing is necessary but not sufficient to avoid plagiarising

so most LLM use is plagiarism, even if you cite

fundamentally its at odds with how we do things in general

Marco

@JourneymanGeek so you are highlighting that it is necessary to give credit to AI, ok, it's fair

Journeyman Geek

and not copy what the AI said wholesale

so essentially you check with the AI, go through the entire set of steps it gives, fix what's broken and by this point... you actually did it yourself

that can be a core of an answer but... you're not copying anything the AI actually said for your answer

Marco

what would the correct use of an AI answer look like, then, without copying it exactly?

Journeyman Geek

1:46 PM

exactly.

You don't

Tinkeringbell

At this point, not. Because unlike Wikipedia, the AI doesn't give sources.

Marco

@JourneymanGeek what?

Tinkeringbell

It isn't coming up with it's own ideas, it's using training material. But no AI references the used training material that went into generating its response at this point as far as I know.

Journeyman Geek

You don't copy exactly from other sources

Marco

@JourneymanGeek Ok, change 0.01% of the complete code and it's ok?

Journeyman Geek

1:48 PM

no

See, you're looking for a shortcut

Marco

how many %?

Meta Andrew T.

@Marco the help center explains how to do it

Marco

1%? 5%? 10%? 14.8%? 48.7%?

Journeyman Geek

@Marco How many percent of your answer do you need to understand?

Tinkeringbell

@MetaAndrewT. They're doing hypotheticals so the help center has no power here.

Meta Andrew T.

1:49 PM

oh wait, wrong site, MSE is a bit special...

Marco

@JourneymanGeek what?

terdon

@Tinkeringbell several do actually. They include a list of references as part of the answer.

Tinkeringbell

@terdon Reliably, at this point? Last time I heard about it (which is admittedly a while ago and these things go fast) the sources quoted were funny because they didn't exist.

Journeyman Geek

@Marco I mean, if you don't understand what you posted, what's the point?

Meta Andrew T.

@Tinkeringbell I mean, the help center on Android.SE explains how to do it properly (dunno why there are different versions of help center)

terdon

1:51 PM

@Tinkeringbell No, that's a whole different issue, you're thinking of the hallucinations. Apparently, newer models do indeed include sources. Actual links to things that exist.

Journeyman Geek

an LLM does not 'understand'

Marco

@JourneymanGeek and who said it wouldn't be understandable?

Tinkeringbell

@MetaAndrewT. Because at the time these pages were rolled out, not every site had even had a discussion about what they wanted to do (and some sites did want to allow it), so there were two pages. The ones on MSE and IPS were both edited to reflect the policies there ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Marco understand not understandable

SPArcheon

@JourneymanGeek ...see vsz's answer. Really, are you that sure this is not worth a question? Because wonder what, you are posting the same things that many have written far more extensively there. And... you may save your typing next time someone asks.

Tinkeringbell

1:52 PM

@terdon Okay, that's at least a kinda nice development in the area then. I shall slightly adjust my opinion on generative AI sucking to take that into account ;)

Second question: All those sources are 'legal' to use? :P

terdon

It still sucks. It just now sucks with references.

Tinkeringbell

No stolen art or stolen information?

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon these things are common sense :D

terdon

No idea

Tinkeringbell

No money being made off of things that are supposed to be freely available? :P

Heh, then it still sucks yeah ;)

Meta Andrew T.

1:54 PM

@Tinkeringbell ah, right, we did have a discussion on our sites, but didn't explicitly request it on the announcement...

Tinkeringbell

@MetaAndrewT. Then go run and edit the help center page before someone discovers it and says 'I was allowed to do that' :P

SPArcheon

@Tinkeringbell naah, stolen art is all on those who made the dataset, not the model.

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon who IMO are guilty too.

Tinkeringbell

@SPArcheon The ones making the datasets aren't the ones making the models? Why are the ones making the models using those datasets then, and not being more responsible?

Are they merely a victim of 'false advertising'?

"our dataset is entirely legal and stolen-art free" except it wasnt?

Meta Andrew T.

I wonder about that actually. Asking Google Bard to draw a popular cartoon character, returned an eerily-similar to an original image.

SPArcheon

1:56 PM

@Tinkeringbell 90% of the models are actually "fine-tuning of [insert another model here] and no one has idea of what is inside.

@Tinkeringbell Are you quoting Astralite now ? :P Seems pretty close to the claims about Pony V6.

Tinkeringbell

@SPArcheon Not specifically Astralite I think, just capitalism in general :P

Such claims are made here all the time and then turning out to be false.

IIRC, this week there was an announcement of a group starting court cases against claims of 'climate/environmentally friendly cruises'

SPArcheon

@MetaAndrewT. mumble...

Tinkeringbell

And a message about a supermarket having to adjust its advertising (green claims), and also a energy provider I think.

SPArcheon

Claim: "Pony v6 does not contain specific artist embedding, you are unable to replicate specific artist"
Truth: "Pony v6 artist names have been scrambled so that hopefully users won't find out while the model creator has full access to everything"

see this picture from Lumineko.

I think it is pretty blatant that this is the same "style"

second one is AI

notice how the model actually "glitched out" and tried to replicate the signature

Tinkeringbell

Eh, those look different enough to me... loads of those all looking similar on the internet these days, it sometimes seems it's all people know how to draw.

Way too big eyed cartoons.

I agree the signature is weird though.

SPArcheon

2:03 PM

@Tinkeringbell it is not just that, it is the reflections on the hair, the watercolor style, the face shape etc... trust me, you can clearly recognize the original artist style here. I'll spare you more examples

NotTheDr01ds

@Tinkeringbell Several do provide references, including Gemini and Copilot.

Gemini, especially after the deal with SE, is pretty dang good about always referencing SE answers when they are used in the result.

Tinkeringbell

@NotTheDr01ds Yeah, so I was told :) So I will quote, with reference:

11 mins ago, by terdon

It still sucks. It just now sucks with references.

SPArcheon

@Tinkeringbell I dare to suggest a better one, posted by yours truly.

Oct 18, 2023 at 15:07, by SPArcheon

@Feeds LLM are very relevant. As a substitute of good old Zork, that is.

Tinkeringbell

Eh, I have a reasonable memory but that was too long ago

NotTheDr01ds

@Marco Keep in mind that although I posted that question about "responsible use", the vast majority of AI posts here don't begin to approach responsible use. And if I thought that there was a certain high-rep user who could be used as an example of "response use", I'd probably jump on it, but I have yet to see one that is, without getting into specifics.

@Tinkeringbell Oh, who could forget being eaten by a Grue? ;-)

Tinkeringbell

2:11 PM

Well it's easy to not remember something if it never happened, or if it's a part of history you never learned about :P

SPArcheon

@NotTheDr01ds Once upon a time, a crazy user made an Advent Calendar as their submission to a network contest... let's just say that it had Zork too.

it also had some references to a certain red parrot to be fair...

Marco

@JourneymanGeek And who said it wouldn't be understandable? You were talking about not being able to copy everything from the answer, and I started talking about what minimal changes should be made to not be considered plagiarism.

@NotTheDr01ds That's another matter, but it would be a matter of education.

@JourneymanGeek and who said it wouldn't possible understand the question? Are you considering adjusting the question to make it understandable? Okay, but who said this wouldn't be done?

terdon

2:40 PM

@Marco If you are just reproducing work from somewhere else, then there is no magic percentage. You are presenting someone else's work as your own, so it is plagiarism even if you change 100% of it. When you use information from somewhere else, you cite your source. And then you use that information in your own brain and apply it to answer the specific question.

Marco

But I don't said anywhere that it wouldn't be cited, in any case, this would be a rule imposed by Stack Exchange, let me know that other broader impositions exist regarding the fact that using AI content is considered plagiarism, considering that certain things are changed so as not to be 100% the same, especially considering that is a code, does ChatGPT say that their answers must be cited?

on the contrary, I said that I would be cited it on SE answers

Also any allegation of plagiarism must be proven, I want to see how they will prove that modified programming code answers (for example) that were based on AI came from AI, this is completely insane.

Marco

3:07 PM

If I had answers posted on AI that were deemed to be AI-sourced by SE moderation, I would require them to prove that they are AI-sourced.

Without proofs, there is no breaking of rules.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco still didn't read the context or way up, but I can say already that you're fighting windmills.

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda what do you mean?

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

There are certain rules set in place, and certain ways to enforce them, which proved to be worthy. One can disagree, it's legit, but if applied and enforced i.e. someone found "guilty", that's the end of it and can't be just dismissed.

VonC accepted it, which kind of proves my point.

He could resist, rally, try and rebel etc. He didn't.

Marco

If they're proof, that's fine, if they're not, no, it's simple. If the moderation and/or staff don't want to prove it, that's another matter.

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda Yes, I know

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda Sure

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco well in this case the problem is that the proof isn't public, and not sure they show it even to the offender, so we have to just believe the moderators.

Marco

3:14 PM

but then it would be a question of law, etc., that's another matter, I imagine that any accusation must have proof, like any act that is considered illegal.

If someone says you killed someone, arrests you, and doesn't want to show any evidence, is that ok?

Wouldn't you demand proof? Isn't it how it works?

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda Of course he could.

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda So does that mean that if someone accuses you of murder, that's enough to arrest you? :P

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco law in Stack Exchange aren't country laws, proof doesn't have to public, it's kind of like in dictatorship.

And it's not always bad. :)

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda wrong, SE must follow US laws, where the company is headquartered.

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda I didn't say they need to be public, but they must be presented to the accused.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco there is no law in USA saying "you must not suspend a user on a website without a public proof". :)

@Marco but if by presenting them you harm the place itself, I can understand and accept why it's not being done.

If the people using AI in bad faith will know the ways it's being detected, they'll be able to evade it.

It's one of those cases where things aren't black and white, there's a "grey zone".

but perhaps I need to read here all the messages I missed while pondering all the pings in the Den... ;)

ah oops missed pings here too. D:

setting a timer

Marco

3:43 PM

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda Again I say, I'm not talking about public proof, I'm talking about proof to the accused. And I am sure that any type of punishment, even if carried out administratively by a website, must respect the vigent laws (In this case, US laws), so, if it turns out that the punishment is not complying with the laws, the user has every right to take legal action.

10. General Provisions
a. Assignment and Jurisdiction
Stack Overflow reserves the right to assign our rights and obligations under these Public Network Terms (in whole or in part) without your consent to a corporate affiliate, or in connection with a merger, acquisition, corporate restructure or reorganization, or due to the sale of all or substantially all of our assets.

These Public Network Terms will be governed by and construed in accordance with the applicable laws of the State of New York, without giving effect to the principles of that State regarding conflicts of laws. Both you and…

stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public

Elements In Space

boring

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco no, but can't explain it any better, so afraid you'll have to accept it's just won't be possible to appeal SE suspension by going to USA authorities.

I mean, one can try, sure...

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda What? Are you saying that a company's rules take precedence over the country's laws? Unless you prove me wrong, your argument is weak, I have already shown you the terms of service that prove me right.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@NotTheDr01ds ah OK, so glad it was eventually done anyway. :)

Marco

I don't have to accept anything unless I'm proven wrong.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

3:50 PM

@Marco pretty sure there's something like that in Judaism as well, i.e. to forgive sinners, let me see if I'm correct...

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda I didn't understand

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda nice

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda why can't you explain it better?

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

oops, we don't have to forgive:

Marco

chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/9842487#9842487: that prove that I'm right*

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

> While there are psychological benefits to forgiveness, you don't have to forgive someone who has hurt you. There are times when it's fine to not forgive someone. It's also important to understand what it means to forgive someone as well as what forgiveness is not.

Marco

complex

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

3:59 PM

@Marco TL;DR is that Jewish people don't have to turn the other cheek. :)

@Marco well not now for sure, might give this another try at some point later aka 6-8.

Marco

hmmm

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda aka 6-8?

terdon

@Marco sorry but you are completely wrong. There is no law that could possibly be relevant. If SE wanted to suspend you because they hate all users whose name starts with an M, they would have every legal right to do so. It is always futile when users try to bring "laws" into it. Like all those people yelling about their "right" to free speech, which is just not relevant in this context.

This is a privately owned space and SE reserve the right to deny you access for any reason they might choose. From stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public:

> Stack Overflow reserves the right to refuse, suspend or terminate your access to the public Network if it determines, in its sole discretion, that you have in any way violated these Public Network Terms or are otherwise ineligible to access or use the Network or Services.
If your actions are determined by us to violate these Public Network Terms, Stack Overflow may, in its sole discretion, try to remediate that violation by working with you individually, but is under no obligation to do so, and if any such remediation efforts are unsuccessful (in Stack Overflow’s sole discretion), then St…

Marco

@terdon so prove that I'm wrong.

@terdon "These Public Network Terms will be governed by and construed in accordance with the applicable laws of the State of New York, without giving effect to the principles of that State regarding conflicts of laws."

terdon

Well, first, no, you prove you're right, why should I need to prove you wrong? Second, I just did. By using the network, you have agreed to the terms above which include "Stack Overflow reserves the right to refuse, suspend or terminate your access to the public Network if it determines, in its sole discretion, that you have in any way violated these Public Network Terms or are otherwise ineligible to access or use the Network or Services."

In other words "we can suspend you and we get to decide if and when".

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco unspecified time range, can be 6-8 minutes, hours, days, or more. :)

Marco

4:06 PM

@terdon I've already shown the section that the SE is governed by the laws of the state of New York, if that's not enough for you, I'm sorry.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

I mean, you might be correct, my current arguments might be weak. So I'll try to make them stronger at some point.

terdon

Not to mention that, in typically sneaky SE fashion, they also say that if you use the network, you give up your right to take them to court. Those of us who were around at the time were given the option to opt out of this, but very few people did, and nobody has been given that option since:

> PLEASE BE AWARE THAT BY USING THE PUBLIC NETWORK, EXCEPT FOR CERTAIN TYPES OF DISPUTES DESCRIBED IN THE SECTION TITLED “MANDATORY ARBITRATION” BELOW, YOU AGREE THAT ALL DISPUTES BETWEEN YOU AND US WILL BE RESOLVED BY BINDING, INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT OR CLASS-WIDE ARBITRATION.

Marco

You're the one saying I'm wrong, if the public prosecutor accuses you that you killed someone, they have to prove that you killed someone, remember the famous phrase: innocent until proven guilty.

terdon

@Marco ah but you are ignoring a very important part of what you quoted: it mentions applicable laws, so the burden is on you to find some law that could somehow be relevant to a private company refusing service to a specific individual who has not paid that company any money and just wants to use the company's services for free.

@Marco Right. And obviously, refusing access to the SE network is comparable to murder, right?

Marco

I'm talking about existing laws, no matter what they are

@terdon I'm not a lawyer, but what I know is that laws prevail over any administrative rules that are below, so this would not be valid.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

4:10 PM

@terdon if someone is actually addicted, for real, to SE.... then there might be the chance for actual harm. We can't ignore that, and it's part of why I said I might try and check this again at some point.

terdon

@Marco What laws are relevant? You claim that apparently, there are some "applicable laws". What laws? And you still seem to ignore the fact that the terms state that by using the site you give up your right to take them to court.

Marco

@terdon I don't have to find anything, you're the one who said I'm wrong, so it's up to you to prove me wrong, but I'm not demanding you do that, do it if you want

@terdon Repeating: I'm not a lawyer, but what I know is that laws prevail over any administrative rules that are below, so this would not be valid.

terdon

I have already done so, but yes, I'm happy to leave it. I do urge you to actually read stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public though, you might be surprised.

Marco

@terdon Repeating: I'm not a lawyer, but what I know is that laws prevail over any administrative rules that are below, so this would not be valid.

There is no dictatorship in the USA

terdon

@Marco So you are saying that you don't know about law, and cannot point to any laws that could be relevant but that in the case where such laws you don't know might exist and might be relevant, those laws would be applicable? I mean sure, that's a self evidently true statement (if laws are applicable they would be applicable) but it isn't very useful.

Marco

4:12 PM

Stack Exchange is not a lawless place, a wild west

@terdon I said that what I know is that laws prevail over any rules that are beneath them. Only that. I'm tired of this topic, I'm not going to answer you any more about it.

terdon

No, it isn't. But user suspensions just don't come under any law I can imagine. This is a free service, you haven't paid anything, so you don't have any "right" to access the network. You do have a right to privacy, for instance, and if SE were to do something with your private data that could indeed become a legal issue, but if you want to argue that suspensions are covered by national legislation, you will need to make a stronger argument.

Marco

@terdon I've said everything I had to say, I'm not going to answer you anymore.

SPArcheon

@terdon and how to forget how the clause was - and probably is - illegal and void in many EU countries...

terdon

@Marco That... is a confusing statement :)

@SPArcheon that whole thing was an unholy mess.

SPArcheon

> that whole thing ~~was~~ is an unholy mess.

Marco

4:16 PM

@terdon Is saying that I've already said everything I had to say and that I don't want to answer you any more confusing for you? Wow, ok then

terdon

Then please stop pinging me.

Marco

Ok, no problem :)

@SPArcheon yeah, that is super weird

Wait

What do you mean, really?

SPArcheon

@Marco I mean that the arbitration clause is probably void in any state under GDPR ruling. Not a lawyer, but you can start here if you are interested. Sadly, I can't give more insight than that.

79

A: We're examining the implementation of arbitration in the 2018 ToS update

The arbitration clause won't hold for any visitors from Europe. http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-77-right-to-lodge-a-complaint-with-a-supervisory-authority-GDPR.htm Without prejudice to any other administrative or judicial remedy, every data subject shall have the right to lodge...

Marco

hmmm

Interesting

Thanks!

terdon

@SPArcheon is it valid anywhere at all outside the US? I mean, does any legal system in a relatively developed country allow a company to say "if you use this, you no longer have the right to resort to the legal system if we screw you over"? I would guess, without knowing, that this is some sort of weird US thing.

Marco

4:23 PM

@SPArcheon I thought you were talking about this passage that talks about the European Union:

stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public

SPArcheon

@terdon probably not, but I have stopped making guess about laws after that idiocy some time ago...

in The Bridge on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, Apr 3 at 10:37, by SPArcheon

And for the daily "I can't believe this is not illegal" corner, apparently Nexon - the company behind Maple Story - holds multiple patents for rigging gacha rates in a game.

Yes, apparently in (Korea? I think) you can apply to a government office to patent a way to perform something that is illegal.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

4:39 PM

@terdon probably here in Israel.

Our law system is total crap. lol

@SPArcheon North Korea, I assume?

poof

terdon

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda And well on its way to become far worse, before even worse stuff started to happen, yeah.

Marco

Nice:

42

A: Understanding Suspension Reasons

Last night Rich B/Geoffrey Chetwood got suspended for a whole year. Extreme, don't you think? While some will surely not miss him, due to his confrontational nature, I'm a bit puzzled, but mostly worried about what happened. Looking over his recent activity, I see no reason for such a suspension...

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@terdon actually those who want to change do have some valid points, and might even have some fair goals, but the way they do it, is the problem. But overall, what we lack is decent set of laws, and writing decent laws is the least priority of any government we ever had.

e.g. privacy laws? Pretty sure they just don't exist here.

(not in any decent and worthy way at least.)

terdon

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda I will bow to your superior knowledge. I've just glanced at a few newspaper articles, but they did seem to say (and some were Israeli) that the government was trying to remove itself from judicial oversight and that seems terrifying.

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

!!/coffee Shadow to make things at least a bit better

SmokeDetector

4:49 PM

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard brews a cup of latte for @Shadow

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

lol

Marco

I want a coffee too

Please

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda So you like dictatorship?

SPArcheon

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda south.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@terdon yeah it became the hill to die on for the left winged parties that lost the elections, and they used it to gain power, which was a success.

I do believe some of those who justify the reform, and even they do resist the way it's being done.

Kind of like treating a wound in the hand by removing the hand.

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard late latte is also fine! Thanks! :D

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

!!/coffee Marco

SmokeDetector

5:02 PM

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard brews a cup of cappuccino for @Marco

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@Marco here ya go. ;)

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@SPArcheon you missed the arrow of the correct message but close enough, lol. Oh, South Korea... meh, thought they're better.

Marco

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard not received

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@Marco Polo?

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco in websites? Sure.

@Marco well give your home address and we'll send you real coffee.

:-D

Marco

5:05 PM

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard Sorry, I was ignoring SmokeDetector, now that I'm not ignoring it, I got it. :D

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda What the hell

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@Marco Polo no worries, happens to the best of us... lol

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda I doubt it

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

That reminds me, my sister has a son living in the USA for few years already. Every year in his birthday she orders him big package of chocolate online. :)

Marco

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard lol

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@Marco Polo ;)

Marco

5:06 PM

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda nice

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

I like messing up with my username.

Time to have some fun with Unicode, eh?

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco site owners should decide how the website is managed and in case of a website with dedicated users (be it forum, social site, Q&A, etc.), have the last say. Otherwise, chaos is likely to happen. When it comes to countries, well, it's different.

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda But what you are saying is a utopia, the sites should follow the laws where they are based.

The internet is not a Wild West

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco which bring us again to what terdon tried to explain and failed, that country laws do not apply in websites, unless they are specific to websites.

@Marco but it is.

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda This is completely utopian and insane, it's not true, the internet is not a lawless land

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda no, isn't

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

5:10 PM

@Marco and each site has the responsibility to keep its own laws, true.

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda completely wrong

false

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

Well that's what you believe and it's fine - I can't change your mind, and it's fine as well.

But that does not make it the truth. :)

If I'll find a way to bring better arguments, I will try - but I doubt it.

Marco

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda well, I say the same about you, prove me that you are right if you want

NotTheDr01ds

I think what we're going back to (at the core issue) is the topic of how "plagiarism" (specifically AI-plagiarism) is defined and enforced here. And since there are no (or very few) laws in any country around plagiarism, it's a non-issue as far as this topic is concerned.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@NotTheDr01ds think we moved around a bit and now talking in general, about site rules.

e.g. when site is allowed to suspend users, etc.

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

5:13 PM

@Sha ping!

NotTheDr01ds

Fair enough - I'm also not aware of any laws, constitutions, etc. in any country which guarantee a right to continue accessing a website when you've violated that website's terms of service, unless those terms of service are against the law in the first place.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@NotTheDr01ds exactly.

NotTheDr01ds

So unless someone has been suspended for something that is a guaranteed right, also a non-issue.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard ding

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda trap! Now read the pings in Den.

:P

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

5:14 PM

:(

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

gives @Sha a big banana

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

You mean Dens!

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard suspicious

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

lol

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

casting a spell to make banana smaller

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda seeing through the banana

NotTheDr01ds

5:15 PM

Yes! We have no bananas!

In other news, is now over 100 years old - I had no idea ...

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

lol

pretends to understand everything

Marco

suspends Stack Exchange for 9999999999999999999999999999999999999 years

Note: it's a joke

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

facepalm

@Marco somehow I didn't laugh... but no worries lol

Marco

:(

bad joke

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

puns are generally funny ;)

Marco

5:21 PM

say one

@NotTheDr01ds interesting

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

> I don’t trust stairs because they’re always up to something.

Long response because you didn't ping me. ;)

Marco

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard hahaha

Good

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

;)

Marco

Let's propose a joke's SE website at Area 51: joke.stackexchange.com

And aiso.stackexchange.com, where responsible AI answers are permitted.

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@NotTheDr01ds is? Igor Stravinsky? He is indeed over 100 but alas, not alive anymore. :D

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard that's a joke, not a pun. Pun is best served subtle. ;)

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

5:34 PM

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda boo

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco actually...

3

A: Is there a Stack Exchange site for asking joke questions?

There was one such actual proposal in the past, as far as I can tell, it was called Apocalyptic Defense. The proposal itself was closed and deleted despite people here appealing the decision. If you want to take a look, there's web archive of it. In case it's taken down, here's also a screenshot....

Marco

wow hahahaha

Nice

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

Yeah lots of hidden gems in MSE.

Marco

yeah

NotTheDr01ds

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda The song, apparently.

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

5:39 PM

> hidden games :D

Marco

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard where?

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@Marco I mean, I first read it as "hidden games".

Marco

ah

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard and that can be considered a nice pun. I think. :D

@NotTheDr01ds ah!

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

hehe

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

5:41 PM

Yes! We Have No Bananas

"Yes! We Have No Bananas" is an American novelty song by Frank Silver and Irving Cohn published March 23, 1923. It became a major hit in 1923 (placing No. 1 for five weeks) when it was recorded by Billy Jones, Billy Murray, Arthur Hall, Irving Kaufman, and others. It was recorded later by Benny Goodman and His Orchestra, Spike Jones & His City Slickers, Kidsongs, and many more. The song became a best-selling sheet music in American history. It inspired a follow-up song, "I've Got the Yes! We Have No Bananas Blues", recorded by Billy Jones and Sam Lanin (with vocals by Irving Kaufman and others...

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda No! We Have Yes Bananas

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard go ahead and write such a song, publish it, and become famous! :D

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

lol I wish!

@Sha did you check pings in our Den?

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard ah, missed one of yours. feeling like a Bad Wizard

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

turns @Sha into a Good Wizard

Marco

5:50 PM

accuses @ShadowWizardLoveZelda and @PetəíŕdTheSpringWizard to both send messages in all SE chats and have all your answers generated by AI and report it to moderation and Stack Exchange, and does not give they the right to defend themselves

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

restoring from backup

FENIX

@Marco Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.

Marco

chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/9842809#9842809: continuing: and suspend the two for 999999999999999999999999999999999999999 years

@Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard refuses the joke because it is a serious matter at the time

Shadow Wizard Love Zelda

@Marco ah so you want more pings? OK!

:-D

Petəíŕd The Spring Wizard

@Marco you have a mania of big numbers...