Tavern on the Meta

Catija

00:00

I don't remember the exact rules but if a user has 1 rep and no posts (they're all self deleted), I think that they can have their account deleted immediately.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Vogel612'sShadow I believe it went on since humans exist.

Vogel612's Shadow

@πάνταῥεῖ I don't remember that being stated anywhere in the SO Inc. commentary..

user315433

@Catija <=1 posts and 0 votes. Rep does not matter.

Catija

Ah, there you go. :)

Andras Deak

<=1 posts and 0 votes implies <=3 rep

oops, I can almost count

user315433

00:01

@AndrasDeak Can get any number of rep points from one post.

Andras Deak

no, that accept might be right after all. Oh, let's call it <=20 to be safe

Vogel612's Shadow

@AndrasDeak nope.

Catija

Supposedly that single post could have dozens of votes on it... "votes" means "hasn't cast any votes" not "hasn't received any votes".

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Vogel612'sShadow There are sometimes subtle things inbetween the lines.

user315433

0 votes cast, not received.

Andras Deak

00:02

@Catija Oooooooh!

Vogel612's Shadow

It implies <= 1001 rep

Andras Deak

ignore me then :D

Journeyman Geek

@Catija eh. Could screenshot or just selectively quote :(

Jon Ericson

@AndrasDeak Did you see the final comment?

> I thankfully found a few people who were nice enough to help me out. I'm deleting this thread.

Catija

Though, it's more likely for users under 15 rep to meet those requirements, since they're prohibited from actually voting.

Andras Deak

00:03

@JonEricson yeah, I did. Did you see OP's deleted rage comments?

Vogel612's Shadow

@AndrasDeak approved edits give +2 rep, up to a maximum of 1k rep :)

Andras Deak

but anyway, in the meantime Catija educated me that the fact that OP got deleted doesn't mean anything

Vogel612's Shadow

weird edge-case though.

Andras Deak

@Vogel612'sShadow hehe, right

Catija

Though, I guess accepts count as votes and users of any rep level who have asked a question can do that.

Time to go home! Toodles, y'all.

Andras Deak

00:04

bye

πάντα ῥεῖ

N8

Jon Ericson

@AndrasDeak Yeah. If this does end up on twitter or whatever, I don't think they have a strong case. ;-)

Andras Deak

OK :) I just have a really bad taste in my mouth

thanks for the feedback

Jon Ericson

Yeah. As long as it's pinned to the community bulletin, I'm afraid the blog title will prime people to look for rudeness. :-(

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JonEricson They'll find all kind they think it is :-/

@JonEricson I've been seriously thinking about a feature request to let the 1st comment given for a post should cost -2 reputation. That'll reduce a lot of unnecessary snark quite quickly.

A dupe probably.

Andras Deak

00:13

inb4 "why are posts closed with no comments"

bjb568

2

πάντα ῥεῖ

@AndrasDeak No post gets closed "without a comment", the comment is implicit.

user5389107

@JonEricson None of the complainers on twitter ever did

That article chain about SO was laughably transparent in its attempt to troll

Andras Deak

@πάνταῥεῖ what do you mean?

Jon Ericson

@bjb568 Congratulations!

bjb568

00:16

:3

πάντα ῥεῖ

There's a reason given if a post is put on hold or closed

Andras Deak

Oh, sure. But it's general courtesy to try and help askers fix their questions before it gets closed. I could understand if someone finds SO "rude and traumatizing" when out of the blue their question gets closed as no MCVE just because they didn't add the error message nor the line where it happens

I guarantee if comments start to cost rep, helpful comments will be even more scarce than snarky ones

after all grumps are usually more invested in the matter than altruist volunteers

πάντα ῥεῖ

@AndrasDeak It's the best way to give an unbiased feedback, based on consensus of mostly more than a single person.

Andras Deak

surely you're aware that one of the largest alleged crimes of the site is that it's already so inhuman and artificial

Jon Ericson

I do kinda like the idea of limiting kibitzing comments on questions. Certainly I'd rather people answer or ignore questions more often than comment on them.

πάντα ῥεῖ

00:23

One problem is though, that the same 5 people may repeatedly display up in similar fields of problems (i.e. language tags), and be considered a pack

Andras Deak

if someone wants to feel oppressed by moderation as it works on SO, they will

it's either that or giving up moderation (hence the responses to the blog post)

πάντα ῥεῖ

Yup

And let's be honest: There's none of us here, who never posted a snarky comment at some point of time.

Jon Ericson

@AndrasDeak Eh? That's a weird way to look at it.

Andras Deak

That seems to be how the blog post came across and looking at the meta fallout many people had the same interpretation

πάντα ῥεῖ

@AndrasDeak My Yup has to be precised.

Andras Deak

00:28

put everything and more has already been said in the "conflating noobs with minorities" meta, probably

@πάνταῥεῖ yeah I got that

Jon Ericson

@AndrasDeak Well, if people want to misunderstand the post, they will, I suppose. ;-)

Andras Deak

@JonEricson I honestly think there's no way to do quality-control on SO without someone being able to find offense in it.

user315433

@JonEricson -1 rep for question comments?

Andras Deak

well, we could; if there were literally no snarky people or prejudiced ones on SO

but that isn't going to happen

if we restrict comments, the helpful ones will go away and people will rightfully complain that their posts get shot down without even trying to help them fix them

Jon Ericson

@AndrasDeak That's true. We're sorta hoping that at least people will be offended for the right reasons.

user315433

00:30

@AndrasDeak Nobody promised any help to them; they have nothing to complain about.

Andras Deak

Why should anyone bother trying to figure out OP's indentation if it costs them to help fix it?

@bro have you read the criticisms against SO? People demand to be helped, because apparently this site is all about helping people

Jon Ericson

@bro Now we're talking.

user315433

I see nothing wrong with ignoring that subset of criticism.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@bro -2 for 1st comment on any post.

Vogel612's Shadow

@bro refund when the comment is deleted as no longer needed, no refund if deleted as rude

not sure about self-deletions

Andras Deak

00:32

@bro Haha, good luck. The vast majority of whiny askers who feel that SO is rude (and are probably partly the subject of Jay's blog post) are ones that come here instead of reading a tutorial and then are hurt when their question is closed as off-topic or too broad

Vogel612's Shadow

not talking about flags, but about the actual reason for deletion.

πάντα ῥεῖ

-1 for close votes?

Andras Deak

-10 for answer downvotes?

πάντα ῥεῖ

Poor @Jon

Vogel612's Shadow

~desperately holds in the snark

πάντα ῥεῖ

00:35

Gasp

Jon Ericson

@πάνταῥεῖ I'd like to see quicker closes (and easier reopens if the asker fixes the problem).

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JonEricson Now we're talking (cc: @rene)

user5389107

@JonEricson You think having your question closed and heavily downvoted without any commentary quicker will be more welcoming then some snarky comments?

Sonic Wizard

delv-pls 2k+ meta.stackexchange.com/review/low-quality-posts/57617

Andras Deak

@user5389107 sorry, we forgot -10 for downvoting a question :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

00:36

@user5389107 The bias thing!

Sonic Wizard

There are also two pending tag wiki edits

Andras Deak

making quality control cost rep is a good way to make sure that everything questionable gets closed and deleted

user5389107

@AndrasDeak Might be a positive influence after all then

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 We probably need to figure out how to measure that rather than just winging it.

Andras Deak

@user5389107 "questionable" as in "what is your exact error message?"

user315433

00:37

@user5389107 If it's closed and downvoted then it will hopefully be deleted. Which means there is nothing for anonymous visitors (the majority) to find. While snarky comments remain forever.

user5389107

@AndrasDeak Yah. The focus will shift from "Try to get your question into shape and reopened" to "Do it right the first time or we'll speed you to a post ban"

Andras Deak

I'm confused. You seem to be talking about being more friendly and deleting all the closed questions at the same time. I find this...amusingly paradox

user5389107

It's not more friendly then right now

bjb568

@JonEricson Decrease CVs/reopenVs needed to 3 then.

user5389107

But if we're putting emphasis on reducing snark in comments, that's the outcome

Andras Deak

00:39

ah

user5389107

I've always thought that getting snarked at is the price you pay for asking a low effort garbage question

πάντα ῥεῖ

And not to forget that feeling of a missed call of duty: "I could have followed that nice invitation, but now I'm gonna have to argue with you moron." Frequent source of all kind of snarkiness.

Andras Deak

@user5389107 That would be true but we have quite a few butts who will snark anyone, or even worse, snark minorities more. The issue is that I don't think we should mess with moderation to fix this.

user315433

@AndrasDeak Deleting closed questions makes the site more friendly, yes.

Jon Ericson

@bjb568 That's on the table. It's one of the easiest things we can do. The key is getting people in the habit of actually voting to reopen:

36

Q: The number of votes required to close and reopen questions is temporarily reduced . . . for science!

This experiment is over. I will be adding an answer to show the results and suggest a plan for going forward. For the next 30 days, closing a question will require just 3 votes. Also 3 votes will be sufficient to reopen a closed question. In essence, each close and reopen vote has 5/3rds the n...

user315433

00:40

The perception of its unfriendliness is amplified by 3rd party reading comments directed at the OP.

user5389107

@AndrasDeak Have you ever tried asking in the c ?

Andras Deak

@bro And here I thought that was very rude to the askers, robbing them from their voice and oppressing them completely

(can't tell if you're being serious)

user315433

I am serious.

Andras Deak

@user5389107 ha, no. But I've seen some of the heavy-weight grumps there

user5389107

@JonEricson The issue with that is the original closers will rarely if ever take another look at derivative homework garbage #112838 they've spent all of 3 seconds closing several hours ago

πάντα ῥεῖ

00:41

@user5389107 Try c++, he he ...

Andras Deak

@bro then I strongly disagree with you

user5389107

@πάνταῥεῖ hard mode: tag your question c and c++

Sonic Wizard

@JonEricson Can I see an example question that was closed with 3 votes?

user315433

People who never posted on SO think it's hostile, because they read comments that were not directed at them.

Sonic Wizard

@bro They are notified of them.

πάντα ῥεῖ

00:42

@user5389107 That's usually quickly sorted out with tag edits.

Andras Deak

If I see someone complaining of toxic oppression after a downvoted and closed post, I shrug. If the same post is promptly deleted, now that gives a bad message

user5389107

@πάνταῥεῖ Yes but you bet you'll get an entire comment thread about how you should quit trying if you're this horrible (exaggerating for comedic effect, but not much)

Andras Deak

I can't see how routinely deleting closed questions would help askers feel more welcome. I suspect the exact opposite.

Jon Ericson

@user5389107 waffles

user315433

@AndrasDeak Promptly as within 30 minutes? Yes. In 9 days, after no edits from OP? Different story.

user5389107

00:43

@JonEricson I was gonna say a ping option for the closers if a closed post is edited might work

Andras Deak

Who is going to stick around for 9 days if comments cost rep?

user5389107

Until I realized most of these OPs edit in stuff like "Why close?!?!!!1112"

Andras Deak

@user5389107 so many meta feature-requests in limbo...

Sonic Wizard

Remember the days when "not a real question" and "off topic" (not a typo) close reasons carried an automatic Community downvote?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@user5389107 That wasn't the reason for my suspension, it was the snarkiness at least.

@SonicWizard I'm mostly carrying one along my close votes/flags. Off-topic questions are rarely found "useful", no?

Jon Ericson

00:46

@user5389107 Some edits put the question in the reopen queue.

user5389107

The reopen queue is a meme at this point

πάντα ῥεῖ

@user5389107 Not for real pearls.

Jon Ericson

@SonicWizard Probably. There were a lot of them closed during the experiment. Surely some of them have not been deleted. ;-)

Sonic Wizard

@JonEricson Can you link me to one?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@AndrasDeak Those who write serious answers.

Andras Deak

00:50

Answers?! I'm losing this thread completely :D

πάντα ῥεῖ

Well, there are answers, or seeing popcorn pop :D

Andras Deak

are you saying that you'd be camping out for 9 days on a closed question to see if it becomes an answerable gem? (and delvote otherwise)

πάντα ῥεῖ

Depends on what kinda entertainment you want to see from the whole game :3

Andras Deak

you need a hobby!

πάντα ῥεῖ

I've got some. What are yours?

Andras Deak

00:52

programming :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

One meeting point.

But it's also my profession, so that doesn't count :3

Andras Deak

arguing with strangers about things that are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things: another one

Journeyman Geek

Hi! I sit around the internet for fun. ;p

(That can't be my profession yet but one can dream)

Sometimes I accidentally try to make it a better place. I'm not sure that actually works though

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek Well, there's slackware ;-)

@Journey I hope Ash is well. He should live long and prosper!

Journeyman Geek

Ash is napping after long walkies.

I think the world is a wonderful place for him

Also made a new friend ;p

πάντα ῥεῖ

01:02

Sounds cool

Journeyman Geek

Someone rescued a spanish greyhound (apparently they breed them en mass and kill them when they get too old to hunt)

she's apparently skittish around men cause of abuse, but I apparently kinda have mild disney princess syndrome around dogs ;p

so this one was all "oh HI HUMAN! I FRIENDLY DOG! PETZ PLZ!"

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek Oh, no. Goofy, go away ..

Journeyman Geek

hah

Not as bad as my dad

I think he's been bitten twice

And heh. There's a bit of a story about the second time I can't quite tell yet ;)

user202362

@hey almost recovered, but annoying thing is that coughing mostly happens at night, so still affects sleep a little bit

πάντα ῥεῖ

Codeine is fine at all.

If not used frequently ...

user315433

01:08

There are two kinds of websites: those that people complain about, and those that nobody uses. SO is trying to leave the first category.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@bro I seriously have to complain about your avatar. That's something obviously unfriendly!

Jon Ericson

Nah. We just want to change what people complain about.

user202362

@πάνταῥεῖ subscription drug since recently

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Jon I already told you that'll be a hard job. Remember?

user202362

pholcodine did nothing

user315433

01:11

The avatar is a reminder for me to always do the right thing.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@TelKitty I guessed so ...

Jon Ericson

@πάνταῥεῖ Certainly. :-)

πάντα ῥεῖ

:)

Andras Deak

welp, good night

Jon Ericson

Sweet dreams.

Andras Deak

01:13

thanks, you too (in n hours ;)

πάντα ῥεῖ

Using the site mechanics actually lets you look like being a bot. We might need more granularity at consensus.

Or better explanations at the CV banners.

@Andras N8

yagmoth555

just my 0,02c, if people dont complain about welcomeness, they would for other reasons imo. on another platform i'am on, the flood of newbie is there too, not only a SO problem, and people complain about the content quality because they let them be.

πάντα ῥεῖ

The point is to let the complaints went in vain (aka poofed out) for clear and concise reasons (that everyone would understand without feeling discriminated in a way)

@yagmoth555 "and people complain about the content quality because they let them be" Stack Exchange already provides low barrier mechanisms to help fixing that. You just need to participate actively, and within the rules.

Complaint: "Who are you to make the rules." Follows up.

yagmoth555

@πάνταῥεῖ badly wrote my point :) I mean that on the other platform iam on, not SE, they complain for quality because they try to be too much welcome

πάντα ῥεῖ

01:30

@yagmoth555 I certainly know what you're talking about. I receive their weekly newsletters and keep these for good laughs ;-)

yagmoth555

hehehe

Journeyman Geek

@πάνταῥεῖ ironically - both SE and twitter are the worst places to have that arguement

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek I've even got a twitter account. Rarely interested about the so called global trendsetters. I prefer to gather my own data and facts.

Journeyman Geek

01:48

I actually mostly use it to keep in touch with a small group of people and news

I follow like...

20 people?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JonEricson What do you think about my FR idea? Is there a dupe already? Comments like "Do your homework please (implicit eyerolling)." aren't helpful, and given away like candy. While a consciously written comment like "Welcome to <site xy>. Your question seems to address a common problem. Did you already have a look at <link to the documentation (not that one ;) )>. If you have problems to understand it, please care to point these out in your question" could be well worth it.

Journeyman Geek

@πάνταῥεῖ why not write that?

like, manually? ;p

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek I believe I follow even less. Some artists (comic and satire), and some rare expert people ins programming.

Journeyman Geek

hmm

34 followed 28 followers

yagmoth555

@πάνταῥεῖ good point, it would be nice to be about the let community user write that after some close vote, ppl will even take it less personnal, and will take less time to write it actually

πάντα ῥεῖ

01:51

@JourneymanGeek I still have some doubts. The discussion escalated into so many directions.

Journeyman Geek

and a good chunk of them are SE people, or folks I've met in meatspace

with a handful of companies

@πάνταῥεῖ funny thing is I literally start all the comments where someone is... lost with "welcome to"

and use the victorian we a lot

On the other hand, if its not a show me the codez question - how does that comment benefit the whole more than an answer?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek Yeah. That 9-tailed cat :P

Journeyman Geek

Whenever I see a "documentation/manual reading as a service" answer - I often try to add a little to the post

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek That kind of consciously written comments isn't meant for "Gimme teh codez plz!" questions, and would cost you 2 pts rep.

Journeyman Geek

shrug

If it makes things better ... wait

how would it cost me rep?

yagmoth555

01:56

@JourneymanGeek the problem I see is after X time you write it, sometime you can become more direct, having something to help moderate such could be nice

Journeyman Geek

and why does it matter?

I get lots of -2s all the time ;p

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek That was my proposal.

@JourneymanGeek Because you're writing answers ;-)

Journeyman Geek

preferencially yes!

πάντα ῥεῖ

That was the point of my thinking/considerations

Journeyman Geek

ah

I'd just the option to comment suspend people

πάντα ῥεῖ

01:59

Instead of writing a snarky comment, encourage to write well consciously written and concise answers, that have a chance to receive upvotes instead of that initial cost.

Journeyman Geek

ah

SmokeDetector

02:15

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: How to decode input data from a transaction? by WTD on ethereum.SE

user315433

Comments are kind of a broken window in that people are trained to see the space directly under each question as a place for them to discuss the question

user315433

What if: all comments under questions that are not upvoted, don't have code, and don't have links (links to help center don't count)... were summarily deleted.

user315433

Would anything of value be lost?

user315433

Perhaps better to ignore the votes under some threshold

yagmoth555

on sf yes, as often the question lack diagnostic, and we need to do it by commenting, to help the op isolate the trouble

Journeyman Geek

02:22

well, we sometimes need comments to help questions get better

and we summarily delete them and get complaints

user315433

Maybe move to chat, all of them. Imagine: no comments under questions anywhere, just a link to archive in chat

user315433

My point is more about comments from last week. You helped them get better, now what are those comments for?

yagmoth555

the diagnostic step, it guide other user with same problem

why not just a tolerance zero for snarky comment, lets punish them, not all

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: How do i get rid of uneccessary System Memory? by Buttnigger on android.SE

hichris123

@SmokeDetector naa-

Journeyman Geek

02:35

@yagmoth555 cause the only choice we have is a suspension and its hard when users contribute in other ways.

user202362

I kept on saying subscription when I meant prescription drugs, wtf ~_~

Catija

@hichris123 Yeah... that's rude...

hichris123

When someone decides to express their anger about a company instead of a particular person, that's only NAA to me.

Catija

Having a username including the word "nigger" and repeatedly saying "fuck"... is r/a.

Journeyman Geek

its trolling and probably needs a mod to look at it

hichris123

02:40

Yeah, the username part is problematic. But I've seen legitimate users do stuff like that before (a user posts ranting about a company and then asks a real question a couple days later), so I avoid red-flagging them.

Shog9

and nothing of value was lost

hey

@TelKitty I was confused by that, but I thought "maybe drug subscription is a thing now"...

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Jon

Here we go:

0

Q: Apply a reputation loss for posting the 1st comment at any post

There's a lot of complaint recently, about the culture of Stack Exchange sites, and how newcomers feel welcome, or just feel being minorized when asking questions. One source of these complaints are snarky and unnecessary comments placed on posts (no matter which quality they actually are): ...

discussion feature-request reputation comments

user315433

Our main problem is unclear definition of value

hey

4 hours ago, by πάντα ῥεῖ

Maybe Hey guys isn't the best start on this. :3

I think that's the objective of these usernames: @hey @bro

πάντα ῥεῖ

02:43

@hey <==

Catija

@πάνταῥεῖ :/ That seems like a somewhat arbitrary solution. Why would we make it less likely that someone would actually be helpful? Also, that seems to whitelist every other comment...

user315433

No reference to casting the first stone?

hichris123

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/885097/…

hey

or implicit casting...

πάντα ῥεῖ

Sometimes people need to be driven to use their brains ans social skills. You just have to charge them some cost, and they'll probably react more conscious, that's the idea.

Catija

02:46

@Shog9 Would y'all ever consider excluding the association bonus from counting towards the Comment Everywhere privilege?

πάντα ῥεῖ

No clue, if that could work out at SE.

yagmoth555

@JourneymanGeek for good standing user punish can be to flag them in a chat first to check why, I remember some slack discussion directed to some user about some snarky comment, but you are right as maybe easier with a comment suspension like you told

Catija

One of the bigger problems that some are talking about is the pile-on, not necessarily the first comment... why not just charge for all comments?

Shog9

@Catija If I was going in for that kind of complexity, I'd definitely try really hard to make rate limiting work first.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@hey What do you think is the objective of my username?

Shog9

02:47

I feel like... If folks had 1-5 comments a day, they'd use 'em a lot more carefully.

user315433

@Catija Prevent 101 rep users from voting and commenting until 105 rep by Sklivvz on skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com

Catija

HNQ commenters generally only use 1-5 comments.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Shog9 Another good idea of throttling.

Catija

I don't know that I feel like it's necessary (the privilege exclusion) but it'd be at least useful on protected questions, like Monica explains in her MSE FR.

user315433

@πάνταῥεῖ I tend to read that word as "attack or kill (someone) by choking or strangling them"

Catija

02:50

I sort of wonder if a combination of both would be the end solution.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@bro No that wasn't meant like this.

Fell encouraged to use your brain before doing something the intention it is

user315433

Someone's talking to me: ok bro nothing in this matters bro just figure it out bro it's so ez

πάντα ῥεῖ

@bro Plain unnecessary snark, yes. Worth -5.

Catija

It'd be possibly more difficult to set up but I think treating the comment rate limits like the flagging rate limits - start with very few and your available total depends on your history of commenting - would be interesting but really difficult to implement in a way that doesn't unfairly catch users who actually do write primarily useful comments that were later flagged as NLN... it's as if we'd need to swap back up to four flags... "never necessary" and "served its purpose". :D

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Catija Whoever told @Jon that would be an easy job?

Catija

02:54

Where does Jon come into it?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Catija He's gotta deploy something in the end, no?

hey

@Catija will self-deletion prevent increasing the quota?

Catija

@πάνταῥεῖ I think I'm missing a link here. Why Jon?

@hey It shouldn't... the downside is that some (very few) users use self-deletion in a ... abusive way.

Shog9

Thing is, folks tend to be pretty careless when managing what they perceive as an unlimited resource. Seeing a limit on it can make one reluctant to use it at all

Catija

Shog and I bounced some thoughts on that back and forth briefly on Shog's answer to Yvette's question.

Journeyman Geek

02:57

@yagmoth555 done that.

Catija

20

A: Can we implement temporary automatic comment ban on 'x' number of validated rude comment flags?

This suggestion is coming up with increasing frequency in various forms; one of my colleagues expressed amazement this morning that we don't already do this - he'd spent the morning cleaning up after an abusive comment-author, only to find this person had kept right on leaving abusive comments th...

hey

Yeah, because someone can just comments as they like on their own post and self-delete them, unless of course it won't count comment on self-post to increase the quota (just like you can't flag your own comment)

user315433

It would not be hard to count all comments, including deleted ones, toward the quota. They still exist in some database.

Catija

@Shog9 Or seeing a warning on it... I really dislike the "use sparingly" note on annotations.

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