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5:03 PM
People are berated, kicked or otherwise harassed for holding a room's culture to our code of conduct Can someone explain that sentence to me in Dutch or otherwise in some more plain English?
 
Does it mean "you should not hold your room's culture above the CoC"?
 
I hope it means that
 
Sounds about right
 
and/or does it mean "your room's culture is not the constitution, it's not the thing everyone MUST follow."?
 
I rather not have this about right
 
5:06 PM
@rene Isn't even asking such a sacrilege? /sarcasm off
 
Maybe I dare to ping @Bart ...
 
People are berated, kicked, or otherwise harassed by trying to keep a room's culture inline with the Code of Conduct. Might be a better sentence.
 
Maybe put a comment out on Tim's post then
I'm useless when it comes to these kind of grammar/meaning stuff
 
@gunr2171 Yes. Edit the post, or leave a comment to clarify.
 
eh, now that I think about it, the original has more of an "accountability" tone, vs mine which is reactionary.
words, they're hard
 
5:14 PM
When they hit you, they hurt a lot ...
 
Idk what's happening to stack but it feels like the social issues battleground problem that started a couple months ago on ips is infecting the whole network
 
user315433
@rene it means "twitter driven policy making"
 
user315433
With a Generous Helping of Title Case
 
@bro That's quite a real time thing.
 
@bro that is a frightening future ...
 
5:23 PM
twitter really ought to go away. The reductive nature of it has set societal discourse back a lot
who am I kidding people are gonna be reductive and impossible to discuss with anyways
 
a lot use twitter for venting/ranting imo, I just unfollow those users after
 
5:50 PM
This was edited:
-3
A: Were the changes to the time limits supposed to occur retroactively?

SeanJArea51 is not a collaborative process. It is run by Robert Cartaino. It is his toy to do with as he pleases. Everytime autonomous vehicles came close to completion, Robert would appear to shut down questions many of which were very much on topic, (I work in the automotive sector while Robert d...

 
 
1 hour later…
user315433
7:10 PM
> Yes, and... 1: New users don't know this, and 2: By that time the Formatting Nazi has already done the unwelcoming damage. But I did ask about down voting edits, and I will be more vigilant about addressing the issue on my own posts from now on. -- Pragmatic Praxis at 11:20 AM - 30 Apr 2018
 
user315433
More inclusive rhetorics from Twitter.
 
the formatting damage is what ?
 
7:25 PM
@yagmoth555 editing posts is being a jerk
Have you edited a post?
There should be jail time for editors
They're so NOT inclusive
 
user315433
> Sorry to say but this things literally disgusting and we decrease popularity of stackoverflow meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366931/…
 
How dare they impose their arbitrary will on poor, new users?
Aaaand I'm done. Hey @bwDraco
 
o/
 
user359686
\o
 
^o
That's bro hi
 
7:33 PM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I edit a bit, but as I'am not native english so for me ppl tend to edit my post and I like that, and I think it's their the power of the community
 
@yagmoth555 I was being sarcastic. Editors are awesome
I'm not a native speaker of English either
 
edits "tanks in advantage" in all @M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ's posts
 
oh, sorry! hehe
 
user315433
> We were told about, and found: Blatant ageism meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366924
 
user315433
Sure, there's blatant ageism in the ToS about users under 13. Wasn't hard to find.
 
user315433
7:38 PM
What could be worse than outright banning a demographic group from the site?
 
@rene you nazi formatting meanie evil poisonous flower!
 
I wonder if there's a correlation between stress and keeping up with PC standards as a CM
Because I'll be honest, it looks exhausting.
 
user315433
Yeah, one has to prioritize. By now the upper management is more in touch with the feminist agenda than with the sites.
 
Well, I'd be careful about classifying it like that
 
@bro is that inline with the code of conduct?
 
7:46 PM
@bro ageism is towards old people though. When people refer to ageism it usually means that.
 
@SterlingArcher No kidding
 
user315433
@BenjaminGruenbaum Boltclock's example is of the opposite nature.
 
user315433
@rene I'm not sure that anything that doesn't emanate from the liberal bubble of SE HQ is in line anymore.
 
lol
 
@bro BoltClock wasn't trusted by some due to his young age at a point, which is discrimination but not ageism.
 
7:48 PM
@bro That's mandatory because of U.S. law
 
user315433
Well he posted that as an example of ageism under the linked answer, so I'm not the only one to interpret ageism both ways
 
On ageism: you'll all get old, trust me ....
 
By the way, if you think SO is ageist: One of their moderators (Ry, formerly Ryan, formerly minitech) was just 15 years old when he became an SO mod.
 
user315433
@SonicWizard No it is not. The law says you have to do some things if you serve users under 13. It was SE's decision to ban users under 13 because they don't want to bother.
 
7:50 PM
@SonicWizard BoltClock was moderator as teenager too - but individual examples don't dictate trends.
 
@bro Most sites simply choose not to follow that guidelines because it would cost a lot of money to accept consent from parents.
 
user315433
@SonicWizard As we well know, the evidence of one person's success does not mean the absence of barriers to said success.
 
@SonicWizard most sites don't accept user content
Or hand moderate it if it's comments
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Email addresses are technically considered part of the "personal information" that sites are forbidden from collecting.
 
@rene considering how my lower back feels right now? yeah. I feel you.
 
7:53 PM
@SmokeDetector tpu-
 
@SonicWizard there is nothing that prohibits sites collecting email addresses or identifiable information (except you have to take reasonable security measures and if the data is breached you are exposed to legal issues). There are laws protecting minors under 13 online to protect them from predators.
 
user315433
Noun: ageism (countable and uncountable, plural ageisms)
  1. The treating of a person or people differently from others based on assumptions or stereotypes relating to their age.
 
Are you referring to the fact that sites can't collect your email address without your consent or that you have a "right to be forgotten" and ask a site to remove all your personally identifiable information?
@bro read the wikipedia article it elaborates on it.
 
And in case you weren't aware, SE used to suspend users who were under 13 until they turned 13. They stopped when their legal team advised them to do so.
 
user315433
As it says: mostly about old people, sometimes young.
 
7:59 PM
@SonicWizard which makes sense
 
55
Q: We're More Aggressively Enforcing Self-Moderation In Chat

Tim PostWhile the timing of this post coincides with us expressing some serious concerns around how we're not doing a good job of helping and guiding Stack Overflow to remain a welcoming place for everyone, this is something that's been weighing heavily on our minds for quite some time, and applicable to...

Soooo, the thing that changed is when closing a troublesome room, there's is something to link to?
Or I missed stuff?
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ nope. No link will be posted, no excuses can be made, and the decision will be final. That's what changed.
Until now, people kept asking to reconsider and to unfreeze such rooms.
 
So this won't happen anymore. I mean they will be able to ask and plead, but from what I understand that Post means they won't get any response and there's no hope to undo the decision.
 
So there's nothing for me to change, right? I can still be mean to @Mith and @Journeyman
 
8:11 PM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ only here because they'll never close the Tavern. ;)
 
Aw yiss
 
I mean, look at the alternative... Den...
:P
 
@ShadowWizard wait, this one is the main room for meta.SE?
No way
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ no, room #1 is. Good luck getting access to it. ;)
 
@ShadowWizard now I wonder what the previous 88 rooms were/are
 
8:26 PM
failed attempts
 
@ShadowWizard at being a tavern?
 
each Shog tried 11 times then perished, to be replaced with a new Shog
 
Or at being on the meta?
@ShadowWizard That's so dark
 
So the 9th Shog was finally able to create this glorious Tavern, and so he survived. :P
rofl
 
Wait that came out wrong
 
8:28 PM
Now I'm reminded of the baby turtles that get eaten unless they make it to the sea after they've just hatched
 
oh hey it was good! :(
@SterlingArcher why?
 
@bro More people feeling unwelcome? :p
 
I don't wanna get blasted on twitter :P
(joking)
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ exactly. Anyone said Meta is harsh place? They're correct. :D
 
@SterlingArcher I didn't see it 😡
 
8:29 PM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ something involving comparing Jeff to God.
 
and you never will :O
 
now he does! :D
 
Haha
Now, there's no limit to what I can do with this information
 
Blast @Sterling on Twitter?
 
8:30 PM
I'm so excited to see the Avengers movie in an hour <3
 
@SterlingArcher buh... I'll see it only next week...
 
@SterlingArcher whoa nice. Haven't even seen Black Panther yet :/
 
3D? @Sterling
 
Oh crap I haven't seen Black Panther yet either
 
I'll see it in five months
 
8:31 PM
@ShadowWizard yes! Nobody will go with me though, my brother is lame
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ you even have those movies in your cinema? Or you mean you download them and watch at home?
 
@ShadowWizard the latter
 
I was going to see it opening night but I drove down to the beach instead
 
@SterlingArcher too bad... you'll never know what happens.... :D
 
Our cinemas suck
 
8:32 PM
Haha first chance I get I'll watch BP
 
@SterlingArcher hehe, I'm going with my sister. :)
 
@SterlingArcher IIRC it didn't have much to do with the storyline
 
I'm sure it's still in an older theater around here somewhere
 
So you'd be safe
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ that's good to know
Oh oh oh did you guys see the new Venom trailer?
I <3 Tom Hardy
 
8:33 PM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ it explains what the Wakanda are.. and they do take part in the new movie, so...
 
@ShadowWizard Shrug
@SterlingArcher He's so cool
 
Warrior was probably one of the best fighting movies I've ever seen in my ever life
Also Taboo was a solid TV show, but I think it was cancelled?
 
@SterlingArcher didn't watch it
 
> On March 8, 2017, Taboo was renewed for a second season on FX and BBC One.
YEAS
 
I have lots of TV shows pending
 
8:35 PM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ it was.... exceptional.
Just brilliant
 
@SterlingArcher you can say that again
Is SE slow for anyone else?
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ n... o....
 
not for me, but my brain is slow from the meta hell over the weekend
 
Caaa ... psssshhht . . . Anyone hea . . . . Piiishhh psshht . . . Me
Mayday, mayday . . .
 
fishing @M.A.R.
 
8:39 PM
Okay, gotta sleep now
Ciao
 
Geez, just stop being so active all over the place. :) — Taryn ♦ 3 mins ago
 
 
2 hours later…
11:09 PM
Hey guys. I have a question that I don't want to make too deep... If this isn't the place for it let me know.
How is it that so many people are feeling oppressed due to gender/ethnicity/personal bias when no one on this site has any capability of finding those things out? I have clearly missed something. ANd yes this question is sort of in reference to _the_ post.
I am not a regular user here. So if this isn't appropriate or has been rustling feathers definitely bin please.
In short: How can one be biased against when one is anonymous
 
Well, @yvette addressed that to some point: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309612/…
Maybe Hey guys isn't the best start on this. :3
2
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Lmfao
 
Related: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/2802/… Interesting, the community consensus is "yes"... but "y'all" seems a bit more all-encompassing.
 
Good post, don't really see it directly referencing the anonymity tho. If anyone wants my opinion it's that we should be totally and entirely blind to each other's race, color, ethnicity, gender decisions etc and completely avoid the entire problem haha
 
It was related to @πάνταῥεῖ 's message, not your question.
... unless you were talking to someone else.
@Jhoverit Anyway, there was a MSO question about that exactly... you're conflating two things... someone actually intentionally being rude because of someone's race/gender/etc isn't the same as someone feeling like they're being oppressed for those reasons. The actions of people may not be related to those issues but rude responses may be felt more deeply by people who already have trouble being accepted in the programming community.
 
11:17 PM
Holy meta chat ping sound. Scared me
 
49
Q: Is it possible to know the gender or race of another Stack Overflow user?

geometrikalThe recent blog post brings up some important observations about the Stack Overflow community. In particular, the paragraph about bias suggests to me that it is often possible to know another user's gender or race. For example, We don’t tolerate our female users being called “sweetie” or get...

It's the best. :D (chat ping sound)
 
@Catija I am trying to avoid specifically mentioning the second case. Tho that is what I'm getting towards
 
@Jhoverit Did you go opening the door? Swhooosh ...
 
Good posts, thanks living entities
If you are in fact alive
This is hard I'm going back to "guys"
 
@Catija Do you feel that's worth addressing?
I'm an example of people that feel criticism more deeply because I get shit on all the time because of my sexuality and mental illnesses. Does that mean the fact that I get irrationally sad and angry over comments isn't my problem and that other people need to acquiesce to that?
 
11:22 PM
@user5389107 That's what the blog post is addressing. Users have made it about actual racism/sexism but it's about those users feeling like they're being picked on for their race/gender.
> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.
 
I don't feel like I have a right to expect the community to put up with more from me just because I have issues
 
They experience it... meaning that their feelings about the site is that way.
 
Well yeah but experience in and of itself is meaningless
I experience my coworkers as hostile sometimes, that doesn't mean they are or need to change, that just means that I'm not a good bar for objective measurement
 
@user5389107 Nope. And I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting. The reality is, some comments and answers are rude, regardless of who they're directed at. If we fix that, we will reduce the numbers of people feeling like they're being discriminated against.
 
I mean yeah in general I agree
 
11:24 PM
Nothing SE does will ever make it impossible for someone to feel that way. People feel the way they feel.
 
But this whole discussion feels like people arguing for special consideration for decidedly me-issues
 
What SE wants to do is help reduce the likelihood that those users will feel that way by encouraging users to be more welcoming and less rude in their comments.
This will improve things across the board.
 
That's not the vibe I've been getting at all
If that's the end outcome then fair enough though
 
Shog's explained it a bit in here using the curb cuts analogy and I think it's a good one. Have you seen that?
 
Thats acyually not the vibe I've been getting at all either but it's eye opening.
 
11:26 PM
@Catija Not sure I have, link?
 
In that view they may have actually done a really, realy good job with that blog post
It's hard to wrap your head around it that way tho.
 
I think that part of the complication is that the blog post needed to directly respond to all of the allegations regarding sexism/racism on SO. If it hadn't, the people making the allegations would have been very disappointed and responded by complaining about SO's tone-deaf response and continued ignoring of their concerns.
@user5389107 ... let me find it...
Apr 27 at 18:15, by Shog9
There's also the curb-cut effect: changes that make the system more accessible to one group can benefit everyone. NYC is kinda infamous for their inaccessible subway stations, going so far as to fund cab fare for disabled persons instead of fixing elevators or installing ramps... Of course, that does nothing for a weary shopper with a basket of groceries or an otherwise-fit person with an unexpected twisted ankle. By targeting specific groups they've given up a much larger potential benefit to everyone. — Shog9 ♦ 3 hours ago
 
@Catija tbh if you mean the twitter brigade and april with "the people who made the complaints" then dismissing/not adressing them at all wouldn't really have been a loss
These people aren't going to be satisfied unless we turn SO into a hugbox like askquestions.tech and sacrifice 90% of it's usability in the process
 
Not for you. But I think that it's reasonable for them to do so. And I think that there will be many more blog posts that come up in the near future that address them more directly with data.
 
Linking the implicit bias test did a great job at alienating all the legitimately non-racist users tho lol
 
11:29 PM
I'm really not a fan of that implicit bias test
 
No normal person is..
 
it is so easy to even subconsciously game and several of the creators acknowledge how useless it is in generating anything actionable
 
Anyway, good talk I gotta head out
 
@Jhoverit Guess who I am now after a spring-cleaning of my profile text.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ A german man
Was that the question? lol
 
11:31 PM
Read the details ;-)
 
For all you know, they may have data which may or may not support those feelings of disparate treatment. They may show that there is actually across-the-board equal treatment of all new users with similarly poor-quality questions... but I'm really interested to see what it does show.
 
It just says "TM"
 
Lol forgive me father for I am lost af
 
@user5389107 I think the important thing right now is to remind yourself that there's more to come. This weekend of discussion is but an opening salvo and SO, Inc. isn't ready to put this to bed. They love data... and they're good with it.
 
11:35 PM
I'm hoping more important efforts aren't falling by the wayside in the way of this discussion
 
user315433
@Catija Case in point: Project Reduplication of Deduplication Has Begun! by Tim Post on meta.stackexchange.com
 
user315433
A lot of data acquired, leading to .... ahem.
 
user315433
(That was 2016)
 
It's a matter of triage for them. If they get Teams under control, they may have some manpower to allocate to this while they're in bug-fixing mode for Teams. Network culture issues have long needed some attention, both on the site and in chat and I'm glad to see it get some attention... Based on the response from Tim and Jay, they, at least, seem to think that these are extremely important issues for SE to address...
The difficulty is that right now they're sort of short on cash (or at least that's what November tells me), so they've had to focus on sources of revenue. If they feel like they're getting to a stable place with that (due to new ad revenue sources, site sponsorships, and Teams income, etc), it gives them the chance to address things that aren't about cashflow.
 
hey
 
11:41 PM
o/
 
oh look, a panta :)
 
@Catija I'm not sure that's a great argument. This hasn't happened overnight
 
@Catija Honestly, this is the best thing to happen in many years, if you care about Q&A.
 
what's the etiquette situation with discussing the etiquette situation here?
 
@Catija I'm not convinced yet that teams is even gonna work
 
11:41 PM
@JourneymanGeek I specifically said "have long needed some attention"...
 
Feels like it'll end like docs will
 
@AndrasDeak Stay calm by all means :3
 
user315433
@AndrasDeak No Twitter flame about Tavern transcript yet.
 
Teams will likely survive in some fashion.
 
11:42 PM
@JonEricson If you guys end up making positive changes instead of kowtowing to the people who won't be satisfied until you've turned SO into a activist hugbox
 
I'm as cool as a cucumber
 
jury is still out on which way that'll swing
 
user315433
(feels like we're being neglected)
 
@user5389107 Eh. I'm not sure I'm a fan of how it's been implemented but that's not really anything I have any say in.
For example, I really, really don't like it being baked in to SO.
 
the UI is irritating as hell right now with how integrated it is
 
11:44 PM
@user5389107 Well, I've talked to outsiders about Docs (before the beta) and Teams (after they starting using it). I'm confident the users of Teams knows what it is and I don't think anyone (including many in the company) understood Docs. Still, it could fail miserably. Too soon to know.
 
The reason I came because there was a really weird thing on SO main just now. Question is the usual low-quality unindented mess, OP gets some helpful responses trying to make their question answerable, there's one somewhat snarky comment after a while. Then OP flips out that everyone is so rude, and links the blog post. Later there are some further passive-aggressive mentions of assholes, then the question is closed then self-deleted then the asker is deleted (!).
Any chance people are testing/baiting SO main to troll/aid their own narrative?
 
Yep. It seems to me that it would have been significantly simpler to build on the already-existent beta site structure and just make private sites. This is much more welcoming to groups who'd like teams that have nothing to do with programming at all.
 
@AndrasDeak wouldn't surprise me
 
@AndrasDeak yes
 
@user5389107 Many people are so easily distracted by the circumstances rather than the substance of that post. Here's my current thoughts:
25
A: Does Stack Exchange really want to conflate newbies with women/people of color?

Jon EricsonFor the last 6 years or so, the system has blocked between 40-50% of all attempts to ask questions. The trend has been increasing without much work being done to add blocks. Clearly some people just give up. But even more clearly, some people are persistent enough to get around all the barriers w...

 
11:46 PM
@JonEricson The tone and specifics of the blog post didn't do much to help that
 
But that dosen't preclude polite constructive behavior
 
Any chance we or the mods or the CMs can do anything about it? I'm sick of realizing that I'm starting to treat questions on main like possible audits. And not the "make sure you do it right" part of audits, but the "what if this is an upvoted piece of crap audit" kind
 
@AndrasDeak The only winning move is not to play
It's the same like on IPS
 
Someone being snarky in the comments and someone else reacting extremely negatively is exactly the problem... it doesn't really matter if it was testing the waters... unless the person being snarky was a plant, the snarkiness shouldn't have happened and should have been flagged.
 
> From a non coding perspective, how on Earth can you surmise that mood scale from asking a user a 1-50 question? How do you know a user who's sad will put numbers in the range of 40-49??
 
11:48 PM
people ask questions just asking for it and then make a big show of moaning when the inevitable few idiots happen that always happen, as if that's an additional indictment of the site
 
hardly flaggable
 
@AndrasDeak s/on Earth//
 
Yeah, hence snark. But please don't tell me that you think anything like this should be flagged as rude!
 
raising a comment flag on that I'd expect it to get declined
 
this sounds like the worst kind of censorship, and all in the name of being inclusive
 
11:49 PM
meh. it would be.
on the other hand comments are ephemeral
 
The presumption that women/men/minorities always feel discriminated is preliminary sexist/racist. There's the bias already. Same for some majorities calling themselves noobs.
 
user315433
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Where did anyone say that?
@bro Don't even get me started on that... those are about the worst thing to ever hit medicine.
 
For scale, here's OP's first rude response
> Can you guys pause being elitist condescending rude for one second and actually help me figure out what I'm doing wrong? If there are errors tell me so. I'll rephrase the questions, If i knew what I was doing I wouldn't be asking for help would i?
 
user315433
Well, people read the post and acquired some vocabulary from it. Good for them.
 
11:52 PM
yea that one's probably flaggable.
 
user315433
An idea: eliminate all comments, replacing them by per-post chatrooms.
 
Flag it and move on
 
and that one wasn't even the "thanks for helping, at least not everyone's an asshole" (or something along those lines; that one has been deleted quick)
 
@bro People hate chat.
 
there's hope to steer that conversation back to the actual topic, but that really needs skill
 
11:53 PM
If you think someone is trying to pick a fight, why give them one?
 
user315433
You have 100 comment flags per day... I use 100/100 of mine every day.
 
My issue is that I think more and more users will arrive here with a chip on their shoulders, waiting for that one snarky guy to leave a comment so thay can say "I KNEW IT! I'M BEIGN OPPRESSED"
and this sucks
 
@Catija Me™
 
@Catija maaaaaan
 
Sounds like SO needs an increase in comment flags.
 
11:53 PM
@AndrasDeak don't take the bait, then.
 
user315433
@Catija Good. So they'll only use it when really needed, not when they just feel like throwing in 2c
 
@πάνταῥεῖ As a woman, I can tell you that I do not always feel discriminated against.
 
I have a feeling some folks want chat gone, or think it's unimportant
 
@Vogel612'sShadow I never did, I didn't even leave a comment, but this doesn't stop me from being concerned
 
user315433
@AndrasDeak That sounds like a hypothetical problem. I don't like those.
 
user315433
11:54 PM
Plenty of real ones.
 
@Catija That's exactly my point. Assuming so would be sexist thinking and bias.
 
@bro I came here because I think I witnessed just that
either just that, or plain trolling
 
you sure the user was deleted?
 
@bro Um... not really. Chat is horrible for actually seeing the content of the messages and wading through them. The quality of help for the OP would diminish.
 
@AndrasDeak Are you talking about this question? The OP is kinda a jerk.
 
user315433
11:55 PM
@AndrasDeak You witnessed 1, not "more and more"
 
@JonEricson No, that's unrelated.
@bro okay
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Ah. Cool.
 
@Catija hah. Some of my users swear by it for troubleshooting.
 
the question I'm talking about had its OP deleted a few minutes after the whole ordeal. That's why I figured something might be off
 
If the OP was on a new account and had no site participation, they can self delete their accounts immediately...
 
11:57 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ which still begs the question why you chose to formulate that statement...
 
@Catija oh, I did not know that
 
If you link to the actual post (you seem to be able to see it) Jon can look at it.
 
then perhaps it's just a rage quit once they've lost their chip
 
@Vogel612'sShadow Because that kind of bias raised discussions.
 
I didn't want to create too much drama. But then again the asker is deleted, so... stackoverflow.com/questions/50109099/…
 
11:59 PM
Or they're going to tweet about it shortly...
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I'm not up-to-date on the latest in all the chaos...
 
If I'd known that new users can instant-self-delete I wouldn't have thought much of it
 
Well, if they were going to tweet about it, deleting the post was a bit counteractive... if you can't link to it, there's not much to corroborate your accusation.
 
People aren't "victims" per se, and should not be considered so. That's the wrong way to handle that.
 
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