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12:00 AM
:P
@Rob D1000 is even better
 
ert
12:17 AM
What company would ever let an employee know they're going to be sacked ahead of time?
 
Ash
@ShadowTheBurningWizard do you really expect anyone to actually give any sort of answer to this, specially in a public Google indexed room?
Like....why would they ever tell us this? If they didn't tell them, why would they tell us?
 
Rob
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Do you mean this:
What about the D10000?:
 
Strange...avatars weren't rendering for a bit
 
@ert company that believes in transparency? But yeah, on second thought it was a dumb question... Can't delete it now.
 
12:27 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard You can request an RO or mod bin it
 
Well, they can.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard done
 
Also...if I recall, there are quite a few long-term network-wide suspensions that are slated to end this decade
 
ert
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I mean, that's just not feasible. At least here, most places require a months notice from both parties. But being sacked means, 99/100 times, you'll be paid for the remaining month and be told not to come in anymore
 
@ert But, to prevent unscrupulous things from happening, it's prudent to immediately revoke any special accesses they have.
 
12:31 AM
I'm not sure that any of this is prudent
 
If the termination is itself prudent, that is
 
Which I doubt
 
Also, who's going to moderate Area 51, now that the de-facto head mod there has been removed?
 
ert
You don't need moderators if you don't have a community
3
 
I don't think they really care any more.
 
Ash
12:37 AM
I feel like this is basically partially a death blow for A51
 
@Ash that's a bit more optimistic than I am feeling
 
@ert Area 51 has no community
Which is why they've been tightening up rules to get sites established.
To make sure that there is an external community for a site, since Area 51 doesn't have one of its own.
 
My guess is they will just ignore it for a few years then close it
 
ert
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Er, not an official place, but it definitely did
 
Most of those community members have left it since.
 
Rob
12:42 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Galactic dice:
Mimas
 
Ash
@JourneymanGeek hm? How is me saying A51 is dead long live A51 is optimistic?
 
ert
Probably the 'for A51' part
 
@Ash I think it's the final blow
Not a partial one
 
12:57 AM
I wanted to congratulate Mad Scientist on crossing 150k. However, considering his changed username and other circumstances (like their recent post), I'm not sure whether they are in the mood for celebration.
 
@ert On the contrary. Without a community willing and able to help the moderators, you will need more, not fewer.
 
@jscs you don't need mods if there's no users to mod
 
I mean, there will be plenty of users on Stack Overflow for the near future, for many definitions of "near".
But those users are likely to not have the same kind of community sentiment as in the past.
 
ert
1:13 AM
@jscs Yeah, I was more implying that there'd be no community at all :). Currently, more than half the SO flags are auto flags on comments. There's been quite a drop in flags from the people who used to be prolific flaggers
 
Yahoo Answers still hasn't died after 15 years. As bad as it is, it's gonna take a lot more than the current rate of kudzu, for a long time, to stop people from showing up and posting on SO.
 
1:29 AM
@ert typically for pivotal employees they’ll negotiate a departure.
Saying “look, we want to make a strategic change, let’s negotiate your departure”. C levels and VPs that are good negotiators have these agreements in place when they join.
The part that bothers me is that they should have negotiated shog’s departure. That they didn’t is far more worrying than anything else
3
(Negotiates departures include timed transition, severance, and public well wishing)
 
ert
I've never once seen that happen :(
Severance here is a given, if it's a redundancy
 
Cf. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/325178/… (although the announcement was same-day, it clearly wasn't a surprise -- and there was an announcement).
 
Rob
@JourneymanGeek It's very difficult to locate (define?) "moderators" at Area 51 (because there's no "Moderators" tab), but I think we have three (at least) that have been active in the last month or two. A51 (or a replacement) is an essential mechanism for creating new sites.
 
Ash
@JourneymanGeek oh I didn't mean that this was a partial blow, I mean today was partially about killing A51 and not just getting rid of people.
 
Ah
I am running on not much sleep and too much adrinalin
 
Rob
1:50 AM
!!/warmmilk JourneymanGeek
 
@Rob No such command 'warmmilk'.
 
Rob
I don't think it does Cocoa either.
 
2:10 AM
I'd also like to thank Shog for donating to Yvette's horse sponsorship campaign.
 
2:30 AM
@HDE226868 I downvoted the post you just deleted. My comment was going to be: “I admire your hope and optimism. I can only think of Maya Angelou’s quote: “when someone shows you who they are, believe them.”
 
@GeorgeStocker Oh, it got a downvote? Heh, I didn't see that. I deleted it because I felt it was written out of too much anger.
 
I felt like your post would give too much hope to people that it might happen, I do admire the sentiment though.
Like “maybe this will be the impassioned plea they finally listen to.” It won’t be.
 
@GeorgeStocker Naw, it would never happen. It's not realistic from a resources/time/capital perspective.
I honestly don't know what I was hoping to get out of it. Maybe that 1% chance that someone would see it.
 
@BhargavRao with the number of people from Stack Overflow that follow him it looks like it
 
2:44 AM
@GeorgeStocker I think it's a case of the definition of insanity: It didn't work last time, and likely won't work next time, but maybe if I keep saying it it'll work. And it's never true - maybe that betrays some naivete on my end.
 
3:02 AM
For what it's worth, Robert Harvey made a similar request a few months ago @HDE226868: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387435/…
 
Oh man, I've been complaining about that for a long time: the number of people making decisions who don't even have accounts on the network.
I rammed my head through every wall I could find regarding that. Complained to multiple CMs about the fact that new hires to SO didn't even use SO.
I identified this as a root problem early on. And yet...I don't think it's actually the problem anymore.
 
Building a community is hard. Building a healthy one is much harder, but hardest of all is rebuilding a community that was once thriving which has undergone turmoil.
4
 
The amazing thing, @JasonAller, is that, at least on Stack Exchange, it's not even that hard. The Our community is so incredibly resilient that, for a long time, the company could do any stupid thing it wanted, and people would just keep on doing what they'd always done: making this place one of the best, highest-quality sites on the Internet.
 
Oopsie.
I wonder when they'll decrease the number of devs on public QA
 
3:10 AM
@CodyGray during a meetup a few years ago, an internal employee said that SO was losing community trust and that they only had a few years to fix it before they had a major problem. That employee left shortly thereafter but her prediction was spot on.
4
This was relayed to me by another departed employee
 
Yeah, I believe I recall hearing of that prediction.
I don't think she was the only one to make that prediction, but she might have been the first.
 
I want to say it was given in 2014? I can’t remember
The point is that you’re spot on. Because the product is good, and because the community tends to run itself, that gave SO a lot of room to mess up. They’ve squandered that
 
@jscs Oh, excellent, thank you.
 
Yeah. Up until today, I wasn't even convinced that it was too late.
I mean, the damage was irreparable. People were lost for good. But the site could still continue with such a direction that it would continue to be a useful force well into the future.
 
Of course, there's a difference between "not fixing it" and "breaking it faster". :/
 
3:15 AM
Right, exactly.
 
@CodyGray I'm not sure I agree that it wasn't even that hard. I think there were people who put in a lot of work, from both the community, the moderators, and the developers. They made some of it look effortless, but there was a lot of effort put in.
 
Oh. Yeah. Some of us did work pretty hard. Didn't mean to deny credit where it is due. I was referring to your last statement regarding "rebuilding" the community once it has been built.
It would not have been that hard to rebuild SO/SE, precisely because of the amount of work that was put in early on by so many.
 
@CodyGray Ah, I had misinterpreted your words.
 
It's been hard for me to be coherent today. Not your fault.
 
3:39 AM
I'm trying to envision ways in which trust could be rebuilt. I see that as a very hard task, that got harder today.
I'd like to get back to trying to formulate a suggestion about changing the current moderation tools from a select one reason, to a select multiple applicable areas for improvement and have that build a more customized comment. I've long thought that making it easier to leave constructive feedback would go a long way to being more welcoming.
 
I'll relay what I said earlier; SE doesn't deserve a 27th chance. Why brainstorm on their behalf? Let them dig themselves out of their own grave, should they choose to actually course-correct
7
 
@ndugger because their long term success benefits all those who have need of the service that they provide?
 
I don't know if it's just because emotions are hot, but I don't trust SE with anything long-term. At this point, I feel like we should be backing a community-led project, take the power away from the people causing the problems.
3
I think Github should step into the Q&A business
I'd use that
Would make a great enterprise feature, too
 
I'm trying to think if I've ever seen moderation by GitHub itself in repo issues, or about repos in general. Have you seen examples of that in the past?
 
I don't think I've ever seen that either. Is there even a report feature? There must be. I've never had to use it, strangely enough
 
3:52 AM
I'd also wonder how that changed with their acquisition by Microsoft. I know there was a lot of community concern about that change and what it meant for the future.
 
Github has only improved since MS bought it. They probably already had the same roadmap, but it's been executed. I think a Q&A platform would be a great fit with the direction its going, but that could bloat it up too, so I dunno. Just an idea.
If that was mostly incoherent, I'm not sober, so I apologize lol
 
I'm rereading their terms of service: "We do not pre-screen User-Generated Content, but we have the right (though not the obligation) to refuse or remove any User-Generated Content that, in our sole discretion, violates any GitHub terms or policies."
help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/… looks like they have a system in place.
 
You do quite well when you are not sober, @ndugger. I'm a pretty harsh critic of these things, and everything you said made sense to me. Not sure I agree with it yet, but it was fully coherent.
@JasonAller Putting aside whether or not it makes sense to be trying to brainstorm ideas for SE, this would not be an especially useful feature. Moderators do not want or need to have users selecting multiple reasons. That would just waste time on both ends.
 
4:14 AM
I'm thinking of those new users who ask questions that have multiple areas for improvement. An example would be "What is the best library to add to X to do Y" which has two things that need improvement, not asking for something best, because that is opinion based, and not asking for an external resource (which is probably the more important thing).
 
ert
@MeganRisdal o/
 
Hello \o
 
Oh look, it's the last staff member I was sad to see go! How quickly things change.
 
If they only get feedback on one of the two issues it sets them up to fail when they go to ask their second question, if they ever ask a second question.
 
@CodyGray :sob:
 
4:16 AM
Hi Meg
 
Ya I couldn't stop turning this all over in my mind today so I thought I'd stop by
 
I know the feeling. I got almost no productive work done today. Too much in a state of shock.
 
@MeganRisdal and it's appreciated
@CodyGray quite honestly, I'm furious
Even worse than with Monica.
 
I don't know how you progressed so quickly into anger. I haven't gotten over the shock.
 
@CodyGray well, I've been dealing with meta
 
4:19 AM
What...how is this even going to work?
Oh, yeah, saw you handled my flag. :-)
 
I don't think it's meant to
 
Shog was one of the most delightful people I've ever worked with. Even if calling him "delightful" to his face might get me a scoff and a "Me? Delightful. Well, let me tell you a story ..." :P
10
 
@MeganRisdal every single time something went wrong, we figured we could make it through cause we had good community folks.
Used to joke that Shog works in mysterious ways.
He is one of those folks who actually understands this community
 
@JourneymanGeek Yes, exactly that. That is why I am so shocked, and scared. There's no one left in any comparable role with his depth of knowledge and capability.
 
I'm doubly pissed off that they keep spinning this as good for the community
 
ert
4:22 AM
@MeganRisdal You had to come along and get all our hopes up in your short time at SE :(. The comment dashboard is amazing, so thank you!
 
> *slides knife in*
> "No, no, we're just "investing" this blade into the "community"
 
@MeganRisdal I don't really have words but still would like to say hello :)
Hope life is treating you well!
 
4:28 AM
@curious No worries! Hello and thank you :)
 
@MeganRisdal what hurts the most is the people we lost (granted you had the best reason) are the folks I feel have been reflecting what got us this far
3
I'm down to 3 members of staff I actually think get it.
 
Said differently: I'm running out of people to put trust in. All of my canaries are dying.
I used to be able to think, well, I don't fully understand the motivations for this at this time, and from my outsider perspective, it doesn't look like a good idea, but this person whom I highly trust is on-board with it, so I'm going to hope for the best.
 
@CodyGray and after a decade, maybe I need to find somewhere else
Maybe retreat back to SU first
 
Not sure I agree with that. Just because it's been a decade doesn't automatically mean it's time to give up or jump ship.
It's more like, after a year of this silliness and banging my head on the wall hoping for a different result, maybe it's time to find somewhere else or something else to do.
 
Naw. It's what has happened in the last 6 months
 
4:37 AM
Has it only been 6 months?
Feels like a lot longer
 
That's the worst of it
Least for me
 
What first got up my hackles was replacing the SO homepage with ads and obliterating all traces of free Q&A.
That...hasn't really changed.
 
There's always been a glimmer of things getting better
That one morsel of hope
There's literally nothing left
 
Yeah...
 
Y'all are here... There is something left. :-/
 
4:40 AM
Until they realize 'oh we are not doing as well as we thought' then we have another death spiral
@curious this feels a bit like a wake
 
Until they realize that I share 99.999% of my opinions with Shog9 and decide that we just can't have that for a moderator.
 
@CodyGray Who did you think was on board?
 
@CodyGray or that I'm troublesome for insisting smaller sites matter
 
I really don't think the CMs were on board with what SE did to Monica, at all.
 
@Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica I mean more little things, not big giant things that everyone was upset about like Monica.
 
4:41 AM
Ah, OK.
 
Increasing scores on question upvotes....
 
@Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica so many times I was raging and one of the CMs would help pull me back
 
Shog is the one who sold me on increasing reputation gain from question upvotes being a good idea. I was originally very opposed to it, like most of the SO community.
 
Literally they were a major factor I came back to modding meta
 
@JourneymanGeek nods
Has Shog posted anything on SE/SO since?
 
4:43 AM
But how do I say 'hey you can't call for someone to get fired' when the person I respect the most in the community was?
 
@Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica He posted a "thank you" on the MSE post announcing his firing.
re-reading that... uh...
 
@CodyGray Right, he did.
Anything after that?
Probably not?
 
No
If you know Shog, you know he's got a big bottle of Southern Comfort or something, and not at all worried about posting online.
 
@Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica Not according to his network activity: stackexchange.com/users/620/shog9?tab=activity
 
@CodyGray Yeah.
@JasonAller Right! I wouldn't either.
 
@MeganRisdal o/
 
Hello @HDE226868 \o
 
Things going well for you back at Kaggle?
(If I can ask.)
 
I actually took a leave immediately after starting so I could take some time off. I start work again next week. Just been vacationing in Hawaii which has been nice but pretty windy / rainy.
 
5:10 AM
Ooooh, Hawaii sounds quite nice. Glad to hear that.
 
Not really the right time of the year for Hawaii.
 
5:29 AM
Thanks, SmokeDetector, for reminding me how annoying it is not to have moderator privileges on all these other sites.
 
Ben Popper on January 14, 2020

Software is eating the world, but what’s on the menu for dessert?

This week we chat about the best way for engineers to give feedback to executives. Paul explains the Purple room method they use at Postlight. Sara references Zero to One and why engineers and marketers have so much trouble communicating.

As a member of a marketing department , it’s true our job is to see the glass as half full. But sometimes the point of the exercise is to be aspirational. Police learn how to be suspicious, marketers learn how to sell, and engineers look for what’s broken so they can fix it. …

 
@CodyGray On the bright side, you do have autoflagging privileges
(Mods can't autoflag, or else they'd singlehandedly nuke based on a bot)
@CodyGray I vacationed in Goa, India (similar latitude and climate as Hawaii) in December a few years ago, and it was perfectly fine...
 
5:46 AM
I have to set up accounts and all that nonsense on every single site just to be able to flag. Far too much work, and I don't want accounts on every site.
The tooling suggests strongly that I should just do nothing, so that's what I do.
 
At least you don't have to earn rep...
 
hah
I can't even remember the last time I thought about earning rep.
Oh, I think it was when I joined Code Review, and desperately wanted edit privileges because it was so frustrating not to have them.
 
I'm an SOCVR participator without enough rep to close and it's super annoying to not be able to see specific off-topic close reasons
 
Heh. Last time I actively tried was meta 10k
Cause I wanted to see a post where someone complained about me 😁
 
Fun fact: nobody can see the "resource request" close reason, even moderators!
@JourneymanGeek You should have just let me know. I'd be happy to post something complaining about you any time.
 
5:49 AM
@CodyGray What do you mean?
 
The blue box doesn't display the "resource request" sub-reason of "off-topic" to anyone. It is apparently by design. I have no idea why.
 
And that is unlike other off-topic close reasons? Really? MSO link?
 
Yes.. other off-topic close reasons are shown.
This one's reported on MSE. By Makyen, I believe.
 
That's...extremely weird.
 
It's an answer to Yaakov's announcement post. I tried to go find it, but got immediately hung up by an off-topic question on MSE.
10
A: New Post Notices rollout on Stack Overflow

Makyenbug status-bydesign Questions closed as "off-site resource request" do not show the reason they were closed. They say only "off-topic". Link to example question Image of question with post notice that says only "off-topic": SE API query: To verify the close reason, look at the description i...

 
5:55 AM
@CodyGray I don't think Yaakov particularly got the purpose of that report; it seems to me that he initially mistook it for the usual "low rep, I can't see it" and declined it without reading it completely thoroughly. Since he anyway requested a new discussion venue, let's provide one and re-raise it.
 
Go right ahead. I'm certain Makyen won't mind, either.
It's a very annoying problem, in my experience.
I've seen a lot of MSO questions from folks who honestly have no idea why their question was closed.
Many of them just because the new post notices are extremely unclear by comparison, of course, not due to this bug.
 
@CodyGray I'm not that much of a SO user, you're more experienced at it than me. You go ahead and file it; I might edit it but I'm not experienced enough to file it and own it IMO.
 
so, what's the point of not showing low-rep users the reason a question is considered off-topic?
 
Oh, I figured you'd file on MSE. You've got at least as much experience there as I do, I'd wager.
@JohnDvorak Unwelcoming.
Better to keep them confused and guessing.
Did you know we also no longer recommend that people edit their question to make it on-topic?
 
@CodyGray I have SE and Meta experience mostly; read my main site bio
Also, um, there's a link in SOCVR directing users who want to talk about the Shog situation here. I think this might raise too much drama here; to Tavern regulars: is it OK if we keep that link, or should we remove it?
 
5:58 AM
heh
Isn't drama what this room is for?
 
So, instead of learning the site scope in advance, I'm forced to take a guess based on the one actually relevant page in help center - if I even know it exists - and if I get it wrong, I'm screwed?
Because that's more welcoming to me somehow?
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I rather prefer having one place where I have to "manage" stuff.
and don't tell me or other RO's what to do.
 
@rene I was more referring to changing the link to another dedicated chat room for that purpose. Sorry if I was unclear.
 
Don't really think we need a Shog Overflow room.
Although...folks get fired often enough around here, maybe it makes sense.
 
@JohnDvorak You've got an overdeveloped sense of logic. It's going to get you into trouble someday. ;)
 
6:01 AM
@jscs I keep waiting for that day to catch me off-guard. Crossing my fingers.
@JohnDvorak The real welcoming starts when you read the comments.
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I don't think that I want to restrict talk of that
Usual rules apply. A little loosely I guess
 
Nothing about this is "usual", so I think that's reasonable.
 
@CodyGray it's usually no personal attacks, no swearing
 
@CodyGray ah, yes. One site welcomingly says my question is on-topic on the other site, the other site says it's on-topic on the first one. Neither bears any responsibility when I get Q-banned on both.
 
This is unique, for sure. Although...I'll be surprised if it's the last "surprise" this year, or even this quarter.
 
6:03 AM
@JourneymanGeek That's pretty much the whole network...?
@JohnDvorak I'll take full responsibility for Q-bans on SO. Never seen one go wrong yet.
But yeah, that trying to ping-pong garbage around from one site to another, that has to stop.
 
@CodyGray yup
 
I swore this morning when I read the announcement. But it wasn't in a room you moderate, so I think I'm safe. :-)
 
And that's literally something we end up reminding folks of when things get heated
 
to be fair, every asker on SO could get Q-banned at once and it wouldn't be considered wrong :P
 
@CodyGray I'm too upset for swearing
 
6:06 AM
That's like being too drunk to fall down. Can't happen!
@jscs One fear that keeps me up at night is what'll happen during the next SO moderator election.
Assuming I make it that long.
 
@CodyGray EC gets elected
 
As in, who will dare to nominate themselves?
 
Right
It'll be all trolls and folks who are ignorant of events (which, in my mind, makes them automatically unqualified).
 
Yep, it's crossed my mind too
Yeah
 
Unless it's Makyen and Shog9. Then that'll be fantastic.
 
6:09 AM
Hahahaha.
 
or Monica
 
I would come log in to vote for Shog, for sure.
Except I'm not sure I'd want him to do it...I dunno, we'll see what information comes out over the next few days.
 
I don't think anything will
 
You're afraid that maybe he just suddenly turned to the Dark Side?
 
They're hiring more sales folks
 
6:12 AM
And that maybe there was complete and total cause for his termination?
 
It's clear what the new priorities are. Same as the old ones.
Maybe it'll work out. Maybe they'll downsize more
 
@CodyGray Heh. No; the dismissal just seems so ignominious, I'd question his self-respect.
 
Meh. You might as well question mine. I don't know what to do. It's a hard freakin' call.
 
@jscs I don't think anyone can argue that Shog was a bit of a SE icon
Even if you didn't like him
 
@CodyGray You have my respect regardless; I don't envy your position.
@JourneymanGeek No argument whatsoever.
 
6:15 AM
I know in theory that the line has to be drawn somewhere, but... behavioraleconomics.com/resources/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/…
 
@jscs I'd argue that if he were to rejoin, it would be refusing to go down rather than begging for a second chance
 
Yeah, absolutely. Being a moderator is totally different from being staff.
In particular, you answer to a completely different set of bosses.
 
@JohnDvorak Interesting view; I might just buy into it. :)
 
@jscs same thing happened the last time
 
@JourneymanGeek Last time?
 
6:16 AM
And it looks like a smaller round of layoffs
@jscs they suddenly laid off a bunch of folks
 
I assume the pupper is referring to everyone who questioned why in the world Monica would ever want to be reinstated by a company who treated her the way they did?
 
No real warning
@CodyGray naw. The big layoffs
We lost a few CMs then too
 
@JourneymanGeek ...I can't help but feel that's completely different.
 
Oh, the last round of layoffs that got some other good folks. Oded included.
 
I may be wrong...
 
6:18 AM
@jscs it's the same
 
You did hear that there were other folks fired this time around, in addition to Shog and Robert, right? At least one of the developers was let go.
 
@CodyGray and one SRE
I think
 
Hmm, this is interesting context.
 
Seeing folks from that team endorsing someone
@CodyGray ugh. Ya. Like last time
 
I mean, it still doesn't explain why you'd let your obviously top CM go, even if you were going to get rid of people.
 
ert
6:19 AM
I think we've all got a good idea why
 
Yeah.
He wasn't enough of a gender minority?
He had the support of the Meta community?
 
I don't know the exact reasons, but as I said earlier, I wasn't surprised by this. Saddened, yes. But I didn't expect Shog to make it to the end of 2020 at this company.
 
On the contrary, I was shocked. I never thought they'd be this stupid.
Shog single-handedly got them out of innumerable jams, created by their own stupid decisions.
How could they not see that?
 
I would have bet on him leaving first, but...
 
@CodyGray maybe that's the whole idea.
 
6:22 AM
I was pretty confident there was a mismatch either way.
 
Even if you're bull-headed and committed to doubling down on their new policies, which they apparently are, you absolutely don't fire the one guy who can effectively liaise between you and a very vocal community.
 
@jscs I'd rather see the other person go then
 
Yeah, when I read it, I thought he finally decided he'd had it and left. But then, no.
 
@JourneymanGeek Again, no argument. :)
 
No. I actually didn't/couldn't see Shog giving up on us
 
ert
6:23 AM
@CodyGray Well, you're assuming they want to find a middle ground between their policies and the community's opinion
 
I'm sure when the crap hits the fan, that will not be true of many
 
ert
No one to calm things down? Easier to shut things down
 
@ert I'm not, even. Even putting myself in their shoes, and bull-headedly wanting to drive this stuff through with no compromises, I'd still want a Shog on my team to placate the "opposition".
 
@CodyGray I'm having a really hard time figuring this out, personally. But I've seen just enough situations where that's happened that I know something is going on that makes complete sense to someone completely different than me.
 
@ert only thing is - they will need to do it themselves
 
ert
6:24 AM
And, if I'm being perfectly candid, I don't think it'll be long before there's a wave of forced demodding
 
@JourneymanGeek Not us, whoever's pulling the strings these days.
 
Firing Shog as a moderator? Sure, I could totally understand that. It's why I think my days are numbered. But...he was an employee. Technically, he had to toe the company line. And from a company perspective, given his other talents and the respect that he commanded, that was invaluable.
 
And without meta, they basically are going to not be able to contain it.
 
@CodyGray I wouldn't have been surprised at Shog quitting. Shog getting fired wasn't even on my radar when thinking about the next dumb thing SE might do
 
@JourneymanGeek ?
 
6:25 AM
@CodyGray typo
 
@CodyGray Yeah, but you can toe the company line when you're externally facing and still be a thorn-in-the-side internally.
 
@jscs Oh, good point. Forgot about that. (How?)
Probably because I am that thorn-in-the-side everywhere I go and work.
 
Heh
 
ert
@CodyGray Shog doesn't mince his words.. He probably made it pretty clear to people that some of the ideas were idiotic
 
Yet, somehow, he manages to be more diplomatic than me
 
6:27 AM
deadly diplomatic ...
 
See, this is proof that diplomacy doesn't pay
Just call 'em like you see 'em
Some of the ideas were idiotic. In fact, most ideas are. That's the default state for ideas.
It takes a lot of time and effort to turn ideas into good ideas.
 
ert
Lotta folks these days don't take any criticism at all well
 
Amazingly, he had not only the time and energy, but the boundless creativity to do just that.
@ert Ugh, don't I know it. Drives me crazy.
 
@ert What! How dare you! I take criticism very well! Get OUT!
 
How lacking in confidence do you have to be in your own ideas that you cannot take someone disagreeing with you?
 
6:32 AM
disagreement is a pretty effective way to improve on things
 
@ert Shog doesn't mince his words; he passes them through a Vollrath grinder with a carefully-chosen grinding plate, mixes them by hand with the finest herbs and spices and the proper amount of salt, packs them into casings, puts them in the smokehouse for a day or two, grills them up, and then invites you to top them with your favorite condiments on homemade buns.
2
 
Exactly
Calling out ideas as being stupid is exactly how you get stuff done, including coming up with better ideas.
 
ert
@rene Small criticism... "What" and "How dare you" are questions :)
 
Only if you're asking them as questions
Not if you're making statements
 
ert
How can they be statements?
 
6:34 AM
When you don't want an answer
How can I be wrong.
 
ert
Still a question
 
I'll be pretty scared within my job if everyone said Yeah, let's do that as proposed. That can't be right.
 
Sure sign that they're coordinating a mutiny against you, @rene.
 
I'll let Cody do the arguing here @ert He is doing great on my behalf ..
 
FYI I still have that Network Notification Room open: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/99270/network-notification-room
 
6:38 AM
I do have a few talents. Arguing is among them.
 

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