Tavern on the Meta

PM 2Ring

7:11 AM

@CodyGray Sort of. Yesterday, I cast the final close vote on astronomy.stackexchange.com/q/34694/16685 It was closed with a custom reason, which you can see in the comments, but that reason isn't in the closed post notice, and it's not obvious to the OP that it's the reason 5 people chose to close-vote their question.

PM 2Ring

7:23 AM

@jscs Don't forget that they're going to be rolling out the "new improved" stuff for bug reports (and various other functions that they're removing from MSE) shortly. IIRC, they said that'd start happening early 2020.

Cody Gray

@PM2Ring Custom close reasons have never been shown in "closed" banners.

Magisch

what the everloving *** is going on

PM 2Ring

@CodyGray Oh, ok. I must've imagined it. :)

Cody Gray

@PM2Ring Yeah... Too much risk in doing that. You don't want some random person's typed-out gibberish to start appearing as if it's an official message from the site.

@Magisch Rhetorical? Or do you need an actual summary?

Magisch

@CodyGray actual summary pls

I saw a thread about shog no longer working there, and maybe it's my pessimism speaking but jesus christ

Disappointed in SE

7:26 AM

SE fired Shog and Robert Cartaino to ensure that the community has a seat at the table

Cody Gray

This summarizes it pretty well, with the disclaimer that I wrote 90% of it.

But yeah, "jesus christ" is an appropriate reaction. Mine was much more emphatic when I heard the news several hours ago.

Magisch

they what!

they WHAT!

@CodyGray jesus christ is the highly censored version because my actual reaction my coworkers just got to listen to was highly inappropriate to write down

Cody Gray

My coworker was quite puzzled this morning.

He assumed it was a stupid email from our own management. But no, not in this case.

We appreciate your self-censorship

Magisch

time to really get that alternative going eh, doesn't seem like there's a thing left to hold on to here

Cody Gray

But will they give us a seat at the table?

I've given up a lot for that, so I think I intend to receive it.

PM 2Ring

7:31 AM

@Magisch From meta.stackexchange.com/a/342045/334566 "We’re seeking to align the company so that it can continue growing in 2020 and we continue to be committed in investing in the community and ensuring that it has a seat at the table as we keep moving forward. These changes are a part of that process."

Magisch

i'll go ahead and restrict myself from answering or commenting on any of these threads because every single thing I want to say right now will get me suspended

Cody Gray

heh

I still haven't been able to string together the words needed to wish Shog the best.

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray I'm guessing a random generator right now could do better than most of us...

Cody Gray

Oh my! Whatever happened to the cute, red bird, @Tinkeringbell?

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray It finally was too red, even for me.

Cody Gray

7:39 AM

You decided this when you realigned your profile page so that it could continue growing in 2020?

PM 2Ring

I'm reminded of the Monty Python Happy Valley sketch.

... all his subjects flourished and were happy, and there were no discontents or grumblers, because wise King Otto had had them all put to death along with the trade union leaders many years before. And all the good happy folk of Happy Valley sang and danced all day long. And anyone who was for any reason miserable or unhappy or who had any difficult personal problems was prosecuted under the 'Happiness Act'.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Tink what?! I can't recognize you now! :(

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray I don't think my profile page needs much growing. We'll see.

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I haven't changed my name...

Cody Gray

Nobody reads anything. All we do is look at pictures.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Sometimes it's good that dreams don't come true... ;-)

@Tinkeringbell I look on the avatar first

Cody Gray

7:41 AM

I see on your Twitter that I can get money by becoming your friend? This intrigues me.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray urgh... you don't read! :P

Cody Gray

Nobody does

Shadow The Burning Wizard

I got at least three different cases of "legit" people who tried to befriend me via private messages, then after week or two, asked for money in different ways.

Cody Gray

I just chuckled, because it's like those signs you see up in restaurants, bars, etc. Really odd things, like, "Do not put your shoes on the counter". Things that could only have been posted in response to an unusually frequent occurrence of these odd events.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

One wanted money so he can become a soccer player.... another wanted money for Syria (I shared that one here)... and more. It's just annoying.

Cody Gray

7:43 AM

Was that a Joel Spolsky blog that discussed that? I know he had one about the Options dialog being a summary of all the internal wars/discussions between the devs.

This just in: Twitter is annoying.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

And needless to say, once I refused to give money, they were gone, one blocked me, didn't check the others.

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray Depends on what Twitter is focused on doing on any particular moment, but yes ;)

Cody Gray

Yup, 'twas Joel.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray or "don't pee on electric fence"? :P

Cody Gray

Nah, that's a sign you don't put up.

You just hide and watch.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

7:45 AM

lol

Magisch

Twitter is either a inconsequential social media thing that tries to steal your time or a black vortex where goodwill and discourse goes to be annihilated and from whence it can never emerge, depending on the day and your timeline

Cody Gray

@Tinkeringbell For me, it isn't what Twitter is doing that's annoying, but rather what the people on Twitter are doing that's annoying.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Magisch Still better than Facebook, IMO

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray Oh, yes... That's what I meant with Twitter too ;)

Magisch

yeah, but that's an incredibly low bar

Shadow The Burning Wizard

7:46 AM

@Cody what's your Twitter? Can't find you.... :(

Cody Gray

I don't have a Twitter

Or a Facebook

I did sign up with this one service that used to be cool

Megan Risdal

I would totally follow Cody on twitter. Shame.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray whaaaaat

@MeganRisdal same. Oh, hey! :)

Cody Gray

Haha

Megan Risdal

;)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

7:48 AM

How are you doing? @Megan

Megan Risdal

Can't complain

Cody Gray

We heard earlier she's vacationing in Hawaii, so better than all of us.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Can't you bring @Shog to work in your company?

Cody Gray

Shog's gotten like 900 job offers via Twitter since he posted that early-morning lament.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@ert that sucks :(

@CodyGray as expected, and as he totally deserves, yeah. :)

Cody Gray

7:50 AM

I hope he still remembers how to be a programmer

He's been babysitting adults for too many years

Megan Risdal

I wish. I'd work w/ him again in a heartbeat and Kaggle would be a great fit for him IMO (slightly biased). Though sadly my team isn't hiring AFAIK. :( I'm on vacation til next week, so if he isn't spoken for by then I'll ask around.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray that's frankly harder

Cody Gray

Absolutely! But completely different than babysitting machines.

Tinkeringbell

@CodyGray Programming on a team is like babysitting other adults.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray sure he is, he kept writing scripts and tools to help him in his daily tasks on SE.

@Tinkeringbell at least no need to change diapers. :D

Journeyman Geek

7:54 AM

@CodyGray actually I suspect being a CM here from the old days gives some unique experiences

Also I seem to recall Shog was one of the few CMs with direct db and code access

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Probably Tim got those too, yeah.

Journeyman Geek

Well, not many CMs left

Cody Gray

Yup, he was given database access. I'm sure he saw the source code, but I'm not sure he had check-in privileges. Certainly not in the later days.

PM 2Ring

I think it'd be hard for Shog to get a plain coding job. Anyone employing him will want to utilize his awesome communication skills.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Cody example of what I talk about:

Mar 8 '17 at 3:57, by Shog9

I've accomplished more in an afternoon with a script or a few minutes and a regex.

Cody Gray

7:57 AM

I'm familiar

Journeyman Geek

@PM2Ring quite.

Cody Gray

Writing a few one-off scripts and slinging a few regexes isn't quite the same as maintaining a production codebase, though.

But hopefully it's like riding a bike.

Journeyman Geek

Thought I always felt that the way community was done here, as an integral part of how the network was built up was unique

Cody Gray

@PM2Ring Yeah...I have the same problem. I'm actually good at public speaking, and so companies always want me to do presentations and stuff when I really just want to be writing code.

@JourneymanGeek That was all thanks to Jeff Atwood

Journeyman Geek

Yup

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:00 AM

Yep

Journeyman Geek

Though the way discourse is structured means it's less obvious there

Cody Gray

Yap

rene

@CodyGray I still have those training-wheels on ...

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray well in his tweet Shog presented his skills as programmer first, not his CM skills.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard harder to sell. Programming has more marketability

Cody Gray

8:01 AM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard He knows it's going to mess him up, having been a CM for so long, so it makes sense to emphasize his programming skills. It's something he cautioned me about a while back when I was considering applying for a job at SO. That was...actually not that long ago, but seems like forever.

JAD

hmm, that was quite a bit of transcript to come back to in the morning

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray oh, you switched jobs? Where you landed then?

@JAD like a Tsunami? ;)

!!/coffee JAD

Cody Gray

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I was previously unemployed. I have a job now. Been working there just slightly over 2 years now. But I absolutely hate it, and I'm looking for other opportunities.

SmokeDetector

@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of Affogato for @JAD

JAD

@ShadowTheBurningWizard like a coursing river

Cody Gray

8:03 AM

It's my fault. I talk a lot. Even though I don't chat much. PARADOX!

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray ouch. Why hate it? Job itself, or the people?

Magisch

@CodyGray a year and a half ago, kinda feels like an eternity

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray I would really love to see you stick around here! :)

Cody Gray

@ShadowTheBurningWizard People. Management in particular. The job itself is fine.

I started off doing embedded software development. Now I've taken over basically all other functions, including hardware design. It's been quite a learning experience, but the stress level is just ridiculously high, and we are way too dysfunctional.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray oh... reminds me of amdocs... management there sucks big time too. No idea how that company survives.

It's rotten from the inside.

Cody Gray

8:05 AM

Yup, same. Our top management are the owners, and it's a small company, so... Plenty of ways for that to go wrong.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray kinda how I feel about my job. Just that the stuff I want to do seems out of reach, or getting ruined

Magisch

@CodyGray I think we can all sing a tale of companies surviving despite their management, not because of it

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray yeah, can understand. But you keep going, for now?

Cody Gray

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I do... I am quite persistent.

Hoping that putting in my time will make it easier to go elsewhere and actually be happy later down the road.

I don't have a CS degree, so that makes it difficult to get hired without having several years of experience. I didn't have any going into this job.

So I appreciate the opportunity very much.

Even though I am now ironically running the show. Responsible for 10 projects, designing/developing 3 new products. Kinda ridiculous for someone that other HR departments wouldn't even give the time of day.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray nice. Wait, something doesn't fit in. So you were a freelancer before that job?

Cody Gray

8:09 AM

Nah. Worked in other industries.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

oh.... which?

Cody Gray

Taught myself programming, largely assisted by Stack Overflow.

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Taught high school for several years.

I'm not that old

Megan Risdal

I didn't know that @CodyGray. Very cool.

Cody Gray

Most people are shocked to hear I'm younger than 60. :-)

Megan Risdal

(Not that you're not old. Your career trajectory.)

Cody Gray

8:12 AM

Oh yeah, my career trajectory is crazy

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Cody I always considered you to be 30-40

Cody Gray

Barely 30! Actually...will be 31 in a few months. But I'd still say that's barely 30.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

haha

Journeyman Geek

I'm 36 😁

Shadow The Burning Wizard

What did you teach? @Cody

Cody Gray

8:13 AM

I dropped out of college to teach, so I didn't actually graduate with a degree myself until I was quite a bit older.

@ShadowTheBurningWizard History. Also coached the debate team, which was the primary reason why I was doing it in the first place.

It's crazy to me to think that some people have their lives/careers actually planned out.

Tinkeringbell

History is a cool subject to teach (says the archaeology major)

Cody Gray

It's absolutely one of the best.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray nice!

Cody Gray

You literally just get to tell stories. But what I especially loved was teaching people how to think.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Writing history book about Stack Exchange should be... interesting. ;)

Cody Gray

8:15 AM

God, I've been here long enough, haven't I?

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray No! Stay! Please!

:P

Cody Gray

I mean to write a history book

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Oh

Yeah. :)

Cody Gray

I still feel like we lost a lot with the Great Meta Schism.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Still losing, it's ongoing.

I just wonder... who's next? What's the next bad move?

Cody Gray

8:17 AM

Yeah. I don't even have time to keep up with MSE. I have plenty on my plate with MSO.

I honestly try to read everything that gets posted there. It's crazy.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Not much on MSE

djsmiley2k in darkness

/me looks in

Cody Gray

The next bad move is shutting down meta

Mark my words

Feel free to interrupt me, @djsmiley2kindarkness

Shadow The Burning Wizard

!!/tea djsmiley

SmokeDetector

@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of earl grey tea for @djsmiley

djsmiley2k in darkness

8:18 AM

/me wibbles

sanity restored, tho I kind of wish it wasnt'

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray hey, that's my dark prophecy! ;)

Mithical

@CodyGray As in making it read-only. I honestly wouldn't be surprised.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Oct 12 '19 at 8:17, by Shadow

@Aza when too many people take part, the only option is shutting down the place.

Cody Gray

I don't know if it'll be made read-only or just removed entirely.

But it doesn't really matter.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

But Area 51 is first, now without moderation at all, it's a sure thing it's going to be shut down.

curious

8:20 AM

@Mithical me neither...what I wonder is where will people decide to take their interventions then

Cody Gray

The damage was done once the management started sticking their fingers in their ears and not paying attention to Meta.

PM 2Ring

@CodyGray I'm still not convinced that they'll completely remove Meta SE. They'll just move most of its functionality to new tools.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Or become a chaos, as proposals won't be closed.

Cody Gray

At this point, it's all just symbolism. Nobody is reading or caring about what gets posted there.

Mithical

@ShadowTheBurningWizard It was effectively shut down when the new requirements for a site went into effect.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:21 AM

@CodyGray @Yaakov reads and cares, for what it's worth, but he's only a single developer. :(

Cody Gray

@ShadowTheBurningWizard it's not going to become chaos as long as they have moderators. And I don't think they're going to strip all the moderators. Why? Just shut it down.

Mithical

@CodyGray There's too much historical reference on them... documentation... plus the internal chats hosted on chat.Meta.SE.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray there are actual moderators there?? Never checked, actually. Assumed it's all Robert.

Cody Gray

Do you see any evidence that anyone cares about historical references or documentation? I'm confident they can find a way to move their chat server.

@ShadowTheBurningWizard On Meta?

Mithical

@ShadowTheBurningWizard no there are no A51 mods

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:22 AM

@CodyGray Area51

Cody Gray

I have no earthly clue what's happened with Area 51. I haven't paid attention to that in years.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

MSE is well moderated these days.

Some would say too well....

Cody Gray

A bit too moderated for my taste...

Yeah

Shadow The Burning Wizard

hehe

Great minds.... ;)

Cody Gray

Deletion of posts and comments is out of control on MSE.

It's turned into outright censorship.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:23 AM

cough mods are here

Mithical

> "Great minds think alike, but fools rarely differ."

Cody Gray

Not too concerned about that. I think they all know my opinions on the matter.

Mithical

That's the full quote ;)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Mithical so wise!

Cody Gray

I'd also like to point out that I'm not just armchair moderating. I've got plenty of experience moderating a Meta site. :-)

I handle the vast majority of flags and other moderation work on MSO.

We have Bhargav Rao for the main site. :-)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:25 AM

@CodyGray I see it as turning off the fire by taking out the burning material instead of using water.

It's legit, even if extreme.

Cody Gray

Sometimes, it's more effective to just let it smolder.

Unless it's totally out of control, of course.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

hmm

MSE did smolder for a long time.

Mithical

MSE lately has looked a bit like Australia.

Cody Gray

When people are really upset, and when they have good reason to be, trying to put out the fire just isn't going to work.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray nice... @BhargavRao is awesome, no doubt. :)

JAD

8:27 AM

@CodyGray but in this analogy, the mods don't have access to water, only SE can provide that, so lacking anything else to fight the fire with...

Yaakov Ellis

@ShadowTheBurningWizard +1

And I am not the only one

Cody Gray

@JAD Deletion doesn't fight fires. It just hides the discontent from the people who can actually respond to it.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@YaakovEllis you're the vocal one. :)

JAD

And those that would have to respond to the fires, see threads lit up, point at meta as a whole and conclude it's salvageable as a whole

Cody Gray

I mean, at some point you have to use your brain. Are all these people just jerks, or is there something fundamentally wrong here

JAD

8:30 AM

I mean, it's still on fire. Do the mods have to sit twiddling thumbs waiting for SE to start caring?

Cody Gray

I don't know how to make people start caring.

JAD

which kinda is the point :>

Cody Gray

We had someone who cared more than was good for him.

We don't have that person anymore.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray Of course there is something fundamentally wrong. But if you can't fix it yourself, at least don't let it make the whole site become chaos.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray Over, I don't know

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:32 AM

In the vain chance MSE will stay, at least it should be kept clean, in some level.

Journeyman Geek

but it as due to extraordinary situations. That's to say, people kept doing boneheaded things on all sides

unfortunately that's a trend that seems to continue

Yaakov Ellis

I can't give any details about anything. So don't ask. But I can say that lots of people care very much. Even the people who you assume don't care actually do really care.

Journeyman Geek

@YaakovEllis Its always harder for those who remain ><

Cody Gray

The question is, @YaakovEllis, what do they care about?

It isn't enough simply to "care". We all care about something; that's what makes us human. What makes us distinct is what we choose to care about, and how we choose to manifest that caring.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray I'm not sure its a question that anyone can answer

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:34 AM

@YaakovEllis thanks. I just wish this was translated to actions.

Journeyman Geek

and if the people who care have the ability to effect changes in course

Cody Gray

@JourneymanGeek I can answer for myself. Each can answer for themselves. That's how this works.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray practically though, as volunteers and "free agents" - we have a lot more leeway

the one thing that has kept me in check all along is pretty much the few people I know care

Cody Gray

Yeah, that helps. The people from whom you see concrete action in the right direction.

Its new-found absence is one of my major concerns at this point.

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek where are they now? there's maybe catija and two more cm's left, the others are just gone

I'm rapidly running out of people I trust in the company

Journeyman Geek

8:40 AM

@Magisch I'd consider@YaakovEllis one of the good ones if not someone I know well :D

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Magisch there are 8 CM's

Journeyman Geek

(Don't let it get to your head)

@ShadowTheBurningWizard eh, not really

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Some for the localized SO sites

@JourneymanGeek I counted

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard there's no 'local' CMs any more

we're down to Nicholas

Juan's kinda the CM Manager

Cody Gray

What are "local" CMs?

Journeyman Geek

8:41 AM

@CodyGray originally each non english SO site had a designated CM who knew the language

Cody Gray

Oh, right. Okay.

Journeyman Geek

Jmac did JA.SO, Jnat did PT and so on

but they got rolled into the main team or left

Cody Gray

Yeah, I suspect those will be shutting down

Mithical

Nicolas manages all the international sites now.

Journeyman Geek

I get the impression Abby is still in the company but she's not a CM

Yaakov Ellis

8:42 AM

@JourneymanGeek confirmed

Mithical

"demoted to management"

Cody Gray

Still haven't gotten an answer on this, which raises a lot of questions.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Journeyman Geek

then Grace and Animuson are community support, which isn't a frontline CM role either

though that gets swapped out periodically

Cody Gray

In terms of people who have my nearly blind trust because I know they "get" it... I count maybe 1.5 on that list.

Mithical

8:44 AM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Of those, hairboat doesn't really count anymore. Tim manages the team (along with Sara and Stephanie Cantor IIRC?), Nicolas is in charge of the international sites...

Magisch

of all those I know tim, jon, jnat and catija

Journeyman Geek

@YaakovEllis simple thing is ? When Tim was director of community - she was supposed to be his understudy

then... silence

Magisch

the others are probably fine people but I dont see them often

Cody Gray

Yeah, this is curious to me, too, @Magisch. How are these CMs nearly invisible to us? And not just us, but someone who moderates the largest site on the network.

Journeyman Geek

So I figured some nebulous internal reconfiguration. In a way, good for her, its probably safer.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:45 AM

@YaakovEllis so should we remove her from the list?

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray cause they end up doing more back end stuff, and the team's a lot smaller than it was for a bigger network

Cody Gray

I get that developers and management is busy. It's not their job to interact with moderators. But I should feel like I know all the CMs as well as I felt like I knew Shog and a handful of the others.

Journeyman Geek

Which I will add, is something we have been complaining about.

Yaakov Ellis

@JourneymanGeek nothing nebulous. It is just that most personnel changes and position changes are private.

Magisch

@CodyGray I gotta be honest I'm extremely bitter they let go shog and robert

Journeyman Geek

8:46 AM

@YaakovEllis right.

Yaakov Ellis

@ShadowTheBurningWizard yes, that is safe to do

Cody Gray

@Magisch You aren't alone.

Magisch

letting go CMs feels like the worst move they could possibly make right now

Mithical

@Magisch We all are

Journeyman Geek

@YaakovEllis you probably know your company better than I do :D

But at this point, I'm probably going to get snarkier than you deserve for something that probably blindsided y'all as much as us

Magisch

8:47 AM

@Mithical so what happens now? Do we have another 3 months of meta yule-logging or ...

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@YaakovEllis done.

Magisch

Is this where we're forced to admit that outrage is unproductive and changes nothing?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I suspect thats roughly the goal

Cody Gray

This one is easier to draw that conclusion about. At least Monica wanted to be reinstated.

Shog isn't coming back.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray she did?? I read she didn't want.

Cody Gray

8:48 AM

Unless he runs for moderator on SO, which I personally think would be wonderful, but almost entirely unrelated.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I'll settle for 1, please.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard she wanted to be reinstated without conditions.

Cody Gray

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Originally. Things have changed now after the "settlement" or whatever the heck.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@JourneymanGeek oh, missed that. What are the conditions?

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Going through the new reinstatement process...

Magisch

8:49 AM

@CodyGray would probably the first time a mod candidate cracks a supermajority before any eliminations

Cody Gray

Perhaps not being maligned as a bigot?

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard going through the reinstatement process

Cody Gray

Speaking of, can either of you MSE mods confirm that Robert Harvey wanted reinstated to SO?

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray nope

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Tinkeringbell I thought it's just some bureaucratic thing so didn't delve into it.... TL;DR about that process? What it actually means?

Journeyman Geek

8:50 AM

didn't hear anything about it

Cody Gray

This was recently brought to my attention, but I had missed that discussion.

Magisch

@ShadowTheBurningWizard star chamber esque process that can be anonymously blocked by senior management or can come with patronizing extra requirements

Cody Gray

The claim was that he couldn't be reinstated because he was suspended on MSE

Shadow The Burning Wizard

MSE != SO/MSO

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray which is roughly how the rules work

I suspect

Cody Gray

8:51 AM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Heh. I am...quite aware. :-)

Magisch

@CodyGray He said he did, but they are applying the 1 year rule to reinstatements too, so robert might not be able to begin the process until 2022

Cody Gray

Yes, I know that's how the reinstatement procedure works.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

oh... the rule is "was not suspended on any site in the last year"?

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray I'll need to check the flowchart

question is, what happens if I get suspended on another site while a mod?

Not that that's likely to happen

Magisch

I assume then if you resign you can't get back in until a year after

Cody Gray

8:52 AM

I can make that happen

Journeyman Geek

I would assume for good cause :D

Cody Gray

That's not really how we do things here

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Magisch hmm... well... still above my head, but more clear, thanks.

@Magisch @Journeyman proved it wrong

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I was not suspended though

Shadow The Burning Wizard

True.

Magisch

8:53 AM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard monica has absolutely no reason to believe they'd be fair to her, so I can completly understand not going through it

Cody Gray

@ShadowTheBurningWizard If you have some time.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray thanks

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I quit cause I was unhappy with the monica situation but felt the adults would sort it out

Magisch

thats right we never got a followup on that either possibly because they never intended to make any changes to it post-release

Cody Gray

Of course no changes were planned.

They ran it by the moderators, too. We pointed out innumerable issues, but crickets.

Management is happy with it, so ship it.

On a Friday.

It was a CYA strategy, not any real attempt at anything.

Magisch

8:54 AM

i hate the disingenous corporate drivel. If you don't care about what we think on certain issues, don't pretend otherwise. It's hella patronizing

Cody Gray

"Oh, look, we have a reinstatement procedure. With Flowcharts(TM)!"

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch on which thing?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch well - some staff are honest that they don't consider us the community

Magisch

@YaakovEllis the reinstatement procedure feedback post

Journeyman Geek

Not very popular here

Magisch

8:55 AM

there are several dozen answers pointing out improvements and issues, and I'd assume that if you're gonna make people work hard on that, we'd at least get an executive summary of feedback recieved and some response to it

Cody Gray

To be fair, which they don't deserve, it's hard for the staff to respond to the overarching issue raised in objection to the reinstatement policy, which is that after the Monica incident, how are we supposed to trust them?

2

Journeyman Geek

Who needs a few hundred die hard folks who do most of the things that keep the site from turning into yahoo answers when you have 11 million developers?

Cody Gray

But there are still some minor issues raised that could be addressed.

Magisch

doesn't have to be a change to the procedure even, but some acknowledgement and analysis that shows all this work didn't just go down a black hole into the bin

Yaakov Ellis

I'll see what I can do in getting and answer

Cody Gray

8:56 AM

@JourneymanGeek 11 million developers who want a help desk

Except that'll last 6-8 weeks before they discover that the answers they get are crap

Journeyman Geek

@YaakovEllis if you haven't seen it already, there's probably a lot of context on the mod team over that.

@CodyGray I think the idea is no one cares as long as they can ask questions

which is a concept that hurts my brain

questions have no value without answers.

But hey, 11 million devs

Cody Gray

No, I mean, that's just completely stupid.

You can't even show ads to visitors if no one visits because the content is crap.

Magisch

@YaakovEllis I appreciate you taking the time and weathering the heat that comes out in our frustration in here and still responding with compassion and care. It means a lot in these times.

6

Cody Gray

Yahoo Answers isn't making millions off of ads.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray uhm, I don't think SE is either

Cody Gray

8:58 AM

Of course not

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch you're welcome

Cody Gray

My point was more, if their ultimate goal is Yahoo Answers, then even that's not a goal.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray the ultimate goal is either to IPO or to sell out

Magisch

I have an inkling most of yahoo answers' revenue is native advertising

e.g paid spam

Journeyman Geek

I'm just confused how recent events fit in there

Cody Gray

8:59 AM

It ruins either one of those options

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