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7:11 AM
@CodyGray Sort of. Yesterday, I cast the final close vote on astronomy.stackexchange.com/q/34694/16685 It was closed with a custom reason, which you can see in the comments, but that reason isn't in the closed post notice, and it's not obvious to the OP that it's the reason 5 people chose to close-vote their question.
 
7:23 AM
@jscs Don't forget that they're going to be rolling out the "new improved" stuff for bug reports (and various other functions that they're removing from MSE) shortly. IIRC, they said that'd start happening early 2020.
 
@PM2Ring Custom close reasons have never been shown in "closed" banners.
 
what the everloving *** is going on
 
@CodyGray Oh, ok. I must've imagined it. :)
 
@PM2Ring Yeah... Too much risk in doing that. You don't want some random person's typed-out gibberish to start appearing as if it's an official message from the site.
@Magisch Rhetorical? Or do you need an actual summary?
 
@CodyGray actual summary pls
I saw a thread about shog no longer working there, and maybe it's my pessimism speaking but jesus christ
 
7:26 AM
SE fired Shog and Robert Cartaino to ensure that the community has a seat at the table
 
This summarizes it pretty well, with the disclaimer that I wrote 90% of it.
But yeah, "jesus christ" is an appropriate reaction. Mine was much more emphatic when I heard the news several hours ago.
 
they what!
they WHAT!
@CodyGray jesus christ is the highly censored version because my actual reaction my coworkers just got to listen to was highly inappropriate to write down
 
My coworker was quite puzzled this morning.
He assumed it was a stupid email from our own management. But no, not in this case.
We appreciate your self-censorship
 
time to really get that alternative going eh, doesn't seem like there's a thing left to hold on to here
 
But will they give us a seat at the table?
I've given up a lot for that, so I think I intend to receive it.
 
7:31 AM
@Magisch From meta.stackexchange.com/a/342045/334566 "We’re seeking to align the company so that it can continue growing in 2020 and we continue to be committed in investing in the community and ensuring that it has a seat at the table as we keep moving forward. These changes are a part of that process."
 
i'll go ahead and restrict myself from answering or commenting on any of these threads because every single thing I want to say right now will get me suspended
 
heh
I still haven't been able to string together the words needed to wish Shog the best.
 
@CodyGray I'm guessing a random generator right now could do better than most of us...
 
Oh my! Whatever happened to the cute, red bird, @Tinkeringbell?
 
@CodyGray It finally was too red, even for me.
 
7:39 AM
You decided this when you realigned your profile page so that it could continue growing in 2020?
 
I'm reminded of the Monty Python Happy Valley sketch.
... all his subjects flourished and were happy, and there were no discontents or grumblers, because wise King Otto had had them all put to death along with the trade union leaders many years before. And all the good happy folk of Happy Valley sang and danced all day long. And anyone who was for any reason miserable or unhappy or who had any difficult personal problems was prosecuted under the 'Happiness Act'.
 
@Tink what?! I can't recognize you now! :(
 
@CodyGray I don't think my profile page needs much growing. We'll see.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I haven't changed my name...
 
Nobody reads anything. All we do is look at pictures.
 
@Tinkeringbell I look on the avatar first
 
7:41 AM
I see on your Twitter that I can get money by becoming your friend? This intrigues me.
 
@CodyGray urgh... you don't read! :P
 
Nobody does
 
I got at least three different cases of "legit" people who tried to befriend me via private messages, then after week or two, asked for money in different ways.
 
I just chuckled, because it's like those signs you see up in restaurants, bars, etc. Really odd things, like, "Do not put your shoes on the counter". Things that could only have been posted in response to an unusually frequent occurrence of these odd events.
 
One wanted money so he can become a soccer player.... another wanted money for Syria (I shared that one here)... and more. It's just annoying.
 
7:43 AM
Was that a Joel Spolsky blog that discussed that? I know he had one about the Options dialog being a summary of all the internal wars/discussions between the devs.
This just in: Twitter is annoying.
 
And needless to say, once I refused to give money, they were gone, one blocked me, didn't check the others.
 
@CodyGray Depends on what Twitter is focused on doing on any particular moment, but yes ;)
 
@CodyGray or "don't pee on electric fence"? :P
 
Nah, that's a sign you don't put up.
You just hide and watch.
 
Twitter is either a inconsequential social media thing that tries to steal your time or a black vortex where goodwill and discourse goes to be annihilated and from whence it can never emerge, depending on the day and your timeline
 
@Tinkeringbell For me, it isn't what Twitter is doing that's annoying, but rather what the people on Twitter are doing that's annoying.
 
@Magisch Still better than Facebook, IMO
 
@CodyGray Oh, yes... That's what I meant with Twitter too ;)
 
yeah, but that's an incredibly low bar
 
7:46 AM
@Cody what's your Twitter? Can't find you.... :(
 
I don't have a Twitter
Or a Facebook
I did sign up with this one service that used to be cool
 
I would totally follow Cody on twitter. Shame.
 
@CodyGray whaaaaat
@MeganRisdal same. Oh, hey! :)
 
Haha
 
7:48 AM
How are you doing? @Megan
 
Can't complain
 
We heard earlier she's vacationing in Hawaii, so better than all of us.
 
Can't you bring @Shog to work in your company?
 
Shog's gotten like 900 job offers via Twitter since he posted that early-morning lament.
 
@ert that sucks :(
@CodyGray as expected, and as he totally deserves, yeah. :)
 
7:50 AM
I hope he still remembers how to be a programmer
He's been babysitting adults for too many years
 
I wish. I'd work w/ him again in a heartbeat and Kaggle would be a great fit for him IMO (slightly biased). Though sadly my team isn't hiring AFAIK. :( I'm on vacation til next week, so if he isn't spoken for by then I'll ask around.
 
@CodyGray that's frankly harder
 
Absolutely! But completely different than babysitting machines.
 
@CodyGray Programming on a team is like babysitting other adults.
 
@CodyGray sure he is, he kept writing scripts and tools to help him in his daily tasks on SE.
@Tinkeringbell at least no need to change diapers. :D
 
7:54 AM
@CodyGray actually I suspect being a CM here from the old days gives some unique experiences
Also I seem to recall Shog was one of the few CMs with direct db and code access
 
Probably Tim got those too, yeah.
 
Well, not many CMs left
 
Yup, he was given database access. I'm sure he saw the source code, but I'm not sure he had check-in privileges. Certainly not in the later days.
 
I think it'd be hard for Shog to get a plain coding job. Anyone employing him will want to utilize his awesome communication skills.
 
@Cody example of what I talk about:
Mar 8 '17 at 3:57, by Shog9
I've accomplished more in an afternoon with a script or a few minutes and a regex.
 
7:57 AM
I'm familiar
 
@PM2Ring quite.
 
Writing a few one-off scripts and slinging a few regexes isn't quite the same as maintaining a production codebase, though.
But hopefully it's like riding a bike.
 
Thought I always felt that the way community was done here, as an integral part of how the network was built up was unique
 
@PM2Ring Yeah...I have the same problem. I'm actually good at public speaking, and so companies always want me to do presentations and stuff when I really just want to be writing code.
@JourneymanGeek That was all thanks to Jeff Atwood
 
Though the way discourse is structured means it's less obvious there
 
Yap
 
@CodyGray I still have those training-wheels on ...
 
@CodyGray well in his tweet Shog presented his skills as programmer first, not his CM skills.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard harder to sell. Programming has more marketability
 
8:01 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard He knows it's going to mess him up, having been a CM for so long, so it makes sense to emphasize his programming skills. It's something he cautioned me about a while back when I was considering applying for a job at SO. That was...actually not that long ago, but seems like forever.
 
JAD
hmm, that was quite a bit of transcript to come back to in the morning
 
@CodyGray oh, you switched jobs? Where you landed then?
@JAD like a Tsunami? ;)
!!/coffee JAD
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I was previously unemployed. I have a job now. Been working there just slightly over 2 years now. But I absolutely hate it, and I'm looking for other opportunities.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of Affogato for @JAD
 
JAD
@ShadowTheBurningWizard like a coursing river
 
8:03 AM
It's my fault. I talk a lot. Even though I don't chat much. PARADOX!
 
@CodyGray ouch. Why hate it? Job itself, or the people?
 
@CodyGray a year and a half ago, kinda feels like an eternity
 
@CodyGray I would really love to see you stick around here! :)
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard People. Management in particular. The job itself is fine.
I started off doing embedded software development. Now I've taken over basically all other functions, including hardware design. It's been quite a learning experience, but the stress level is just ridiculously high, and we are way too dysfunctional.
 
@CodyGray oh... reminds me of amdocs... management there sucks big time too. No idea how that company survives.
It's rotten from the inside.
 
8:05 AM
Yup, same. Our top management are the owners, and it's a small company, so... Plenty of ways for that to go wrong.
 
@CodyGray kinda how I feel about my job. Just that the stuff I want to do seems out of reach, or getting ruined
 
@CodyGray I think we can all sing a tale of companies surviving despite their management, not because of it
 
@CodyGray yeah, can understand. But you keep going, for now?
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I do... I am quite persistent.
Hoping that putting in my time will make it easier to go elsewhere and actually be happy later down the road.
I don't have a CS degree, so that makes it difficult to get hired without having several years of experience. I didn't have any going into this job.
So I appreciate the opportunity very much.
Even though I am now ironically running the show. Responsible for 10 projects, designing/developing 3 new products. Kinda ridiculous for someone that other HR departments wouldn't even give the time of day.
 
@CodyGray nice. Wait, something doesn't fit in. So you were a freelancer before that job?
 
8:09 AM
Nah. Worked in other industries.
 
oh.... which?
 
Taught myself programming, largely assisted by Stack Overflow.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Taught high school for several years.
I'm not that old
 
I didn't know that @CodyGray. Very cool.
 
Most people are shocked to hear I'm younger than 60. :-)
 
(Not that you're not old. Your career trajectory.)
 
8:12 AM
Oh yeah, my career trajectory is crazy
 
@Cody I always considered you to be 30-40
 
Barely 30! Actually...will be 31 in a few months. But I'd still say that's barely 30.
 
I'm 36 😁
 
What did you teach? @Cody
 
8:13 AM
I dropped out of college to teach, so I didn't actually graduate with a degree myself until I was quite a bit older.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard History. Also coached the debate team, which was the primary reason why I was doing it in the first place.
It's crazy to me to think that some people have their lives/careers actually planned out.
 
History is a cool subject to teach (says the archaeology major)
 
It's absolutely one of the best.
 
@CodyGray nice!
 
You literally just get to tell stories. But what I especially loved was teaching people how to think.
 
Writing history book about Stack Exchange should be... interesting. ;)
 
8:15 AM
God, I've been here long enough, haven't I?
 
@CodyGray No! Stay! Please!
:P
 
I mean to write a history book
 
I still feel like we lost a lot with the Great Meta Schism.
 
Still losing, it's ongoing.
I just wonder... who's next? What's the next bad move?
 
8:17 AM
Yeah. I don't even have time to keep up with MSE. I have plenty on my plate with MSO.
I honestly try to read everything that gets posted there. It's crazy.
 
Not much on MSE
 
/me looks in
 
The next bad move is shutting down meta
Mark my words
Feel free to interrupt me, @djsmiley2kindarkness
 
!!/tea djsmiley
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of earl grey tea for @djsmiley
 
8:18 AM
/me wibbles
sanity restored, tho I kind of wish it wasnt'
 
@CodyGray hey, that's my dark prophecy! ;)
 
@CodyGray As in making it read-only. I honestly wouldn't be surprised.
 
Oct 12 '19 at 8:17, by Shadow
@Aza when too many people take part, the only option is shutting down the place.
 
I don't know if it'll be made read-only or just removed entirely.
But it doesn't really matter.
 
But Area 51 is first, now without moderation at all, it's a sure thing it's going to be shut down.
 
8:20 AM
@Mithical me neither...what I wonder is where will people decide to take their interventions then
 
The damage was done once the management started sticking their fingers in their ears and not paying attention to Meta.
 
@CodyGray I'm still not convinced that they'll completely remove Meta SE. They'll just move most of its functionality to new tools.
 
Or become a chaos, as proposals won't be closed.
 
At this point, it's all just symbolism. Nobody is reading or caring about what gets posted there.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard It was effectively shut down when the new requirements for a site went into effect.
 
8:21 AM
@CodyGray @Yaakov reads and cares, for what it's worth, but he's only a single developer. :(
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard it's not going to become chaos as long as they have moderators. And I don't think they're going to strip all the moderators. Why? Just shut it down.
 
@CodyGray There's too much historical reference on them... documentation... plus the internal chats hosted on chat.Meta.SE.
 
@CodyGray there are actual moderators there?? Never checked, actually. Assumed it's all Robert.
 
Do you see any evidence that anyone cares about historical references or documentation? I'm confident they can find a way to move their chat server.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard On Meta?
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard no there are no A51 mods
 
8:22 AM
@CodyGray Area51
 
I have no earthly clue what's happened with Area 51. I haven't paid attention to that in years.
 
MSE is well moderated these days.
Some would say too well....
 
A bit too moderated for my taste...
Yeah
 
hehe
Great minds.... ;)
 
Deletion of posts and comments is out of control on MSE.
It's turned into outright censorship.
 
8:23 AM
cough mods are here
 
> "Great minds think alike, but fools rarely differ."
 
Not too concerned about that. I think they all know my opinions on the matter.
 
That's the full quote ;)
 
@Mithical so wise!
 
I'd also like to point out that I'm not just armchair moderating. I've got plenty of experience moderating a Meta site. :-)
I handle the vast majority of flags and other moderation work on MSO.
We have Bhargav Rao for the main site. :-)
 
8:25 AM
@CodyGray I see it as turning off the fire by taking out the burning material instead of using water.
It's legit, even if extreme.
 
Sometimes, it's more effective to just let it smolder.
Unless it's totally out of control, of course.
 
hmm
MSE did smolder for a long time.
 
MSE lately has looked a bit like Australia.
 
When people are really upset, and when they have good reason to be, trying to put out the fire just isn't going to work.
 
@CodyGray nice... @BhargavRao is awesome, no doubt. :)
 
JAD
8:27 AM
@CodyGray but in this analogy, the mods don't have access to water, only SE can provide that, so lacking anything else to fight the fire with...
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard +1
And I am not the only one
 
@JAD Deletion doesn't fight fires. It just hides the discontent from the people who can actually respond to it.
 
@YaakovEllis you're the vocal one. :)
 
JAD
And those that would have to respond to the fires, see threads lit up, point at meta as a whole and conclude it's salvageable as a whole
 
I mean, at some point you have to use your brain. Are all these people just jerks, or is there something fundamentally wrong here
 
JAD
8:30 AM
I mean, it's still on fire. Do the mods have to sit twiddling thumbs waiting for SE to start caring?
 
I don't know how to make people start caring.
 
JAD
which kinda is the point :>
 
We had someone who cared more than was good for him.
We don't have that person anymore.
 
@CodyGray Of course there is something fundamentally wrong. But if you can't fix it yourself, at least don't let it make the whole site become chaos.
 
@CodyGray Over, I don't know
 
8:32 AM
In the vain chance MSE will stay, at least it should be kept clean, in some level.
 
but it as due to extraordinary situations. That's to say, people kept doing boneheaded things on all sides
unfortunately that's a trend that seems to continue
 
I can't give any details about anything. So don't ask. But I can say that lots of people care very much. Even the people who you assume don't care actually do really care.
 
@YaakovEllis Its always harder for those who remain ><
 
The question is, @YaakovEllis, what do they care about?
It isn't enough simply to "care". We all care about something; that's what makes us human. What makes us distinct is what we choose to care about, and how we choose to manifest that caring.
 
@CodyGray I'm not sure its a question that anyone can answer
 
8:34 AM
@YaakovEllis thanks. I just wish this was translated to actions.
 
and if the people who care have the ability to effect changes in course
 
@JourneymanGeek I can answer for myself. Each can answer for themselves. That's how this works.
 
@CodyGray practically though, as volunteers and "free agents" - we have a lot more leeway
the one thing that has kept me in check all along is pretty much the few people I know care
 
Yeah, that helps. The people from whom you see concrete action in the right direction.
Its new-found absence is one of my major concerns at this point.
 
@JourneymanGeek where are they now? there's maybe catija and two more cm's left, the others are just gone
I'm rapidly running out of people I trust in the company
 
8:40 AM
@Magisch I'd consider@YaakovEllis one of the good ones if not someone I know well :D
 
@Magisch there are 8 CM's
 
(Don't let it get to your head)
@ShadowTheBurningWizard eh, not really
 
Some for the localized SO sites
@JourneymanGeek I counted
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard there's no 'local' CMs any more
we're down to Nicholas
Juan's kinda the CM Manager
 
What are "local" CMs?
 
8:41 AM
@CodyGray originally each non english SO site had a designated CM who knew the language
 
Oh, right. Okay.
 
Jmac did JA.SO, Jnat did PT and so on
but they got rolled into the main team or left
 
Yeah, I suspect those will be shutting down
 
Nicolas manages all the international sites now.
 
I get the impression Abby is still in the company but she's not a CM
 
8:42 AM
@JourneymanGeek confirmed
 
"demoted to management"
 
Still haven't gotten an answer on this, which raises a lot of questions.
 
then Grace and Animuson are community support, which isn't a frontline CM role either
though that gets swapped out periodically
 
In terms of people who have my nearly blind trust because I know they "get" it... I count maybe 1.5 on that list.
 
8:44 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Of those, hairboat doesn't really count anymore. Tim manages the team (along with Sara and Stephanie Cantor IIRC?), Nicolas is in charge of the international sites...
 
of all those I know tim, jon, jnat and catija
 
@YaakovEllis simple thing is ? When Tim was director of community - she was supposed to be his understudy
then... silence
 
the others are probably fine people but I dont see them often
 
Yeah, this is curious to me, too, @Magisch. How are these CMs nearly invisible to us? And not just us, but someone who moderates the largest site on the network.
 
So I figured some nebulous internal reconfiguration. In a way, good for her, its probably safer.
 
8:45 AM
@YaakovEllis so should we remove her from the list?
 
@CodyGray cause they end up doing more back end stuff, and the team's a lot smaller than it was for a bigger network
 
I get that developers and management is busy. It's not their job to interact with moderators. But I should feel like I know all the CMs as well as I felt like I knew Shog and a handful of the others.
 
Which I will add, is something we have been complaining about.
 
@JourneymanGeek nothing nebulous. It is just that most personnel changes and position changes are private.
 
@CodyGray I gotta be honest I'm extremely bitter they let go shog and robert
 
8:46 AM
@YaakovEllis right.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard yes, that is safe to do
 
@Magisch You aren't alone.
 
letting go CMs feels like the worst move they could possibly make right now
 
@Magisch We all are
 
@YaakovEllis you probably know your company better than I do :D
But at this point, I'm probably going to get snarkier than you deserve for something that probably blindsided y'all as much as us
 
8:47 AM
@Mithical so what happens now? Do we have another 3 months of meta yule-logging or ...
 
@YaakovEllis done.
 
Is this where we're forced to admit that outrage is unproductive and changes nothing?
 
@Magisch I suspect thats roughly the goal
 
This one is easier to draw that conclusion about. At least Monica wanted to be reinstated.
Shog isn't coming back.
 
@CodyGray she did?? I read she didn't want.
 
8:48 AM
Unless he runs for moderator on SO, which I personally think would be wonderful, but almost entirely unrelated.
 
@Magisch I'll settle for 1, please.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard she wanted to be reinstated without conditions.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Originally. Things have changed now after the "settlement" or whatever the heck.
 
@JourneymanGeek oh, missed that. What are the conditions?
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Going through the new reinstatement process...
 
8:49 AM
@CodyGray would probably the first time a mod candidate cracks a supermajority before any eliminations
 
Perhaps not being maligned as a bigot?
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard going through the reinstatement process
 
Speaking of, can either of you MSE mods confirm that Robert Harvey wanted reinstated to SO?
 
@CodyGray nope
 
@Tinkeringbell I thought it's just some bureaucratic thing so didn't delve into it.... TL;DR about that process? What it actually means?
 
8:50 AM
didn't hear anything about it
 
This was recently brought to my attention, but I had missed that discussion.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard star chamber esque process that can be anonymously blocked by senior management or can come with patronizing extra requirements
 
The claim was that he couldn't be reinstated because he was suspended on MSE
 
MSE != SO/MSO
 
@CodyGray which is roughly how the rules work
I suspect
 
8:51 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Heh. I am...quite aware. :-)
 
@CodyGray He said he did, but they are applying the 1 year rule to reinstatements too, so robert might not be able to begin the process until 2022
 
Yes, I know that's how the reinstatement procedure works.
 
oh... the rule is "was not suspended on any site in the last year"?
 
@CodyGray I'll need to check the flowchart
question is, what happens if I get suspended on another site while a mod?
Not that that's likely to happen
 
I assume then if you resign you can't get back in until a year after
 
8:52 AM
I can make that happen
 
I would assume for good cause :D
 
That's not really how we do things here
 
@Magisch hmm... well... still above my head, but more clear, thanks.
@Magisch @Journeyman proved it wrong
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I was not suspended though
 
8:53 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard monica has absolutely no reason to believe they'd be fair to her, so I can completly understand not going through it
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard If you have some time.
 
@CodyGray thanks
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I quit cause I was unhappy with the monica situation but felt the adults would sort it out
 
thats right we never got a followup on that either possibly because they never intended to make any changes to it post-release
 
Of course no changes were planned.
They ran it by the moderators, too. We pointed out innumerable issues, but crickets.
Management is happy with it, so ship it.
On a Friday.
It was a CYA strategy, not any real attempt at anything.
 
8:54 AM
i hate the disingenous corporate drivel. If you don't care about what we think on certain issues, don't pretend otherwise. It's hella patronizing
 
"Oh, look, we have a reinstatement procedure. With Flowcharts(TM)!"
 
@Magisch on which thing?
 
@Magisch well - some staff are honest that they don't consider us the community
 
@YaakovEllis the reinstatement procedure feedback post
 
Not very popular here
 
8:55 AM
there are several dozen answers pointing out improvements and issues, and I'd assume that if you're gonna make people work hard on that, we'd at least get an executive summary of feedback recieved and some response to it
 
To be fair, which they don't deserve, it's hard for the staff to respond to the overarching issue raised in objection to the reinstatement policy, which is that after the Monica incident, how are we supposed to trust them?
2
 
Who needs a few hundred die hard folks who do most of the things that keep the site from turning into yahoo answers when you have 11 million developers?
 
But there are still some minor issues raised that could be addressed.
 
doesn't have to be a change to the procedure even, but some acknowledgement and analysis that shows all this work didn't just go down a black hole into the bin
 
I'll see what I can do in getting and answer
 
8:56 AM
@JourneymanGeek 11 million developers who want a help desk
Except that'll last 6-8 weeks before they discover that the answers they get are crap
 
@YaakovEllis if you haven't seen it already, there's probably a lot of context on the mod team over that.
@CodyGray I think the idea is no one cares as long as they can ask questions
which is a concept that hurts my brain
questions have no value without answers.
But hey, 11 million devs
 
No, I mean, that's just completely stupid.
You can't even show ads to visitors if no one visits because the content is crap.
 
@YaakovEllis I appreciate you taking the time and weathering the heat that comes out in our frustration in here and still responding with compassion and care. It means a lot in these times.
6
 
Yahoo Answers isn't making millions off of ads.
 
@CodyGray uhm, I don't think SE is either
 
8:58 AM
Of course not
 
@Magisch you're welcome
 
My point was more, if their ultimate goal is Yahoo Answers, then even that's not a goal.
 
@CodyGray the ultimate goal is either to IPO or to sell out
 
I have an inkling most of yahoo answers' revenue is native advertising
e.g paid spam
 
I'm just confused how recent events fit in there
 
8:59 AM
It ruins either one of those options
 

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