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00:00 - 21:0021:00 - 00:00

9:00 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You are.
@Catija I'm wrong?
@rene Bro. That makes like the 5th deleted message at MSE for me. Just sayin'...
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Yes. I only deleted my own.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Yes. It was a group effort.
We were like deletion ninjas.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog yes, I know what I'm asking for.
9:01 PM
@TravisJ That doesn't touch the issue of rep, because that's on a per-site meta.
Votes aren't based on rep. Voting on MSE versus child metas is very similar.
I think that MSE should be a place where (well-thought out, well-reasoned) ideas should flow freely, and users shouldn't be actively economically disincentivized to post ideas that the community might disagree with, and economically incentivized to post ideas that they know the community would agree with.
@rene Ah, yes, as an RO you can see that all the messages were self-deleted.
It is; downvotes don't economically impact anyone; disagreement/agreement is a measurement of productivity.
Which is to say, it is not productive to constantly produce requests for the team to do work that no one agrees with.
If that means you suffer downvotes, then so be it. Create more useful requests, these people are busy with important work.
@TravisJ [creates request with lots of reasoning that thinks others would agree with] [turns out others don't agree with it, receives downvotes, loses rep]
Then you didn't do enough research.
Create a neutral discussion on the topic to see if the community outlook aligns with yours prior to posting an actual feature request.
1. Identify a problem.
2. Discuss problem with community.
3. Assess feedback, and if it lines up with the direction you were thinking.
4. Post feature-request in line with feedback, sometimes in a different direction than you considered.
9:10 PM
@TravisJ Here's an example of such a discussion: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/311700/…. It's received a ton of downvotes. Can you please tell me where the research is lacking?
The thing that amplifies the "popularity contest" feel is this: if you have a request that's received downvotes that you've lost rep for, you can either leave the request up, or recant your idea and get the rep back.
There are thee main issues with that question. 1) It was written as a feature request at first (I know you edited it out, but that doesn't change the tone; 2) It is super biased in its approach and not written from a neutral standpoint; 3) There is a false premise written all over that question which is: "50 reputation for comments is a problem".
I have seen dozens of flavors of that same exact post as well.
Hhh... the first moment you returned to this room was asking why you got downvoted (again), and debating this same "I value my MSE rep" (again)?... sorry, I have to really ignore you this time. FYI.
It doesn't really bring forth a solution.
short of just removing/lessening the requirement with no other changes
@KevinB There's a deleted answer with a proposed solution. They tried to post that in the question but kept tripping an anti-spam filter.
I would be for lessening it to 20, the same amount of rep required to enter a chat room
9:19 PM
@Catija Journeyman Geek's last kick just before I was suspended caused me to get permanently banned from creating new rooms and inviting users to existing rooms. Since I didn't abuse those privileges, is there a chance that they can be reinstated?
Hi @bjb568 :)
@TravisJ Here's one of my attempts at such a discussion: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/315246/…
I have to admit, I can't understand why this is getting downvoted… the prevalence of mis-informed reopen reviews seems impossible to deny for anyone who's looked through more than a few review results. Maybe there are some lucky sites that don't suffer this? Don't know which those might be, though. — Nathan Tuggy Sep 9 at 2:54
And it's at +6/-7, a net of 16 rep.
Kicked Sonic for pinging SE stafff
Okay, well, he left, but still finishing my thought real quick.
Seems reasonable considering past history.
> Ideally, I'd request that the diff view only be shown if the task was created as a result of an edit within five days, and not show it if the task was created by an external reopen vote, but I see that as being potentially controversial.
This is no longer neutral, and also admits to controversy, which is then reflected in the vote count! Even still, the question is faring reasonably.
9:23 PM
@rene How am I supposed to request that my room creation privileges be restored? An SE staff member is needed there.
use email
Or just ask without pinging.
or at a minimum not from this room
@rene So, the rule is, if I ping a staff member, I'll be kicked, regardless of what I ping them for?
at my discretion, yes
that can't be a new rule for you, right?
9:25 PM
@rene Meaning, even if it's a legitimate matter, where a normal user would ping a staff member?
with your track record, yes.
@rene If I cannot ping staff members at all, how am I supposed to demonstrate that I would only ping them in circumstances a normal user would?
You can't?
@rene So I guess this unofficial ban is permanent?
I'd like to stop receiving special treatment.
I don't think that is an option yet based on what just happened.
I'll re-evaluate over time.
9:30 PM
@rene So if, hypothetically, Catija were to say that she's OK with being pinged here, would you still do it?
Would it still make you uncomfortable?
To be fair, you are already receiving a decent amount of special treatment by asking staff members for their individual review of issues that they would have otherwise probably not reviewed.
@TravisJ When did I do that just now? I just asked here generally, expecting input from community members here. Catija, the only staff member here, just happened to also respond.
I did not specifically seek out Catija's review of it.
Regardless of your objection, my point stands.
@TravisJ Can you please quote the recent message where I "asked a staff member for their individual review"?
oh lord
9:34 PM
@TravisJ Are you referring to the request to have my room creation privileges reinstated?
I'm referring to this entire conversation
@AdamLear Not to you, message edited
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog this room is no-one's personal access to staff. You have used that privilege beyond what most of us here deemed reasonable. If I'm uncomfortable with it or not is not really relevant but I think for the overall atmosphere in this room I still might do that, yes. Just refrain from pinging staff. It is not that hard.
I just come here for the cats and memes
9:41 PM
@Taryn yaas
putting down the popcorn
picks up smoking
@rene I come here for the one-on-one chats with staff members. Maybe I guess we should have another room where users can chat one-on-one with staff members.
Bonsai Kitten was a hoax website that claimed to provide instructions on how to grow a kitten in a jar, so as to mold the bones of the kitten into the shape of the jar as the cat grows, much like how a bonsai plant is shaped. It was made by an MIT university student going by the alias of Dr. Michael Wong Chang. The website generated furor after members of the public complained to animal rights organizations. The Michigan Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (MSPCA) stated that "while the site's content may be faked, the issue it is campaigning for may create violence towards animals...
throwing all @rene's cigarettes into @Smokey's spam pool
9:44 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog sure.
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Smoke! BRB...
I... don't think we're generally in a position where we need to give a specific user persistent access to us one-on-one where we're obligated to respond.
whether it's this room or another room, your core premise where you need direct access to staff is flawed
Anyway, since my history here does not include abusing invites or room creation, is there a chance that those privileges can be reinstated?
9:47 PM
Probably. tbh I don't know off the top of my head why or how they'd be revoked
Well I see people creating one-on-one rooms with staff, I did it recently with Shog. The invited staff member doesn't have to react of course but they usually does. Main point is to not nag them. @Sonic
chat's a mystery
a blackhole
wrapped in an enigma
that is staring into the abyss
9:48 PM
deep ...
@AdamLear If an RO kicks a user for the third time, resulting in a 30-minute kick. It's a preventative measure intended to stop the kicked user from inviting others to other rooms while the kick is in place. But it's not reinstated after the kick expires; only a mod can reinstate it.
MSE chat: where privileges are a mystery bigger than the universe
A collective sigh takes over the room
9:50 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog sounds like a bug. Waaaaaaay too much power for RO if it's not.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You created a room a couple of weeks ago just to invite me into a room that I'd already been invited into but hadn't cleared the invites for.
@rene The massive black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
@Catija The only other way to invite you there was to ping you in this room, and for obvious reasons I didn't want to do that.
you realize that still pings the person you invite, right?
9:52 PM
33% and dropping... Better charge. 🔋
27 mins ago, by rene
or at a minimum not from this room
According to the rules set by the ROs here, I can't ping from this room. That ping isn't from this room.
18 mins ago, by Adam Lear
oh lord
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog creating a new room just to ping someone because you can't do it here is the same as creating new account to dodge question ban. Aka don't do it.
Since my history here doesn't include a long and persistent pattern of abusing invites or room creation here, I think those privileges should be reinstated.
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard that emoji doesn't work for my old pc
9:53 PM
You're splitting hairs. The core of the rule is "stop pinging staff for every thing that you think is urgent"
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog And by the same token, only being allowed to invite someone to a room once exists for a reason...
@KevinB weird! It is shower head emoji. And you see this one? 🛁
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard ooh, it was a shower I head... I thought it was... nevermind.
@Catija If I invited you a long time ago, you didn't handle it at the time, and want to do so again, how can I?
@TravisJ now I do mind.... What did you think it is? ;-)
9:56 PM
The past invite can be months earlier and I can't invite.
Sep 6 at 9:00, by Somewhat
--> Sonic's Den
and context
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You can't, with the current chat implementation. Life's tough like that.
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard At first it looked related to the previous emoji
nope, can't see that one either
@AdamLear I'd propose that invites expire after 2-3 weeks; would that be positively received or negatively received?
no idea
10:00 PM
🍿 i can't even see popcorn
in general... I feel like invites should eventually expire or we should give better indication that an invite is still pending. I'd have to think more carefully about the implication of auto-expiry
On that note, gotta run. Later all :wave:
@AdamLear Also, a pending invite prevents other users from inviting as well.
@Sonic look... I can't go too deep into it. But if you value my opinion and advise, just accept that you can't invite certain staff members to rooms anymore. You can probably still invite others and create new rooms. But if you see you can't do something or told to not do something, trying to find ways around it usually gets things worse.
@AdamLear o/
As a condition of those privileges being reinstated, I agree not to invite staff members to existing rooms unless absolutely necessary. Per the advice above, I may still create new one-on-one rooms, which I understand staff members do not have the obligation to respond in. If I do keep using these privileges in a manner where the community doesn't like it, feel free to kick me three times in a row and those privileges will be gone again.
10:03 PM
@TravisJ well it is. Shower and toilets often goes together... :)
It's worth noting that I was communicating with Catija in Sonic's Den as a normal community member before she was hired by SE.
@Catija I know I did that to work around those limitations. That said, with those conditions, do you agree to reinstate my room creation and invite privileges?
@TravisJ I flagged it as rude, I wait a bit to see it attracts some more votes and then I'll move it.
I mean, it is happy hour, amirite? :P
@rene I generally just spam flag even rude posts, using the button in metasmoke. Is that bad?
@TravisJ yeah that typo is really glaring!
Grammar too, not 100% sure though. :P
10:11 PM
@TravisJ in 49 minutes ... hold your breath ...
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I dunno
@rene IIRC spam flags cause posts to become audits, whereas if there are only rude flags they don't, but most sites don't have audits.
I flag what I think it is. That makes my life easier
@rene Happy hour is a state of being
of being ... what?
<s>strike</s> ~strike~ (testing chat format)
10:15 PM
Sandbox on the Tavern
@rene happy?
that is an option, yes
State of being is an expression essentially meaning that is where you exist.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You're an idiot didn't know that? ;-) :D
10:18 PM
I Happy Hour, therefore I am.
My goals with this room thus far have been: 1. to be able to talk to staff members and obtain more information on the various intricacies of the software that powers SE sites 2. to be able to turn off my neurotypical emulator and talk to people who are also interested in SE, my autistic "special interest", and exchange information at length about SE. I understand I can't meet the first goal here, but is my second goal out of alignment with this room?
I thought all blue people in this room were SE emps?
Sorry, not very happy hourish of me.. yarrrrr
(cc @rene, see my message above)
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It depends on how you approach that and if you are capable on responding to feedback and advice to knock it off. Beyond that, most of info on SE is found on meta so that will not be the primary topic of the chatter here.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm not dead yet
10:23 PM
@rene Not all info, however. There are still quite a few missing gaps. For instance, see the proposed FAQ on merging questions.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog and don't make this mistake to switch from pinging SE staff to pinging me
@rene Do you recall the primary reason for my pinging staff members? Does that reason exist with normal community members?
tl;dr, no it doesn't, so I won't ping you.
The only reason I pinged you above is because you were involved.
You can try to bring up something for discussion but knock it off if regulars here tell you so. Under that condition you can work on your goal.
Perhaps it would help if this room had an accurate a specific room topic.
It never had.
10:29 PM
red tags, that's a bit flash
Still sad about <blink> not working ...
@rene Always been an IE user.
I mean, there is a topic though, really. It's a Tavern.
Supposed to be a safe space for relaxing.
10:31 PM
sounds like a place for drinking
Cat memes. I cannot stress this enough. Cat. Memes.
@PaulWhite Finally someone gets it.
drinking sound good
anyway idk I guess I expected the most active room on chat.meta to be primarily about meta.se
For me, relaxing has been to turn off my emulator. It's an extreme resource hog for me. It's like the System Idle Process (in Windows Task Manager).
10:33 PM
Windows Task Manager lies
@PaulWhite Sometimes it is. Especially on like, a Tuesday, when a feature gets released or a blog is posted, etc. But often, on down days, and mostly Fridays, and especially Happy Hour, it is primarily just a place to kind of wind down.
I haven't cared much about days of the week here.
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle
Also, I've always thought that being there for users who want to chat one on one is part of staff members' professional obligation, and that staff members are super interested in SE and is their form of relaxation (it isn't).
Aside from the fact that SE staff is super interested in SE, I would just internalize the rest of that as being incorrect.
10:40 PM
What I mean is, staff members don't all have "special interests" in SE just like me. For them, it's their work, not their play.
Whereas for me, SE is my play.
Good morning
01:43 is morning
wrong timezone
Working just fine!
10:48 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog incorrect.
In a sense - it just like constantly bugging me on root access cause you can't wait for a flag or meta answer
Or walking into another class and yelling questions at a teacher
11:08 PM
4 messages moved to Chimney
Critically many aspects of your behavior has made the tavern a much less .. pleasant place and well that is the problem
Consider this - the social mechanics of a site are just as important as the internal mechanics. You're going to have a lot more luck getting your answers if people think well of you
Other than the occasional 'wait, they quietly fixed that FR I made 3 years ago' I've found that the 'social capital' I've built up with people across the network helps me get answers quicker or even influence decisions in small ways.
@JourneymanGeek I didn't know your opinion of me was that low...
:-) ;-)
@Fabby it would fit under a limbo bar :p
Not as bad as that erstaz blink tag tho
@JourneymanGeek :D :D :D
@JourneymanGeek If he would have converted that to this it wouldn't have been so bad though (Hint! Hint! @ShadowtheWelcomingWizard )
Now what would be totally evil would be slightly randomish blink times
11:20 PM
@JourneymanGeek :D :D :D You're even more evil than Shadow!
This message contributes to moving the <blink> off the visible page.
I use my evil for good. Or something like that
@AaronHall I feel a lot of my motivation is implicit and a lot of what I get out of the network can't really be measured in numbers
11:46 PM
@Fabby now that's quite an achievement! ;)
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Depends on how you look at it!
2 hours ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
My goals with this room thus far have been: 1. to be able to talk to staff members and obtain more information on the various intricacies of the software that powers SE sites 2. to be able to turn off my neurotypical emulator and talk to people who are also interested in SE, my autistic "special interest", and exchange information at length about SE. I understand I can't meet the first goal here, but is my second goal out of alignment with this room?
Well clearly this has not gone well
@JourneymanGeek Can you please answer the question?
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