Tavern on the Meta

Catija

9:00 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You are.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija I'm wrong?

Travis J

@rene Bro. That makes like the 5th deleted message at MSE for me. Just sayin'...

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Yes. I only deleted my own.

Travis J

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Yes. It was a group effort.

We were like deletion ninjas.

rene

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog yes, I know what I'm asking for.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:01 PM

@TravisJ That doesn't touch the issue of rep, because that's on a per-site meta.

Travis J

Votes aren't based on rep. Voting on MSE versus child metas is very similar.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I think that MSE should be a place where (well-thought out, well-reasoned) ideas should flow freely, and users shouldn't be actively economically disincentivized to post ideas that the community might disagree with, and economically incentivized to post ideas that they know the community would agree with.

@rene Ah, yes, as an RO you can see that all the messages were self-deleted.

Travis J

It is; downvotes don't economically impact anyone; disagreement/agreement is a measurement of productivity.

Which is to say, it is not productive to constantly produce requests for the team to do work that no one agrees with.

If that means you suffer downvotes, then so be it. Create more useful requests, these people are busy with important work.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@TravisJ [creates request with lots of reasoning that thinks others would agree with] [turns out others don't agree with it, receives downvotes, loses rep]

Travis J

Then you didn't do enough research.

Create a neutral discussion on the topic to see if the community outlook aligns with yours prior to posting an actual feature request.

1. Identify a problem.
2. Discuss problem with community.
3. Assess feedback, and if it lines up with the direction you were thinking.
4. Post feature-request in line with feedback, sometimes in a different direction than you considered.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:10 PM

@TravisJ Here's an example of such a discussion: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/311700/…. It's received a ton of downvotes. Can you please tell me where the research is lacking?

The thing that amplifies the "popularity contest" feel is this: if you have a request that's received downvotes that you've lost rep for, you can either leave the request up, or recant your idea and get the rep back.

Travis J

There are thee main issues with that question. 1) It was written as a feature request at first (I know you edited it out, but that doesn't change the tone; 2) It is super biased in its approach and not written from a neutral standpoint; 3) There is a false premise written all over that question which is: "50 reputation for comments is a problem".

I have seen dozens of flavors of that same exact post as well.

Somewhat

Hhh... the first moment you returned to this room was asking why you got downvoted (again), and debating this same "I value my MSE rep" (again)?... sorry, I have to really ignore you this time. FYI.

Kevin B

It doesn't really bring forth a solution.

short of just removing/lessening the requirement with no other changes

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@KevinB There's a deleted answer with a proposed solution. They tried to post that in the question but kept tripping an anti-spam filter.

Kevin B

I would be for lessening it to 20, the same amount of rep required to enter a chat room

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:19 PM

@Catija Journeyman Geek's last kick just before I was suspended caused me to get permanently banned from creating new rooms and inviting users to existing rooms. Since I didn't abuse those privileges, is there a chance that they can be reinstated?

Travis J

Hi @bjb568 :)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@TravisJ Here's one of my attempts at such a discussion: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/315246/…

I have to admit, I can't understand why this is getting downvoted… the prevalence of mis-informed reopen reviews seems impossible to deny for anyone who's looked through more than a few review results. Maybe there are some lucky sites that don't suffer this? Don't know which those might be, though. — Nathan Tuggy Sep 9 at 2:54

Travis J

And it's at +6/-7, a net of 16 rep.

rene

Kicked Sonic for pinging SE stafff

Travis J

Okay, well, he left, but still finishing my thought real quick.

Seems reasonable considering past history.

> Ideally, I'd request that the diff view only be shown if the task was created as a result of an edit within five days, and not show it if the task was created by an external reopen vote, but I see that as being potentially controversial.

This is no longer neutral, and also admits to controversy, which is then reflected in the vote count! Even still, the question is faring reasonably.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:23 PM

@rene How am I supposed to request that my room creation privileges be restored? An SE staff member is needed there.

rene

use email

Travis J

Or just ask without pinging.

rene

or at a minimum not from this room

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene So, the rule is, if I ping a staff member, I'll be kicked, regardless of what I ping them for?

rene

at my discretion, yes

that can't be a new rule for you, right?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:25 PM

@rene Meaning, even if it's a legitimate matter, where a normal user would ping a staff member?

rene

with your track record, yes.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene If I cannot ping staff members at all, how am I supposed to demonstrate that I would only ping them in circumstances a normal user would?

rene

You can't?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene So I guess this unofficial ban is permanent?

I'd like to stop receiving special treatment.

rene

I don't think that is an option yet based on what just happened.

I'll re-evaluate over time.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:30 PM

@rene So if, hypothetically, Catija were to say that she's OK with being pinged here, would you still do it?

Would it still make you uncomfortable?

Travis J

To be fair, you are already receiving a decent amount of special treatment by asking staff members for their individual review of issues that they would have otherwise probably not reviewed.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@TravisJ When did I do that just now? I just asked here generally, expecting input from community members here. Catija, the only staff member here, just happened to also respond.

I did not specifically seek out Catija's review of it.

Travis J

Regardless of your objection, my point stands.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@TravisJ Can you please quote the recent message where I "asked a staff member for their individual review"?

Adam Lear

oh lord

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:34 PM

@TravisJ Are you referring to the request to have my room creation privileges reinstated?

Adam Lear

I'm referring to this entire conversation

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@AdamLear Not to you, message edited

rene

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog this room is no-one's personal access to staff. You have used that privilege beyond what most of us here deemed reasonable. If I'm uncomfortable with it or not is not really relevant but I think for the overall atmosphere in this room I still might do that, yes. Just refrain from pinging staff. It is not that hard.

Travis J

I just come here for the cats and memes

Taryn

@TravisJ well, now if that's how you feel

Travis J

9:41 PM

@Taryn yaas

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

putting down the popcorn

rene

picks up smoking

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene I come here for the one-on-one chats with staff members. Maybe I guess we should have another room where users can chat one-on-one with staff members.

Fabby

Bonsai Kitten

Bonsai Kitten was a hoax website that claimed to provide instructions on how to grow a kitten in a jar, so as to mold the bones of the kitten into the shape of the jar as the cat grows, much like how a bonsai plant is shaped. It was made by an MIT university student going by the alias of Dr. Michael Wong Chang. The website generated furor after members of the public complained to animal rights organizations. The Michigan Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (MSPCA) stated that "while the site's content may be faked, the issue it is campaigning for may create violence towards animals...

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

throwing all @rene's cigarettes into @Smokey's spam pool

rene

9:44 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog sure.

Fabby

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Smoke! BRB...

Adam Lear

I... don't think we're generally in a position where we need to give a specific user persistent access to us one-on-one where we're obligated to respond.

Travis J

^

Adam Lear

whether it's this room or another room, your core premise where you need direct access to staff is flawed

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Anyway, since my history here does not include abusing invites or room creation, is there a chance that those privileges can be reinstated?

Adam Lear

9:47 PM

Probably. tbh I don't know off the top of my head why or how they'd be revoked

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

Well I see people creating one-on-one rooms with staff, I did it recently with Shog. The invited staff member doesn't have to react of course but they usually does. Main point is to not nag them. @Sonic

Adam Lear

chat's a mystery

rene

a blackhole

Travis J

wrapped in an enigma

Adam Lear

that is staring into the abyss

Kevin B

9:48 PM

🚽

rene

deep ...

Travis J

tubular

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@AdamLear If an RO kicks a user for the third time, resulting in a 30-minute kick. It's a preventative measure intended to stop the kicked user from inviting others to other rooms while the kick is in place. But it's not reinstated after the kick expires; only a mod can reinstate it.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

MSE chat: where privileges are a mystery bigger than the universe

Travis J

A collective sigh takes over the room

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

9:50 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog sounds like a bug. Waaaaaaay too much power for RO if it's not.

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You created a room a couple of weeks ago just to invite me into a room that I'd already been invited into but hadn't cleared the invites for.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@KevinB 🚿

Fabby

@rene The massive black hole at the center of the Milky Way.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija The only other way to invite you there was to ping you in this room, and for obvious reasons I didn't want to do that.

Adam Lear

you realize that still pings the person you invite, right?

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

9:52 PM

33% and dropping... Better charge. 🔋

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

27 mins ago, by rene

or at a minimum not from this room

According to the rules set by the ROs here, I can't ping from this room. That ping isn't from this room.

Adam Lear

18 mins ago, by Adam Lear

oh lord

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog creating a new room just to ping someone because you can't do it here is the same as creating new account to dodge question ban. Aka don't do it.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Since my history here doesn't include a long and persistent pattern of abusing invites or room creation here, I think those privileges should be reinstated.

Kevin B

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard that emoji doesn't work for my old pc

Adam Lear

9:53 PM

You're splitting hairs. The core of the rule is "stop pinging staff for every thing that you think is urgent"

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog And by the same token, only being allowed to invite someone to a room once exists for a reason...

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@KevinB weird! It is shower head emoji. And you see this one? 🛁

Travis J

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard ooh, it was a shower I head... I thought it was... nevermind.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija If I invited you a long time ago, you didn't handle it at the time, and want to do so again, how can I?

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@TravisJ now I do mind.... What did you think it is? ;-)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:56 PM

The past invite can be months earlier and I can't invite.

Sep 6 at 9:00, by Somewhat

--> Sonic's Den

and context

Adam Lear

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You can't, with the current chat implementation. Life's tough like that.

Travis J

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard At first it looked related to the previous emoji

Kevin B

nope, can't see that one either

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@AdamLear I'd propose that invites expire after 2-3 weeks; would that be positively received or negatively received?

Adam Lear

no idea

Kevin B

10:00 PM

🍿 i can't even see popcorn

Adam Lear

in general... I feel like invites should eventually expire or we should give better indication that an invite is still pending. I'd have to think more carefully about the implication of auto-expiry

On that note, gotta run. Later all :wave:

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@AdamLear Also, a pending invite prevents other users from inviting as well.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@Sonic look... I can't go too deep into it. But if you value my opinion and advise, just accept that you can't invite certain staff members to rooms anymore. You can probably still invite others and create new rooms. But if you see you can't do something or told to not do something, trying to find ways around it usually gets things worse.

Travis J

@AdamLear o/

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

As a condition of those privileges being reinstated, I agree not to invite staff members to existing rooms unless absolutely necessary. Per the advice above, I may still create new one-on-one rooms, which I understand staff members do not have the obligation to respond in. If I do keep using these privileges in a manner where the community doesn't like it, feel free to kick me three times in a row and those privileges will be gone again.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

10:03 PM

@TravisJ well it is. Shower and toilets often goes together... :)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

It's worth noting that I was communicating with Catija in Sonic's Den as a normal community member before she was hired by SE.

@Catija I know I did that to work around those limitations. That said, with those conditions, do you agree to reinstate my room creation and invite privileges?

rene

@TravisJ I flagged it as rude, I wait a bit to see it attracts some more votes and then I'll move it.

Travis J

I mean, it is happy hour, amirite? :P

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene I generally just spam flag even rude posts, using the button in metasmoke. Is that bad?

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@TravisJ yeah that typo is really glaring!

Grammar too, not 100% sure though. :P

rene

10:11 PM

@TravisJ in 49 minutes ... hold your breath ...

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I dunno

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene IIRC spam flags cause posts to become audits, whereas if there are only rude flags they don't, but most sites don't have audits.

rene

I flag what I think it is. That makes my life easier

Travis J

@rene Happy hour is a state of being

rene

of being ... what?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

<s>strike</s> ~strike~ (testing chat format)

<strike>strike</strike>

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

10:15 PM

---strike---

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

~~strike~~

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

yup

Sandbox on the Tavern

@rene happy?

rene

that is an option, yes

Travis J

State of being is an expression essentially meaning that is where you exist.

Fabby

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You're ~~an idiot~~ didn't know that? ;-) :D

Travis J

10:18 PM

I Happy Hour, therefore I am.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

My goals with this room thus far have been: ~~1. to be able to talk to staff members and obtain more information on the various intricacies of the software that powers SE sites~~ 2. to be able to turn off my neurotypical emulator and talk to people who are also interested in SE, my autistic "special interest", and exchange information at length about SE. I understand I can't meet the first goal here, but is my second goal out of alignment with this room?

Fabby

I thought all blue people in this room were SE emps?

Travis J

are

Sorry, not very happy hourish of me.. yarrrrr

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

(cc @rene, see my message above)

rene

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It depends on how you approach that and if you are capable on responding to feedback and advice to knock it off. Beyond that, most of info on SE is found on meta so that will not be the primary topic of the chatter here.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm not dead yet

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

10:23 PM

@rene Not all info, however. There are still quite a few missing gaps. For instance, see the proposed FAQ on merging questions.

rene

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog and don't make this mistake to switch from pinging SE staff to pinging me

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene Do you recall the primary reason for my pinging staff members? Does that reason exist with normal community members?

tl;dr, no it doesn't, so I won't ping you.

The only reason I pinged you above is because you were involved.

rene

You can try to bring up something for discussion but knock it off if regulars here tell you so. Under that condition you can work on your goal.

user194636

Perhaps it would help if this room had ~~an accurate~~ a specific room topic.

rene

It never had.

Travis J

10:29 PM

status-declined

user194636

shrug

user194636

red tags, that's a bit flash

rene

Still sad about <blink> not working ...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene Always been an IE user.

Travis J

I mean, there is a topic though, really. It's a Tavern.

Supposed to be a safe space for relaxing.

Kevin B

10:31 PM

ew

user194636

sounds like a place for drinking

Travis J

Cat memes. I cannot stress this enough. Cat. Memes.

@PaulWhite Finally someone gets it.

rene

drinking sound good

user194636

anyway idk I guess I expected the most active room on chat.meta to be primarily about meta.se

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

For me, relaxing has been to turn off my emulator. It's an extreme resource hog for me. It's like the System Idle Process (in Windows Task Manager).

user194636

10:33 PM

Windows Task Manager lies

Travis J

@PaulWhite Sometimes it is. Especially on like, a Tuesday, when a feature gets released or a blog is posted, etc. But often, on down days, and mostly Fridays, and especially Happy Hour, it is primarily just a place to kind of wind down.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I haven't cared much about days of the week here.

Travis J

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Also, I've always thought that being there for users who want to chat one on one is part of staff members' professional obligation, and that staff members are super interested in SE and is their form of relaxation (it isn't).

Travis J

Aside from the fact that SE staff is super interested in SE, I would just internalize the rest of that as being incorrect.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

10:40 PM

What I mean is, staff members don't all have "special interests" in SE just like me. For them, it's their work, not their play.

Whereas for me, SE is my play.

Journeyman Geek

Good morning

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

01:43 is morning

rene

wrong timezone

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

Working just fine!

rene

:D

Journeyman Geek

10:48 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog incorrect.

In a sense - it just like constantly bugging me on root access cause you can't wait for a flag or meta answer

Or walking into another class and yelling questions at a teacher

rene

11:08 PM

→ 4 messages moved to Chimney

Journeyman Geek

Critically many aspects of your behavior has made the tavern a much less .. pleasant place and well that is the problem

Consider this - the social mechanics of a site are just as important as the internal mechanics. You're going to have a lot more luck getting your answers if people think well of you

Other than the occasional 'wait, they quietly fixed that FR I made 3 years ago' I've found that the 'social capital' I've built up with people across the network helps me get answers quicker or even influence decisions in small ways.

Fabby

@JourneymanGeek I didn't know your opinion of me was that low...

:-) ;-)

Journeyman Geek

@Fabby it would fit under a limbo bar :p

Not as bad as that erstaz blink tag tho

Fabby

@JourneymanGeek :D :D :D

@JourneymanGeek If he would have converted that to this it wouldn't have been so bad though (Hint! Hint! @ShadowtheWelcomingWizard )

Journeyman Geek

Now what would be totally evil would be slightly randomish blink times

Fabby

11:20 PM

@JourneymanGeek :D :D :D You're even more evil than Shadow!

user194636

This message contributes to moving the <blink> off the visible page.

Journeyman Geek

I use my evil for good. Or something like that

@AaronHall I feel a lot of my motivation is implicit and a lot of what I get out of the network can't really be measured in numbers

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

11:46 PM

@Fabby now that's quite an achievement! ;)

Fabby

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Depends on how you look at it!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

2 hours ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

My goals with this room thus far have been: ~~1. to be able to talk to staff members and obtain more information on the various intricacies of the software that powers SE sites~~ 2. to be able to turn off my neurotypical emulator and talk to people who are also interested in SE, my autistic "special interest", and exchange information at length about SE. I understand I can't meet the first goal here, but is my second goal out of alignment with this room?

Journeyman Geek

Well clearly this has not gone well

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Can you please answer the question?

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