Tavern on the Meta

Rob

01:14

@PM2Ring I yam what I yam

Let's Sing with Popeye (1934)

►

PM 2Ring

01:48

@Rob :) Popeye cartoons on TV were still popular when I was a kid. I was never a big fan, but I do like spinach.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

02:32

downvote-pls needs -3 score to allow 20k+ users to vote to delete: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/339220/…

Journeyman Geek

02:47

oops

missed that one

Sorry, was distracted with other things

Journeyman Geek

03:35

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog meta.stackexchange.com/questions/125268/…

inference from here + observation

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@JourneymanGeek I was the one who wrote that bullet (which is also quoted in the question), and I didn't have all the information, so I wrote it so it could be interpreted both ways.

I'd like to know which interpretation is correct, so I can clarify that bullet.

Journeyman Geek

So - the suspension applied to the new account is the remaining time from the old account

That much I can confirm off the top of my head

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@JourneymanGeek Still - there are two ways to interpret that; see my edits to the question

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog lets say...

I suspend my evil twin stayingman nerd for a month

he deletes his account after a week

waits a week

then comes back as "No, I am not a cat in a dog mask'

The suspension on the account will be a month - 2 weeks

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Okay, I guess you're saying the second interpretation is correct. Could you please confirm this with evidence?

Journeyman Geek

03:40

so if he comes back after the suspension on the dead account expires, he shoould be fine

I'm not suspending aibobot to test

So no

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Isn't there a "remainder of unserved suspension applied" raised when such a thing happens? Can't you look to that for a past case, rather than making a new case?

Journeyman Geek

errrrr

I'd have to remember a specific user who did that

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

I guess the main ambiguity is whether or not the user is considered "serving" the suspension while their account is deleted

Journeyman Geek

They are

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Well, in any case, I've gone ahead and edited the FAQ bullet to state that this is the case.

Journeyman Geek

03:55

I got my amusement. Trying to decide between being helpful and the peer pressure badge ;p

k, no peer pressure badge after that edit

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

05:23

Speaking of GoFundMe campaigns, Yvette Colomb is running another one to raise funds to keep her horses healthy.

2

rene

07:04

They could just suspend users who put in such links. As suspension reduces a user's rep to 1, and 10 rep is required for any links to render, this has the side effect of removing (formatted) links. — Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog yesterday

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog with that ^ comment you made my day. Thanks for that.

I find that incredibly funny.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

07:44

Wolf don't eat the parrot!

Tinkeringbell

07:56

Language!

mag

@motosubatsu :/ really?

Journeyman Geek

@motosubatsu so... I saw that post

here's the thing. No matter how mad we are at specific staff members, this is literally the reaction folks who don't want us want

LOOK! META IS TOXIC!

It dosen't help

I'm mad too. Dosen't mean we need to sink to that level.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

didn't see :/

motosubatsu

08:19

@JourneymanGeek except I have no personal beef with any specific staff member, and I said nothing in the way of a personal nature against any staff member, sure I called them out by name but all my criticism was directed at their professional actions

Journeyman Geek

@motosubatsu and that's not how folks will spin it

motosubatsu

I didn't say 'x is a doodoo head' or 'I don't like x' I said x produced this in their role, I think it is bad because of x y and z

Journeyman Geek

Focus on the actions, and how its hurting the community. I got you. But calling them out by name crosses the line. Just cause some folks forget how we do things in the proper SE community doesn't mean we should.

And getting mad at a fellow mod isn't cool either

Certainly not ... like that

I empathise, but seriously man

motosubatsu

If the name was the issue and I don't really agree that it should be when you are referring to something that is published under their name then an edit or redaction would have been the appropriate choice

Journeyman Geek

@motosubatsu It was incredibly difficult to do that.

I was trying to figure out how to do it

and people would have yelled at me too.

motosubatsu

08:25

And a minor nitpick. I have no "fellow mods" for I am not a mod, and yes i got mad, and I don't feel that was entirely unwarranted, my post goes from one dissenting comment and multiple up votes to gone, with a dismissive comment

Journeyman Geek

@motosubatsu I'm a MSE mod

motosubatsu

Ahh of course sorry I misunderstood that

Journeyman Geek

And I'm not happy at how things are going either

But stuff like this makes me feel like we're getting played for fools. :/

and I do mean we. I've spent a good chunk of the past year working with folks and trying to keep meta relevant

Magisch

I'm not sure if any of this matters but picture what happens when someone from staff reads your post

Will they engage with the arguments you made or dismiss it as harassment?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch more precisely - it gets shown as an example of how meta is toxic

Magisch

08:29

That ship has already sailed, circumnavigated the globe and returned to port laden with exotic spices

Journeyman Geek

It dosen't matter if you're actually even right.

PM 2Ring

Oct 13 at 17:17, by PM 2Ring

@Magisch If I were even more cynical than I am, I'd suggest that it's the ancient strategy of Divide & Conquer at work... But I'm too good-hearted & optimistic to suggest that. ;)

Journeyman Geek

Yes

motosubatsu

Sorry to dash In the middle of a conversation but I have to head to work, will return I promisr

Journeyman Geek

So, in a sense - its as much gone cause it hurts the community as much as it being a personal attack

Magisch

08:30

meh

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch There's still a few staff members who clearly care + I figure if their latest plans fail at least there's meta

Magisch

I'm not convinced it matters at this point. Meta is already regarded as toxic, is already not being listened to and dismissed, and is already slated to be repealed and replaced, nothing we do will change their mind on that. The only reason we have not to engage in that way is personal moral resolve not to stoop to that level

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch and that feeds itself.

I mean the outrage

As someone who believes in the value of meta for us...

Magisch

so? Do you think anything you or tink or even every single user who ever visited this room can do to stop that? SE is clearly not going to, they've just announced they're canceling meta

Journeyman Geek

I'm kinda tired of folks fighting each other, almost for its own sake

Nope.

But doing nothing sucks

And I actually care about what people other than me think.

Magisch

08:35

we've been fighting against windmills on MSE ever since this all started, fighting a war that SE never had any interest helping us even though it is theirs, and now they've decided to just cancel the entire platform. Besides not wanting to stoop to that level, what convincing argument is there for continuing to be civil on there? I agree we should but at this point only because it's the wrong thing to do not to be, not because it has any utility

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch well - thats about it - and its still a platform for running the stuff we need to run

Magisch

I'm semi convinced they'll put it into read-only before Q2 2020

Journeyman Geek

naw

CptEric

just had my first coffee and am still waking up, what is today's issue?

Journeyman Geek

I kinda think they'll just ignore it

Shadow The Princess Wizard

08:37

Huh? @Mag you're back to your full self! What about the cactus? Will it return too? ;)

Journeyman Geek

And the rest of the network

PM 2Ring

@Magisch I don't think they'll actually obliterate meta(s). They'll possibly leave them as places for the community to discuss stuff among themselves, but there will no longer be a direct official channel of communication from meta to SE staff. OTOH, if the metas become predominantly echo chambers of negativity against SO Inc, then I guess they may pull the plug.

Magisch

@ShadowThePrincessWizard I'll look for an avatar when I get home

something cactus themed, i'm sure

Journeyman Geek

Nothing different from the past few years. At least there's no promises things will get better

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Magisch sad?

@CptEric here's another one then

!!/coffee CptEric

SmokeDetector

08:39

@ShadowThePrincessWizard brews a cup of jQuery for @CptEric

CptEric

shrinks

atleast it's not ABAP

drinks

danke

Shadow The Princess Wizard

:D

PM 2Ring

As I said here: meta.stackexchange.com/a/338836/334566 I think it's high time for a drastic overhaul of how meta functions. I'd like to say I'm cautiously optimistic about the upcoming changes, but frankly that Loop blog post & the Through The Loop survey don't give me much confidence, especially in the light of what's gone down over the last couple of months.

@CptEric One of the Physics mods works at SAP, and does a lot of stuff with ABAP.

CptEric

my sincere condolences.

PM 2Ring

Is it really that bad?

CptEric

08:46

the framework that it's built upon, the aged language that predates 1968-esque COBOL and a single window, not quite stable IDE that weights over 60gb made me hide it from my CV as soon as i stopped doing it.

PM 2Ring

I admit the concept does seem more than a little hare-brained: create your own in-house language which is essentially a transformed version of Cobol, with added OOP...

CptEric

not much OOP to it tbh

PM 2Ring

A 60 GB IDE? Ok, that's frankly mental.

CptEric

it's because you need to run your own instance of the server cluster for local compiling + a local client to see the results

Magisch

a former vocational school colleague was programming in ABAP

CptEric

08:49

which are all part of the same IDE interface

and can't be open separately

speaking on my knowledge of SAP 3.5 enterprise, unsure if that's changed since 2015.

PM 2Ring

I started coding on mainframes in the early 70s. So I learned to be frugal with RAM. I do take advantage of the RAM on modern systems, but I still like to be relatively frugal, when practical.

CptEric

if you like old languages sap is a big jump from cobol for sure. but it's ages far from anything post 80's

and it's fast as fuck executing queries given the whole thing is "one".

that's the only positive thing, i could get the whole flight record of one day in seconds.

by selling part of my soul to the language and hanging, clunky IDE.

PM 2Ring

@CptEric Makes sense.

CptEric

the ide i worked with: i.ytimg.com/vi/EMP-yqtIOBQ/maxresdefault.jpg

that's the data view, where you could create the models. then you had to create views, which filled the models or served as interfaces for stuff like servlets, etc

and then the code editor: i.ytimg.com/vi/4DW_51SKniE/maxresdefault.jpg

had to close one to open the others.

that editor is newer btw, mine was still the eggnog and cyan colored UI

ooh the new one is no longer 60gb, apparently yuo can set up a cloud instance for IDE's. that easens the pain a bit.

PM 2Ring

All that uppercase code is giving me Cobol & Fortran flashbacks. ;)

Hitodama

09:01

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi in Advent Children Marlene does indeed visit the church at some point, but I don't think the specific visual of Barret holding Marlene on the shoulder happens at any point in the movie. Nor does it happen in FF7.

If I recall correctly, that scene was just a "promo" wallpaper for the original game (and maybe it was used in the PC version during the installation process).

PM 2Ring

There are actually 2 regulars in The h Bar (Physics chat) who work for SAP, but I think only one of them (A Curious Mind) does ABAP stuff.

Magisch

@CptEric from what I hear though it's extremely well paid

if soul crushing

PM 2Ring

A Finnish coder has created a site dedicated to giving practical advice about XML: xml.fi ;)

CptEric

09:17

@Magisch it is, because i know very little people that have gotten in contact with it and actually liked getting anywhere close anymore

so it's quite demanded due to scarcity

Magisch

@CptEric I actually thought about learning it and working in that field, as it has quite a few similarities to microsoft access which I'm comfortable maintenance coding in, but people doing it are largely consulting

and I need my regular routine and consulting isn't for me

CptEric

yup it's mostly consulting work

there's also a lot of dirty finntech work when banks go from cobol to sap as framework upgrade

but i think most of that already happened in the mid 2010's

Magisch

I'm personally more of a fixed permanent employment type person

nobody could pay me enough to go into consulting. That is intensely stressful for me, it'd have to be enough that I could retire after like 5 years of doing it which will never happen

Hitodama

Looking at the transcript since yesterday - I do notice that no one seems to have mentioned that question about the new "Microsoft Competitor". Just wondering - is just random event, explicit choice, mandatory policy...?

Magisch

which question?

Journeyman Geek

09:25

oh, the OSQA based one?

Hitodama

@Magisch Here

Journeyman Geek

> SO Enterprise would have been a great solution, if it supported all the requirements that we had. However, it doesn't. SO has been prioritizing SO Teams development and SO Enterprise intranet scenarios. They have different priorities and those didn't align well with the needs we have, including but not limited to support for a localized experience and broad support for a large number of languages and character sets.

gee

CptEric

@Magisch then the only SAP work i know there is trough SAP partners, but most are telecom companies paying peanuts

Indra, T-Systems, the_french_one_i_always_forget, Telefonica...

Hitodama

@JourneymanGeek yep, SE as a whole served them a good opportunity on a silver plate - and this is the nice version

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek I mean, if microsoft were to adopt this further and side-grade into a SE style site model, this could easily just supplant SE

especially since microsoft has no need to make direct profit from a Q/A site - they'll be using this as a customer acquisition tool

CptEric

09:33

> We love Stack Overflow. We will continue supporting our customers who ask questions there. In the future, we will introduce a feature that points askers on Microsoft Q&A to relevant answers from Stack Overflow.

However, Stack Overflow has specific criteria about what questions are appropriate for the community and Microsoft Q&A will have a more open policy regarding this. More importantly, via Microsoft Q&A we can create unique experiences that allow us to provide the highest level of support for our customers. It is hard to get a full picture of the customer who is asking a question on …

Hitodama

@Magisch there is a very interesting quote there too.... precisely this passage.

> But on Microsoft Q&A it will be possible to connect the asker to their actual product usage and support contract. This will enable new opportunities to offer the highest quality support.

This could mean that they plan to provide a way to "get answers" from the actual product teams

meaning that a question about SharePoint could actually be answered... by those who worked on the feature.

This alone has the potential to be a game breaker if done decently.

JAD

well, nothing is stopping that from happening right now is it?

Hitodama

I have far to many question on SharePoint that basically only Microsoft could answer.

@JAD Now: a Microsoft employee should create an account here and answer in their free time. Depending on how "foolish" their work contract is, they may have a non-disclosure agreement that don't allow them to provide inner implementation details.

JAD

hmm true

I wonder if that might open the door to private answers based on license

Hitodama

Microsoft owned Q&A site? Probably paid to engage with the community

JAD

09:41

(back on MSQ&A)

CptEric

with their QA platform, they can have DevRels do that

Hitodama

@JAD I don't think they will provide private answers... but private support to fix a problem is totally an option

Magisch

well one thing isn't for sure

regardless of how big it gets, the Q/A site itself will not need to make a profit for MS

since it's a community outreach & customer relations thing

Hitodama

> "I have this problem with product XYZ, seems like a bug"
"Oh, you are a gold Microsoft Partner, let us get you a private fix until we get this sorted for public release"

CptEric

that's how most support works though

which is what made SO great - there was no paywall behind solutions

Magisch

09:45

seems like such a model didn't work out too well with VC money

Journeyman Geek

@Hitodama actually msft employees do do that. And I see a lot of <username> msft

Hitodama

@JourneymanGeek Yes I know, I saw them too. Still, I think having the "company" on your back could provide a boost in that field. Meaning that I could see them more easily posting info on a Microsoft owned Q&A site.

Journeyman Geek

@Hitodama sure

Hitodama

@CptEric My example would not be a paywall - just a way to get companies to use benefits they already have (like getting hot-fix before public release) in an easier way. But I get what you mean.

Anyway, I will keep an eye on that site. Could be interesting, depending on how it evolves.

CptEric

yeah i got you, we once payed for a certain bitbucket addon that didn't work for us and we had a hotfix deployed and access to the source to find our way trough it. a non-paying user would have gotten an ETA for the release at most

motosubatsu

09:54

@Magisch if staff choose to engage in falsely equating criticism as "harassment" I can't control that - but the notion of implicitly validating that false equivalence by preemptively decreeing it so doesn't sit right with me personally

CptEric

what post?

Magisch

@motosubatsu surely you admit your post is quite caustic

what would you think if someone wrote that about you? Would you be in the frame of mind to engage constructively with the arguments?

Cœur

Hello. I'm reading today that Joel left (Joel left, and SE as we know it is dead), but I'd like to know where was it announced/discovered that Joel left?

Bart

Announcing Stack Overflow’s New CEO, Prashanth Chandrasekar!

Joel Spolsky on September 24, 2019

Last March, I shared that we were starting to look for a new CEO for Stack Overflow. We were looking for that rare combination of someone who could foster the community while accelerating the growth of our businesses, especially Teams, where we are starting to close many huge deals and becoming a hyper-growth enterprise software company very quickly. This is not something I’m particularly good at, and I thought it was time to bring on more experienced leadership.

The Board of Directors nominated a search committee and we went through almost 200 candidates. It speaks to how well respected a com …

motosubatsu

@Magisch no I don't.. it was relatively mild IMO

Cœur

09:57

@Bart Oh, so it was 2 months ago?

motosubatsu

@Magisch I'd engage - and have done so elsewhere with far more "caustic" criticism (to use your word)

and I've engaged with people who attacked me personally, something I did not do here

Magisch

ok different angle

as you view the recipient of your criticism, do you think they would read that and not just think of you as another toxic meta-user

Tinkeringbell

@motosubatsu You used someone's name to label their work a bullshit bingo. That's a personal attack whether you like it or not. And we can discuss this ad infinitum, but it's not going to get your post undeleted.

Magisch

and if you agree they would, who is that post for? Just screaming into the void? It's cartharthic, I'll grant you that, but I've been doing it on notepad and then not posting the result :p

motosubatsu

@Tinkeringbell I disagree, for reasons I've already stated. You say yourself I attacked the work not the person. And kindly would you not accuse me of directly using the expletive, I self-censored that word in accordance with SO/SE policy.

Tinkeringbell

10:02

@motosubatsu Well, for disagreeing there's Contact Us. Not chat.

I do hope they hurry up with that part of The Loop.

Magisch

chat is perfectly fine to discuss such things, just not very likely to get the answer undeleted

Journeyman Geek

Actually...

Twitter

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch If you disagree with a moderator action and think they're abusing their power, that's contact us. Not chat ;)

Journeyman Geek

Seriously

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell mhm. Moderators are also accountable to public opinion

Journeyman Geek

10:03

If you want to complain about staff. Twitter.

Tinkeringbell

I'm not staff ;)

Magisch

discussing the validity of a moderator action in chat is perfectly fine as long as it remains respectful. it's not likely to get it overturned but discussing it isn't off topic

Tinkeringbell

Yeah well as this didn't start out respectful, it's not one we're having as far as I'm concerned :)

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

@Hitodama ohhh you may be right. I vaguely remember that scene, but I'm fairly sure I've never seen it happen in my 4+ playthrough of the game (that was quite some time ago, anyway)

Magisch

yeah the starting message has been deleted. What remains was respectful from what I see

Tinkeringbell

10:05

@Magisch The starting message getting deleted should've been the end of it.

motosubatsu

@Tinkeringbell for my initial comment - I do apologise, sincerely. It's no excuse but I had just woken up and was ill-disposed. I have done my best to engage in cordial behavior since

Tinkeringbell

Instead, people chose to engage with that anyways.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell there's no if you started it wrong you have to drop it rule

we engaged with the respectfully raised points of the discussion. I dont see the problem with that

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch There's one where it's not advised to engage after people do... but sure, feel free to have the convo, go in circles...

motosubatsu

I will fess up to my "bad" with the initial comment - but I respectfully disagree that means I should forever more hold my peace

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

10:06

I had the same experience. Staff labelled my criticism as "trolling" or "harassment", and eventually even various -isms - while at the same time refusing to address my original point.@motosubatsu

Tinkeringbell

Waste energy on that post...

It's what makes MSE so good lately. All the energy goes to the bad stuff, instead of people encouraging the good things.

Hitodama

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi oh, don't worry. I am just taking notices of the various anomalies surrounding the FF7 remake.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell now you're in a bad mood instead of me :p

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch No, just being realistic and pointing out stuff I've been noticing for weeks already :)

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

They suggested to use the Contact form for any grievances... which of course, sits ignored after 3+ weeks now.

Tinkeringbell

10:08

If I'm in a bad mood, that sentence would've had expletives.

Magisch

you've never used expletives on SE

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi iirc you don't get notified when they close a ticket as no action needed

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

I never was.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Have. Just not where/when you saw it, or it got deleted.

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

Perhaps the backlog is really that long. Who knows.

Journeyman Geek

@motosubatsu no one's telling you to shut up

but critique can be more... tactical

JAD

10:12

@JourneymanGeek not explicitly, but this did suggest it

Journeyman Geek

Oh, ok

motosubatsu

@Magisch in good faith I can't say I've never used an expletive on SE - but I try not to, I'm only human and occasionally get things wrong but I explicitly censored the "bad" word in my now deleted post - not in an edit but at time of writing.

Hitodama

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi Oh, it really works well. NOT.

May 2 '18 at 14:05, by Derpy

there you go, @user5389107 . Flagged multiple times. Used the "contact us" link and sent a custom mail asking for its removal or an explanation of why it should stay. Got NO ANSWER.

The parrot or the dog may actually remember what this was about since probably they were the ones who had to pick up the trash that day.

Contacting SE didn't work, nor contacting a community manger.

And yep, there were offensive pictures, mockery, calling users "mentally ill" and such.

Tinkeringbell

@Hitodama Not really, we were only instated Nov '18.

Journeyman Geek

\o/ I have a few ~~emails~~ contact us I never got a response for either

Hitodama

10:17

@Tinkeringbell so, whoever was mod before you.

Journeyman Geek

@Hitodama there were none

Tinkeringbell

ruining my jokes huh..

Magisch

I've never recieved a response to any of my contact us requests except one where I inquired about deleting all of my accounts at once in 2018

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell those - at least SE sends rejections

motosubatsu

@Magisch I do think there's a more than fair chance that the named author of the blog may have viewed my comments as harassment yes, but a) they were far from the only intended audience of my post and b) just because someone may choose to unfavorably twist something I say doesn't mean I am going to refrain from saying it

Tinkeringbell

10:19

@JourneymanGeek Oh, they weren't for SE.

Hitodama

@JourneymanGeek Then either a room owner, or Shog passing by.

Magisch

@motosubatsu who was the intended audience then?

Journeyman Geek

and I'm pretty certain they aren't hiring for the role I want any time soon

Hitodama

In both cases it sadly demonstrates that you are better to try to get people noticing bad content in chat that trying to report those privately.

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

@motosubatsu Indeed. Just because someone is offended by something I say that doesn't automatically means that it's bad - if it's written without insulting, it expresses a valid point, doesn't use rude words, etc.

motosubatsu

10:20

@Magisch all those who were interested in seeing, as the question title indicated what those in the community felt regarding the loop and the accompanying blog post

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

Mods seem to think otherwise.

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek I want my apartment done and finances settled, and then I'll probably go look at the possibility of just returning to retail.

Magisch

@Hitodama even better, tweet about it and see if you can find a progressive angle on it

@Tinkeringbell not feeling the whole software dev thing?

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@Tinkeringbell Spam account: meta.stackexchange.com/users/658060/velofelinaus

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Oh, the software dev thing is essentially nice. It's the cruff on the sides...

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog gone :)

Magisch

10:22

@Tinkeringbell Isn't it ironic that you may get scared off by the very thing the industry is attempting to increase the amount of women in the profession

Tinkeringbell

I miss having a bunch of people to hang out with just for the sake of hanging out, instead of being someone's pet project to their next promotion, and in retail no one is going to treat you differently based on gender.

Magisch

somewhere alanis morrisette is having a field day

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Probably, yeah.

Magisch

try going for a small company's software department first, someone who does their own in house systems but is small. corporate culture hasn't seeped through that deep yet

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Meh. Retail probably also means I can work close to home...

John Dvorak

10:24

@Magisch it must be raining at that location

Hitodama

Anyway, about the deleted post, can I humbly suggest an attempt at a pacific midway agreement by at changing that line to "Corporate Buzword Bingo?"

Tinkeringbell

Which would be extraordinarily nice, to get off at 5 and be home at 5:15

Magisch

I can relate. I work 10 mins by bike away from my apartment

end at 4:30. Home at 4:45 unless I have to go grocery shopping, then I'm home at 5:10-15

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, I'd like about the same.

Even if I get a car, I'm still travelling 45 minutes one way each day.

Time better spent doing other stuff.

Magisch

but yeah, I'd never work with a big firm, as that would require disclosing my condition at pre-employment and that either means open discrimination or the type of help that really feels like discrimination even if it's well meaning

Tinkeringbell

10:27

@Magisch Yeah, it's never perfect, is it? :P

Magisch

the only winning move is not to play, e.g. never mention it and develop your own coping strategies

Tinkeringbell

Oh, I thought that would mean never take any job ;)

Magisch

people either view and treat you as inferior or a charity case which is both insulting, except I find the charity case treatment even more insulting because at least the real discriminators sometimes have a nagging conscience that causes them to stop on occasion

Tinkeringbell

Yep.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell its probably the company as much as anything else

not everywhere is like anywhere else

Tinkeringbell

10:34

Oh true... but retail would have several other benefits too, like I said it would be close to home..

There's also never overtime, or the pressure that 'you can't be a consultant with only 40 hours'.

(I was a software dev, that's what was on the portals too as my job description, now I'm suddenly a consultant. Didn't sign up for that).

Magisch

if you ride the wave long enough you could probably be a manager with less egregious hours

but I get what you mean

CptEric

@Tinkeringbell i know it seems like a fair obvious question but: maybe another country's tech culture fits you more?

motosubatsu

@Hitodama Not a bad suggestion - I've re-worded it to "The blog post hits many of the talking points that have become de rigour in recent times, and to my ears they are sounding increasingly hollow"

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric I'm buying an apartment here... and most are worse, trust me. If I have to fill out an application that states more about what I am than what I can do... that's not good.

Magisch

you wouldn't find respite here either, i'm afraid

CptEric

10:38

ugh. didn't have that experience in germany, but yeah if you're settling down, find somewhere where you are happy is the best.

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric Oh, I can be happy here... with a different job, I guess ;)

Magisch

the entire software industry in most countries and pretty much everywhere in europe is interested in getting more women into the job, there's even talk of a legislative-level 40% female mandatory quota for all middle management

Tinkeringbell

I worked retail for several years before, it's not as horrible as the stories may make it seem.

Magisch

software is nowhere near that, so people are scrambling to find anyone they can get to that level

CptEric

somewhere as job :D

Tinkeringbell

10:40

@Magisch Fun huh? So we're pulling on the female dev to go more into managing (yep... that too, why do you think I'm suddenly a consultant?)

Like I'm going to want 60 hour work weeks.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell I mean, you can understand why they're doing it. If that law eventually hits, you have 2 choices: promote more women internally or only women until you fill the quota, or hire externally and start demoting your existing male managers

JAD

@Tinkeringbell consultant and developer are not mutually exclusive. You can develop for your own company, or the company provides developers to other companies. In the latter case, you're a consultant.

Generally, companies that provide developers to others, have that as their core business.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch The fun thing is when your current 'boss' is saying that he's doing applications for new team managers, and there's two candidates, and one has experience and qualifications, the other has little of those but is female... and you've already had 5 managers in 2.5 years, and you can already guess the next one you're stuck with is going to be not so qualified... sigh

@JAD True, perhaps. But the fact that they changed my job description without clearly notifying me, and that I'm now getting the whole 'yeah well, you can't be a consultant for only 40 hours a week, you need to do company stuff besides client stuff, in your own time'... I did not agree to that change, I was not warned it would come... Together with all the other crap I've been through the last 2 years... retail is looking better, even with the paycut.

CptEric

that sounds pretty horrible.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell such is the case when the industry is trying to quickly and artificially correct a historic imbalance

not helped by lawmakers permanently dangling the specter of fines over company's heads

CptEric

10:48

i've also seen that in some places (nowhere close to me) there's this kind of elevator culture where if you don't want to be C-level or "manager of" you're suddenly conflictive

"go up or go out"

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric It sounds more like regular work trouble to me. I mean the retail job I worked had a store on the verge of bankruptcy, a drunk boss, too little staff and too much work... Each job has it's downsides, it's just what you're prepared to put up with, I guess.

CptEric

i just want to code, not bring work home and maybe one day occasionally teach padawans stuff.

Tinkeringbell

Apparently such jobs don't exist ;)

CptEric

mine for now is 😃

Tinkeringbell

That sounds nice :) Mine was at the beginning too ;)

Magisch

10:55

mine was too but now i'm data protection officer

CptEric

do you get a badge?

i'd ask for one

Bart

Forget the badge, get a taser.

motosubatsu

@CptEric I felt similarly after my last permanent role (as a Head of Development) - so I became a developer contractor instead, I show up, I code, I go home, I bill the client. And that's all there is to it - not having work take over your home life is so.. liberating

CptEric

@Bart That personal field in the database wasn't deleted with the last anonimization script. ZZZzzzzaaaaaap

Bart

It would at least make dealing with GDPR more fun

2

Tinkeringbell

11:04

@motosubatsu That's not really an option here either, a ZZP-er has to do load of administration... that would still take work home, and also there's a whole bunch of rules around insurances and pensions and stuff... I don't want to deal with that either :P

motosubatsu

@Tinkeringbell we have those too - although to be fair I "cheated" partially and hired an assistant. That said the admin overhead of running the company is (for me at least) far smaller than what permanent roles used to put on me

CptEric

there's usually specialized firms dedicated to handling that for you

in spanish it's gestoría but i have no way of finding a correct translation for what they do

motosubatsu

@CptEric yeah, in the UK you can often work under what they call an "Umbrella" company

CptEric

i'm speaking more of offices full of people that all they do is administration for companies/individuals/ZZP-ers that don't want / don't need HR/ADM/etc

from payslips to medical leaves to tax

Hitodama

@motosubatsu this? ^

oh, I almost forgot.

I was to ruin the parrot day.

here @Tinkeringbell

10

Q: Do Pokemon stay 'super shiny' when they evolve?

In SwSh, they added a new shiny visual effect called 'super shiny', which has square sparkles instead of stars. Are the square sparkles kept upon evolution?

pokemon-sword-shield

yep, you will have two types of shiny to collect now.

Aren't you happy?

More farming!

Tinkeringbell

11:19

Not really :P

I'll stick with Stardew Valley and crochet for now ;) That, and a visit to a concert, should technically get me through the christmas vacation ;)

CptEric

themed crochet?

Tinkeringbell

Might do, one day

CptEric

cool

Tinkeringbell

That designer makes awesome patterns :) And most of them are free too!

CptEric

i once gifted a star wars crochet kit for christmas, had all the characters, the wool and the guides.

Tinkeringbell

11:24

@CptEric I have two of those :D

Different patterns/characters, though mine only came with supplies for two characters and patterns for more of them.

motosubatsu

@Hitodama lol.. I've always thought the same whenever I've heard it discussed

Tinkeringbell

this one and this one

CptEric

must be the same kit. the one i gave had jabba, yoda a stormtrooper and leia

never saw them made tho. life sucks.

Tinkeringbell

The yoda is fun to make!

@CptEric Heh. I got gifted some stuff when I left the previous team... it took me two years of working at other projects I also wanted to do before I got to them. It might still happen!

Magisch

11:41

@CptEric yea sure, the badge will read "GDPR fall guy"

I'm basically unfireable, so there's that

rene

11:55

@Tinkeringbell so when you get a crochet kit at work, you know it is time to leave ... noted ...

Tinkeringbell

@rene Oh, I knew it was time to leave already, it was a parting gift ;)

rene

I'm not that sensitive ...

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