Tavern on the Meta

Journeyman Geek

18:00

@Stevoisiak There's a few folks who're linchpins

user1306322

@Stevoisiak how so?

CalvT

@JourneymanGeek was that rollback comment for that answer, or the question?

Stevoisiak

Seeing which communities have had multiple mod resignations, and which ones havent

Journeyman Geek

@CalvTs erf

I'm clearly tried

user1306322

tried and true :p

Mgetz

18:01

@Snow sorry to be cynical, but if a mod is dismissed by the company I don't think they'll be allowed an appeal on the grounds that only court/forced arbitration could settle it and it would still be hostile.

rene

@user1306322 related: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/124749/… and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/321241/…

Bart

So tried you need a good rset and some splee?

user351483

@Mgetz So why would Sara talk about an appeals process?

Stevoisiak

I've seen one community without any mod resignations, but worry that the fall of SE could hurt the welcoming community they currently have

Mgetz

@Snow for future cases. I don't think appeal will be allowed in this case

Journeyman Geek

18:03

@Stevoisiak and well, sadly enough that can be a concequence of what happens now

Mgetz

at the end of the day the SE staff is the final court of appeal. If they make a decision it is final.

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz its just as important the process is fair

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek A fair process involves lawyers and a court room. We're not and never were going to get that.

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz its true

But I've never seen a action by SE do so much damage to the network, ever

Ælis

@Stevoisiak I'm wondering what community you are talking about. There is a lot of different community in SE and I think multiple of them might be in the case you are describing

Journeyman Geek

18:05

and honestly

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek I have, but nobody realized at the time. It's irrelevant now at this point as it can't be changed.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

methinks they've cleared the way for the Super Moderator Election 9000™, where they'll be able to get all the Right Thinking people in

Journeyman Geek

I see the best and worst in people

@FélixGagnon-Grenier :/

Stevoisiak

@Ælis I'm purposely not mentioning it because I don't want to out anyone

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz well not in such a short time

Mgetz

18:07

@JourneymanGeek true, what I'm referring to started ages ago, but it's the root of what's happening here.

Journeyman Geek

and not in a time which is supposed to be crucial to SE's future

But it always is isn't it?

Stevoisiak

I'm assuming you don't to elaborate on what change that was

Journeyman Geek

@Stevoisiak depends on who you ask

Ælis

@Stevoisiak Make seen and this community would probably appreciate that

Mgetz

@Stevoisiak Nope, because re-litigating it now won't change anything

Journeyman Geek

18:09

@Stevoisiak I always felt that the focus on careers to the exception of core Q&A was a start

and the same folks probably were behind toe focus on SO

but...

things were getting better

Stevoisiak

@Ælis I'd prefer not to. I'm sorry.

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek it's older.. much much older, the things that set today in motion go back at least to 2013ish if not further back.

Journeyman Geek

honestly, felt like we mattered for the first time after the great big layoff

@Mgetz ah

ArtOfCode

There's quite a few sites without mod resignations, but quite a lot of them are the small betas whose mods don't frequent TL so much

Ælis

@Stevoisiak Oh no, don't apologize, I was just saying that I agree with you decided to not "out" this community (sorry if I wasn't clear ^^')

Stevoisiak

18:14

@Ælis Ah, ok. Thanks!

Ælis

@ArtOfCode That's what I thought. Since I spotted at least one with no formal mod declaration, I was curious to know if Stevoisiak had spotted the same or another one. But, in any case, it might be better not to say. So I will just leave it at that :)

Stevoisiak

I more-so didn't want to out because of sentiment of the community

Journeyman Geek

@Ælis SU hasn't lost any mods

Stevoisiak

It's a friendly chat in there right now, and I wouldn't want to ruin that

user351483

@ArtOfCode Lucky buggers.

Andras Deak

18:17

whether any given mod decides to stand up is their very own private business, as private as it gets, and discussing it would be in bad taste

Journeyman Geek

But least for me, I'm sticking out for my community rather than anything else

and I'll say the core folks there are excellent and kinda have been a great help in getting through this

also, they're worried if I'm holding up ok, which is touching ;p

Ælis

@Stevoisiak Sorry, didn't want to start an argument, I didn't think this topic would be so emotionally loaded (I might have needed to think more before posting, sorry about that ^^)

Journeyman Geek

nd that's true of a lot of spaces

Stevoisiak

@JourneymanGeek When I was first reading up on this, seeing your post was what made me realize how serious this was. I look up to you as a voice of reason on SE.

Journeyman Geek

Thank you

Ælis

18:20

Not related: those all chat have different "ping noise"? This chat room make a weird "bird noise" when someone pings me which is different than the pings I'm used to (on "The Awkward Silent")

Mgetz

@ArtOfCode I know I directly informed one of the mods of said sites and I've respected their decision not to get involved.

CalvT

@Ælis Different chat sites

Journeyman Geek

But unless the right people listen, I'm not sure what good I can do

CalvT

There's chat.so, chat.se and chat.meta - all have different noises

Journeyman Geek

@Ælis I think each server does

@Stevoisiak honestly - the big goal for me is if we come out of it

Ælis

18:22

Oh, thanks for the explanation!

Mgetz

@Ælis it's the door alert sound from Star trek IIRC

Journeyman Geek

we're not so fragmented and bitter and angry we can't pull things back together

Ælis

@Mgetz So, not a bird xD

Journeyman Geek

Maybe deserve my MSE hammer again ;p

Stevoisiak

I would not want to be an MSE mod right now

2

Mgetz

18:24

27 Star Trek Generations Door Chime

►

Ælis

I would not even want to be an MSE room owner right now

Stevoisiak

7

Q: Threshold experiment results: closing, editing and reopening all become more effective

This post details the outcome of an experiment that reduced the thresholds for closing and reopening questions to 3 votes on Stack Overflow. Warning: this post is looong. There is no "tl;dr". There is no summary. I've been thinking about this crap almost every day for 7 years, and I'll be damned ...

Journeyman Geek

@Stevoisiak I honestly, and correctly felt I couldn't handle it at this point of time

Stevoisiak

Oh hey, some good meta news.

@JourneymanGeek Completely understandable.

HDE 226868

"I've been thinking about this crap almost every day for 7 years, and I'll be damned if I'm not gonna inflict at least a little bit of that pain on anyone else who thinks they're interested." - Hey, Shog made me laugh, even on a day like this one.

Journeyman Geek

18:27

@HDE226868 some people have the gift ;p

Oded

And some certainly don't...

Journeyman Geek

They do not

Some also wish they did 😁

T. Sar

Agh. This whole situation is depressing.

Journeyman Geek

Uhmm also water is wet

user58

@Ælis It's been not fun for the past few days, I'll admit. It's about as bad in the MSO equivalent.

user1306322

18:38

I mean like 90% of the site's userbase will never even learn of this entire incident, so different perspectives

user58

@HDE226868 I reiterate my Tweet.

Stevoisiak

I only learned about this yesterday. Catching up on it has been... an experience

HDE 226868

@user58 Oh, yeah, that one. :D

Stevoisiak

@user58 Your tweet?

Ælis

@user58 :/ Lots of love and courage to you <3 Also, I will most definitively not checkout this MSO equivalent (well, I probably shouldn't even be there, all this agitation is bad for my sleep but I couldn't resist ><)

Journeyman Geek

18:40

@user1306322 I'm sure folks will find ways to 'educate' members of their community on happenings

M.A.R.

Aw man, the pinnidemic got here too. Sigh

Can folks just, take a break?

Magisch

@Ælis Heh. Both this and the MSO Meta room have been ... interesting :D

How's TAS holding up?

M.A.R.

@Magisch All the other chats I know are having fun.

Only the Tavern and SO Tavern get all the emotion and commotion

Quick, give me -tion nouns

Magisch

I guess I won the lottery then eh

john

@M.A.R. demotion

user1306322

18:43

subscription, upvotion, bellringtion

M.A.R.

Germans are winners by default.

Stevoisiak

@M.A.R. devotion

Ælis

@Magisch We manage to (mostly) avoid the subject, so things are fine (and quiet... with no fire... which is very nice ^^)

vikingosegundo

@user1306322 but those 90% won't be helpful for replacing mods

Stevoisiak

@M.A.R. Is it bad that my first thought was "demotion"?

M.A.R.

18:44

Actually, accepted answer

user1306322

@vikingosegundo my interests lie with the community at large, not (whatever SE is doing these past 2-3 years, I don't know what it is, they're not talking, or whatever they are doing is not it), so if there is another network of sites whose interests align with mine, I'll join that

M.A.R.

Have +15 imaginary imaginary points

Magisch

it'll be interesting how they'll deal with the "brain drain"

Stevoisiak

@M.A.R. Hooray! 🎉

M.A.R.

Plain slain brain drain

vikingosegundo

18:46

@user1306322 personally I have reduced my involvement here years ago — because of where the community was heading. Let me know once you found that community.

john

@M.A.R. pain gain campaign

Stevoisiak

@M.A.R. More words ending in -otion. rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=devotion&typeofrhyme=perfect

user1306322

(I edited my previous message because some companies find success in pursuing both profits and the interests of their communities, so it's unfair to lump them all together)

Stevoisiak

My favorite: "newton's third law of motion"

M.A.R.

@vikingosegundo TBH, I think you're setting expectations for a community open to the internet at large a bit too high.

user1306322

18:48

@vikingosegundo yea, same for me but like 2.5 years ago, but I'm still doing my thing from time to time, and I bet you'll know first because of how normally detached I am from these news

vikingosegundo

I guess we have to keep in mind: the users of a social network aren't it's customers. they are it's product. and so are we.

user1306322

well, technically, we are content providers for a platform

M.A.R.

If it's going to be about chocolates, real chocolate experts, real chocolate expert eaters and real chocolate expert makers would show up. But if anyone can join, the 99 percent will be the "dark chocolate" vs. "milk chocolate" teams.

user1306322

oh yea dat Lindt 72%

M.A.R.

@vikingosegundo I'm mostly a square root.

user1306322

18:49

none of that <50% milky biz

a step too far imo, let's not

M.A.R.

Whatever. Lines are pretty vague anyway.

That should be okay any other day, but since as usual I always miss all the drama

I forget where to step not to murky the waters.

Was it "murky" or "muddy"?

user1306322

well... the "that should be okay any other day" lasted for about a year 2 years ago...

M.A.R.

Or "moddy"

Mgetz

Ruby chocolate

Ruby chocolate is a variety of chocolate introduced in 2017 by Barry Callebaut, a Belgian–Swiss cocoa company. The variety has been in development since 2004. It was unveiled at a private event in Shanghai on 5 September 2017. It is marketed as the "fourth" type of chocolate alongside dark, milk and white chocolate varieties.The chocolate is made from "ruby cocoa beans". These are existing botanical cocoa bean varieties that have been identified as having the right attributes to be processed into ruby chocolate.The chocolate's taste is described as "sweet yet sour", with "little to none" of the...

M.A.R.

Maybe "Rambo"

@Mgetz One step closer to making that candy house.

user1306322

18:52

isn't that just additives or alternative ingredient "chocolate-like" product?

white chocolate is just cocoa bean fats iirc, not the grounds of it

like "teas" can be fruit or herbal mixes

Mgetz

@user1306322 no, read the article. It's based on unfermented chocolate

Ælis

@user1306322 Do you know that every Lindt "black" chocolate contains milk? (#VeganRant)

Mgetz

The EU in particular gets very annoyed if you call something not chocolate chocolate

Stevoisiak

@M.A.R. It looks like my internet points just arrived

user1306322

hmm are there any brands that make non-dairy chocolates?

Stevoisiak

18:55

user1306322

@Stevoisiak I'm still annoyed about how they decided to visually position the green box for the numbers

it's not centered, there is a hint of that star on the cup barely visible

Stevoisiak

@user1306322 ...You know, I never actually noticed it before

So thanks for that :P

user1306322

sorry for ruining the site for you :D

Ælis

@user1306322 In France, I know some but you will most likely only find them in "organic store"

user1306322

I just run with like 130 custom css and greasemonkey scripts which I started making since 2009 coz I just can and don't need to wait

Oded

18:58

Oy! That was my project you are dissing!

Journeyman Geek

lol

user1306322

I'm pretty sure you can find my feature request to fix it from like 2014 somewhere

Oded

Probably :D

Journeyman Geek

@Oded wait, stacks/the design refresh went back that far?

Oded

Absolutely - got started a good while back.

Changes like that take time

Journeyman Geek

19:00

i always figured it was something that got picked up in the post suck period

rene

6 to 8

user1306322

@Oded may I ask why?

Nog Shine

I am writing a question but I am not sure it is a bug or a feature request.

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 causen computer programming is nothing like crop dusting

user1306322

is there no dedicated queue for UI/UX stuff among devs which works in parallel with the backend stuff?

john

19:01

@NogShine add bug feature request and discussion

rene

@user1306322 full stack developers

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 I suspect that divison is something that is narrower the further back you look in SE's history

user1306322

@rene there are departments in big companies, where people work on different stuff separately >.<

rene

@user1306322 SE is not a big company

user1306322

that statement evokes emotions

StephanS

19:04

yo

Nog Shine

@john Oh! I never thought of such a solution. Actually I wanted to write it as two different questions. One as bug and other as FR.

rene

@user1306322 why?

john

@NogShine don't double post

Nog Shine

I added a bug for now. Is FR also applicable?

john

I meant "add one post and tag it with all of [bug] [feature request] and [discussion]".

Nog Shine

19:09

I understood. Let's see what happens.

Oded

@user1306322 because there are dozens of site designs and the change needed to work with all of them (to make things consistent and easier to change in the future)

410

I get the impression that UMZ #9 still being featured is not really doing anyone any good. Its score dropped to -16. It appears to be blocking a more important post from showing up, too.

410

19:31

We've seen some longish meta posts recently, but a Money mod kept it short, saving everyone some reading time.

410

19:42

Oops, fennec was not a mod. @Magisch

Magisch

wasn't?

410

Yeah, I just checked money.stackexchange.com/election

I should pay more attention to the presence of diamond.

Magisch

I rolled it back

I assumed it was already gone

my bad

Sklivvz

20:13

Hey @Oded

Oded

Hi ho, @Sklivvz

Andras Deak

nostalgia party!

Sklivvz

Hey, we have a slack full of nostalgia. We are just crashing yours!

Andras Deak

I'm delighted :)

user58

Please don't crash it, it was expensive

Ælis

20:41

Is this question getting close votes? I don't want to answer something if it's off-topic

peterh

@Magisch The problem with such take-overs is this: earlier or later you will expel everybody. And then, they start to be bored, seeing only the faces of each other. Then maybe you expel each other. But, it is more likely, that the SE will be over.

@Ælis No, only downs.

Gwideon

hello

M.A.R.

@Gwideon hi!

Roijan Eskor

hi

peterh

@Ælis You should not answer something if it off-topic on your opinion. The opinion (close votes) of others don't bind you, unless they are at least 5 of them.

M.A.R.

20:43

Hi new faces

Hi peterh

Sklivvz

0

A: Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?

I'm a moderator on Skeptics, and I'm suspending my activity as a moderator, too. Like Mad Scientist, I also have lost my confidence in Stack Exchange and see very little hope for a significant improvement of their relationship with us, the community and the mods. As Mad Scientist said: The...

3

John Dvorak

o/

Gwideon

Um i'm sorry if asked an off topic question

Andras Deak

hey

M.A.R.

@Ælis It has two by now, but if you do answer it before it closes (likely a few hours at least, considering moderation strikes), it's pretty okay.

Gwideon

20:44

I was wondering about it. I asked another chat about that question and they said to post it here

Ælis

@peterh You can see that with only 2000 rep? I thought it was 3000, like the "casting close vote" priviledge

M.A.R.

Meta isn't and shouldn't be so hard on that. If you can help someone by going the extra mile and answer or edit, nothing should stop you

Magisch

@Ælis its at 2 close votes atm

only people with 3000+ can see pending close votes

Gwideon

sorry

Ælis

Alright, thanks for the information :)

M.A.R.

20:45

@Gwideon No it's pretty okay

Gwideon

okay

M.A.R.

The only wrong off-topics on meta would be Android Listview, VBA and selling Viagra.

Magisch

I think it's on topic

fwiw

if it gets closed, I shall vote to reopen

Ælis

@M.A.R. Also, it means that I probably have to answer tonight if I want to answer. I was hoping I could wait until tomorrow (European hours) :/

Gwideon

it's kinda my first time posting on meta so yeah

Roijan Eskor

20:47

I don't see any particular reason @Gwideon's question should be off-topic.

Magisch

Skeptics is down to 2 active mods

Ælis

@Gwideon I agree with the others, I find your question interesting and useful too :)

M.A.R.

@Ælis My estimation is probably not that reliable; I can't get myself to read anything on the site these couple of days so I dunno how fast things attract close votes. And that is regardless of the fact that there might be a dispute over whether it should be closed.

peterh

@Ælis From 3000 can I cast close/reopen votes, but I see them already from around 300

M.A.R.

@peterh 250, only on your own posts

Kevin B

20:48

o/

Gwideon

okay um thanks

M.A.R.

@Gwideon If you find something is worth discussing you should very rarely refrain from doing so, downvotes and close votes are feedback but not hindrances on metas.

peterh

@M.A.R. From 250 can we cast close/reopen votes to our own questions; probably this is also the limit, from which we can see close/reopen votes on the question of others.

Gwideon

okay. I wasn't quite sure how to format my question so i did my best but I do admit it's probably not that good

Sklivvz

@Magisch basically one, Jamiec is almost inactive (but I was doing about 50% of the work)

Roijan Eskor

20:51

@Oded And now it's the lowest scoring undeleted question on MSO. meta.stackexchange.com/questions?tab=votes&page=6039

Kaz

Oded

I was just about to post that :D

Kaz

It's official. Most downvoted post ever. In 5 hours flat.

Oded

Impressive

Roijan Eskor

I was waiting around to see if it happened for a while, lol

Gwideon

20:52

I'm sorry but all of this drama kinda makes me sad

410

@RoijanEskor The page is 404 for me, possibly because of a different page size (15/30/50). A more robust way is to link to search by score: meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=+score%3A..-300

Roijan Eskor

@410 Curious! I wouldn't have suspected. Thanks for the tip.

410

Yeah, the site giving a URL that says "show page 6039, no matter what the user's page size is" is not expected behaviour.

john

@Gwideon don't be

Oded

twitter.com/OdedCoster/status/1179861981282672640

Gwideon

20:55

I don't like seeing people fight

Oded

Fights are sometimes necessary.

If you don't fight for the things that are important, they might be taken away from you.

Gwideon

yeah I know

but still it makes me sad that it's neccesary

Magisch

Sometimes we forget

nothing is granted

M.A.R.

@Gwideon Couple of unfortunate things:

Magisch

and everyone meets the day they have to fight to keep what they love

Gwideon

20:57

yeah

user206222

Hi, I have a quick Stack tech support question. My network profile has been out of date for two years now -- it has the wrong pronouns and the wrong username, and has for quite a while. But the "update profile info" menu doesn't appear to be working -- the page just refreshes without anything else happening. Does anyone know why / how I can get my network profile to accurately reflect my current profile?

M.A.R.

1. These are hard times and that's not a surprise to anyone, but it means that all other discussion will either be drowned or not thoroughly discussed because people are so tired.

Gwideon

sadly yes

M.A.R.

@Aza Scratches head That worked for me, lemme check

ArtOfCode

@Aza If you update your profile on a site and hit "save and copy changes to all", does that work?

user206222

20:58

@ArtOfCode Nope! It updates on all individual sites, but not the network profile.

Oded

@Aza try updating your oldest profile (first site you registered on)

ArtOfCode

@Aza hm. Any userscripts running?

Catija

@Aza cough

M.A.R.

Do you see this?

user206222

...it, is fixed? @Catija waaaas thaaat youuu.

Transcript for