Tavern on the Meta - 2019-10-02 (page 1 of 3)

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12:04 AM

Their signature play is the three-point combinator, a recursive offense which is guaranteed not to halt and continues accumulating points until the buzzer.

1 hour later…

1:18 AM

@Feeds They would be called Stefans.

1:43 AM

> He would be found lying on his back, on his bed, with a copy of Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead (which would prove he had been a misunderstood superman rejected by the masses and so, in a sense, murdered by their scorn) and an unfinished letter to Exxon protesting the cancellation of his gas credit card. That way he would indict the system and achieve something by his death, over and above what the death itself achieved.

3 hours later…

4:30 AM

Recent mess side effect. One of our (sobotics) bot server is down. :chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47459757#47459757

1 hour later…

5:40 AM

Sonic thanks to include that on question.

user351483

No one has been assigned to cover The Workplace as yet. It seems a bit odd that the simple act of temporarily adding a diamond to some other moderators could have been done. Right now, I have no idea if anything is being done there.

@Snow I'm watching it. Temporary mods can be a complicated thing... when sites have elections, they expect that they have some say in who has access to their personal data... We don't like overriding that.

user351483

Yeah, I completely get that. I'm not sure it occurs to many users that mods have access to their account details.

Also, in a charged environment like this, there's some risk that the people stepping in there might ... have trouble being accepted as replacements, particularly as we'd be more likely to choose people who are mods elsewhere on the network over creating new mods.

... which means the mods may not know the particular policies on TWP.

user351483

Yes, I assumed there would be some established moderators covering. I suggested this in a Meta answer. I'll let the guys over there know that coverage is happening. I've not seen anything major yet, except for Killisi on Meta.

user351483

5:57 AM

I'm asking people to keep on flagging/reviewing and to raise any major concerns into The Water Cooler, so you might want to use that as a triage.

user351483

And thanks for looking in there, it's appreciated.

6:11 AM

@Catija So what is the game plan there now? Have CMs take over until elections can be scheduled?

Not sure. We've had a few offers to help mod sites that need it... but we haven't gotten that far to deciding what we're doing to do.

I'll be watching it for now... and a few other sites.

@Snow ... Not y'all's fault for the situation. <3

user351483

I could post a Meta on TWP asking if people are ok with moderators coming across until elections are held.

Got to go... crying baby... late night.

@Snow They could ask DarkCygnus. He came in second in the February elections

bit late for an usual call up, but he got 32% of the first choice votes there so arguably thats the closest thing to a mandate anyone has

user351483

No, we need active moderators from other sites.

6:16 AM

@Snow that's the usual procedure. That's how they do it in SO

Not after six months.

Yeah, usually like 1-2 months out

waffles

Agree. But the current situation is not normal

The entire thing is a mess from top to bottom

user351483

6:31 AM

It's the easiest thing to dig the knife in, it's harder to help SE sort this mess out. Even harder for them to be in a position to regain trust.

It might be worth setting up a comment archive for TWP like we have on IPS and SO so they can be flagged in a coordinated way to avoid flags piling up

That doesn't need mod permissions and enough comment flags will poof a comment automatically

user351483

But that leads to orphans. TWP generates large comment streams, it's not just the odd one that can be removed.

Yeah, but right now these are just piling up

I assume y'all were doing some patrolling anyways and deleted a lot without them being flagged

Comment archive is just a chat room where all comments get inline-linked as they appear. There's one for MSO: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/197298/…

Is Microsoft buying SE?

user351483

6:46 AM

News to me.

And me. 🤣

I can't imagine your job is much fun right now cat

I’m guessing this is a game of telephone. We’re rewording the CoC a bit but that’s all. I’m not aware of any major changes other than the CEO stuff.

I get to talk more with my coworkers than usual... which is good since I like most of them.

It's definitely not fun watching SE disintegrate from the outside

at least it looks a little that way

I take time to vent but I’m not going to be particularly effective if I’m moping. There’s got to be hope. I love this network and I’m willing to fight to keep it together. If that means patching it up when someone slashes the tires, I do what I can.

If I want the network to be a better place, I need to do what I can to keep the good people around... the loss of mods is incredibly painful and I respect them all for their convictions. I’m not sure I could do the same... but I also focus on the needs of my sites over my personal needs.

7:00 AM

Hopefully someone will put out a public statement today or do something. Right now the discontent just festers and there's rampant speculation everywhere

So, while I respect the ones stepping down, I relate to the ones that tighten their suspenders and get down to work despite us.

user351483

7:24 AM

Mods stepping down here means "Something went wrong that really needs to be fixed", and that SE->Moderator trust and communication does need fixing. No moderators (as far as I know) resigned with the Twitter/HNQ change (SE Dev notices tweet, says "Yeah, great idea, I'll do that right now" and makes change without anyone knowing about it). Nothing changed after the Twitter thing. I really hope that things change after this.

The best SE can do now is, storm A51, capture an alien and make them a mod.

@Snow I wouldn't bet on it. It's all been part of a downward spiral, where the backlash causes the staff to be defensive which causes further backlash. For an indication just see the meta.SO debacle

I hope something can break that cycle, because it's heartbreaking to see

@Snow I'm not sure any mods really want more on their plates at the moment, for one thing. Everyone is stretched pretty thin.

Journeyman Geek

yup

It's a bit of a catch 22. Elections right now would be pretty disastrous

Journeyman Geek

7:35 AM

@Magisch and quite honestly - that's one reason we need to stick together rather than look for the next explosion

can you imagine the amount of protest votes and candidates

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch yup

What is HNQ?

Hot Network Questions.

Journeyman Geek

Hot Network Questions

So...

7:35 AM

They show up in the right sidebar of the site.

Journeyman Geek

FROM ENTIRELY PUBLIC SOURCES

As I understand - the big wider plan would be to get SE to IPO

3

No one's said anything about the nature of the IPO

So If anyone says MS is going to buy SE either they know something absolutely no one knows

I find that to be unlikely

Journeyman Geek

And one should never EVER play poker against Joel

If they do a public IPO I'll buy a couple shares as a keepsake

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch tbh, if anyone really wanted to make a bit of a stir...

So tech companies IPO in two ways

there's what google and some other companies do

Public Shares are non voting

in a way, these are good cause if your management is good - its a lot harder for someone to buy a bunch of shares and do... well nonsense

If its not dual class.

Well if a bunch of users bought shares ;p

we could probably ask difficult questions at shareholder meetings. Especially if we banded up D:

7:40 AM

Is there a minimum % you have to have to show up at a shareholder meeting

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I'm not actually sure

Because I could totally see myself buying like 1000$ of shares and then showing up there :D

@Magisch With 1000$ of shares it's not required. :D

Why some people capitalizes every single word in question titles? Why some people double the space after full stop?

Journeyman Geek

Oh

Title Case

I'm sure there's an actual rule for the latter

Title case is a thing. The double space is a stylistic thing.

It's a holdover from typewriters.

Journeyman Geek

7:47 AM

What they said.

@user58 so both are good?

Journeyman Geek

grumbles about whippersnappers and senility, then goes yell at a cloud

@john both are acceptable but not always compulsary

@john It's basically down to personal preference.

Don't go into the title case debate now ... we have enough on our hands

@JourneymanGeek I'm running on three hours of sleep, we'll see how this goes

oh and it's a fast day, so no food or water

Journeyman Geek

7:48 AM

@user58 if you can, catch some

ow

@user58 I remember when I was young enough to do that

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I routinely have days like that ;p

These days when I don't adhere to my 8 hour per day sleep schedule i'm grumpy and disagreeable all week

@Magisch It wasn't voluntary.

Journeyman Geek

then i spend the next few days recovering ;p

7:49 AM

I couldn't get to sleep, I had an upset stomach all night. :/

@JourneymanGeek :7936757 thx

@user58 thx

:/

I like my new purple

@user58 huh Mith is this you?

You forgot avatar change...

Anyhow.... drama aside.. how was Rosh Ha Shana?

I was kind of preoccupied the entire time, so not great.

@user58 preoccupied with what? If I may ask?

With SE/SO drama?

8:04 AM

Basically, yeah. I've been kind of embroiled in it for over a week, and it rather directly impacted my site, so...

I was confused about their validity because I find both horrendous and I'd often edit them out (if there's anything else to change) and the change'd get accepted.

But I think it's good practice for music titles.

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow I suspect it was terrible for a lot of folks

too much stuff in a single container: i.stack.imgur.com/54K8F.png SE keeps breaking stuff ;)

8:34 AM

@rene lost soul? wat

@john a user script, just like the timeline and cv-pls

they are all competing for space

@john see also: stackapps.com/questions/8122/saviour-of-lost-souls

Awesome.

@rene Is it the same as cv-pls?

@john no, cv-pls offers a wide range of moderation option to send requests to a chatroom. It is maintained in the context of socvr: socvr.org/tools/userscripts

8:57 AM

@user58 sorry to hear...

Where you stand now with all of this?

What do you mean by that?

@JourneymanGeek huh? Rosh Ha Shana? It means "New Year" in Hebrew. ;)

@user58 you suspend your mod activities for now like other mods?

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow I'm aware

Pretty sure JMG is aware of that and is saying that the holiday was ruined for a bunch of people.

Journeyman Geek

thank you

I appreciate your help, truely. I'm even worse than expressing myself than usual ;)

9:00 AM

@user58 oh.... yeah, Monica for sure, indeed.

I didn't let it reach my personal life though.

@JourneymanGeek all good :)

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow I think for everyone who actually cares

its been about people

@Shadow There aren't really many mod activities on the main site. I've essentially left those in Gallifreyan's hands. I have not gone on strike from my chat moderation duties (which would be much more of a blow to SE than my main-site duties, I suspect) out of a sense of responsibility to the community. The community has put faith in me, and I don't want to betray it.I don't give a flying squirrel for the company at the moment, but I'm sticking around for the community, for the time being.

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow the company as an organisation basically isn't going to be much help here

its going to be about the folks in it, and their ability to convince people to do the right thing

Here's hoping for a statement soon

monica edited her posts to post her full view of the situation

looks bad for SE indeed

@user58 yeah, quite the same as me. But why hiding all your sites?

9:07 AM

Some screenshots of the TL were leaked. I'm taking a couple precautions.

@Shadow Someone uploaded screenshots of the whole conversation in the TL and shared them around the web.

ouch

Still.... those who want will find you. :/

Hi all.

Hi

@Shadow with a giant S ...

this is some real vindictive crap. at least they could have blanked the names

9:24 AM

You're held to high standards. You shall not leak from mod only rooms. period.

I mean, in most cases where I was invited in a mod room, I was told to not share anything out of it, more then once.

It's quite a standard condition for private rooms.

Exactly.

It's also literally the #1 rule in the TL.

And possibly the only hard-and-fast rule.

This is not shite because the company's position gets compromised by this

this is shite because it paints a target on the backs of nameable moderators who trusted the chat would be secret

10:11 AM

@rene nah

lol

Turns out "nah" means "silk"!

Mushy.

@user58 knows what I talk about

LOL

@user58 nope, it's without a "ו"

I inferred it ;)

And it's almost משיח :D

user351483

Looks like Sara Chipps answer was locked again. I was kind of wondering whether over 1,000 downvotes might necessitate an edit to "some folks upset".

10:19 AM

Lock is to prevent nasty comments, not downvotes, but yeah...

user351483

Yeah, I get that. I was using that answer as a measuring stick of public opinion.

I think a comment lock was a requested feature

@Shadow it should've unlocked by now

@rene there'd always be a good reason to lock votes too

@Snow now it's a measuring stick of mod private opinion

10:37 AM

@AndrasDeak I'm not claiming otherwise

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak I think at some point it's just piling on

Once you break the record for number of downvotes - I think the message sent is pretty clear

Votes are not about sending a message. They are about expressing opinion.

Locking a post for this long robs late users from mattering

10:53 AM

@Snow I don't think public opinion can go below "In the shitter"

@rene for long loong looong time, yeah

@AndrasDeak not sure, the topic is still burning

@AndrasDeak it means "We don't care what you think" which is true for too long.

I think Sara never posted a single comment reply, ever. Correct me if I'm wrong?

(even before all of this)

oh wait she did, back in May

Hi @rene, I don't love your tone but I'm going to go ahead and answer anyway in the spirit of teaching. We have done extensive research here at Stack Overflow that has shown tone of the site and interactions with other users is one of the main reasons new users don't participate. At every point we should approach our users with a welcoming voice, that means everything from our "Ask a Question" page to, yes, system messages. — Sara Chipps ♦ May 9 at 17:54

<3

>3

any meaning to that? ^

;)

user351483

-122

A: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured]

I’d like to add some context to the “why” we are doing it. Tim, kindly, wanted to shield me from ire, however, in taking this job I signed up for this. I'd like to come here, own my decision, and deliver this feedback. Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know th...

user351483

She does seem to embrace the idea of bearing unpopular news.

11:00 AM

ironically, starting a comment with "I don't love your tone but I'm going to go ahead and answer anyway in the spirit of teaching" would be seen as massively condescending in my culture

@Snow she's a director so she might be more than bearer

Like, intentional insult level

@Magisch in any culture

@Magisch true. Not welcoming and unfriendly... that's what became of SE management.

flower

I'm not going to assume bad faith. It might have been written with the best of intentions

11:01 AM

little flower

@Magisch oh of course

@Magisch no, it's not.

I'm uninterested in speculating about the motives of employees so I default to assume good faith.

okay this isn't helping

user351483

Damned it, I'm still bitter. I should stop this.

11:03 AM

imagine that you're chocolate and suddenly that's a good thing

and it's kind of a rule to do that here so if you can't please at least hold off, there's enough negativity here to create a black hole regardless

user351483

I have to admit though, that the night after having my diamond removed, I slept better than I have for weeks.

Sure. Feel free to trash.

@Snow removed at your request, I hope?

@Snow I always liked you as a mod though

user351483

11:04 AM

@Shadow I was the first, maybe the second to tender my resignation.

@Shadow #3 meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333965/…

Still hoping SE fixes this mess so you can come back

@Magisch how long does it take to fix lost trust?

@user58 it's not, but when the bad stuff reach such levels, even the Tavern gets some of this, we can't avoid it. I can tone down with some effort, but not prevent others from coming and sharing bad things.

I'd say "very long"

11:05 AM

@AndrasDeak no clue

@AndrasDeak oh

And that's with trying, and trying well

@Shadow Right, but we can still act like adults even if other people have betrayed trust.

@AndrasDeak Personally, I don't know if the lost trust is ever going to be regained.

I'm not sure they'll try and I expect they won't try well (but always hope)

@user58 frustrated adult is still frustrated, hard to control it from leaking out

11:07 AM

More likely scenario is shutting down metas, "where it all started"

we were told only CMs' begging prevented that before the hot meta scandal

Someone with the goggles through which firing Monica like that was the best course of action will probably see this shitstorm as a byproduct of "a meta echo chamber" before doing any introspection

After all this is non-negotiable +1

Running SE like a normal sillicon valley soc tech company won't work. They dont have fancy moderation algos, or call centres of outsourced mods. Community goodwill is vital and necessary to its success

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak the end result would be everything going out of control

No argument here

Journeyman Geek

Meta is usually a safety vent

And without meta the power users will go away

Journeyman Geek

11:15 AM

Most outsiders wouldn't care about meta

No meta = quora

Journeyman Geek

And I'm going to assume. Hell I know there's folks who get why things work

And we can help them at least try to fix things

And that needs reasonable voices

→ 3 messages moved to Trashcan

user image

Now THAT brings back memories :D

Good memories I hope?

11:27 AM

Yup.

I don't think I've seen our 3 names together for years.

Pekka? Wow.

it seems the fires burn so bright they bring people out of their caves ;)

Maybe the genuine handbag sales are slowing down for him.

2

user194636

This seems like an important comment to me:

user194636

@Aza I think us doing something in a way that was obviously going to cause a significant backlash surrounding both the action we took and the perceived lack of planning, management and communication violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. That we'll continue will be significant. The end ideal result is when people are able to take actions like the one you took, and connect them with our reaction, in a way where our reaction was the best conclusion. If that makes sense. — Tim Post ♦ yesterday

"in ways that they didn't think were possible", I still think that should've been "in ways that we didn't think were possible"

or I just don't get what he's saying

user194636

11:32 AM

it took me a few reads

my english isn't good enough to parse this

I think I wasn't sure because the rest of the comment wasn't going down a "we're surprised it blew up" path, which would've been merited with my suggested change

I ended up concluding that it mostly says "people didn't think we'd do it; but we did it and we'll keep doing it"

user194636

Yes. SE knew exactly what they were doing, and are willing to pay any price to get it done.

The ridiculous part is that all of the shitstorm is about how they demodded Monica, not that they did. They could've done this in a way that's fair and transparent to her, and none of this would have happened.

It's two different subjects (groups being referred to), one group is "they" and the other group is "we" - just replace "they" and "we" with a made-up name and reread it.

11:35 AM

@Rob aaah, good point, thanks. In context of the answer I guess

hmm, or maybe not

"violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible" -> if I read it again that's still unclear, it could be people not thinking it were possible. Oh well, it doesn't really matter.

I read this as
1) We knew exactly how this would play out
2) It was important for us to do it exactly this way anyways, because of reasons
3) We hope sending the strong message of doing it anyways following your resignation will be viewed as being on the right side of history in due time

user194636

The word perceived is significant to me

In essence, they felt Aza's resignation was such a devastating thing that they set out to fixing the issue in the most drastic way possible, possibly in hopes of disenfranchising and/or scaring off anyone else who would hold reservations with the pronoun changes

That is my 3rd(5th?) reading of that sentence

So...problem solved I guess

I might be misreading it though, ESL and all that

user194636

11:38 AM

@Magisch I don't think it would be fair to ascribe too much weight to one particular person being the catalyst for action. Pretty sure Tim is using Aza as an example of a much more general issue.

Simplified: "I think us doing something, in a way that was going to cause backlash, has violated people's expectations. We did it anyway, and that's significant. We're sticking by our actions, and that's also significant. When people take significant actions [like the one Aza took] we want them to be able to see that we've responded in the best way possible."

Journeyman Geek

Uhm

@ArtOfCode thanks, that makes more sense

user194636

@ArtOfCode You should offer your services to Tim as a speech writer.

Journeyman Geek

Guys. So... This isn't just one mod quitting

11:39 AM

I think it's important to note here that blaming Aza for this mess is not going to be constructive, or, indeed, accurate. While her resignation was almost certainly a factor, it was not the sole factor, and opening her up to the backlash that she's bound to receive if you're not careful about how this is phrased is going to be seriously bad.

So basically, they cared so much about the reasons behind aza's departure (and possibly similar concerns raised to them) that they accept the consequences of disenfranchising a large number of mods as necessary and worth it

@JourneymanGeek yeah, that's been clear even from Aza's post

Journeyman Geek

And it's really dangerous to ascribe this to one user and event

@AndrasDeak

@Rob

11:40 AM

"... violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. ...".

**=**

"... violated John's expectations in ways that John didn't think were possible. That Jane proceeded anyway is significant. ...".

Journeyman Geek

@user58 thank you. That's kinda what needs to be said

@user58 obviously, aza is mentioned in this conversation only as a standin for writing "and everyone else who had the same concerns"

That's dangerous, though.

I see your point

This means though, they'll be doubling down

So we likely will see another huge wave of resignations, following by ... I don't know

@user58 I don't think anybody was. But doesn't hurt to reiterate.

11:41 AM

There's plenty of actual backlash in the other direction, so why not share the wealth.

@Magisch one active mod staying on SO

@Magisch not necessarily. Sticking by your guns doesn't mean doubling down.

Backslash? Back splash? I never know how to spell that.

user194636

@Magisch Appointment of replacements who will perform the required duties.

@Rob thanks, I'll stick with Art's version

11:42 AM

@ArtOfCode Anything but full reversal + public apology will be percieved as doubling down

user194636

@410 Backlash is correct.

nevermind, you spelled it already

fronts are already very much hardened

same thing as "whiplash"

i.stack.imgur.com/Jl204.gif Sticking by one's guns.

user194636

11:43 AM

Animated gifs are annoying.

user194636

I wish they had a pause button after playing the first dozen times.

user194636

Thanks.

(there are usually browser extensions that let you freeze all gifs by default and things like that)

It takes a few seconds to unbox it, especially on a mobile phone.

The terms used to describe the departing mods around the net were... Inclusive, if that's the right word.

11:45 AM

@Bart NO WAY

Smiting @Bart for... dunno what

:D

No smiting for you! Gimme back my stick.

user194636

@Magisch They are. But on the other hand, SE can't exactly open a debate having said "the CoC is not up for debate".

@PaulWhite what CoC? :P

in The Meta Room on Stack Overflow Chat, 12 secs ago, by George Stocker

I unlocked Sara’s answer. Please don’t make me regret it.

user194636

George needs to make his bloody mind up.

@PaulWhite I don't know. I haven't read the transcripts, so I don't know if they have a plausible out to write this all off as an overreaction. But it's a moot point, they won't.

11:46 AM

@PaulWhite he isn't being inconsistent

@AndrasDeak I agree. I don't care (yet?) for the change in CoC the one and only thing that triggered me is what they did to Monica.

comment-motivated locks are temporary by design

@Bart throwing stick to @M.A.R.

@AndrasDeak new new new 2.5

user194636

@AndrasDeak I've watched meta.SO a bit over the past few days. That's just my perception.

user194636

@AndrasDeak The CoC as written.

11:48 AM

@PaulWhite Many things can be said about George's actions but he's not inconsistent.

@PaulWhite the CoC as written hasn't been violated by anybody of importance

I'd recommend popping over there and talking to him directly about it, though, instead of talking here about someone not in the room.

user194636

@AndrasDeak My impression differs from that, but ok fair enough.

👩‍💼🚌

viagra ads coming in 3... 2... 1...

user194636

@AndrasDeak Well apparently Sara disagrees with that assessment.

11:50 AM

Thanks for finally admitting open mouthed that you allow animated ads now. What about the ad content? What are the limits? Viagra ads are allowed? (I'm totally serious) — Shadow 36 secs ago

George is one of the most calm, level-headed mods around, always willing to hear you out. Even in cases where what's coming at him can be classified as abuse. Just wanted to put that out there before someone else gets added to a naughty list.

@PaulWhite from what I can tell that's about forthcoming changes to the CoC

@AndrasDeak I've just come across the transcript here. My concerns are definitely not unfounded.

@user58 well, yeah, people will always jump to conclusions. But Aza has made it clear enough both in comments and there in chat that they've nothing to do with any of this, so who wants to come to educated conclusions won't think they're responsible in any way. And you always can't do anything about idiots.

user194636

@AndrasDeak The quote am I referring to is "...would not use stated pronouns, which violates our current CoC. We are soon publishing an update to the CoC to even more explicitly cite misgendering users or moderators as a violation."

11:54 AM

I guess I haven't paid too much attention to all the answers and press releases, thanks. I haven't looked at the CoC since it came out, I'll take a look later

user194636

So it is probably more accurate to talk about a clarification of the existing CoC.

user194636

At least that is how I think SE would describe it.

My personal 2c is that this coc update is massively overblown

Not relevant anymore

(For me at least, dunno about others)

It's hardly an update. More like a clarification.

user194636

11:58 AM

@Magisch The size of the (pre-?) reaction is probably a record though.

I know maybe 5 people on here I suspect could prefer non standard pronouns and in these cases it is not that hard to get used to using them. I would never suspect that it will take anyone significant adjustment and everyone I know that uses non standard pronouns has been forgiving and appreciative when you even make the effort. I don't buy the boogie-man type arguments where people use unicode stars or something absurd to game the system. I think it is reasonable to expect everyone to make

an effort to include pronouns where requested. It is such a small thing for us to take heed of, and can have big impacts in welcoming people into our community that would be great assets for it.

@PaulWhite as I said I believe it's not about the CoC, and not about Monica getting demodded, but about how it happened.

these are my 2 cents on the debate and I'll call it there

user194636

@AndrasDeak I agree with you.

user194636

Nevertheless, the two cannot be separated now.

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