Tavern on the Meta

rene

18:27

@ShadowWizard nice knives

Andras Deak

18:44

thanks for getting back to me! It was very clear-cut, started at a few minutes before noon UTC, and seemed to have ended at around 2 PM UTC (though I had to leave so if there were further issues afterward I wouldn't have seen them). I saw issues both on laptop (firefox dev edition with noscript) and mobile (vanilla firefox mobile). Another Hungarian I know wasn't affected. There's 1 user who was: https://chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7487221#7487221.
They seem to have gotten rid of the issue at the same time as I did (just before the previously linked chat message). There's…

Adam Lear

Sounds good :) Glad to hear it resolved itself, whatever it was

Andras Deak

oops, sorry for the multiping

EKons

best issue ever

Andras Deak

heisenbug is best bug

EKons

heisenbug in Greece might mean unpaid overtime... dunno for sure

Andras Deak

18:51

it doesn't help that I don't have the slightest clue about how The Internet works so I can't help debug beyond "it don't work"

EKons

you mean SE, well, if you were able to help, maybe you should've been preparing to defend in court...

Andras Deak

I'm sure there's a broad range of possibilities between "should go to jail because knows things he shouldn't" and "knows what a request is"

EKons

"what a request is" doesn't have to do much with SE, but "knows exactly what the problem is because he studied the source code" might count as hacking

and not white-hat hacking in this case

Andras Deak

yes, hence why I was talking about how The Internet works, rather than how SE works

You can help debug something if you know how to use it. I can't put together an MCVE when chat.SE is crapping out if I can only see that it doesn't work.

(broad sense of MCVE of course)

EKons

broad sense? so it doesn't even have to be code? ... :P

I think I can do that if needed...

Andras Deak

19:01

MCVE can be a generic concept in any kind of problem solving...

Journeyman Geek

19:22

@AndrasDeak well

if I needed to troubleshoot - I'd ping the site. Try traceroute...

Andras Deak

I could've pinged, I usually do that. I was too busy complaining that things didn't work that I forgot :P

Journeyman Geek

ping tells you if it work

traceroute or pathping tells you were it dosen't work

EKons

but... but... free rep!

Andras Deak

I suspect the server would've pinged. I got various timeouts. Page loads would hang in the "making TLS handshake to chat.*.com" phase based on what firefox told me while the page was trying to load

rene

Maybe FF tried to contact the CA to verify the CRL and that failed?

Andras Deak

19:28

Something like that might explain why both firefoxes of my had issues, but that would mean much more people should've been affected. Also shouldn't I have gotten some security warning or something instead?

rene

I dunno, I'm always good to come up with unlikely failure cases.

EKons

well... it's not like an "unlikely failure case" will necessarily be patched if it's not too serious or hasn't noticeably happened yet

user287113

19:53

Can you tell me why the heck the following question has been downvoted?

user287113

-4

Q: Where can I ask questions on mobile computing (in general)?

For example, I would like to ask the following question "What is the difference between range-free and range-based localization methods for mobile devices"? In which Stack Exchange website should I ask this question and, in general, questions on mobile computing topics? See e.g. this paper.

user287113

Dearest and most esteemed members of The Tavern, while I realize that you are probably not the ones who downvoted my question I beseech you to have mercy on me and share your great knowledge: what problems lie in my question, that others may have found it objectionable?

ArtOfCode

...dude

Andras Deak

lol

ArtOfCode

leeetle bit excessive ;)

Shog9

19:55

well, that got flagged

user287113

Me, excessive?

user287113

lol

Andras Deak

tooth aches are offensive

Shog9

Imma edit that message and then answer your question

ArtOfCode

we all know that the reason for downvoting is losing your keys, not having toothache

:P

user287113

19:56

@AndrasDeak According to whom? You?

EKons

heh

Andras Deak

Tim lost his teeth?

2

Shog9

Edited.

user287113

I simply don't get why it was downvoted and someone thinks it is a duplicate. Seriously?

user287113

Other people are getting mad and I need to accept it?

user287113

19:57

If someone tells me "It was downvoted because it sucks"

Andras Deak

@Shog9 sounds quite passive-aggressive now, brb downvoting

user287113

Ok, but tell me why it sucks.

Shog9

geez, be patient. I'm all worn out from that edit, gimme time to type

Catija

Well, if you used more than two fingers for it...

Andras Deak

Shog bespoke flag-saving edit used up, recharging... [**** ] 40%

user287113

19:59

@AndrasDeak lol, you make me laugh.

user287113

This is all useless conversation

user287113

It is a waste of time

user287113

And no actual useful problem was solved

Andras Deak

wait wait, Shog is almost done typing an answer

EKons

Shog worn down... first step of tragedy

yesterday, by EKons

> At 6:08 PM, 1/10/2019, Shog has officially been pronounced dead. The cause was revealed to be physical fatigue.

:P

Shog9

19:59

Ok, so let's start at the top:

> Where can I ask questions on mobile computing (in general)?

that's already pretty vague before the parenthetical

and then the parenthetical implies the question is probably even less well-defined than the previous words might imply

user287113

@Shog9 Why vague? What is vague there?

Shog9

@nbro "mobile computing" covers a vast range of topics at this point

user287113

Mobile computing

Mobile computing is human–computer interaction by which a computer is expected to be transported during normal usage, which allows for transmission of data, voice and video. Mobile computing involves mobile communication, mobile hardware, and mobile software. Communication issues include ad hoc networks and infrastructure networks as well as communication properties, protocols, data formats and concrete technologies. Hardware includes mobile devices or device components. Mobile software deals with the characteristics and requirements of mobile applications. == Main Principle == Portabili...

Kevin B

wut

Andras Deak

I'm sure Shog appreciates the clarification

user287113

20:01

I'm asking where can I ask question on mobile computing

user287113

What is unclear about it?

user287113

Is it the verb "ask"?

user287113

I don't know

Andras Deak

I think you should ask the question on a site for computing (and tag it with [mobile])

Journeyman Geek

@nbro its "mobile computing"

Shog9

20:01

yes, and I'm saying "mobile computing" isn't a topic, or even a field exactly, it's a broad classification of topics and fields

Journeyman Geek

are we talking android, idevice, wrist-top abacus?

Catija

Windows Phone?

user287113

@JourneymanGeek Seriously? What is vague about it? General means vague?

EKons

tbf, we have many sites under the category "Technology"

user287113

Only because I am not asking about Android, is it vague?

Shog9

20:02

That doesn't make it bad, but we're not big on vague questions here - we like specifics. So, ok, you're interested in mobile computing - maybe there are specifics in the body of the question? But then it says (in general), which kinda implies... No.

user287113

Yes, I am asking about the field: mobile computing

Journeyman Geek

@nbro there's specific android, apple and windows phone sites.....

EKons

but what exactly do you want to ask?

user287113

@JourneymanGeek I don't care

Andras Deak

perhaps you should start on Interpersonal Skills

Journeyman Geek

20:03

@nbro what's the actual question look like?

Shog9

So folks are prejudiced right from the start. Thinking, "ok, this guy probably doesn't have a specific question". You don't really want prejudiced folks reading your question, but that's what you got. So, what do they find when they open it?

user287113

I provided an example question "What is the difference between range-free and range-based localization methods for mobile devices"

Shog9

> I would like to ask the following question "What is the difference between range-free and range-based localization methods for mobile devices"?

Journeyman Geek

ah...

errrr

Shog9

Hey, that's somewhat more specific!

user287113

20:03

Which is a question that people who work in the mobile computing field should be able to answer

Shog9

Not a lot more specific, but at least somewhat.

Journeyman Geek

yup. I haven't a clue though

Shog9

So, two steps back, one step forward, follow?

user287113

I provided an example question. But I am interested to ask many other similar questions. Like how is localization performed in mobile computers?

Shog9

Here's the bit where, after starting off on the wrong foot, then trying to regain your balance... You really need to take a confident step forward: include the rest of your question. Or at least some details.

IOW, not just the title

EKons

20:04

also, Google is your friend sometimes

user287113

Whatever

user287113

I am sick of this community

Journeyman Geek

lol. I googled it... and wonder if its really a CS question

user287113

I will delete it

Andras Deak

How many downvotes did you have before "How is that a duplicate of mine? Seriously? Also, what your problem? Why downvoting it?"?

Journeyman Geek

20:05

also

user287113

This is probably the less friendly community of all communities on SE

Journeyman Geek

ooking at the question...

gnat likes that close reason a lot

I'd personally consider ignoring it

Catija

Yeah, that's a really bad dupe target.

user287113

Here a lot of angry coward people who hide behind the screen.

Journeyman Geek

its not really subjective

Catija

20:06

(for this question)

user287113

We have this discussion for nothing

Kevin B

Lol

Journeyman Geek

@nbro I know you're annoyed but its unfair to tar people with that brush

user287113

@JourneymanGeek Not all. Here's the only community where people seem to have tooth ache all the time

Journeyman Geek

Sometimes there's no simple answer, and we really are trying to help

Andras Deak

20:07

Yeah, can confirm. I'm the cowardest of all.

Journeyman Geek

@nbro well, win them over. Be clove oil.

Andras Deak

Is clove oil good for toothaches?

user287113

I won't delete it, because that will make some of you happy.

Journeyman Geek

here's the thing. We're trying to help

yup

user287113

You are not trying to help at all

EKons

20:08

we are...

Journeyman Geek

really? I just told you the dupe vote was bogus.

EKons

we've suggested some steps to follow, that will help a lot

user287113

Let me give you an example to show you that you are not right

user287113

Ok?

Journeyman Geek

I mean

Andras Deak

20:09

I'm not helping at all. But I usually reflect the effort of people who come to me.

user287113

Supposed I had asked the question "Where can I ask questions on quantum computing (in general)?"

Journeyman Geek

the folks here are trying to help

but we're getting a lot of attitude

user287113

Would it have been vague?

Journeyman Geek

@nbro people might point you at the QC site - with caveat because it exists

Andras Deak

nope quantumcomputing.stackexchange.com

user287113

20:10

@JourneymanGeek If the site doesn't exist, does it mean that my question is vague?

user287113

Seriously?

Andras Deak

quantum computing <<< "mobile computing"

Journeyman Geek

but sometimes things are not always as straightforward

Andras Deak

@nbro ugh

time to suck on a lozenge for this ache of mine I guess

EKons

as we've said enough times, "mobile computing" isn't one thing, but a whole range of topics

Journeyman Geek

20:10

@nbro no, but it may need some work to figure out the best place for the question

user287113

@EKons Hah. I didn't know about this (sarcasm). What about quantum computing? Is it just one thing?

Andras Deak

yes

MEE

@nbro Meta means murder. This is what the founder of this network wrote.

EKons

yes, QC is one topic

John Dvorak

Is it though?

user287113

20:12

@AndrasDeak First, look at my profile to verify that you probably know more about quantum computing than me to assert your statements!

Andras Deak

@JohnDvorak ssssh, yes it is

OK, nbro

Catija

@nbro More that, if the site doesn't exist, and we want to help you find a good place for your question, we'll probably need more information so that we can see if your question can be shoehorned into the scope of an actual site. Otherwise, you'll have to be happy with the answer "At this time, there's not a place for your question." Asking for detail is our way of trying to find somewhere for you to ask your question.

user287113

@Catija I would be happy with the answer "At this time, there's not a place for your question.", if that's the case.

user287113

We just waste a lot of time in a useless conversation.

Andras Deak

Note that the conversation was bound to be useless in the way you started it

EKons

20:14

^

John Dvorak

+1

user287113

@AndrasDeak Not exactly. I wanted to understand why the question was downvoted. I still don't understand it. There's the tag site-recomendation. Can you tell me why?

Catija

@nbro If that specific question you want to ask would be on topic somewhere, that benefits you and our network. You get a place to ask and possibly get an answer, and we get a good question for our network.

ArtOfCode

@AndrasDeak can we... not... antagonize, please?

Andras Deak

I didn't. I mean I did earlier, but that particular message was completely factual

either way I've lost interest

Kevin B

20:17

🍿

John Dvorak

Not everything that is allowed is useful, @andrs

Andras Deak

close enough

user287113

@Catija I understand that. But if there is still no site where my question would be on-topic, does it mean that my question is bad or off-topic for this website, where there is the tag site-recommendation?

Kevin B

a question being on topic, useful, and even stellar, still doesn't protect it from drive by downvotes.

Andras Deak

Shog tried to explain it why it is.

Journeyman Geek

20:18

crap is vague though ;p

user287113

Useless talks. Keep talking if you want. I have things more important to do. If someone really "discovers" (like a scientific finding) why my question was scientifically downvoted, please, let me know, otherwise, please, do not tag me.

Catija

In general, there's nothing wrong with site recommendation questions, no. There are a few reasons why your question may have been downvoted:
1. It's not clear what you're asking. Remember that users on MSE aren't necessarily experts in every subject we cover but we are (sometimes) experts in what subjects the network covers. So getting a better idea that a non-mobile computing expert will understand will help get you to an answer.
2. Sometimes people downvote questions that are duplicates because they feel that if you'd put effort into your question, you'd have found the existing one. It's …

Shog9

Kick'd

I too have more important things to do, which is why I stopped talking

Coming back to find you insulting me for trying to help you is messed up dude

Journeyman Geek

I'm struggling to stay awake ._.

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek Messed up sleep schedule?

Journeyman Geek

20:30

Work

last night shift till end feb tho

EKons

sleep schedule not always perfect true

John Dvorak

sleep schedule? How do you plan a thing like that?

EKons

secret methods of crossing fingers

Magisch

by going to sleep at roughly the same time every day

I found not doing it really really messes up my quality of life

Adam Lear

I go to sleep at roughly the same time every day... unfortunately it's usually around 2 a.m., so not very helpful for functioning.

EKons

20:34

nothing compares to the 4:51 AM I did once :P

Journeyman Geek

its 4:35 now

only staying awake cause its a weekend and I have a podcast in the background

EKons

wait how does dog stay awake so early

Journeyman Geek

@EKons alas, my job's swing shift

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@EKons Poor sleeping habits.

Journeyman Geek

so I sleep all day and work all night

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

20:36

Wat, wait, wrong ping

Journeyman Geek

so Literally I work until about 8.30, get home around 10, sleep till 1, lunch, sleep more...

EKons

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ but... dogs aren't supposed to have configurable sleeping time other than jet lag, are they? ;P

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@nbro The only toxicity in the transcript I'm reading is yours. It's a bit contradictory to visit the chatroom of a site you're sick of.

Adam Lear

@EKons Eh, I do that every few weeks ;) My record for staying up, though, is something like 68 hours

EKons

what noooo

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

20:38

@EKons That's doggist!

Journeyman Geek

@EKons not much choice lol

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Or humanist. Can't decide

EKons

I see your job is pretty... good luck keeping stuff together :P

Journeyman Geek

lol

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Good luck keeping yourself together

Journeyman Geek

20:40

hopefully nothing happens

falls apart

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Did you just wish for the heat death of universe?

Journeyman Geek

Its probably not a forever job. Just long enough for something better ;)

EKons

~~ew dog intestines~~ aw, dog died RIP

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

What is wrong with said dog?

@EKons I think he'd turn into skittles

EKons

well... his nose could have a worse fate...

if you know what I mean...

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

20:43

I see you're trying to ruin my dinner

Try harder

user287113

@Catija Regarding 1. I think that if you don't understand something, it doesn't mean it is unclear. It is unclear to you, yes, but because you are ignorant (literally). I don't think my question is unclear at all, but maybe this is my opinion (at this point, on this website). Regarding 2, I also agree with you. But, again, if someone finds the duplicate of my question, I will be happy to delete the question!

EKons

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ you don't know what I mean... :P

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@EKons Yeah I just assumed the most horrific things possible and made a generalized statement

That covered most

EKons

you have an Xbox?

Journeyman Geek

@nbro you already did. And its also on you to make things clear as much as its on others to understand.

user287113

20:45

@Shog9 I didn't insult you at all. I didn't attack anyone personally here.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@EKons No but I'm a good man

Journeyman Geek

@nbro you're using a really agressive tone in general

EKons

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ oh phew you don't have dog nose axis controls :P (note: not actual dog nose)

user287113

@JourneymanGeek Aggressive doesn't mean insulting.

Journeyman Geek

you might find you have an easier time if you take a step back and realise calling people ignorant isn't nice,

@nbro it can be

Catija

20:46

@nbro I 100% understand what you're saying with #1. I wouldn't say it that way but ... I think what's worth remembering is who you're talking to. If you're on a site for physics, you can get away with using jargon to some degree or not fully explaining things but MSE is for users of the entire network, not just single subjects, so you need to tailor your question for that audience. Yes, it takes more work, but it means that more people can actually help you if you do that.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@nbro No but it means people aren't having fun talking to you

user287113

If you ignore, you are ignorant. This is the definition of ignorant.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Definitions don't provide all the possible nuances and connotations.

user287113

Anyway, I didn't attack anyone personally, unless you attack me. I hope this is clear.

user287113

@Catija I agree. But I even provided an example question. What should I have provided more? Should I have described the whole mobile computing field? I don't know. I tried to be clear, but whatever.

Magisch

20:49

You'd have a lot more success if you took down the attitude a couple notches

MEE

@nbro We don't say you had bad intentions but according to our code of conduct terms that feel personal even when they're applied to content aren't okay either.

user287113

@Magisch I think people attacked me by downvoting my question without a good reason, so I am little pissed off, yes.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Checking out @nbro's question

I swear gnat's running a script that randomly chooses front page questions and closes them as a dupe of that poll post

MEE

And as others have said. Try to formulate a full question (with body and not just title) and include it inside your post.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Having said that, this is possibly the reason for a couple of downvotes:

@gnat How is that a duplicate of mine? Seriously? Also, what your problem? Why downvoting it? — nbro 8 hours ago

To be clear, the tone, not challenging the duplicate

user287113

20:52

What does the tone of the comment have to do with the question? Only because it was me who asked it? This is not a very good way of evaluating the quality of questions. But who am I to give an opinion here.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

The rest, one possible legitimate reason is merely providing the title for said question, but pretty sure @Cat said that and you're not willing to include more info for some reason.

user287113

Anyway, I will leave you. I have other stuff to do now.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@nbro I don't think an aggressive attitude is limited only to users called "nbro".

So it's not about you, but people do have the impulse to downvote if they feel engaging isn't going to end up improving their mood.

@nbro Seriously? Good luck then.

Catija

@nbro Well, I think one of the points Shog was making earlier was that you weren't specific about what sorts of mobile systems. Even if the answer to that is "all mobile systems", that's detail. Or, if you're only interested in phones or laptops or other stuff...

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@nbro You're (hopefully) asking (to understand) why you got downvotes instead of an answer, and you bail out in the middle of a conversation with people who take their time to explain how things could turn out differently, and people who invested their time in trying to help you. You don't need to call people names to actually have insulted them.

MEE

20:57

@Catija is there any chance to get at least a comment from you (CMs) on this post of mine without using a bounty or twitter? I would really appreciate some response like No, no way or We might consider it.

Catija

Sorry, I don't meant to keep calling you back, though. :) I'm sorry you had a bad experience but I hope we can help improve it in the future. I appreciate your willingness to talk about it.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

For varying definitions of "willingness"

@MEE No, no way we might consider it

MEE

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ hey, stop making fun of mee. :)

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

BTW what does MEE stand for? Is it a long "me", or Meditating Extraterrestrial Elephants?

EKons

the opposite of "hey, stop making fun of mee. :)" :P

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

21:02

Four husks, very ugly

Aliens are always ugly

MEE

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Some pun. Next time ping me or I won't see your reply... :D

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@MEE Ooh is it a middle-of-work thing?

EKons

@mee is sure it's just a pun itself :P

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Programmers generally suck at acronyms though, no?

Catija

@MEE We're aware of the question! I haven't had a chance to read it yet, though.

MEE

21:04

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Well I thought it would by funny to call myself "me" on a website but SE requires at least three characters for user names.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

OOP, Gif, ALGOL

Lamest pronunciations of the century

MEE

@Catija ok thanks for a response. :) So no need for a bounty then runs away to hide the saved rep

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@MEE I would have gone for "me, dammit"

EKons

comma not allowed :(

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Mecomma dammit dammit

EKons

21:07

bah... lame

sd f

rene

waffles

sd del

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@EKons System to blame

rn del

Rene is unresponsive

EKons

yeah he realized what he did and he's hiding

a common way to hide is stacking waffles in front of you ;)

flower doesn't need too many waffles to hide

(psst @rene enemy's gone)

rene

21:47

del-pls 20k+ discussion off-topic / cc @bar @sha @glo how to calculate last 3 months in a dataset with the help of dateadd and max‭ - Insh‭ 2019-01-11 20:49:55Z

Shog9

23:05

OH FRABJOUS HOUR! CALLOOH! CALLAY!

...wait, that doesn't rhyme

Tinkeringbell

Oh hey... I'm still awake

Catija

callour?

and myself

23:23

Surprisingly awake... and morning!

still sleepy though, so I'm gonna sleep again again...

Shog9

@Catija callar.

Journeyman Geek

Half hour left on my shift

Shog9

a watched clock never boils

...wait...

and myself

23:39

@nbro I was the one mentioning a possible duplicate. Sorry that I couldn't be more specific because I posted my comment on mobile (searching and copy/pasting the dupes is not my cup of tea). Now that I'm on PC... I've found this, this, this and this.

That's why I believe the title is a duplicate of something, but the particular question might be on-topic on other SE site unrelated to mobile computing, which I haven't (and didn't have time to) research.

Journeyman Geek

23:58

3 min :p

Practically half an hour

and myself

3-minute cooking!

Transcript for