Tavern on the Meta

terdon

17:00

The answer to the post I just linked to there was from a Canonical employee, and he didn't mention anything about there being a requirement.

And I've railed against that stupid bar often enough, and often in the presence of or directly at Canonical employees but was never told there was a requirement.

I've always understood that SE wanted it because it would drive traffic to AU and Canonical wanted it because it made them look as though they were offering a high quality Q&A site under their banner, giving a more seamless experience to their users. So, a win win as far as those two entities were concerned.

Taryn

17:29

@rene you should remember all the things...much disappoint :P

Shog9

Some things I was trying to say yesterday, but perhaps a bit more clear:

0

A: Can we get a comparison of new user comments?

I have no particular opinion on this request, other than to note that we'd need a LOT more data to draw any conclusions from it; this is a pretty narrow funnel. But I wanna touch on an assumption that seems to be present in both your proposal here and in a few other comments I've seen today: the ...

Thinking of this as a problem of old users beating up on new is... A good story, but reality is much messier with fewer pure victims and a lot more occasional villains.

Shadow Wizard

Meaning?

Shog9

It's extremely likely that the problem with comments is inherent to the medium itself. That our comment system affords some level of rudeness, engenders frustration, promotes an unwelcoming attitude... Among many of the people using it, regardless of their role.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Maybe it's time we moderated comments like posts?

@Shog9 I feel so thankful that by coincidence my first post on Stack Overflow happened to meet the guidelines.

Shog9

With revision histories, unlimited edits, reputation for usefulness, order based on votes?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

17:43

@Shog9 "moderated"

not "treated"

Shog9

Meaning what

You threw that word out there assuming I'd know what you meant, but clearly I do not. Quoting the word doesn't magically imbue it with extra meaning.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 With revision histories, better flagging (giving moderators the ability to manually dismiss flags, and provide a reason for dismissing), potential comment ban for having too many comments deleted for being rude, etc.

@Shog9 Patience

I was typing

Shog9

Revision histories already exist - they're accessible only to moderators, as only moderators can edit comments after a short 5 minute window.

Moderators can manually dismiss comment flags already.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 The FAQ says that they have "no revision history".

Shog9

I don't know what value providing a reason for dismissal would provide in this context.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

17:47

@Shog9 Since when was this implemented?

I thought mods marking a flag as "helpful" without deleting the flag were using a hacky workaround, marking it and deleting it, and then manually undeleting it.

Shog9

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog there's no public revision history. Because, as I said, you can't edit comments past the first five minutes.

Oh, and there's already a potential comment ban for too many rude comments.

Granted, it involves being banned from all other forms of activity as well.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 So then can you edit the FAQ? (I always suspected that there was a revision history of some sort, because the number of edits is shown publicly.)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: what are the benefits of narmadeshwar shivling pooja? by user10058717 on hinduism.SE

Shog9

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you seem to be missing the crucial point here.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Only prevent comments while allowing posts.

rene

17:48

Can someone advice on this suggested edit? I'm inclined to approve it but can't really find where it is said that nobody want to add another answer.

Shog9

If I can't edit my comment, if I can't fix a problem when it's pointed out... Then all this other stuff is meaningless.

"Look, you can clearly see in the revision history how rude Shog was when this comment was posted. And now here, where this large empty area clearly indicates how he kept being rude, persistently, willfully, even as dozens of comments piled up afterwards"

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene I rejected it; see my reason.

Shog9

I can delete my own comment. That's it. And... At that point, revision history doesn't add anything, because the comment is gone.

rene

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog how harsh, but yeah, that reason fits. Thanks

Shog9

Now... I could imagine a system where we treated comments - the entire thread of comments - as a versioned document. Where deleting a comment created in effect a new revision. This would be useful.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

17:51

@Shog9 So the FAQ's statement that there is "no revision history" is inaccurate. There is a revision history, but it's not public.

Shog9

ok... can we move on?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Okay...what do you think of this semi-related post (10k-only)?

Shog9

I still have no idea what your point was there.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 In that post, or by my message?

Shog9

either/or

we discussed that post for an hour if I recall

Never did identify what problem you were trying to solve

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

17:54

By the way, the user in question was the one who last commented on it before deletion. Their comments were being discussed here, and a quick check revealed they were leaving rude comments on other sites too.

Shog9

Ever have to weed a garden?

You kneel down and try to yank out a bit of crab grass or something... And it breaks off above the root.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 If I report the bad comments on one site, if that site happens to be one where they haven't left that many, they will just dismiss it as "too small a problem". If it's one where they've left more, they may be issued sanctions on that site, but then take their rudeness to some other site.

Shog9

Now... you can stand up, go find a shovel, and dig away ruthlessly trying to extract that root, destroying your garden in the process... Or you can move on to the next weed.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

On the other hand, if you consider their overall comments on all SE sites, you'll see they leave consistent rudeness everywhere, which IMO warrants a network-wide suspension.

Shog9

You have a big garden. There are a lot of weeds. If you spend 5 minutes on each one, you're not going to get done.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog This isn't your call, is it.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

17:57

"IMO"

Shog9

yes, everything we write is IMO

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Okay, on to something else. You deleted this post. Now that I've removed the link to the question, will you consider undeleting it?

Shog9

Do you suppose no one has wanted you suspended, ever?

Should we shrug and suspend people as soon as someone suggests this possibility?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 No, investigate overall.

Anyway, "on to something else".

Shog9

It is critical that folks flag problematic comments. This provides information to the moderators when an investigation is needed.

Also, I'm not discussing that post. Or undeleting it.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

17:59

@Shog9 Why not?

Magisch

Evening people

Shog9

"Don't feed the trolls" isn't just something you do when you're not bored.

Catija

@Magisch I just ate lunch...

Magisch

@Catija Timezones, eh!

Catija

No... grilled fish tacos and a small salad.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

18:02

I'm about to drive to the LAX airport to pick up my cousins. What a situation Cathay Pacific put them through.

Magisch

Interesting meal

Catija

Pretty standard Texas fare.

We taco just about everything.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Pretty standard San Diego fare.

@Catija You make your own tortillas?

Catija

no

I was also at a restaurant, so it'd be weird to make tortillas.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Ah, I thought you made them yourself.

...and brought it to work.

user168476

18:07

@Catija Yum!

Shog9

fish tacos do not... age well

Magisch

fish anything does not age well

Shog9

I expect bringing them to work in a shared office might attract some unhappy gazes

user168476

(Also, I recently learned how to make my own flour tortillas - it takes a bit of time, and I can't really get the knack of making them very large yet, but they're fun. Mind you I don't make tacos much, they're hard to scale to one person)

Catija

I rarely have time to cook at this point... maybe in a couple of weeks... but... still... day-old fish and microwaves are the workplace equivalent of nuclear warfare.

user168476

18:09

@Catija So true.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Ash I can make rotis

delv-pls 20k+ meta.stackexchange.com/questions/312440/…

Martin James

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog What did they do? Cancel a flight?

canon

@KevinB you've inspired me to downvote indiscriminately. Let the reaping begin.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@MartinJames Delay them by 4.5 hours in Mumbai, then put them onto a very late connection that would arrive very late at night here at LAX. We called Cathay Pacific and they were willing to rebook them onto an earlier flight, but there were two problems.

Kevin B

?

success?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

18:18

@MartinJames First, their bags wouldn't make it onto the earlier connection. This wasn't very much of a problem as they're staying with us, and they'll deliver their bags here to San Diego. Second, and the bigger problem, the airline wasn't willing to page them and let them know that they've been rebooked. Thankfully they connected to the Wi-Fi there, and we could let them know.

I called Hong Kong airport's staff in the hope that they could get ahold of them, but they kept hanging up on me before I could say anything.

canon

@KevinB :)

Kevin B

what did i do

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer: How to recover viber messages after reinstalling Viber? by maxfield034 on android.SE

canon

oh, I don't remember but I'm sure you deserve blame for something

so, which ascii-smiley best conveys a dead-pan tone? :| perhaps?

Kevin B

😐

canon

18:25

ew, emoji

for every emoji you see, there are thousands in the walls...

Kevin B

😷

Fabby

@canon :-|

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Let us pray this is accurate. That incompetent fraud doesn't deserve any support from us. The only valid answer to any question is "this project is an anti-intellectual farce and any money you have invested is doing harm", and "no, there is no good justification, they just decided to discard decades of prior work because of NIH egoism". — user134300 2 hours ago

user168476

19:23

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Looks like this was deleted. Not sure why it was linked here, I'd've just flagged it, as that's my understanding as to normal process for these sorts of things.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Wanted to provide a more permanent archive

Shog9

Someone really doesn't like EOS I guess

Kevin B

posting it here is like a super flag

user168476

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog archive? Why? (On second thought....don't worry about it, I don't think I need that explanation.)

user134300

Turns out I had EOS mixed up with one of the other acronymed token projects on the network, so as usual I was yelling at someone who had nothing to do with my actual concerns.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

19:33

@user134300 If you want I can flag my message above to have it deleted

Kevin B

lol

user134300

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It's okay.

Shadow Wizard

@KevinB nah... more like letting off steam. It can be ignored here as well. ;)

Shog9

"other acronymed token projects"

it's TOR ain't it

dammit, TOR!

user134300

They're running a long game -- nobody suspects.

Shog9

19:41

...or maybe Craft CMS?

I always suspected they were a bit... Crafty...

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 and HNQ... and CoC... guess the list will just grow.

(of three letters acronyms ;))

Soon we'll have two @Some here.

Shog9

missed opportunity to write "TLAs"

user134300

SMH

Shog9

omg, wtf lol?

Shadow Wizard

HSM?

Hardware security module

A hardware security module (HSM) is a physical computing device that safeguards and manages digital keys for strong authentication and provides cryptoprocessing. These modules traditionally come in the form of a plug-in card or an external device that attaches directly to a computer or network server. == Design == HSMs may have features that provide tamper evidence such as visible signs of tampering or logging and alerting, or tamper resistance which makes tampering difficult without making the HSM inoperable, or tamper responsiveness such as deleting keys upon tamper detection. Each modu...

Shog9

19:46

PCMCIA

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I had to install an update on my laptop to fix a security issue with my TPM

On the other hand, it's almost time for me to head to LAX

Kevin B

> How can I correct a reviewer's opinion?

Shadow Wizard

@KevinB go back in time, re-educate them from scratch?

Mark Amery

20:02

Cute little bit of drama earlier on MSO. User with a chip on his shoulder posts an answer which ends by complaining about being censored and suspended for a previous post giving feedback on the CoC (they weren't). Mods point out that he was never suspended. He responds by demanding that they suspend and pledging to "force them" to do so if they don't comply. They decide it's best to suspend him, and also delete his post making false claims about a previous suspension. Prophecy fulfilled.

Catija

And he changed his username to 1984... for good measure.

Though, I'm guessing it's a matter of confusion. That user is suspended... on MSE, though...

So, if he thinks the mods are the same across the network, then saying he was suspended is actually correct.

Mark Amery

Huh. Good catch!

Oh yeah, Andy pointed it out in the comments

Makes me slightly more sympathetic to the guy :/

Shadow Wizard

@MarkAmery he's also suspended on MSE.

Catija

That's what I just said, :P

Mark Amery

@ShadowWizard yep, Catija just pointed out the same :)

Shadow Wizard

20:09

(think that's what he meant by previous suspension)

@MarkAmery oh lol

Catija

NEWS BULLETIN: Shadow Wizard Ignores Catija - More at 10.

Shadow Wizard

9

Mark Amery

Man. Rereading the latest welcome wagon post, there are so many issues I take with it...

I should probably post a Meta rant :P

John Dvorak

pls do

Shadow Wizard

Suspension in 10.... 9... 8....

Mark Amery

20:19

Perhaps the most fundamental of them being the idea that comments that make some "feel unsure or annoyed" are inherently a problem! Anyone who tells me I'm wrong about something that I wasn't very sure about in the first place, regardless of their tone, is going to make me "feel unsure or annoyed". All the very best comments I've received, pointing out genuine mistakes I've made, are in that category.

But apparently them constituting 7.5% of comments on the site (based on the staff's labelings) is officially considered to be inherently unacceptable

Tinkeringbell

@MarkAmery Wouldn't that be slightly dependant on context? I guess if I were reviewing comments for rudeness, 'feel unsure' actually means that I don't know if something is rude or not...

Mark Amery

Huh, I thought it was meant to be "unsure" kind of like insecure

as in, this comment was cause me to experience a sense of self-doubt

whereas you're parsing it more like "I'm unsure how to feel about this comment"?

Tinkeringbell

@MarkAmery Yep..

Mark Amery

Well okay, there's another issue for my rant :P

I feel so unsure / As I take your hand and lead you to the dance floor youtube.com/watch?v=7DrLQBM8cfo

Tinkeringbell

@MarkAmery I mean, the smiley face helps me interpret it that way too... a frowned look, a raised eyebrow... all seem to imply a 'I don't really know what to think of this' attitude.

But it's kinda conflicting with the 'I feel fine or neutral'.

Mark Amery

20:25

Yeah, I'd've thought your interpretation of "unsure" comes under "neutral"

Tinkeringbell

Unless neutral means no doubts about not having doubts? :P

Mark Amery

That seems like a plausible interpretation too :P

"The "science" part of social science is... a notoriously rocky road", as a wise person said recently in this room :P

Apparently we don't even agree on what question the study participants were answering :P

Tinkeringbell

@MarkAmery I guess that's a very accurate description :)

@MarkAmery Did the participants know :P That's an even more interesting question :)

Mark Amery

Indeed.

I mean, I kind of suspect they all knew

It's just whether they knew the same thing or not

Tinkeringbell

Well... some people don't really think about why they're picking certain choices, and go with gut feeling on questions about feelings ;)

Anyway, I have to drop off. Ping me so I can find your rant tomorrow? :)

Mark Amery

20:30

Wilco

Catija

21:56

@rene meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/370833/how-do-i-thank-editors :)

πάντα ῥεῖ

Interesting thing, yes.

Mark Amery

22:43

Here you go @Tinkeringbell meta.stackoverflow.com/q/370838/1709587

Shog9

23:24

16

A: Etiquette for thanking an editor

Send him a thank-you basket filled with bratwurst, sauerkraut, and beer. Editors love those.

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