Tavern on the Meta - 2018-07-09 (page 1 of 3)

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user134300

01:02

> Our mission is to build an inclusive community where all people feel welcome and can participate, regardless of expertise, identity, or language.

Excuse me while I throw up.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

01:22

chaos-emerald-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/182061/… (@Shadow @rene)

@user134300 I guess you're not a fan of my username...

John Dvorak

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Better not mention it...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Too late

John Dvorak

Being nice is nice. Kicking everyone out for using the wrong words is not. Do you know how to increase the population of any city quickly? Outlaw sanitation. The count of bacteria will soar.

At least I can always uBlock SO from the realtime tab. Or, you know, start debugging other people's code again, in race against #4s.

because not answering = being an overzealous closer

John Dvorak

01:55

... I guess I should just learn how to use the search function and set up some bookmarks, like everyone does.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: Is the muslim allowed to "waste" his time? by Tammy Perkins on islam.SE

ɥʇǝS

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I thought it was satire..

John Dvorak

That. The thought that Sonic actually likes noobs more than experts disgusts me.

... am I allowed to say that something disgusts me?

Journeyman Geek

eh

There's a balance

If we're seeing new users only as a problem, then we're basically building communities that will eventually die of attrition

the trick is really to get rid of the bad behaviours , and try to keep the good newbies

2

on the other hand, as experienced users, there's a few terribad ones too

John Dvorak

02:12

by experienced users, do you mean high-reputation users? There are some who gained theirs by answering lots of low-hanging fruit - questions that shouldn't actually be on the site

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly punctuation marks in title: Proving $\gcd{(x^a -1, x^b -1)} = x^{\gcd{(a,b)}}-1$. by Suha Roy on math.SE

Journeyman Geek

02:28

Well, users who have been around a while, and arn't closing said low hanging fruit and terribad questions

Somewhat Memorable Name

As always, the (rhetorical) question is: who are we being inclusive to?

Journeyman Geek

@SomewhatMemorableName That's actually a good question.

Especially taking into account the anonymous nature of SE users

or, who are we excluding and why?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: Why are there no hurricanes in the southern Atlantic basin? by Marcus A on earthscience.SE

1 hour later…

SmokeDetector

03:51

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad ns for domain in answer: Bayes Theorem Breast Cancer by Bablu on math.SE

SmokeDetector

04:06

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title: ★ {1 Bitcoin=$513O}[Paypal account USD100=O.OO4bitcoin](BTCnGame.com) 5minutes transfer,100% trusted by avsdwagew on bitcoin.SE

1 hour later…

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

05:18

@JourneymanGeek Definitely agreed.

SmokeDetector

05:35

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body: Where is the line drawn on cheating Darwin/genetics? How does one accept this? by Runner Ice on philosophy.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Best practice for Constant Class in Java by David Designer on codereview.SE

1 hour later…

SmokeDetector

06:53

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: How to judge the quality of education of an art school? by Leo90 on academia.SE

SmokeDetector

07:21

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Migrating an Outlook .pst file to Gmail by Eva Brown on webapps.SE

user310756

07:32

user image

user310756

user image

user310756

babies' sleeping in the sun

Shadow Wizard

08:32

@Shog9 no need for any research, the answer there is just fine.

2

A: Do answers left on questions that subsequently get deleted impact the Answer Ban criteria for those users?

An automatic filter is in place to ban questions and/or answers from IP addresses or accounts with a history of extremely poor posts. To avoid bypassing the filter its internal rules are a secret, but it is partly based on downvotes cast by other members of the communities. ... Yes, ...

The exact details for post ban is secret, I know and agree with it.

Sorry that I disturbed you, but the question was "Does something count towards the answer ban?" And you did not give any direct answer, but rather said "Don't worry, you won't be banned".

@JourneymanGeek that's the point.... with the new CoC, SE should not exclude anyone at all.

For example, now in Stack Overflow we exclude non professional people who ask questions without research first. That would change, and they will be welcome to post their questions with the new Code of Conduct.

Their questions will still get downvoted and closed (hopefully), but in a nice and friendly way.

(i.e. without any snarky comment like "Make your research first")

Magisch

08:49

@ShadowWizard I would think that people who are unable or unwilling to abide quality standards and site rules will be excluded by default?

We even have fully automatic mechanics for excluding people deemed not an asset to the community

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch no... the CoC is very clear: "inclusive community where all people feel welcome and can participate"

Nothing about quality or standards.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: How often do I need to change my oil in a VW TDI? by Maksim Yaroslav on mechanics.SE

Magisch

@ShadowWizard The intent of SE is also very clear. People who don't contribute usefully eventually get automatically prohibited from posting

So that is exclusion, is it not?

I'd feel pretty excluded if I was permabanned

(for the purposes of this argument I do not count 1 question every 6 months as not banned)

Shadow Wizard

Subtle difference: you are welcome to try, and not forgiven when you fail.

These days, people are not welcome to even try.

Magisch

I think you're mixing cause and effect

Shadow Wizard

08:55

They see the hoards of downvotes, closures, comments and think "heck... I can't even try".

Magisch

Which is actually pretty true

You can't try (without failure to be certain) without doing a lot of research first

Shadow Wizard

So if they'll see a shiny Code of Conduct welcoming them to try, they might just do it. :)

Magisch

And maybe lurking for a bit ... getting used to the customs, reading a whole bunch of material and looking at examples of how it's done right. (even that is treachorous, since handling is sometimes inconsistent that way)

@ShadowWizard It won't stop them from getting ground into the dirt once they do try though

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch of course, and that's where it will all fall and bounce back on SE.

Magisch

Thats why I hope the efforts to improve first question quality bear fruit. Otherwise the new CoC is just setting people up for failure and disappointment

"You're so welcome to try and ask here" "Actually no, this question is bad and now closed. Keep it going and you'll be banned forever."

I'm actually really glad SE felt unwelcoming when I first started. Saved me a lot of embarassment from asking my 2 week newbie questions about how arrays work in C and getting ground into the dirt by the C tag community

Shadow Wizard

09:00

heh, perfect example just now... question missing "what have you tried" on SO. In the past, I would have posted "What have you tried? Please share" comment, but I won't post such comments these days.

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard That's ... not how that's supposed to work I believe :P

Magisch

Me either, but I won't pretend I used to comment a lot. Rather, this new wave is somewhat assuaging my guilt about not commenting.

Ultimately it comes down to even your best effort might not be enough not to get banned and downvoted here. And that's a hard pill to swallow.

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell well from what I see "what have you tried" is considered "snarky", hence forbidden.

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard Hmmm... And that's just the 'what have you tried'? Or is there usually something before/after that too, that's considered not very helpful?

John Dvorak

The problem is, we aren't supposed to care about prior attempts. For separating pearls we have crystal balls.

Martin James

09:04

@Tinkeringbell :7083926 Usually, a very bad question:)

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames :P

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell the question itself implies the OP done something wrong/bad, so they might take it as accusing them. That's how I see it. Of course I might be wrong and take it to the extreme, but until being told otherwise officially, that's how I see it.

Tinkeringbell

So, looking at the one Shadow just linked... It looks like there's some info on what they've already tried? So are we trying to figure out how they tried putting that stuff in global.asa?

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell You'd want them to show their attempt

Not just say "I have tried"

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell yeah the proper (and only) way is by having code in global.asa

Magisch

09:06

The question in general is also pretty broad

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch not really, creating global functions isn't really broad, I did it a lot in the past.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch So, there's probably a problem with how they used global.asa, and we want to see the code they used so we can help better?

You know, that sentence still doesn't hit the max char limit for a comment :P

Magisch

@ShadowWizard I mean as in, helping with their problem is impossible without seeing their attempt - short at coding a full example and explaining it, which is too broad for the answer scope, imo.

Tinkeringbell

Although I think if you add the code and there's something wrong with it, SO starts complaining about not being there to review code?

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell not review, fix.

Magisch

09:07

So maybe a wash between OT - MCVE / Too broad / unclear

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard Even worse :P

John Dvorak

@Tinkeringbell that's where "minimal" in "MVCE" comes in

Shadow Wizard

The question is clear, just missing past effort part.

Magisch

unclear because it is unclear why their attempt did not work, and answers can only guess at that

Tinkeringbell

@JohnDvorak I don't hang around SO a lot, most of my Java questions were already answered and I'm using some obscure proprietary language :P

Shadow Wizard

09:09

OP wants to have a function that they can call from any .asp file without having to include any other file.

@Magisch answer can just give full example from scratch.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating words in answer: Take data from one field and insert into new row by Maria on unix.SE

Magisch

That would be code writing service territory (too broad), no?

And also not as helpful to OP as pointing out the specific mistake they made (which might be transferable)

Shadow Wizard

@SmokeDetector naa

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard Recorded answer as an NAA in metasmoke.

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch I don't think so. Would post such answer myself, if I could find my past code...

(16-17 years old project, dead by now.)

oh wait....

Martin James

09:11

@ShadowWizard Yeah - I had a problem with that. 'All welcome! (except violent racists and raving mysoginists)' paints a bleak picture, though. So, what do you say??

Shadow Wizard

@MartinJames no "except"... and racists and raving mysoginists are also welcome as long as they don't show their racism or whatever it is that mysoginists means. (didn't check yet. :))

Tinkeringbell

I'm going to say if it's about posts like the one just discussed... Welcoming might mean encouraging people to stay and use SO to get their answers by using it as a resource.

Not as something that they can use to ask and get answers, but as something they can use to look up answers

John Dvorak

@MartinJames violent racists, raving misogynists or anyone whose comment is considered mildly down-putting

Martin James

@JohnDvorak lol

Magisch

I still think this all is cooked a lot hotter then it is eaten

e.g not much will change besides some people who'll need to learn to ease just a tiny bit off the biting sarcasm

John Dvorak

09:17

In other words, we're "merely" giving the law enforcement just one more WMD they shouldn't use (but can, legally)

Magisch

not like we have a choice in the matter, though

Feedback has been duly given, it's up to stack what they'll do with it (my guess: not a lot)

John Dvorak

Huh? Have you tried telling people how they should behave rather than drawing a faint line right next to them and then shooting when they cross it?

Martin James

@Magisch There's not much that can be done while new account users have the impression that 'welcoming' applies past the point where they ask bad questions:(

Derpy

I'll be honest. All this "change" imho it is just reacting to those posts April made.

John Dvorak

@Derpy yup

Shadow Wizard

09:22

@Derpy that's... beyond obvious.

Obvious Overflow. :D

Martin James

It's a tightrope between posting shareholder bromides and pissing off the set of curators who will get most of the stick for objecting to rude/abusive questions:(

Derpy

what I actually meant is that right now none of these changes feels like something they want to do but just plain and simple damage control / public image safeguard. Which, coincidental, started right at the same time as Teams

Magisch

@JohnDvorak If it was me I'd have gone with another course of action

Most importantly, I'd have focused on improving new question quality. The one (and in my opinion only tenable) way to ease the snark and condescension is to make new users better at not providing targets for it

John Dvorak

I can already feel the red dot burning a hole in my forehead

Derpy

and I don't feel that "be nice" because you have to will work on the long term. Nor I believe that will be "be nice" at all in the first place

Tinkeringbell

09:28

@Magisch Aren't they doing both at the same time now? Doesn't seem too bad of an idea to me either, since what could happen if you take away the targets but don't tell people to be nicer? They might find new targets...

John Dvorak

@Tinkeringbell Who the heck infests their house with flies so that he can have a good ole swatting session each evening?

Martin James

It would be 'interesting' to see some of the exmail received by SO from the new account users who objected to the so-called 'unwelcoming, hostile' SE/SO. I know it won't happen 'cos confidential, but I'm betting that many are far from any kind of constructive criticism and nearer to gross profane abuse:(

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell I believe fundamentally that a lot of the snark and condescension is caused from burnout from having so much crap shoveled on you all day. I don't think many volunteers are in it just to snark at people. More of a cause/effect side occurence

shameless self plug btw:

The far more likely outcome (in my opinion) is that people will reduce the amount of comments they make and use the niceness-agnostic tools of moderation to clean up instead. So instead of getting 5+ comments telling you why and what's wrong with your question, you might get nothing, -6 + closed and no further actionable feedback. I'm unconvinced that's going to be better then some snarky yet relevant comments. — Magisch Jul 6 at 7:31

2

Martin James

@JohnDvorak Well, there were those electrified tennis-racket things. They were fun:)

Tinkeringbell

@JohnDvorak Well, let's take something a little bigger than flies: They're closing the holes through which the mice come in, by that new question wizard and stuff, and they're also saying we should use traps that allow us to release the mice back in the wild, instead of outright killing them and having the site smell like death and decay

John Dvorak

09:31

@MartinJames but they aren't nice

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Oh sure, I've been on that side too...

IIRC, I took a break.

Derpy

@Tinkeringbell and then "Mr Brown" will use those traps. Not because he care at all about the rats - after all he has been feeding them homemade poison till yesterday - but just because he now risks to get a pricey fine if he doesn't

John Dvorak

At least they can't suspend us for leaving for ... well ... for ... good?

Magisch

Well they could but that'd be pointless

Tinkeringbell

@JohnDvorak Why would you leave? Because you can't snark at people anymore, or because the questions don't improve?

Martin James

09:38

@Magisch It's like schoolyard bullying. The staff etc. can do nothing because there's never any evidence or witnesses. Eventually, you have had enough of the provocation and threats from a gang and fight back. Result? Five fine, upstanding students all say you started the fight and you are in an interrogation room at the cop shop trying to avoid a criminal conviction:(

Magisch

The one really nasty schoolyard bully I had got expelled after I broke his nose in not-at-all self defense

So I can't relate to that

John Dvorak

@Tinkeringbell Because closing is pointless, commenting is a minefield and not being able to find stuff to answer is apparently my fault.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Random useless thought: ever since a specific moment in my SE life, I can't unlink "Jay Hanlon" and "Hanlon's Razor".

Martin James

What is 'Hanlon's Razor'? Is that where you try to improve your appearance by shaving, but accidentally cut your own throat? Must Google..

Derpy

@MartinJames my vision is much more of a downer. The school staff didn't had to handle the fights so far because "it wasn't worth" but now some annoying meddling student had to tell his story to the local newspaper so if they don't give the idea of caring the students will start asking for reallocation to other schools.

John Dvorak

09:45

And they show care by telling the victims not to fight back or else

Martin James

@Derpy That too:(

Magisch

@JohnDvorak zero tolerance policies do that. I'm glad we don't have any in my country

Martin James

It's hugely ironic that SE/SO curators are often accused of 'bullying' when the massed gangs of no-effort homework/quiz/requirement dumpers spout bad questions freely:( Unfortunately, it's unwelcoming to label such questions as rude and abusive, all we can do is push them into opening another burner account sooner:(

John Dvorak

Free burner accounts for moderators?

John Dvorak

10:52

Imgur talking about the new CoC: imgur.com/gallery/aPrJSOI

Somewhat Memorable Name

*then

the comments are entertaining though :D

Derpy

@MartinJames look... I don't think most of the "not welcoming" claims are being made because of "you closed my do-my-homework request"

the community has his own part of responsibility to share

It is not like April report of "so nice" post where made up, considering I saw many of the things she quotes before she reported them.

We do have gender discrimination, we do have racist comments and we do have our fair share of misogynist too.

Mgetz

@Derpy actually if you read a lot of the "I hate stackoverflow" stories, they do revolve around those questions

Derpy

11:07

I prefer to continue reading the stories of female developers that have been told to "just stay home and consider knitting instead" on SO, thanks.

Mgetz

@Derpy I'd write a world class knitting tutorial app ;p

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, pattern-matching website in answer: boot ubuntu usb stick on chromebook? by Jessika on unix.SE

Derpy

@Mgetz /417

Somewhat Memorable Name

I believe this has been rehashed on MSO so many times after that blog post that there are 2 cases:
1. New users feel unwelcome because their questions got closed
2. Users feel unwelcome because of races/gender commentary
Users from the 1st case were more vocal with "This is why I hate SO" blog, but the community doesn't feel like the need to "clean-up" the posts by VTD it, because... there's no point in cleaning them up (after all, there's roomba). In the end, it's known to the public and the community that SO feels unwelcome to low quality posts (and.. is that an issue?).

Derpy

to be honest (again) I don't get how people can't
a) having been here for more than a month without seeing first hand proof that 2) is true
b) even if they were lucky enough to live in a far far away SE network site where 2) isn't a thing... how they aren't willing to trust staff when they say they have to clean up A LOT of 2) **daily**

Somewhat Memorable Name

11:27

I was a) since starting on SE until the April case happened and confirming it myself with SEDE. I agree that b) is the worst

Martin James

11:48

Oh..? Does 'pattern-matching website' mean 'knittingIdeas.com' then?

Mgetz

@MartinJames what is this, take a picture of a knit and it finds the pattern for you?

(actually a cool idea)

Martin James

@Mgetz Maybe - like those music-analysis sites where you play a snippet and it coughs up the song details.

@Mgetz It is. Finding the right-colour wools is more difficult than finding a good pattern:(

Mgetz

@MartinJames Yeah, my mom talked about that

Magisch

@Derpy I still think SE is much better then your average forum or site about 2) already

jerks exist everywhere but at least here they can be effectively punted by the users

Martin James

@Mgetz My problem is getting long needles with a good grip. I like to hold the ends under my arms to reduce strain on my hands - after so many clicks for closing bad questions, I risk CTS etc.

@Derpy Why would I need to trust anyone if there is plentiful evidence available?

Derpy

11:55

because people still argue that 2) isn't a thing and April made everything up?

Magisch

@Derpy I think the difference is people argue 2) is not enough of a thing to matter, not that it literally doesn't exist. More like that it is chump change compared to 1)

Martin James

@Derpy No, because on SO and the other SE sites I use, I havent seen any evidence of (2).... at all.

Magisch

@MartinJames I have, actually

Martin James

@Magisch I've been lucky, then:)

Magisch

Not something you notice straight away because it's not particularly common, but it does happen

Derpy

11:59

define "common"

Martin James

@Magisch Ok, maybe, but even if it happens, it must be massively outnumbered by (1).

Magisch

@Derpy Not common enough for your average user to ever be likely to come across it. I had to play SEDE bingo to find some and I've read tens of thousands of comments in my normal site usage before that.

So either it happens extremely rarely, or is removed quite quickly, which comes out to about the same

Martin James

I've seen 'he' instead of s/he, or whatever, a few times. I will certainly admit that.

Magisch

I'm not knocking that it gets some attention after all, since it'd obviously better to just not have it, but I think other things would be a lot better to focus on

Derpy

@Magisch in that time, did you ever saw or heard of users that were suspended or banned because of abusive / offensive comments / chat messages?

Martin James

12:02

@Magisch We are in danger of agreeing on something again. State something else controversial so we can have a decent fight:)

Somewhat Memorable Name

@MartinJames worse than that

Martin James

@Derpy I suspect we all did. I no longer use some chatrooms.

Derpy

you never saw smokey reporting a rude post, for example? Well, wonder what, those Smokey reports are just the tip of the iceberg.

since we already mentioned chatrooms

Magisch

These are taken care of though

I can honestly say before delving into SEDE i've never actually seen a overtly sexist or racist comment out in the wild

Derpy

remember that shog had to shut down some unsalvageable chat rooms.

MULTIPLE TIMES

Magisch

12:04

Charcoal HQ doesn't count we sift the entire network for this filth

Derpy

oh, you think only Charcoal was ever closed?

Martin James

@SomewhatMemorableName I sincerely hope not:(

Magisch

@Derpy i at least heard about that

Charcoal was never closed iirc

charcoal and metasmoke is just a repository of the absolute worst of the network in general

you see rude and annoying posts and targeted harassment there on the regular

Derpy

yep sorry, my bad

Magisch

gotta remember though all of that is filtered exclusively from the tens of thousands of perfectly normal and boring posts

Derpy

12:06

confused the name with another room

Somewhat Memorable Name

Smokey is only for post though, not comments. There's HeatDetector for that...

Magisch

Subjective sites get more of this because people with retrograde beliefs feel its topical to prosletyze them.

Martin James

@Magisch None of my posts are boring! I don't use PHP or JavaScript!

Magisch

I'm a boring person

Everything I do on here is boring

Martin James

@Magisch ..said Elon.

Magisch

12:09

flagging serial voting is just staring at numbers all day. charcoal desensitizes you completly to filth in posts. Reviewing the close vote queue is like using a bucket to fill a really leaky pot.

Martin James

@Magisch I long ago stopped trying to drive myself into depression in such a manner. No smokey logs or CVQ for me.

Somewhat Memorable Name

No Friday in Iceland anymore?

Martin James

@SomewhatMemorableName They always closed early on Friday anyway. I get most of my frozen stuff from Lidl now.

Somewhat Memorable Name

oh...

SmokeDetector

12:24

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Change username on ROBLOX by xavix store on gaming.SE

Journeyman Geek

I tend to think of site cleanup as "nothing personal"

stuff needs to get closed, it gets closed.

People are nasty, it gets handled.

Keeps you a lot happier :)

Magisch

12:49

@JourneymanGeek But how will I fuel my outrage then?

Need to be mad about something :D

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch you don't

Magisch

Do I need a /s tag

Journeyman Geek

;p

Martin James

@Magisch Joachim Löw?

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek while you're here, one of my coworkers has a dog that looks really similar to ash, but smaller

a yorkie mix too

Journeyman Geek

12:56

ah ;p

one of... those mystery dogs ;)

lemme guess they don't know what the other half is ;p

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in url answer: HP 3732 deskjet printer settings by Techno Xpert on askubuntu.com

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek they do not

really cute dog though. And friendly as well

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch ya. I swear there's a secret society of those little critters ;p

@Magisch terriers are great dogs once socialised.

Magisch

13:11

@JourneymanGeek and so huggable

Journeyman Geek

lol

and great personalities

Even when they're grumpy ;)

Case in point

reddit.com/r/aww/comments/5gpr2f/…

Martin James

@JourneymanGeek We've actually got some paper for Bailey - he's an elite, 1st-generation useless mutt:)

Journeyman Geek

@MartinJames ash literally was adopted by accident

we found the petshop his original owner bought him at and they went

Martin James

..which reminds me, must go fill his outside water bowl, again. I hope this hot weather breaks soon - the grass has gone white.

Journeyman Geek

"his mom's a white scnauzer, we don't know what his dad is"

which .... is a problem

singapore literally has a list of allowed pet breeds in public housing

so we went "he looks like a westie"

Martin James

13:19

@JourneymanGeek lol

Journeyman Geek

So officially he's a westie Snauzer mix

Martin James

@JourneymanGeek ...but sworn to secrecy:)

Journeyman Geek

(also, then we realised... erm, my specific apartment block and roughly half the other blocks isn't under public housing rules do to a quirk of history)

so in theory I could legally have a collie for a room mate.

Martin James

@JourneymanGeek Well, since Ash is a quirk of history, I'm sure he fits right in:)

Journeyman Geek

Quite

Magisch

13:29

Get extra dogs

step 1. acquire dog
step 2. happiness

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch its a lot of work

we're bringing him to the vet tommorrow

he's been coughing, and wheezing a bit

Magisch

fingers crossed for at least 10 more years of ash

Journeyman Geek

I'm hoping he hits 18, so, at least another 5

Shog9

@ShadowWizard so, do answers to deleted questions count or not? What about self-deleted answers?

Magisch

13:51

Are you using this as a teachable moment to caution people against closing as dupe incorrectly?

5d chess level: shog

Shadow Wizard

14:06

@Shog9 I don't know. You know. But you didn't say it in your answer. If you would, I would have closed it the other way around, like I said.

If you disagree with the closure, feel free to reopen, I won't be upset or anything, but I honestly don't understand what you are getting at.

Catija

Seems like the fact we encourage self-deleting low-scoring and high-scoring answers with badges, it's unlikely they count towards a ban.

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch and probably revenge for pinging him XD

@Catija anyway, once you get past aboooout 200 or so rep, bans are hard

off the top of my head, and I may be wrong

Somewhat Memorable Name

Meanwhile, I almost missed the WorldBuilding.SE Election since it's a site I seldom go to... as of current, 8 candidates for 2 positions.

Catija

Answer bans are always hard.

Journeyman Geek

I missed it cause my work/RL schedule is the crazy part of the cycle ;)

Catija

14:16

ELL is in question collection phase.

Their meta is really quiet, though.

Journeyman Geek

(also WB's mainly about thr HNQs for me)

@Catija hmm, cause peaceful or... ? ;p

Catija

Lots of transient users, I think. And the site is old enough there's not much to hash out. Not as quiet as cooking, though.

Somewhat Memorable Name

ELL question collection phase... erh, I noticed an ELU regular being upset since their post didn't get a lot of support (=upvotes)...

Catija

It will be interesting to see who nominates there. I hope Nathan gives it another chance.

@SomewhatMemorableName she's a reg on ELL, too.

Not a fan of comment deletion.

Somewhat Memorable Name

As for WB election... I think I've only recognized 1, or maybe 2 names -_-

Catija

14:21

(She is... I delete comments constantly, which is part of why she's not on IPS any more)

Shog9

@ShadowWizard my issue is that your logic here appears to be, "Well, shog didn't provide details on either of the scenarios asked about... So clearly the question is a duplicate of this other question that also doesn't provide details on either of the scenarios asked about"

That's why I deleted my answer - because y'all were fixating on that without reading the question.

So read the damn question.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@Catija I think I remember that case on IPS too...

Journeyman Geek

@Catija I cannot imagine controversy on cooking

Magisch

5d chess level: mildly irritated shog

Catija

Well, the mods there are great. :) there are definitely some difficult users and I think the age of the site can lead to some tagging issues. I bring up weird tags whenever I find them. Language differences (even within English variants) make tags there wonky.

1 hour later…

Derpy

15:46

@JourneymanGeek Ye Oldie Cinnamon VS Butterscotch (VS snails) debate.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

16:06

reopen-pls This question simply asks why something is the case, while the target requests to change it: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/297299/… (@Shadow @rene)

I see you lurking @TimPost

Tim Post

I'm not lurking, I'm just watching everything that happens and hoping nobody notices me.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@TimPost I have a suggestion for the upcoming Developer Survey.

Martin James

Can anyone else hear keys rattling?

Catija

I only hear sabers.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Or occams razors

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

16:12

Welcome back!

Sterling Archer

Theoretically, if something happens and ROs decide that a suspension is needed for a user, can they vote, and petition for a moderator to apply a harsher punishment than they can deliver?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Closing a question as off-topic is different from losing one's mind in the comments

Martin James

@JourneymanGeek Anchovies or pineapple on pizza?

Catija

Who's back?

@SterlingArcher Some rooms have private "meta" rooms for the ROs/mods to discuss stuff in... The IPS room does, for example. If something gets out of hand, they can ask for help dealing with it, though that room tends to have lots of mods hanging out in it, anyway. But anyone, RO or otherwise, can also flag and ask for help.

Tim Post

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Can just post it on meta, create a tag for the 2019 survey if it doesn't exist yet

Sterling Archer

16:18

@Catija we're currently discussing it on our github moderation section

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

You should consider asking users which of the following choices they agree with:
- Stack Overflow should mostly be about helping the question author; helping the overall audience of the Internet should take a backstop.
- Stack Overflow should mostly be about helping the overall audience of the Internet; helping the question author should take a backstop.
- Stack Overflow should equally strive to help both the question author and the overall audience of the Internet.

(Sorry, was already composing, didn't want to lose my work)

Sterling Archer

Both users were at fault, but one wasn't punished by flags and they've been a real pain lately. They may need a more serious removal for their behavior

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija Super User has an "ask a moderator" room, should IPS?

Catija

@SterlingArcher It's probably preferable to do it on-site so that the mods/CMs have access to what you're discussing.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Nah, the IPS mods are usually in TAS, anyway.

Sterling Archer

Moderators have access to our private repo :)

Catija

16:19

Plus, we'd really rather people flag stuff or ask on Meta so that everyone can benefit from it.

Sterling Archer

Plus there's a public one that already has moderator attention, but it fails to take into account this certain person being increasingly... bad? since most of the ROs decided to leave

I have a serious bias against this person, so I'm trying to be good and not flame them

Catija

If they're making the room inhospitable, even if they're staying inside the lines of the rules, they're breaking the room and need a break. I'd talk to the mods if you can.

Sterling Archer

I think that's a good idea

I can't speak for others, but I do not talk when they are talking because it's very inhospitable

Catija

Yeah, that sounds like a problem.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

0

Q: Ideology question suggestion for Developer Survey 2019

I know this is a little too early to ask, but this is something I'm wondering about for quite a long time. Ever since the inclusion project was started, there has been consistent rift among users as to the intent of answering questions here on Stack Overflow. I considered having a separate surve...

discussion survey survey-2019

Tim Post

16:33

Thanks, that'll make sure it doesn't get lost. It's easy to just pull up that tag and look for survey suggestions when we start the next one, which usually starts gearing up november-ish

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@TimPost Out of curiosity, are downvoted suggestions also considered independently?

I would say no, since any option other than (2) would mean Stack Overflow would die and Stack HomeworkFlow would be born. — Martin James 21 secs ago

Tinkeringbell

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog 'Help' is a vague thing...

Help with what?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

The question is intentionally vague

Martin James

@Tinkeringbell The Beatles knew that back in '65

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames Eeeh... way before my time. Link?

Martin James

16:39

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog 'This option deliberately left blank' :)

Somewhat Memorable Name

Well, to be honest, I agree we need that question to know how users interpret the goal of SO.

Tinkeringbell

@SomewhatMemorableName Sure, but I'd like about 10 free text fields to describe what I consider 'help' :P

Somewhat Memorable Name

So that we can be surprised and shocked by how many vote for other than 2

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@SomewhatMemorableName I would advocate asking this on all SE communities, but SO is the only one with routine annual surveys that lots of people take part in.

Martin James

@Tinkeringbell YT: youtube.com/watch?v=CTsB-llTzyc

Tinkeringbell

16:41

@MartinJames Thanks!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Is the fact that a removed message was a reply to another message supposed to be public after the message is removed?

How divisive!

Let's put it in! And each user who doesn't choose (2) gets automatically banned for a month ;) — honk 27 secs ago

Somewhat Memorable Name

Anyway, I believe the result will be divided by non-participant, new users, and regulars

Tinkeringbell

I'm curious if you ask the regulars about the meaning of 'help'... what their answer would be :)

Martin James

16:57

@SomewhatMemorableName Well, in that case, it's just as well it's a trial balloon and not a vote on policy change.......(I hope).

@Tinkeringbell Gimme teh extra curators!

We dsperately need more effective curators to spread the suspensions over a wider group.

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