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1:02 AM
> Our mission is to build an inclusive community where all people feel welcome and can participate, regardless of expertise, identity, or language.
Excuse me while I throw up.
1:22 AM
@user134300 I guess you're not a fan of my username...
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Better not mention it...
Being nice is nice. Kicking everyone out for using the wrong words is not. Do you know how to increase the population of any city quickly? Outlaw sanitation. The count of bacteria will soar.
At least I can always uBlock SO from the realtime tab. Or, you know, start debugging other people's code again, in race against #4s.
because not answering = being an overzealous closer
1:55 AM
... I guess I should just learn how to use the search function and set up some bookmarks, like everyone does.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I thought it was satire..
That. The thought that Sonic actually likes noobs more than experts disgusts me.
... am I allowed to say that something disgusts me?
There's a balance
If we're seeing new users only as a problem, then we're basically building communities that will eventually die of attrition
the trick is really to get rid of the bad behaviours , and try to keep the good newbies
on the other hand, as experienced users, there's a few terribad ones too
2:12 AM
by experienced users, do you mean high-reputation users? There are some who gained theirs by answering lots of low-hanging fruit - questions that shouldn't actually be on the site
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly punctuation marks in title: Proving $\gcd{(x^a -1, x^b -1)} = x^{\gcd{(a,b)}}-1$. by Suha Roy on math.SE
2:28 AM
Well, users who have been around a while, and arn't closing said low hanging fruit and terribad questions
As always, the (rhetorical) question is: who are we being inclusive to?
@SomewhatMemorableName That's actually a good question.
Especially taking into account the anonymous nature of SE users
or, who are we excluding and why?
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: Why are there no hurricanes in the southern Atlantic basin? by Marcus A on earthscience.SE
1 hour later…
3:51 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad ns for domain in answer: Bayes Theorem Breast Cancer by Bablu on math.SE
1 hour later…
5:18 AM
@JourneymanGeek Definitely agreed.
1 hour later…
6:53 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: How to judge the quality of education of an art school? by Leo90 on academia.SE
7:21 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Migrating an Outlook .pst file to Gmail by Eva Brown on webapps.SE
7:32 AM
babies' sleeping in the sun
8:32 AM
@Shog9 no need for any research, the answer there is just fine.
A: Do answers left on questions that subsequently get deleted impact the Answer Ban criteria for those users?

Time Traveling Bobby An automatic filter is in place to ban questions and/or answers from IP addresses or accounts with a history of extremely poor posts. To avoid bypassing the filter its internal rules are a secret, but it is partly based on downvotes cast by other members of the communities. ... Yes, ...

The exact details for post ban is secret, I know and agree with it.
Sorry that I disturbed you, but the question was "Does something count towards the answer ban?" And you did not give any direct answer, but rather said "Don't worry, you won't be banned".
@JourneymanGeek that's the point.... with the new CoC, SE should not exclude anyone at all.
For example, now in Stack Overflow we exclude non professional people who ask questions without research first. That would change, and they will be welcome to post their questions with the new Code of Conduct.
Their questions will still get downvoted and closed (hopefully), but in a nice and friendly way.
(i.e. without any snarky comment like "Make your research first")
8:49 AM
@ShadowWizard I would think that people who are unable or unwilling to abide quality standards and site rules will be excluded by default?
We even have fully automatic mechanics for excluding people deemed not an asset to the community
@Magisch no... the CoC is very clear: "inclusive community where all people feel welcome and can participate"
Nothing about quality or standards.
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: How often do I need to change my oil in a VW TDI? by Maksim Yaroslav on mechanics.SE
@ShadowWizard The intent of SE is also very clear. People who don't contribute usefully eventually get automatically prohibited from posting
So that is exclusion, is it not?
I'd feel pretty excluded if I was permabanned
(for the purposes of this argument I do not count 1 question every 6 months as not banned)
Subtle difference: you are welcome to try, and not forgiven when you fail.
These days, people are not welcome to even try.
I think you're mixing cause and effect
8:55 AM
They see the hoards of downvotes, closures, comments and think "heck... I can't even try".
Which is actually pretty true
You can't try (without failure to be certain) without doing a lot of research first
So if they'll see a shiny Code of Conduct welcoming them to try, they might just do it. :)
And maybe lurking for a bit ... getting used to the customs, reading a whole bunch of material and looking at examples of how it's done right. (even that is treachorous, since handling is sometimes inconsistent that way)
@ShadowWizard It won't stop them from getting ground into the dirt once they do try though
@Magisch of course, and that's where it will all fall and bounce back on SE.
Thats why I hope the efforts to improve first question quality bear fruit. Otherwise the new CoC is just setting people up for failure and disappointment
"You're so welcome to try and ask here" "Actually no, this question is bad and now closed. Keep it going and you'll be banned forever."
I'm actually really glad SE felt unwelcoming when I first started. Saved me a lot of embarassment from asking my 2 week newbie questions about how arrays work in C and getting ground into the dirt by the C tag community
9:00 AM
heh, perfect example just now... question missing "what have you tried" on SO. In the past, I would have posted "What have you tried? Please share" comment, but I won't post such comments these days.
@ShadowWizard That's ... not how that's supposed to work I believe :P
Me either, but I won't pretend I used to comment a lot. Rather, this new wave is somewhat assuaging my guilt about not commenting.
Ultimately it comes down to even your best effort might not be enough not to get banned and downvoted here. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
@Tinkeringbell well from what I see "what have you tried" is considered "snarky", hence forbidden.
@ShadowWizard Hmmm... And that's just the 'what have you tried'? Or is there usually something before/after that too, that's considered not very helpful?
The problem is, we aren't supposed to care about prior attempts. For separating pearls we have crystal balls.
9:04 AM
@Tinkeringbell :7083926 Usually, a very bad question:)
@MartinJames :P
@Tinkeringbell the question itself implies the OP done something wrong/bad, so they might take it as accusing them. That's how I see it. Of course I might be wrong and take it to the extreme, but until being told otherwise officially, that's how I see it.
So, looking at the one Shadow just linked... It looks like there's some info on what they've already tried? So are we trying to figure out how they tried putting that stuff in global.asa?
@Tinkeringbell You'd want them to show their attempt
Not just say "I have tried"
@Tinkeringbell yeah the proper (and only) way is by having code in global.asa
9:06 AM
The question in general is also pretty broad
@Magisch not really, creating global functions isn't really broad, I did it a lot in the past.
@Magisch So, there's probably a problem with how they used global.asa, and we want to see the code they used so we can help better?
You know, that sentence still doesn't hit the max char limit for a comment :P
@ShadowWizard I mean as in, helping with their problem is impossible without seeing their attempt - short at coding a full example and explaining it, which is too broad for the answer scope, imo.
Although I think if you add the code and there's something wrong with it, SO starts complaining about not being there to review code?
@Tinkeringbell not review, fix.
9:07 AM
So maybe a wash between OT - MCVE / Too broad / unclear
@ShadowWizard Even worse :P
@Tinkeringbell that's where "minimal" in "MVCE" comes in
The question is clear, just missing past effort part.
unclear because it is unclear why their attempt did not work, and answers can only guess at that
@JohnDvorak I don't hang around SO a lot, most of my Java questions were already answered and I'm using some obscure proprietary language :P
9:09 AM
OP wants to have a function that they can call from any .asp file without having to include any other file.
@Magisch answer can just give full example from scratch.
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating words in answer: Take data from one field and insert into new row by Maria on unix.SE
That would be code writing service territory (too broad), no?
And also not as helpful to OP as pointing out the specific mistake they made (which might be transferable)
@SmokeDetector naa
@ShadowWizard Recorded answer as an NAA in metasmoke.
@Magisch I don't think so. Would post such answer myself, if I could find my past code...
(16-17 years old project, dead by now.)
oh wait....
9:11 AM
@ShadowWizard Yeah - I had a problem with that. 'All welcome! (except violent racists and raving mysoginists)' paints a bleak picture, though. So, what do you say??
@MartinJames no "except"... and racists and raving mysoginists are also welcome as long as they don't show their racism or whatever it is that mysoginists means. (didn't check yet. :))
I'm going to say if it's about posts like the one just discussed... Welcoming might mean encouraging people to stay and use SO to get their answers by using it as a resource.
Not as something that they can use to ask and get answers, but as something they can use to look up answers
@MartinJames violent racists, raving misogynists or anyone whose comment is considered mildly down-putting
@JohnDvorak lol
I still think this all is cooked a lot hotter then it is eaten
e.g not much will change besides some people who'll need to learn to ease just a tiny bit off the biting sarcasm
9:17 AM
In other words, we're "merely" giving the law enforcement just one more WMD they shouldn't use (but can, legally)
not like we have a choice in the matter, though
Feedback has been duly given, it's up to stack what they'll do with it (my guess: not a lot)
Huh? Have you tried telling people how they should behave rather than drawing a faint line right next to them and then shooting when they cross it?
@Magisch There's not much that can be done while new account users have the impression that 'welcoming' applies past the point where they ask bad questions:(
I'll be honest. All this "change" imho it is just reacting to those posts April made.
@Derpy yup
9:22 AM
@Derpy that's... beyond obvious.
Obvious Overflow. :D
It's a tightrope between posting shareholder bromides and pissing off the set of curators who will get most of the stick for objecting to rude/abusive questions:(
what I actually meant is that right now none of these changes feels like something they want to do but just plain and simple damage control / public image safeguard. Which, coincidental, started right at the same time as Teams
@JohnDvorak If it was me I'd have gone with another course of action
Most importantly, I'd have focused on improving new question quality. The one (and in my opinion only tenable) way to ease the snark and condescension is to make new users better at not providing targets for it
I can already feel the red dot burning a hole in my forehead
and I don't feel that "be nice" because you have to will work on the long term. Nor I believe that will be "be nice" at all in the first place
9:28 AM
@Magisch Aren't they doing both at the same time now? Doesn't seem too bad of an idea to me either, since what could happen if you take away the targets but don't tell people to be nicer? They might find new targets...
@Tinkeringbell Who the heck infests their house with flies so that he can have a good ole swatting session each evening?
It would be 'interesting' to see some of the exmail received by SO from the new account users who objected to the so-called 'unwelcoming, hostile' SE/SO. I know it won't happen 'cos confidential, but I'm betting that many are far from any kind of constructive criticism and nearer to gross profane abuse:(
@Tinkeringbell I believe fundamentally that a lot of the snark and condescension is caused from burnout from having so much crap shoveled on you all day. I don't think many volunteers are in it just to snark at people. More of a cause/effect side occurence
shameless self plug btw:
The far more likely outcome (in my opinion) is that people will reduce the amount of comments they make and use the niceness-agnostic tools of moderation to clean up instead. So instead of getting 5+ comments telling you why and what's wrong with your question, you might get nothing, -6 + closed and no further actionable feedback. I'm unconvinced that's going to be better then some snarky yet relevant comments. — Magisch Jul 6 at 7:31
@JohnDvorak Well, there were those electrified tennis-racket things. They were fun:)
@JohnDvorak Well, let's take something a little bigger than flies: They're closing the holes through which the mice come in, by that new question wizard and stuff, and they're also saying we should use traps that allow us to release the mice back in the wild, instead of outright killing them and having the site smell like death and decay
9:31 AM
@MartinJames but they aren't nice
@Magisch Oh sure, I've been on that side too...
IIRC, I took a break.
@Tinkeringbell and then "Mr Brown" will use those traps. Not because he care at all about the rats - after all he has been feeding them homemade poison till yesterday - but just because he now risks to get a pricey fine if he doesn't
At least they can't suspend us for leaving for ... well ... for ... good?
Well they could but that'd be pointless
@JohnDvorak Why would you leave? Because you can't snark at people anymore, or because the questions don't improve?
9:38 AM
@Magisch It's like schoolyard bullying. The staff etc. can do nothing because there's never any evidence or witnesses. Eventually, you have had enough of the provocation and threats from a gang and fight back. Result? Five fine, upstanding students all say you started the fight and you are in an interrogation room at the cop shop trying to avoid a criminal conviction:(
The one really nasty schoolyard bully I had got expelled after I broke his nose in not-at-all self defense
So I can't relate to that
@Tinkeringbell Because closing is pointless, commenting is a minefield and not being able to find stuff to answer is apparently my fault.
Random useless thought: ever since a specific moment in my SE life, I can't unlink "Jay Hanlon" and "Hanlon's Razor".
What is 'Hanlon's Razor'? Is that where you try to improve your appearance by shaving, but accidentally cut your own throat? Must Google..
@MartinJames my vision is much more of a downer. The school staff didn't had to handle the fights so far because "it wasn't worth" but now some annoying meddling student had to tell his story to the local newspaper so if they don't give the idea of caring the students will start asking for reallocation to other schools.
9:45 AM
And they show care by telling the victims not to fight back or else
@Derpy That too:(
@JohnDvorak zero tolerance policies do that. I'm glad we don't have any in my country
It's hugely ironic that SE/SO curators are often accused of 'bullying' when the massed gangs of no-effort homework/quiz/requirement dumpers spout bad questions freely:( Unfortunately, it's unwelcoming to label such questions as rude and abusive, all we can do is push them into opening another burner account sooner:(
Free burner accounts for moderators?
10:52 AM
Imgur talking about the new CoC: imgur.com/gallery/aPrJSOI
the comments are entertaining though :D
@MartinJames look... I don't think most of the "not welcoming" claims are being made because of "you closed my do-my-homework request"
the community has his own part of responsibility to share
It is not like April report of "so nice" post where made up, considering I saw many of the things she quotes before she reported them.
We do have gender discrimination, we do have racist comments and we do have our fair share of misogynist too.
@Derpy actually if you read a lot of the "I hate stackoverflow" stories, they do revolve around those questions
11:07 AM
I prefer to continue reading the stories of female developers that have been told to "just stay home and consider knitting instead" on SO, thanks.
@Derpy I'd write a world class knitting tutorial app ;p
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, pattern-matching website in answer: boot ubuntu usb stick on chromebook? by Jessika on unix.SE
@Mgetz /417
I believe this has been rehashed on MSO so many times after that blog post that there are 2 cases:
1. New users feel unwelcome because their questions got closed
2. Users feel unwelcome because of races/gender commentary
Users from the 1st case were more vocal with "This is why I hate SO" blog, but the community doesn't feel like the need to "clean-up" the posts by VTD it, because... there's no point in cleaning them up (after all, there's roomba). In the end, it's known to the public and the community that SO feels unwelcome to low quality posts (and.. is that an issue?).
to be honest (again) I don't get how people can't
a) having been here for more than a month without seeing first hand proof that 2) is true
b) even if they were lucky enough to live in a far far away SE network site where 2) isn't a thing... how they aren't willing to trust staff when they say they have to clean up A LOT of 2) **daily**
11:27 AM
I was a) since starting on SE until the April case happened and confirming it myself with SEDE. I agree that b) is the worst
11:48 AM
Oh..? Does 'pattern-matching website' mean 'knittingIdeas.com' then?
@MartinJames what is this, take a picture of a knit and it finds the pattern for you?
(actually a cool idea)
@Mgetz Maybe - like those music-analysis sites where you play a snippet and it coughs up the song details.
@Mgetz It is. Finding the right-colour wools is more difficult than finding a good pattern:(
@MartinJames Yeah, my mom talked about that
@Derpy I still think SE is much better then your average forum or site about 2) already
jerks exist everywhere but at least here they can be effectively punted by the users
@Mgetz My problem is getting long needles with a good grip. I like to hold the ends under my arms to reduce strain on my hands - after so many clicks for closing bad questions, I risk CTS etc.
@Derpy Why would I need to trust anyone if there is plentiful evidence available?
11:55 AM
because people still argue that 2) isn't a thing and April made everything up?
@Derpy I think the difference is people argue 2) is not enough of a thing to matter, not that it literally doesn't exist. More like that it is chump change compared to 1)
@Derpy No, because on SO and the other SE sites I use, I havent seen any evidence of (2).... at all.
@MartinJames I have, actually
@Magisch I've been lucky, then:)
Not something you notice straight away because it's not particularly common, but it does happen
11:59 AM
define "common"
@Magisch Ok, maybe, but even if it happens, it must be massively outnumbered by (1).
@Derpy Not common enough for your average user to ever be likely to come across it. I had to play SEDE bingo to find some and I've read tens of thousands of comments in my normal site usage before that.
So either it happens extremely rarely, or is removed quite quickly, which comes out to about the same
I've seen 'he' instead of s/he, or whatever, a few times. I will certainly admit that.
I'm not knocking that it gets some attention after all, since it'd obviously better to just not have it, but I think other things would be a lot better to focus on
@Magisch in that time, did you ever saw or heard of users that were suspended or banned because of abusive / offensive comments / chat messages?
12:02 PM
@Magisch We are in danger of agreeing on something again. State something else controversial so we can have a decent fight:)
@MartinJames worse than that
@Derpy I suspect we all did. I no longer use some chatrooms.
you never saw smokey reporting a rude post, for example? Well, wonder what, those Smokey reports are just the tip of the iceberg.
since we already mentioned chatrooms
These are taken care of though
I can honestly say before delving into SEDE i've never actually seen a overtly sexist or racist comment out in the wild
remember that shog had to shut down some unsalvageable chat rooms.
12:04 PM
Charcoal HQ doesn't count we sift the entire network for this filth
oh, you think only Charcoal was ever closed?
@SomewhatMemorableName I sincerely hope not:(
@Derpy i at least heard about that
Charcoal was never closed iirc
charcoal and metasmoke is just a repository of the absolute worst of the network in general
you see rude and annoying posts and targeted harassment there on the regular
yep sorry, my bad
gotta remember though all of that is filtered exclusively from the tens of thousands of perfectly normal and boring posts
12:06 PM
confused the name with another room
Smokey is only for post though, not comments. There's HeatDetector for that...
Subjective sites get more of this because people with retrograde beliefs feel its topical to prosletyze them.
@Magisch None of my posts are boring! I don't use PHP or JavaScript!
I'm a boring person
Everything I do on here is boring
@Magisch ..said Elon.
12:09 PM
flagging serial voting is just staring at numbers all day. charcoal desensitizes you completly to filth in posts. Reviewing the close vote queue is like using a bucket to fill a really leaky pot.
@Magisch I long ago stopped trying to drive myself into depression in such a manner. No smokey logs or CVQ for me.
No Friday in Iceland anymore?
@SomewhatMemorableName They always closed early on Friday anyway. I get most of my frozen stuff from Lidl now.
12:24 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Change username on ROBLOX by xavix store on gaming.SE
I tend to think of site cleanup as "nothing personal"
stuff needs to get closed, it gets closed.
People are nasty, it gets handled.
Keeps you a lot happier :)
12:49 PM
@JourneymanGeek But how will I fuel my outrage then?
Need to be mad about something :D
@Magisch you don't
Do I need a /s tag
@Magisch Joachim Löw?
@JourneymanGeek while you're here, one of my coworkers has a dog that looks really similar to ash, but smaller
a yorkie mix too
12:56 PM
ah ;p
one of... those mystery dogs ;)
lemme guess they don't know what the other half is ;p
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in url answer: HP 3732 deskjet printer settings by Techno Xpert on askubuntu.com
@JourneymanGeek they do not
really cute dog though. And friendly as well
@Magisch ya. I swear there's a secret society of those little critters ;p
@Magisch terriers are great dogs once socialised.
1:11 PM
@JourneymanGeek and so huggable
and great personalities
Even when they're grumpy ;)
Case in point
@JourneymanGeek We've actually got some paper for Bailey - he's an elite, 1st-generation useless mutt:)
@MartinJames ash literally was adopted by accident
we found the petshop his original owner bought him at and they went
..which reminds me, must go fill his outside water bowl, again. I hope this hot weather breaks soon - the grass has gone white.
"his mom's a white scnauzer, we don't know what his dad is"
which .... is a problem
singapore literally has a list of allowed pet breeds in public housing
so we went "he looks like a westie"
1:19 PM
@JourneymanGeek lol
So officially he's a westie Snauzer mix
@JourneymanGeek ...but sworn to secrecy:)
(also, then we realised... erm, my specific apartment block and roughly half the other blocks isn't under public housing rules do to a quirk of history)
so in theory I could legally have a collie for a room mate.
@JourneymanGeek Well, since Ash is a quirk of history, I'm sure he fits right in:)
1:29 PM
Get extra dogs
step 1. acquire dog
step 2. happiness
@Magisch its a lot of work
we're bringing him to the vet tommorrow
he's been coughing, and wheezing a bit
fingers crossed for at least 10 more years of ash
I'm hoping he hits 18, so, at least another 5
@ShadowWizard so, do answers to deleted questions count or not? What about self-deleted answers?
1:51 PM
Are you using this as a teachable moment to caution people against closing as dupe incorrectly?
5d chess level: shog
2:06 PM
@Shog9 I don't know. You know. But you didn't say it in your answer. If you would, I would have closed it the other way around, like I said.
If you disagree with the closure, feel free to reopen, I won't be upset or anything, but I honestly don't understand what you are getting at.
Seems like the fact we encourage self-deleting low-scoring and high-scoring answers with badges, it's unlikely they count towards a ban.
@Magisch and probably revenge for pinging him XD
@Catija anyway, once you get past aboooout 200 or so rep, bans are hard
off the top of my head, and I may be wrong
Meanwhile, I almost missed the WorldBuilding.SE Election since it's a site I seldom go to... as of current, 8 candidates for 2 positions.
Answer bans are always hard.
I missed it cause my work/RL schedule is the crazy part of the cycle ;)
2:16 PM
ELL is in question collection phase.
Their meta is really quiet, though.
(also WB's mainly about thr HNQs for me)
@Catija hmm, cause peaceful or... ? ;p
Lots of transient users, I think. And the site is old enough there's not much to hash out. Not as quiet as cooking, though.
ELL question collection phase... erh, I noticed an ELU regular being upset since their post didn't get a lot of support (=upvotes)...
It will be interesting to see who nominates there. I hope Nathan gives it another chance.
@SomewhatMemorableName she's a reg on ELL, too.
Not a fan of comment deletion.
As for WB election... I think I've only recognized 1, or maybe 2 names -_-
2:21 PM
(She is... I delete comments constantly, which is part of why she's not on IPS any more)
@ShadowWizard my issue is that your logic here appears to be, "Well, shog didn't provide details on either of the scenarios asked about... So clearly the question is a duplicate of this other question that also doesn't provide details on either of the scenarios asked about"
That's why I deleted my answer - because y'all were fixating on that without reading the question.
So read the damn question.
@Catija I think I remember that case on IPS too...
@Catija I cannot imagine controversy on cooking
5d chess level: mildly irritated shog
Well, the mods there are great. :) there are definitely some difficult users and I think the age of the site can lead to some tagging issues. I bring up weird tags whenever I find them. Language differences (even within English variants) make tags there wonky.
1 hour later…
3:46 PM
@JourneymanGeek Ye Oldie Cinnamon VS Butterscotch (VS snails) debate.
4:06 PM
This question simply asks why something is the case, while the target requests to change it: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/297299/… (@Shadow @rene)
I see you lurking @TimPost
I'm not lurking, I'm just watching everything that happens and hoping nobody notices me.
@TimPost I have a suggestion for the upcoming Developer Survey.
Can anyone else hear keys rattling?
I only hear sabers.
Or occams razors
4:12 PM
Welcome back!
Theoretically, if something happens and ROs decide that a suspension is needed for a user, can they vote, and petition for a moderator to apply a harsher punishment than they can deliver?
@JourneymanGeek Closing a question as off-topic is different from losing one's mind in the comments
@JourneymanGeek Anchovies or pineapple on pizza?
Who's back?
@SterlingArcher Some rooms have private "meta" rooms for the ROs/mods to discuss stuff in... The IPS room does, for example. If something gets out of hand, they can ask for help dealing with it, though that room tends to have lots of mods hanging out in it, anyway. But anyone, RO or otherwise, can also flag and ask for help.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Can just post it on meta, create a tag for the 2019 survey if it doesn't exist yet
4:18 PM
@Catija we're currently discussing it on our github moderation section
You should consider asking users which of the following choices they agree with:
- Stack Overflow should mostly be about helping the question author; helping the overall audience of the Internet should take a backstop.
- Stack Overflow should mostly be about helping the overall audience of the Internet; helping the question author should take a backstop.
- Stack Overflow should equally strive to help both the question author and the overall audience of the Internet.
(Sorry, was already composing, didn't want to lose my work)
Both users were at fault, but one wasn't punished by flags and they've been a real pain lately. They may need a more serious removal for their behavior
@Catija Super User has an "ask a moderator" room, should IPS?
@SterlingArcher It's probably preferable to do it on-site so that the mods/CMs have access to what you're discussing.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Nah, the IPS mods are usually in TAS, anyway.
Moderators have access to our private repo :)
4:19 PM
Plus, we'd really rather people flag stuff or ask on Meta so that everyone can benefit from it.
Plus there's a public one that already has moderator attention, but it fails to take into account this certain person being increasingly... bad? since most of the ROs decided to leave
I have a serious bias against this person, so I'm trying to be good and not flame them
If they're making the room inhospitable, even if they're staying inside the lines of the rules, they're breaking the room and need a break. I'd talk to the mods if you can.
I think that's a good idea
I can't speak for others, but I do not talk when they are talking because it's very inhospitable
Yeah, that sounds like a problem.
Q: Ideology question suggestion for Developer Survey 2019

gparyaniI know this is a little too early to ask, but this is something I'm wondering about for quite a long time. Ever since the inclusion project was started, there has been consistent rift among users as to the intent of answering questions here on Stack Overflow. I considered having a separate surve...

4:33 PM
Thanks, that'll make sure it doesn't get lost. It's easy to just pull up that tag and look for survey suggestions when we start the next one, which usually starts gearing up november-ish
@TimPost Out of curiosity, are downvoted suggestions also considered independently?
I would say no, since any option other than (2) would mean Stack Overflow would die and Stack HomeworkFlow would be born. — Martin James 21 secs ago
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog 'Help' is a vague thing...
Help with what?
The question is intentionally vague
@Tinkeringbell The Beatles knew that back in '65
@MartinJames Eeeh... way before my time. Link?
4:39 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog 'This option deliberately left blank' :)
Well, to be honest, I agree we need that question to know how users interpret the goal of SO.
@SomewhatMemorableName Sure, but I'd like about 10 free text fields to describe what I consider 'help' :P
So that we can be surprised and shocked by how many vote for other than 2
@SomewhatMemorableName I would advocate asking this on all SE communities, but SO is the only one with routine annual surveys that lots of people take part in.
4:41 PM
@MartinJames Thanks!
@Shog9 Is the fact that a removed message was a reply to another message supposed to be public after the message is removed?
How divisive!
Let's put it in! And each user who doesn't choose (2) gets automatically banned for a month ;) — honk 27 secs ago
Anyway, I believe the result will be divided by non-participant, new users, and regulars
I'm curious if you ask the regulars about the meaning of 'help'... what their answer would be :)
4:57 PM
@SomewhatMemorableName Well, in that case, it's just as well it's a trial balloon and not a vote on policy change.......(I hope).
@Tinkeringbell Gimme teh extra curators!
We dsperately need more effective curators to spread the suspensions over a wider group.

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