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5:00 PM
The answer to the post I just linked to there was from a Canonical employee, and he didn't mention anything about there being a requirement.
And I've railed against that stupid bar often enough, and often in the presence of or directly at Canonical employees but was never told there was a requirement.
I've always understood that SE wanted it because it would drive traffic to AU and Canonical wanted it because it made them look as though they were offering a high quality Q&A site under their banner, giving a more seamless experience to their users. So, a win win as far as those two entities were concerned.
5:29 PM
@rene you should remember all the things...much disappoint :P
Some things I was trying to say yesterday, but perhaps a bit more clear:
A: Can we get a comparison of new user comments?

Shog9I have no particular opinion on this request, other than to note that we'd need a LOT more data to draw any conclusions from it; this is a pretty narrow funnel. But I wanna touch on an assumption that seems to be present in both your proposal here and in a few other comments I've seen today: the ...

Thinking of this as a problem of old users beating up on new is... A good story, but reality is much messier with fewer pure victims and a lot more occasional villains.
It's extremely likely that the problem with comments is inherent to the medium itself. That our comment system affords some level of rudeness, engenders frustration, promotes an unwelcoming attitude... Among many of the people using it, regardless of their role.
@Shog9 Maybe it's time we moderated comments like posts?
@Shog9 I feel so thankful that by coincidence my first post on Stack Overflow happened to meet the guidelines.
With revision histories, unlimited edits, reputation for usefulness, order based on votes?
5:43 PM
@Shog9 "moderated"
not "treated"
Meaning what
You threw that word out there assuming I'd know what you meant, but clearly I do not. Quoting the word doesn't magically imbue it with extra meaning.
@Shog9 With revision histories, better flagging (giving moderators the ability to manually dismiss flags, and provide a reason for dismissing), potential comment ban for having too many comments deleted for being rude, etc.
@Shog9 Patience
I was typing
Revision histories already exist - they're accessible only to moderators, as only moderators can edit comments after a short 5 minute window.
Moderators can manually dismiss comment flags already.
@Shog9 The FAQ says that they have "no revision history".
I don't know what value providing a reason for dismissal would provide in this context.
5:47 PM
@Shog9 Since when was this implemented?
I thought mods marking a flag as "helpful" without deleting the flag were using a hacky workaround, marking it and deleting it, and then manually undeleting it.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog there's no public revision history. Because, as I said, you can't edit comments past the first five minutes.
Oh, and there's already a potential comment ban for too many rude comments.
Granted, it involves being banned from all other forms of activity as well.
@Shog9 So then can you edit the FAQ? (I always suspected that there was a revision history of some sort, because the number of edits is shown publicly.)
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you seem to be missing the crucial point here.
@Shog9 Only prevent comments while allowing posts.
5:48 PM
Can someone advice on this suggested edit? I'm inclined to approve it but can't really find where it is said that nobody want to add another answer.
If I can't edit my comment, if I can't fix a problem when it's pointed out... Then all this other stuff is meaningless.
"Look, you can clearly see in the revision history how rude Shog was when this comment was posted. And now here, where this large empty area clearly indicates how he kept being rude, persistently, willfully, even as dozens of comments piled up afterwards"
@rene I rejected it; see my reason.
I can delete my own comment. That's it. And... At that point, revision history doesn't add anything, because the comment is gone.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog how harsh, but yeah, that reason fits. Thanks
Now... I could imagine a system where we treated comments - the entire thread of comments - as a versioned document. Where deleting a comment created in effect a new revision. This would be useful.
5:51 PM
@Shog9 So the FAQ's statement that there is "no revision history" is inaccurate. There is a revision history, but it's not public.
ok... can we move on?
@Shog9 Okay...what do you think of this semi-related post (10k-only)?
I still have no idea what your point was there.
@Shog9 In that post, or by my message?
we discussed that post for an hour if I recall
Never did identify what problem you were trying to solve
5:54 PM
By the way, the user in question was the one who last commented on it before deletion. Their comments were being discussed here, and a quick check revealed they were leaving rude comments on other sites too.
Ever have to weed a garden?
You kneel down and try to yank out a bit of crab grass or something... And it breaks off above the root.
@Shog9 If I report the bad comments on one site, if that site happens to be one where they haven't left that many, they will just dismiss it as "too small a problem". If it's one where they've left more, they may be issued sanctions on that site, but then take their rudeness to some other site.
Now... you can stand up, go find a shovel, and dig away ruthlessly trying to extract that root, destroying your garden in the process... Or you can move on to the next weed.
On the other hand, if you consider their overall comments on all SE sites, you'll see they leave consistent rudeness everywhere, which IMO warrants a network-wide suspension.
You have a big garden. There are a lot of weeds. If you spend 5 minutes on each one, you're not going to get done.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog This isn't your call, is it.
yes, everything we write is IMO
@Shog9 Okay, on to something else. You deleted this post. Now that I've removed the link to the question, will you consider undeleting it?
Do you suppose no one has wanted you suspended, ever?
Should we shrug and suspend people as soon as someone suggests this possibility?
@Shog9 No, investigate overall.
Anyway, "on to something else".
It is critical that folks flag problematic comments. This provides information to the moderators when an investigation is needed.
Also, I'm not discussing that post. Or undeleting it.
5:59 PM
@Shog9 Why not?
Evening people
"Don't feed the trolls" isn't just something you do when you're not bored.
@Magisch I just ate lunch...
@Catija Timezones, eh!
No... grilled fish tacos and a small salad.
6:02 PM
I'm about to drive to the LAX airport to pick up my cousins. What a situation Cathay Pacific put them through.
Interesting meal
Pretty standard Texas fare.
We taco just about everything.
Pretty standard San Diego fare.
@Catija You make your own tortillas?
I was also at a restaurant, so it'd be weird to make tortillas.
Ah, I thought you made them yourself.
...and brought it to work.
6:07 PM
@Catija Yum!
fish tacos do not... age well
fish anything does not age well
I expect bringing them to work in a shared office might attract some unhappy gazes
(Also, I recently learned how to make my own flour tortillas - it takes a bit of time, and I can't really get the knack of making them very large yet, but they're fun. Mind you I don't make tacos much, they're hard to scale to one person)
I rarely have time to cook at this point... maybe in a couple of weeks... but... still... day-old fish and microwaves are the workplace equivalent of nuclear warfare.
6:09 PM
@Catija So true.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog What did they do? Cancel a flight?
@KevinB you've inspired me to downvote indiscriminately. Let the reaping begin.
@MartinJames Delay them by 4.5 hours in Mumbai, then put them onto a very late connection that would arrive very late at night here at LAX. We called Cathay Pacific and they were willing to rebook them onto an earlier flight, but there were two problems.
6:18 PM
@MartinJames First, their bags wouldn't make it onto the earlier connection. This wasn't very much of a problem as they're staying with us, and they'll deliver their bags here to San Diego. Second, and the bigger problem, the airline wasn't willing to page them and let them know that they've been rebooked. Thankfully they connected to the Wi-Fi there, and we could let them know.
I called Hong Kong airport's staff in the hope that they could get ahold of them, but they kept hanging up on me before I could say anything.
@KevinB :)
what did i do
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer: How to recover viber messages after reinstalling Viber? by maxfield034 on android.SE
oh, I don't remember but I'm sure you deserve blame for something
so, which ascii-smiley best conveys a dead-pan tone? :| perhaps?
6:25 PM
ew, emoji
for every emoji you see, there are thousands in the walls...
@canon :-|
Let us pray this is accurate. That incompetent fraud doesn't deserve any support from us. The only valid answer to any question is "this project is an anti-intellectual farce and any money you have invested is doing harm", and "no, there is no good justification, they just decided to discard decades of prior work because of NIH egoism". — user134300 2 hours ago
7:23 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Looks like this was deleted. Not sure why it was linked here, I'd've just flagged it, as that's my understanding as to normal process for these sorts of things.
Wanted to provide a more permanent archive
Someone really doesn't like EOS I guess
posting it here is like a super flag
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog archive? Why? (On second thought....don't worry about it, I don't think I need that explanation.)
Turns out I had EOS mixed up with one of the other acronymed token projects on the network, so as usual I was yelling at someone who had nothing to do with my actual concerns.
7:33 PM
@user134300 If you want I can flag my message above to have it deleted
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It's okay.
@KevinB nah... more like letting off steam. It can be ignored here as well. ;)
"other acronymed token projects"
it's TOR ain't it
dammit, TOR!
They're running a long game -- nobody suspects.
7:41 PM
...or maybe Craft CMS?
I always suspected they were a bit... Crafty...
@Shog9 and HNQ... and CoC... guess the list will just grow.
(of three letters acronyms ;))
Soon we'll have two @Some here.
missed opportunity to write "TLAs"
omg, wtf lol?
A hardware security module (HSM) is a physical computing device that safeguards and manages digital keys for strong authentication and provides cryptoprocessing. These modules traditionally come in the form of a plug-in card or an external device that attaches directly to a computer or network server. == Design == HSMs may have features that provide tamper evidence such as visible signs of tampering or logging and alerting, or tamper resistance which makes tampering difficult without making the HSM inoperable, or tamper responsiveness such as deleting keys upon tamper detection. Each modu...
7:46 PM
I had to install an update on my laptop to fix a security issue with my TPM
On the other hand, it's almost time for me to head to LAX
> How can I correct a reviewer's opinion?
@KevinB go back in time, re-educate them from scratch?
8:02 PM
Cute little bit of drama earlier on MSO. User with a chip on his shoulder posts an answer which ends by complaining about being censored and suspended for a previous post giving feedback on the CoC (they weren't). Mods point out that he was never suspended. He responds by demanding that they suspend and pledging to "force them" to do so if they don't comply. They decide it's best to suspend him, and also delete his post making false claims about a previous suspension. Prophecy fulfilled.
And he changed his username to 1984... for good measure.
Though, I'm guessing it's a matter of confusion. That user is suspended... on MSE, though...
So, if he thinks the mods are the same across the network, then saying he was suspended is actually correct.
Huh. Good catch!
Oh yeah, Andy pointed it out in the comments
Makes me slightly more sympathetic to the guy :/
@MarkAmery he's also suspended on MSE.
That's what I just said, :P
@ShadowWizard yep, Catija just pointed out the same :)
8:09 PM
(think that's what he meant by previous suspension)
@MarkAmery oh lol
NEWS BULLETIN: Shadow Wizard Ignores Catija - More at 10.
Man. Rereading the latest welcome wagon post, there are so many issues I take with it...
I should probably post a Meta rant :P
pls do
Suspension in 10.... 9... 8....
8:19 PM
Perhaps the most fundamental of them being the idea that comments that make some "feel unsure or annoyed" are inherently a problem! Anyone who tells me I'm wrong about something that I wasn't very sure about in the first place, regardless of their tone, is going to make me "feel unsure or annoyed". All the very best comments I've received, pointing out genuine mistakes I've made, are in that category.
But apparently them constituting 7.5% of comments on the site (based on the staff's labelings) is officially considered to be inherently unacceptable
@MarkAmery Wouldn't that be slightly dependant on context? I guess if I were reviewing comments for rudeness, 'feel unsure' actually means that I don't know if something is rude or not...
Huh, I thought it was meant to be "unsure" kind of like insecure
as in, this comment was cause me to experience a sense of self-doubt
whereas you're parsing it more like "I'm unsure how to feel about this comment"?
@MarkAmery Yep..
Well okay, there's another issue for my rant :P
I feel so unsure / As I take your hand and lead you to the dance floor youtube.com/watch?v=7DrLQBM8cfo
@MarkAmery I mean, the smiley face helps me interpret it that way too... a frowned look, a raised eyebrow... all seem to imply a 'I don't really know what to think of this' attitude.
But it's kinda conflicting with the 'I feel fine or neutral'.
8:25 PM
Yeah, I'd've thought your interpretation of "unsure" comes under "neutral"
Unless neutral means no doubts about not having doubts? :P
That seems like a plausible interpretation too :P
"The "science" part of social science is... a notoriously rocky road", as a wise person said recently in this room :P
Apparently we don't even agree on what question the study participants were answering :P
@MarkAmery I guess that's a very accurate description :)
@MarkAmery Did the participants know :P That's an even more interesting question :)
I mean, I kind of suspect they all knew
It's just whether they knew the same thing or not
Well... some people don't really think about why they're picking certain choices, and go with gut feeling on questions about feelings ;)
Anyway, I have to drop off. Ping me so I can find your rant tomorrow? :)
8:30 PM
1 hour later…
Interesting thing, yes.
10:43 PM
Here you go @Tinkeringbell meta.stackoverflow.com/q/370838/1709587
11:24 PM
A: Etiquette for thanking an editor

Shog9Send him a thank-you basket filled with bratwurst, sauerkraut, and beer. Editors love those.

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