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5:59 AM
35 messages moved to Chimney
6:14 AM
> Aziraphale collected books. If he were totally honest with himself he would have to have admitted that his bookshop was simply somewhere to store them. He was not unusual in this. In order to maintain his cover as a typical second-hand book seller, he used every means short of actual physical violence to prevent customers from making a purchase. Unpleasant damp smells, glowering looks, erratic opening hours-he was incredibly good at it.
(Good Omens, Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman)
6:41 AM
@Rob I just see this same image all over the internet. Thought you meant "Visually similar images"
@Rob give this to @Ollie
@LinkBerest lol, so.... how was the book? ;)
@Mithical yes!
@Rob well no damage to Israel. It's a sad accident, most likely.
@DavidPostill unacceptable yet he's the one who accepted it, so.... only one person to blame. Himself.
But of course like any politician in the world, he'll just throw the blame around.
@LinkBerest We have a small book shop in town that is kinda like that
It's next to the city library and somehow still operates. I think the people running it aren't actually in the business of selling books, it's just the side project of a wealthy family.
I know they funded repairs to the city library when it got hit with water damage some years ago
Although I have to admit I get my books these days in ebook format on my kindle, so every book I read feeds the dread god amazon.
@Magisch sounds suspiciously like what @Mith quote above... ;)
They do sell you books though
i've bought quite a few ones there when I was in school
7:18 AM
You deserve extra points for posting this with your original title — Shog9 32 mins ago
@Mithical Did that post have a different title that was edited during the grace period?
it was originally posted with the title "Three ducks in a tub"
@Mithical I opened it expecting to hit a 'lost soul' button ;)
7:50 AM
But... why?
@Tinkeringbell does the button check OP first? ;)
@ShadowWizardWearingMask It does, I believe it doesn't show up if the OP isn't a new user ;)
8:03 AM
@ShadowWizardWearingMask I forgot to change it after turning my testing question into a real question
9:00 AM
@Mithical what did you test with the ducks?
If it's blocking a question without image description?
if the automated review would complain
@ShadowWizardWearingMask How about one Tuck in a dub instead? Not as good.
Why though? There’s no point of the image description — Daniil 53 secs ago
@Daniil ...really?
I wrote this, might be a useful read
I still don’t see the point
@Daniil If someone is using a screen reader, that's the only way they'd know what the image is at least saying.
9:12 AM
Seriously? It's half a minute of extra work that makes a post more accessible to people with disabilities, helps with searching and displaying results, and... there's no point?
And it helps some with SEO, if that's not an abandoned concept already by now.
@Mithical I am going to clean up those comments before they escalate further, because you are being a bit too blunt there @Daniil, especially the last comment. (and that's coming from a Dutch person).
I'm trying not to.
@Daniil SE is a huge site. Even if the percentage of people with disabilities who use it is tiny, that's still a lot of people simply because the original number is so large. It's often the top Google search result, so even people who aren't regular users visit. Why you'd disagree with efforts to make it more accessible is beyond me.
9:15 AM
I think the discussion is better suited to here, though let Mith and Daniil talk it out first... no need for piles yet.
@Tinkeringbell I’m saying the truth, and I don’t see why someone is Dutch would matter
@Daniil It's a bit of a joke ;) Dutch people are known for being very blunt in other cultures ;)
@M.A.R. NO U
@Mithical See my (deleted) comment :)
@Daniil uh... cause blind people use SE too
and there's at least one blind programmer
9:16 AM
And I'd disagree with the statement that SE doesn't care about accessibility; they've been... lax about it in the past, but they're working on it. And even if the company doesn't care that doesn't mean that we can't make suggestions for things to improve.
@JourneymanGeek 🔫
@Daniil You could argue that SE putting up a warning that alt-text for images is useful... is a way of SE working on accessibility ;) Or are you expecting them to implement some AI that magically generates alt-text?
in some cases, alt text can be useful in other ways, there used to be a read only text based SE front end done by a person who ended up working here...
@Tinkeringbell Please god no
I usually change my alt text to “image” or just leave the default one and will continue to do so
9:18 AM
@Daniil That's okay. The warning would be for people that do care, and the ones that just forget :)
@Daniil In other words, you don't care about accessibility. Fine. At least please leave it with the default placeholder text so that it comes up when the people who do care are looking for posts that need improvemnt.
I still don't understand why you'd be so resistant to it, but it doesn't look like I'll be able to convince you.
@Daniil So you haven't made any valid arguments but let's just end the discussion?
Fine by me. I found this in my spam folder
you have a gun?
@Daniil I can understand not changing the alt text (although I find it really sad that someone would care so little about other people to do this), but changing it to "image"!? That feels like you are being deliberately mean: "Haha, I took the time to write something here, but I made it useless to you, because blind people should suffer". Why in the world would you do something like that?
9:23 AM
Bravo, spamming someone that's even banned US entry
@Tinkeringbell It's chekov's but works well enough
A little clanky here and there
"This is my rifle this is my guuuuunnn"
I'd continue that quote but it's NSFW
@M.A.R. *Chekhov
Like... there is literally no downside to adding alt text! Why would you actively resist attempts to get people to do it more?!
@terdon So people don’t make superfluous edits to my posts
I have an English exam in 3 minutes and I'm gonna take it while having lunch
9:28 AM
@M.A.R. I never ended the discussion
@M.A.R. Have fun
@Daniil "superfluous"?
@Daniil That's what "will continue to do so" implies. We're talking to walls because neither side is going to be persuaded. What's the point of discussing it?
> More than is wanted or sufficient; unnecessary from being in excess of what is needed; excessive; redundant; needless: as, a composition abounding with superfluous words.
Supplied with superfluities; having somewhat beyond necessaries.
@Daniil How did edits come into this?
9:29 AM
@Daniil I know what it means. I'm having trouble believing that you would in good faith use "superfluous" to describe accessibility-enhancing edits.
@Daniil Okay. Let's not start whacking people over their heads with dictionary definitions, that almost never de-escalates a situation.
Are you actually saying that not only do you not want to spend 20 seconds of your time to make someone else's life easier, you would even object if someone else were to do the work and edit it for you?
10 mins ago, by Mithical
@Daniil In other words, you don't care about accessibility. Fine. At least please leave it with the default placeholder text so that it comes up when the people who do care are looking for posts that need improvemnt.
@terdon ^
@terdon That's where edits came into this :)
9:32 AM
@terdon Yes to both questions
Ok, but I am sure we are misunderstanding. I can't believe that @Daniil is really saying that edits that improve the accessibility of a post bother him!
@Daniil Oh. Wow. I... don't have a polite answer to that.
@Daniil WTF?
@terdon First question to ask then is probably "why do they bother you"?
I don’t want someone to waste their time editing alt text if no blind person is going to read my post, same applies to myself
@Daniil How would you know who will read your post?
We have had several posts by blind or nearly blind folks on the network.
9:34 AM
@Daniil Meh. What's a waste of time to some, is useful to others. My parents call gaming a waste of time, I know it's a useful way to relax for me. :)
no need blind persons, try blocking imgur domain for first-hand experience...
And anyway, maybe you don't care enough about other people to spend 3 seconds making their life less hard, that's your choice, but why would you object to other people doing it?
I want them to spend their time better
More to the point, what makes you think you have a right to object? This is SE, where we are supposed to collaborate and editing is an integral part of the platform. If you don't like that, why are you here?
because my previous company did block imgur, and some posts on SE don't make sense after that
9:36 AM
@Daniil I hope for your sake you will never need to use accessibility accommodations.
@Daniil And I want you to spend your time better by helping someone else out. But you don't want to do that, and I don't get to choose for you. Why do you think you can choose for them?
FWIW I think that it is a good idea (hence status-review)
That settles it then ;)
but anyway, I usually chose to blank the alt-text and instead provide textual description below the image, both for visually impaired and non-impaired...
@Tinkeringbell Thanks for tidying up those comments!
9:37 AM
@MetaAndrewT. Does that help with screen readers? (honest question, I have no idea)
@DavidG you're welcome :)
@M.A.R. I thought Chekhov said: "Can you direct me to the naval base in Alameda?".
Seems all the things I said in the comments were said in here too, that makes me happy!
yes, if the text provides a description blanking the alt text is recommended instead of repeating it (I usually add something like "transcription below" or something, though, to make it clear that nothing is being missed)
@terdon If it’s worth it, I’d do it. If you can say this percent of people who use SE are blind and that percent is 1 or above I’d do it
9:41 AM
@Daniil What if it is only one person. Just one. Why would you object to making the life of a single person easier?
@Daniil I consider time spent helping people - which includes increasing accessibility - time well spent. (There's been a bit of an effort over at Science Fiction & Fantasy to add alt texts, and several hundred posts over the past few months have been edited to add alt text, mostly by a group of around five people.)
I don't see why the number of affected users is in any way relevant.
@terdon It’s not worth my time
@Daniil Fine. But why hell would you object to OTHER PEOPLE spending their time to edit your post to help that one person?
9:42 AM
@Daniil OK, that tells me more about your character than I wanted to know, but that's your choice. If someone else is less selfish, why does it bother you that they come in and fix it? It doesn't take any of your precious time.
(Sorry, I'm getting kinda frustrated. I should back off now.)
Worry not! For I am here
This is a frustrating conversation, so no worries. But yeah, a bit of distance might work :)
@Mithical Because I don’t want other people to waste their time
Took the exam in 9 minutes
9:43 AM
@M.A.R. I don’t think anyone was worrying about you not being here
@Daniil They aren't. They are spending their time in the way they choose to spend it. If they thought it was a waste of time, they wouldn't do it. So how come you get to decide for them?
Uhh... this is going south...
and sour...
@Daniil just a general question but... are you okay? You seem stressed and annoyed and I'm not sure if you're just feeling attacked or taking out some other frustration...
Mostly umami
For example, many people would consider spending time with drones and model aircraft to be a waste of time. Do they get to tell you not to do it?
9:44 AM
@Tinkeringbell I’m not okay
@Daniil You haven't responded to my last question about this discussion so I can't go on.
@Daniil Want to talk about that first then, before we come back to talking about accessibility on SE?
Many people would consider answering questions by random people on the internet a waste of time
@M.A.R. Another fork enters the fire!
@M.A.R. What question?
9:45 AM
You are never going to be persuaded, as you stated in the beginning. Why are we discussing this?
16 mins ago, by M.A.R.
@Daniil That's what "will continue to do so" implies. We're talking to walls because neither side is going to be persuaded. What's the point of discussing it?
@M.A.R. 9 minutes is too wasted to finish it...
@Tinkeringbell No I don’t because no-one listens to me anyway
@Daniil I did, in a way hear the frustration... but okay. I do advice you to not take out your frustrations on other people then, or wear them on your sleeve, because that'll make sure they won't listen.
@Daniil We wanted to listen to you, but you're being too defensive which made us difficult in approaching you
@Daniil The gist of your argument is "I don't care", as far as I can tell. That's not a logical argument, and certainly not a valid response to asking why you object to others taking the time to make life easier for others
It just doesn't make sense, barring all the emotions that are around.
9:47 AM
@M.A.R. I don’t want people to waste their time if it’s not going to be productive
Let's drop the alt-text discussion for now, everyone.
@Daniil So why is helping people with disabilities a waste of time?
Is helping an elderly cross a busy street a waste of time?
It's not going to be productive until other issues are out of the way first, and it seems we're not allowed to help with that either.
33 secs ago, by Tinkeringbell
Let's drop the alt-text discussion for now, everyone.
Drop it @M.A.R.
9:48 AM
Having been told they no longer wish to argue with everyone, to be set upon, let's move on to something else.
@Rob Lol that reminds me of when us NNS want to sound formal and cool. We always use "having been"
@Tinkeringbell Who says you’re not allowed to help with that?
NNS Acronyms; IE: real helpful.
9:51 AM
@Daniil Your reaction of 'No I don’t because no-one listens to me anyway' gave me that impression. But if you change your mind, I'm here or wherever you'd like to talk :)
Anyway it sucks that it would seem that I have to correct the English teacher. There was a question where "surly" was a synonym of "arrogance" and don't get me started about article usage
"I have plant next to window"
@Rob non-native speakers (of English)
@M.A.R. is my cousin?
Ah, I was wondering if it was "Nutty Navel Sauce"; when you keep peanut butter in your bellybutton, for snacks at night.
@Tinkeringbell Everything I have to say is in here: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/1511/chq-discussion
@rene Nah they talk funny, probably not even Dutch
And they're not blurry, at least with my glasses on
9:56 AM
@Daniil I'll read that and reply there with some thoughts, if that's okay to you?
@M.A.R. great
@rene Why, does being blurry suck?
I have blurry glasses though...
or maybe pixelated, not blurry
@MetaAndrewT. It'd help if you CLEAN them once in a while
Once every fortnight maybe
@Tinkeringbell Ok
9:58 AM
@M.A.R. I've no problem with it.
Q: Why are the pulmonary vein and artery not like the rest of circulatory system?

Saeed NeamatiI'm learning anatomy. What I learnt is that we have arteries that have oxygenated blood which appears red in color, and branch blood to arterioles to deliver blood to cells via capillaries from where de-oxygeneated blood is collected via venules into veins to go back for oxygenation. So: artery ...

To be fair, I never got why they had to color arteries and veins that way
Just name 'em arteries and veins, then draw the blood according to oxygen content
Is it that, because of the different vessel walls and thickness, they still do look like red and blue IRL when exposed (autopsy, surgery)?
Asking for a biologist friend
@Rob What, no, I don't wonder if my blood is blue. I'm talking about how veins and arteries are colored in schematic portrayals of the vessels
So for the macrocirculation, from the heart to most tissues and back, it makes a lot of sense and is educationally really effective. But why not just color pulmonary arteries blue instead of red, and explain why they're called arteries?
But that Q&A has no example image, to complain that the manner of coloring it was poorly thought out ...
@Rob It's universally depicted like the Google link I put up there as far as I've seen
10:07 AM
It seems clear, standard.
I'll have to come back to the last question.
@Rob well the problem is in the pulmonary circulation, the arteries are colored red even though they carry deoxygenated blood and the veins blue even though the blood that comes back to the left atrium is oxygenated (p~95 mm Hg)
@ter might know
So because they color the pulmonary vessels 'wrong', you get so many confused souls like the one in the biology HNQ up there. I was also confused at one point
Drawing of heart and lungs and my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/… - a longer answer will have to wait a couple of hours, after I finish what I'm doing.
10:26 AM
@M.A.R. No clue at all. I work with genes, none of this messy, wet, whole organism crap! :P
@terdon genes are messy enough already ;-)
I dreamt of an anthropomorphic human, but that is a messy wish...
@MadScientist exactly!
169! New! Messages!
@Rob what are you doing?
@M.A.R. also depends HOW he cleans them...
10:52 AM
@Mithical Why?
@Daniil So that people who use screen readers can still be helped by the post. You don't need to do anything, you don't need to waste your time, Mith was nice enough to do it for you so everybody wins!
@Mithical Please stop
I'm just gonna throw a content lock on it
I don't disagree with what mith did, but I also figure OP's got the last say
11:03 AM
Even better :)
Oh wow. I must say, if that had happened on a site I moderate, I would have suspended the author of the post for rolling back useful edits.
But I really think alt text is useful
@terdon oh tempting.
I mean, if it keeps happening, possibly
The author does not have final say on accessibility. They can choose the wording, within limits, but this is a collaborative site and rolling back helpful edits is a no no.
It's not helpful
@terdon bring this up on meta :D
I'll have something to point at
@Daniil I disagree. But I believe this is a reasonable compromise.
11:05 AM
@Daniil You have made your position very clear on this, however you are also clearly in the minority. The consensus is that it is useful, so...
one where potentially no one's really happy, or won't be at some point.
The edit removed formatting from my post
could you add the formatting back with the alt text?
I have something to say, but it'd probably get me suspended...
@MetaAndrewT. I wish I could invoke the "EVERYONE GETS A ROLLED UP NEWSPAPER" but here we are
11:06 AM
@MetaAndrewT. You can say it if you want, proceed at your own risk
Emm... what is the term with "high horse" thingy?
@Daniil The images weren't quotes, so I removed the quote formatting. That's not the important thing, though.
@Mithical I wanted to have the blockquote formatting
i.stack.imgur.com/8raHg.jpg <- New Picture of our office dog
11:11 AM
I think it's something similar with "get off my lawn"... but with a horse instead?
Get off your high horse?
Doesn't really seem too relevant here though.
Then there's "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"
"You and the horse you rode in on"
Can't think of a horsey version of gerroff my lawn.
certainly not "get off from my horse"...
And now everyone's upvoting the other answer but not mine
Quit horsing around and get off my lawn? :P
11:14 AM
quit lawning around and get off my horse?
@JourneymanGeek And you're happy about that?
@Daniil well - you're in a room full of people who disagree with you
upvoting the other answer is the nicest way to disagree
Thanks everyone, much appreciated
I'm not sure what else to expect tbh
11:16 AM
There are only 2 more upvotes on the other answer anyway. Not much of a signal. (I haven't voted on anything on that post for what it's worth, not the answers nor the question).
Editing bumps a post, so more people will see it. You can't vote on locked posts in any case. You're reading too much into it.
But if you consider that upvotes mean "this answer is useful", then it makes sense that the answer that is more accessible is more useful since it won't exclude a section of users.
Why is my post locked anyway?
At this point, I'd get into a conflict before taking the conflict management course...
cause you didn't want it edited.
SO uh
11:18 AM
@Daniil ...because of a rollback war? Pretty standard for a situation like that.
you got exactly what you wanted?
How does that work? ^
Is it helpful or declined or disputed?
no idea?
What is that message anyway?
what post?
11:20 AM
Deleted NAA on SO
ah uh
then I can't check for you
naw, I was going to check the flag history
@terdon I agree, same here.
The alt text that is being added does not affect the post content in any way, can't see why the author is against adding it.
It's one thing to not add it yourself, I don't always add it myself, but remove it when someone else is adding it? Not good.
sfc coffee
@ShadowWizardWearingMask *sdc
Q: Flag message showing as "removed during a deletion" in the flag history

DaniilI recently flagged a (now deleted) NAA on SO (10k+ on SO) (mirror for everyone). The flag is shown as "removed during a deletion" in the flag history: What does this mean? Is the flag "helpful", "declined", "disputed" or something else?

11:24 AM
sfc? Starbucks Fried Chicken
@Daniil I was in a hurry, boss went near screen
sdc coffee Shadow Wizard
@Daniil brews a cup of Macchiato for @Shadow
@Daniil looks like something new, in the past it would be just "helpful" automatically.
interesting, and I can see an advantage of being neutral with that change
i.e. "the flag is not explicitly taken action but is now moot"
11:31 AM
To make the blind people happy: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/352697/revisions
@JourneymanGeek Fine
@Daniil I'm happy even without being blind. ;)
in which case I guess there's no longer a content dispute
anyway, it's still Wednesday, and I'm worried for tomorrow :/
fully support our clueless client
(work related rant)
11:35 AM
@Daniil I THINK you can't edit it if its locked. I don't think there will be a rollback war, but ball is in your court.
@Magisch d'awww
it's really exhausting when the client can't cooperate while our team has pushing their effort, and I'm not gonna like it tomorrow...
@JourneymanGeek He's exactly as cuddly and fluffy as he looks too
Are the humans allowed to pet him again? :D
I miss being able to cuddle dogs recently :(
11:38 AM
the dog prohibition was the first measure to fall
@JourneymanGeek I like the office dog more
im not kidding btw it was brought up by several people to the bosses seperately
ash is very cute though :3
@Magisch it's a good way to relieve stress while in this condition :)
i watch more cute animal videos recently...
@Magisch That hasn't changed in a decade and half :D
12:07 PM
@ShadowWizardWearingMask What Dr. Methane does!
12:17 PM
> Dr. Methane, Tom Singer, in today's edition of The Santa Fe New Mexican:

In his attack on sensible rules to prevent methane waste from the oil and gas industry (“The full story on methane,” My View, July 30), Ryan Flynn, executive director of New Mexico Oil and Gas Association, demonized environmentalists. Echoing extreme right-wing talking points, Flynn denigrated methane rule supporters as “morally superior” (three times), “arrogant,” and “paternalistic” for wanting to curb industry’s wasteful practices.
This? ^
Or just farting? :D
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Oh, interesting. I just saw an article over here that a lot of old wells in the North Sea are still leaking methane.
12:38 PM
Hiya, little question: a question of mine was marked as a dupe to another one. Both reported a bug and the target duplicate got an answer from a SO developer solving it. However, the bug persists in my question (that is, the answer does not fix my question). Should I ask my question to be reopened? (my question is meta.stackexchange.com/q/351092/209901)
@fedorqui'SOstopharming' Hmm. The answer on your dupe is from 12 days ago, while it was closed 13 days ago. And Ham's answer there clearly states the bugfix is for :, ; and #, not for <s>...
So unless either of those three are still not fixed, I'd leave it, personally.
May 15 '19 at 18:08, by Margarine
@Rob Googles Mr. Methane . . . WTF.
@Tinkeringbell mmm but the feeling is that a [bug] question marked as a dupe to a [status-completed] [bug] may suggest that the original bug is solved, while it is not. Maybe a [status-declined] would help
@fedorqui'SOstopharming' I can do that :)
I think I'll knock the hyperlinks tag off then.
@Tinkeringbell then I can applaud if you do it :P
12:46 PM
All fixed :)
thanks a lot!
No problem :)
@Rob lol who is @Marg
@ShadowWizardWearingMask what was I meant to be shown/have?
@Tinkeringbell wow that's odd
@Ollie follow the arrow trail
12:53 PM
@Shadow follow the arrow trail?
@ShadowWizardWearingMask The avatar tells the tale.
No, actually it isn't.
That's just...
...wrong, to say the least. Anything for green :)?
'Cause I'd hope not.
12:58 PM
That's the blue monkey's cousin.
@Rob bloody monkeys.
Nooo, I can't delete it. Looks horrid.
Anyway, aside frrom HEIC, there's also HAIC, KNEIC, PEIC, and WEIC. Try 'em!

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