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While on the subject of cool pianos youtu.be/v4MtrUIMlV4?t=1m12s
@bobobobo oh hey you're here
what's your opinion on threaded comments?
I only wanted to propose them for meta sites where discussion is more relevant than purely clarification comments like on main sites
the question I bountied was many years old and wasn't specific on that part, so I'll probably post my own with this distinction at some point
but I wanted to know what your angle was on this matter
@user1306322 I have been a huge proponent of threaded comments since 2012 .. I am way into threaded comments and threading in general, in fact I have written a library called "threaden" github.com/superwills/threaden .. you can see my threading fanaticism in action here: meta.stackexchange.com/a/144909
3 hours later…
3:41 AM
Q: How do I get attention for old, unfixed bug reports and feature requests without official responses here on Meta?

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hogI posted a question here on Meta Stack Exchange, or on a per-site meta, regarding a bug I found in the system. I got no comments, or a few comments stating that this is a legitimate bug (and not by design). However, it's been quite a long time, and no official response was ever posted there. Or,...

3:51 AM
I'd say that "I think you need to explain the details well and gain 100's of upvotes", but "we've" done the great explaining and only managed to score a few votes, essentially our own, and simply pushed ahead - of course that's hardly helpful in this case. --- Knowing when to hold 'em, fold 'em and a drinking horse all come to mind.
2 hours later…
5:33 AM
Ben Popper on November 19, 2019

Our guest this week is Kent C Dodds, a developer who makes a terrific impact on the community through his workshops, talks, and newsletter. We chat about why he loves React and how he automated his way from a business analyst to a full fledged software engineer.  Plus, the value of execution versus intelligence, and how version control worked in the days before Git.

The crew chats about how Paul and Sara made the transition from individual contributors to managers overseeing teams of engineers. Sara used to see this transition as a form of selling out, but has a new perspective after having mad …

5:56 AM
Um...that's missing the, you know, podcast.
Q: Blog post announcing today's podcast is missing the link to the audio

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hogThere was a new podcast announced on the blog just now. There is a long description about what's happening in the podcast ...except it's missing the link to the actual podcast. Can that mistake please be fixed? (Also, what's the podcast number?)

6:08 AM
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog maybe they went silent?
18 messages moved to Chimney
6:43 AM
Hey @Tinkeringbell I'm pretty sure our trains pass each other this day. I'm waving like mad, please don't make me look like a fool by not waving back ...
7:01 AM
@Bart Ports also used to be fun with those too
@rene Sorry... I actually fell asleep for a few stops!
7:13 AM
Now I wonder if @rene really did it.... :D
Next time vid or it never happened!
7:54 AM
@user58 morning! Hope the sirens didn't wake you up too early?
tfw you're doing SELECT TOP 99.99999999999999999999 PERCENT to preserve the functionality of ORDER BY in a view
broken code and dirty tricks
Playtime! The development server is stuck/broken/unresponsive :)
@Tinkeringbell hammertime!
@rene do you have a better idea to force ORDER BY into a view?
@JNat cross site spammer to start the morning with. :)
What's wrong with Select Top 100 Percent?? @mag
8:05 AM
the execution plan optimises it out and the results don't come back ordered
@mag ugh, sounds like Microsoft.
@mag have a clustered index included that satifies your order by
Q: Create a view with ORDER BY clause

El Sa7eRI'm trying to create a view with an ORDER BY clause. I have create it successfully on SQL Server 2012 SP1, but when I try to re-create it on SQL Server 2008 R2, I get this error: Msg 102, Level 15, State 1, Procedure TopUsers, Line 11Incorrect syntax near 'OFFSET'. The code to create the...

was about to link that
@rene whatever it is you meant, why not post it as new answer on the SO question above?
!!/blame someone
8:10 AM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard It's John Dvorak's fault.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard you can't have a clustered index on an aggregate function, so on that specific question it won't fit.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard doesn't seem like an option in that specific question's case, since the table already has a different primary key
and that
And the clustered index trick is an implementation detail of specific SQL Server versions, it is not contractual
because it's making assumptions about what the optimiser will do?
8:15 AM
@rene on a view? I have no idea how to do that
the crux of the issue is I have a view and I don't control the select query that gets applied to that view. Our software does not allow me to customize the query that will eventually draw from the view, it is always a SELECT * FROM View. But I do need ordering in the view somehow
right now i'm relying on TOP 99.999999999999999999 PERCENT. Essentially an educated guess for how many 9s I need to not cut a result out of the set. I don't know if this'll stop working when we update SQL Server
@JAD ninja'd by @rene :)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard nah, different reason
Still, flower is fast.
my order by is also in practice a complicated aggregate function
and a top x where x > number of rows of the table? Not sure if that is optimised away or not
8:20 AM
@mag now that I think of that, I also found out years ago I can't order in the view itself, so created a wrapper for the code reading from the view to do that.
not an option in my case
I need to somehow trick the view into ordering
I think the way to do that is to make it so that the source data is already sufficiently ordered that the optimiser will leave the ordering in place
@mag so looks like the Select Top 99999999 is your only option, or something as dirty.
which I think is also what rene was suggesting with the clustered index
the source of the data is differently ordered and used in many other ways in other ordering then I need the view to be
8:22 AM
oh almost forgot
taking @Vogel out of the jar
also, I have 3 views that draw on the same source and do need different ordering - with aggregate ordering conditions in each one
@mag couldn't you programmatically deduce from the tables howmany 9s you need?
@JAD good idea
I've also read something about top 9223372036854775807 (max bigint) working. But I'm not sure how up to date that is.
Select Top 6-8 * From FooBar
8:32 AM
it's dumb that I have to trick SQL Server into cooperating with me since there's no way to turn off the over-optimizing
hmm, the part where you can't control the select statement sounds kinda silly too tbh
Can't necessarily blame SQL Sever for using only half of its functionality
btw, there's no option to use an SP instead of a view?
nope, view only
and yes, legacy software limitations
...or PostgreSQL instead of SQL Server?
Dunno if PostgreSQL supports what you need, but if it does, the client will just have to change connection string. I think. :)
eh, I currently have to work with a database where for the sake of easy filtering, they decided to add indexes on every single column
8:38 AM
tables with 100+ rows
Oh hello @aki long time no see!
can't even calculate index space in properties :P
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I can't change the entire DBMS of our flagship ERP software to support view ordering, lol
hmm... @g3rv4 can you please give aki write access here? (if she wants it, of course)
Since looks like the Localization rooms are all frozen by now....
@mag you can, if you want it enough. :D
8:49 AM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Fixed already. That was no fun :(
@Tinkeringbell yeah.... once while at amdocs our dev server was also down for whole day, had to perform debugging on production server. Not nice at all.
Yeah, that's bad too...
At least I can argue that I don't have the necessary access to that one to try debugging there ;)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard ~rapidly expands into a cloud of shadow, then condenses into droplets, forming into a pool in the darkest corner of the room
9:06 AM
using a mop to collect @Vog and squeeze him into a bucket
~opens a single, mildy bloodshot eye
admitting defeat and surrendering to The Eye of @Vogel
~closes eye again. The liquid shadow in the bucket forms small ripples over and over
moving bucket containing @Vog very gently to the Den so it won't intoxify the innocent Tavern folk
9:30 AM
If you need a bigger mop, let me know ;)
10:44 AM
btw, this needs a final closevote: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/338371/…
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I slept through them.
11:03 AM
@user58 oh. That's not really good... unless there weren't real alarms in your actual area?
I mean, better safe than sorry... we can't depend on Iron Dome to always catch the missiles.
@JAD not sure that's the purpose of that close reason. That was never really a bug, just cache/queue of items to be processed. The "Can no longer be reproduced" is for requests/bug reports that become void when something else changes, e.g. request to change design of accept rate, after there's no more accept rate.
Who here is old enough to remember accept rate, except @rene and @Bart? ;)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Nah, they weren't right by me
@user58 good... :)
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Air raid sirens would be more accurate.
11:07 AM
@TheforestofReinstateMonica yup, missiles from Syria.
I would prefer for this conversation to not be held here, though, especially as I'm headed out now.
That's not a conversation we're having here, not on that tone.
In this case, it seems to be fighting back to regain lost land, from what I understand.
But I could be misunderstanding the situation (this is just based on what I read).
@user58 Alright, I'll head out. Peace.
@user58 Go :) I'm having lunch so a perfect excuse to spend some time keeping this rabble in line ;)
11:11 AM
@Tinkeringbell actually the tone was fine, but you decide.
I was hoping the tone was OK. No one deserves violence. But that goes both ways. It's hard for people who come back from vacation to realize... well they aren't allowed back in their own house anymore. And in fact, the land they grew up in is no longer theirs. That I think is problematic. But so are missiles.
runs to catch bus
catching @user58's bus first
AHhhhhh tp link why does this device have telnet open with username and password of admin D:
11:12 AM
Well, like the trashed messages say... you don't get to imply such things. No arguing about that.
@djsmiley2k-CoW To annoy you, or to tempt you?
@Tinkeringbell well I accidently logged into it while trying to figure out wtf it was on the network of a customer site :D
so, the latter then :)
"accidently".... yeah....
"I accidently entered your house, the door was open..." :D
More like "no one's homes are theirs anymore, it's our land now"
Granted, other countries have done the exact same thing (I'm looking at you, America...)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard More like leaving the toilet unlocked perhaps, if djsmiley is working for that customer ;)
11:14 AM
(wait, can I be anti-America in here?)
implies they're already in the house :)
@Tinkeringbell usually nothing to take from toilets, so less interesting. :D
@ShadowThePrincessWizard knitting patterns?
Golden Toilet Paper
Personal data (most Dutch toilets have a birthday calendar. Don't ask)
11:16 AM
@Tinkeringbell I ask! o_O :D
Here many have dirty jokes posters, or books.
But never saw calendar.... ? lol
Personally never put any of those... just have what we actually need in there.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard That's more of a student house toilet. No books in ours... though now that I'm thinking about it I think mom also hasn't put up the calendar after ours was renovated.
@Tinkeringbell you can ask her to put it, never too late. ;)
Hahaha, well, my guess would be that if we were to have a new one, she wants a new calendar first. Ours was getting oooold ;)
You know... dead people on it and stuff.
Ooh! It even has a 'stuffDutchPeopleLike' entry! stuffdutchpeoplelike.com/2010/11/19/the-birthday-calendar XD
need more youtube 'maker' stuff to watch D:
@Tinkeringbell oh, ouch.
11:24 AM
Dead people on a calendar?
My wife gives my mom a calendar with our kids pictures every year for the last 6-8 years or so.
@TheforestofReinstateMonica calendar marking people's birthdays.
@Tink had it in her toilets. ;)
I don't get it.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard have you read the link? It's a calendar, and it doesn't carry weeks/years, so you just use the same one for years. In the end, that means some of the old people you know pass away. You usually put a cross behind their names, some people put the date/year the person passed away on it too...
I don't think mom did that though.
11:25 AM
I don't use a calendar. I just keep notes and hope I remember things.
I'd have to check ;)
@TheforestofReinstateMonica most people these days rely on Facebook to "remember" birthdays.
I don't have Facebook either. Thankfully I don't celebrate birthdays anyway.
Good for you!
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Oof, yeah, that one is a crime. So, if one of my cousins has her birthday, both her, her sister, my aunt, and my uncle will post something on Facebook, like 'It's my/cousin's birthday today'. And then seriously have the nerve to get mad at you if you don't congratulate all of them, don't reply to all of their posts!
11:28 AM
@TheforestofReinstateMonica A Very Merry Unbirthday to You!
I just disabled posting on my timeline for others, and I'm also not notifying people it's my birthday. Works like a charm ;)
Happy "Earth was in the same approximate position relative to the sun as the time you were born" day.
Or alternatively, Happy "you're one year closer to death" day. But not everyone likes memento mori. :)
Regarding the recent reputation change for question upvotes from +5 to +10: Does somebody already posted a feature request asking to revert the change back?
vulnerant omnes, ultima necat
@Martin Honestly, why'd you want to waste energy on such a thing right now? ... I haven't seen one yet.
11:32 AM
I would expect that somebody would do so.
At least it would be useful that I could redirect users with similar feature requests (or posts about various objections) on per-site metas to the post on Meta Stack Exchange.
They've been smarter than that, it seems. There have been posts asking 'should this be increased', a post asking 'should it be decreased' would probably be close enough that it should be a 'no' answer on those posts.
But the "Should weight be increased" post precedes the announcement by a long time, doesn't it?
Depends on what you thing is a long time... A week or two, at most, I think?
That's 10 days difference with now, and the change went live last week on the 13th? So just 4 days.
11:35 AM
@Tinkeringbell that's one reason I disliked Facebook, yeah
I do not know whether the "leaks" were posted on this site before that. (I gathered form other discussions that there have been a few of them, by they were quickly deleted.)
@Martin Yeah, there's been a few more deleted, I think the 'leaking' happened over the course of a week or so before that, so from November 6th at most?
@Tinkeringbell retry.
@Tinkeringbell Yeah, I remembered that when I saw some of the recent discussions, there were also links to this post and I remembered that it was older than the announcement. At first I thought it was a coincidence and I did not notice at the time that there was only a small difference between the two.
@Hitodama What's the right date then? :)
11:37 AM
Ah, image not found.
@Tinkeringbell Nov 5, possibly 4
XD I'll check on my phone ;)
Oh... well.. 5 sounds good to me too ;)
the emergency dislocation room was created on Nov 5, so...
Okay, then it was 5. Because I know for sure we didn't create that one a day later ;)
11:40 AM
The only leak that I actually saw was posted on November 5. (I had to go to the copy saved on my computer to check the date.)
The mod room leaks?
@Martin Nicely caught then ;)
@TheforestofReinstateMonica What I called a "leak" was a post on meta with the information that change from +5 to +10 is planned. (Before the official announcement.)
Maybe I did not choose the best terminology - considering that there has been a lot of talk about leaks from Teachers' Lounge with around the discussions concerning firing of Monica.
BTW the downvote on question means now -2 change to reputation (IIRC it used to be -1). I missed this in the blog post announcing the change.
11:44 AM
Q: Let's stop displaying a user's accept rate

BartMy feature request (or anti-feature-request perhaps) is the following: Let's stop displaying a user's accept rate. For those of you who know "Fawlty Towers", the whole issue of a visible accept rate and our behavior towards it starts to feel like "Don't mention the war!". We generally seem to ...

@Martin It's always been -2.
I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that it had been -1 before, but... it's always been -2.
Oh, so I have remembered this wrongly. Maybe because weight of upvotes was different, I thought that it is similar for downvotes.
For some reason it's a rather common misconception.
@Bart show off
I killed it! It was meeeee!
11:47 AM
@Martin you probably mix it with the fact downvoting an answer "costs" 1 rep. This hasn't changed, and downvoting a question is still free as well.
No, I remember that downvoting answers isn't free.
@StopHarmingMonica random date game?
That's when the rep change leak was posted
11:50 AM
@StopHarmingMonica can't be.
It wasn't so long ago.
In May it might been planned though.
11:51 AM
When I played around with SEDE to get estimate for old/new reputation I have used -2 for downvotes correctly - but in fact I have copied that part from an older query.
Somehow the comment linking to it got past the moderation on the blog post
@StopHarmingMonica linking to what?
the rep change leak
So? Now that the change is out and official, it's non-issue.
Well that has the original "why we're doing it"
11:54 AM
With the silly gender drama?
With the silly gender drama
What does the rep change thing have to do with the gender drama?
Well, robo approvers in blog comments then. :D
@TheforestofReinstateMonica ...
I get the idea that study was added to keep internal folks happy
11:55 AM
> the original "why we're doing it"
@ShadowThePrincessWizard …
And it's worth remembering that it's not in the final version for a reason
unless the leak was fake ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@TheForest well... the original leak implied the reasoning behind the rep change is to make SE more friendly to female users.
11:55 AM
Exactly ^
The leak was meant to apply pressure. Doing stuff the right way would have worked well enough
Here's how to make SE friendly to female users: Make the site a good repository of knowledge.
Fun fact: That also makes it friendly for male users!
which is why I'm surprised they approved a leak that shows the current reasoning to be disingenuous
They just keep digging don't they?
@StopHarmingMonica since I sometimes see spam in blog comments, I doubt it's being reviewed at all.
11:57 AM
There was no approval.
@Bart "It was I", not "It was me".
nobody approved anything with the leak. The person who released it violated their moderator agreement
And quite frankly it probably is politically inconvenient for better community communication
A: "It was me" or "It was I"

Damkerng T.Pick one: It was I who salted the earth around your flower deck. -- (if you want to sound formal) It was me that/who salted the earth around your flower deck. -- (which sounds less formal) Both are correct, but because it's a test/question in a grammar book, and grammar books usually prefer t...

11:59 AM
It me. I allowed it.
Me eat. Food good.
@TheforestofReinstateMonica yep, I see you know.
reminds me of that time someone tried to use salt purchased for defrosting the sidewalk to defrost their garden
and then had a rude awakening some time later
12:00 PM
@mag ?
You mean they stole the salt?
salting your garden is a bad idea
Why? All the plants died?
Ever heard the expression "salting the earth"?
@user58 not really
Good way to guarantee nothing grows there ever again.
putting a bunch of salt in your soil means nothing will grow there
and it's notoriously hard to fix
Yeah with water it just sips into the ground, and stays there.
But unless the garden is big, one can just replace the soil.
Some $$$ and all is back to normal. :D
yes but going from "I'm going to use this salt to have a nicer view of my garden during snowy season" to "I have to replace all the earth in my garden and everything died" is a pretty rude awakening
@mag lol... totally.
Salting the earth, or sowing with salt, is the ritual of spreading salt on conquered cities to symbolize a curse on their re-inhabitation. It originated as a symbolic practice in the ancient Near East and became a well-established folkloric motif in the Middle Ages. == Destroying cities == The custom of purifying or consecrating a destroyed city with salt and cursing anyone who dared to rebuild it was widespread in the ancient Near East, but historical accounts are unclear as to what the sowing of salt meant in that process.Various Hittite and Assyrian texts speak of ceremonially strewing salt...
12:05 PM
@JourneymanGeek I knew only about Scorched Earth.
aka burning the places you conquered.
This is also why you should never invite Overwatch players to garden parties. Too damn salty.
mental note: don't educate my son to pee in the garden too much
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I'm not too familiar with MSE close reasons either, but when I saw it it already had 3 votes, and the question is answered/moot anyways. I think you agree at least that should be closed
scorching the earth is for a short-term benefit. During an army campaign you don't want the enemy to be able to benefit off the land you just retreated from. Salting the earth was an economical nuke equivalent.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard ammonia is good for plants
@JAD yup
@StopHarmingMonica but pee is very salty, isn't it?
12:14 PM
did you taste it?
maybe it's like honey
guess what?
@ShadowThePrincessWizard if it's salty enough to kill a garden, you probably need to see a doctor
@JAD then you also need to see a doctor
12:15 PM
but how does one find out? :O
@Hitodama hey!! Thought you don't do it anymore. :(
@StopHarmingMonica not me! I don't pee out anymore. ;)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard sometime something has to be done for the room topic to change
@Hitodama change to what?
12:50 PM
"Everything is awesome!"
OR "This is fine. 🔥"
@JourneymanGeek huh
I always thought it'd stop plants growing (i.e. you'd do it on fields).
I guess horses wouldn't like it much on paved streets, as it'd get into their hooves (and dogs too)
So did I!
@djsmiley2k-CoW lol
@JourneymanGeek do doo?
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I'm running on about 4 hours of sleep
Are we sure Wikipedia is right in this case?
maybe people found that salty rocks in fields, caused plants around them to die
@JourneymanGeek I'm on 3.5, I win. :P
12:55 PM
'Must be cursed'
y'all damaging your health
I have sleep apnea, I win.
@mag work
@mag I do it for... 20 years?
I'll catch up tommorrow
12:56 PM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard y'all have damaged your health
Used to be 5 hours, went down to 4 when first kid arrived.
most people need substantially more then they get, and it increases risk for cancer and a host of other conditions among them also alzheimers and similar
in addition to leading to vastly reduced quality of life
It falls under YOLO for me.

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