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2:00 PM
@Caleb For sure. I only mentioned it for general context.
@Gwideon welcome to meta, where the current valuation on drama is sky high
@Zoethetransgirl Oh yeah I know. It makes me really really sad
@Gwideon As well as can be expected, thank you for asking 😃
@MarkAmery if we sort this out, in a manner that... well is satisfactory
@Zoethetransgirl let's how we're soon back to "Meta, where the points don't matter"
2:01 PM
it puts us in a better situation to actually address the other things
@Bart if that ever happens :/
I hope this drama passes soon and it gets resolved in a manner that makes people happy
@Zoethetransgirl I was debating putting my past few answers as CW actually
Sure it will @Zoethetransgirl. Keep the faith. Doom and gloom doesn't last forever.
Imaginary internet points don't matter so much. :/
2:03 PM
@JourneymanGeek Do you realize how many repcaps and gold badges I've gotten out of this?!?
@Snow and?
@Bart SE isn't responding nearly as much as they should, more and more users are leaving, multiple sites are left with only one mod and two sites have none. That's not hope, that's crashing and burning if it doesn't turn around very soon
They don't matter if the community isn't healthy
@JourneymanGeek Says you. Have you seen my meta rep?!
@JourneymanGeek (a lot more than I feel comfortable with)
2:04 PM
@MarkAmery Fair enough. And for the record I'm not categorically opposed to using them in all circumstances, but they do make me uncomfortable and there are situations I will refuse to do exactly what other parties might want me to. By that definition I do fall awry of the proposed CoC in "worse" ways than Monica and certainly a vast majority of mods who resigned.
@Snow precisely
@Snow No worries, as the British would say, "Stiff upper lip", we'll get there in the end
@JourneymanGeek I would be far happier like I was before. Picking up the odd uptick, gaining downticks and generally getting criticized for daring to breath in Meta.
Funny thing is - I've always talked about how meta was a way to influence the community
@Caleb I think one problematic aspect would be if SE required moderators to actively advocate for a particular, arguably political or social justice, agenda.
2:06 PM
@Draken I have this waiting for me, should I be reinstated.
in my opinion if SE reinstated monica alot of the anger would be lessened and we'd be in a better position to deal with the other problems
@Gwideon Nah I'm trying to work and failing miserably
@OrangeDog Something like this yes, with the caveat that I don't think it's a hill to die on in all scenarios. I don't go checking out the history of every profile I see online to make sure the alleged gender is in alignment with my understanding of the universe.
@Gwideon That would be ideal
@Gwideon Pretty sure that ship has sailed. And possibly sunk.
2:06 PM
@Gwideon american company, they can't and won't
but there's a few burnt bridges I suspect
@PaulWhite That's exactly what I believe they've done and are doing and have dug in their heals that they will go on doing.
A lot of people have died on a lot of hills over the past couple of weeks.
yeah I know but that's the ideal situation
@Caleb I have my fingers crossed that they are not going to say that in the CoC or elsewhere.
2:07 PM
We don't really know yet
@Gwideon That's your idea of an ideal solution. Other people may have other ideas or are not sure what to do
and tbh, this would be the worst time to do it
@Snow No one has died.
@PaulWhite Don't hold your breath.
@Aza I think us doing something in a way that was obviously going to cause a significant backlash surrounding both the action we took and the perceived lack of planning, management and communication violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. That we'll continue will be significant. The end ideal result is when people are able to take actions like the one you took, and connect them with our reaction, in a way where our reaction was the best conclusion. If that makes sense. — Tim Post ♦ Sep 30 at 17:45
2:09 PM
@PaulWhite lots of people have picked the hills they want to die on?
@PaulWhite I think Caleb means to say that mandating preferred pronoun use (without any ways to dodge the problem) is, in itself, mandating that people advocate for an agenda. Not sure if you understood his meaning.
@JourneymanGeek I'm objecting to the overly-dramatic language.
@PaulWhite people got fired, people retired, people downed tools, askers and answerers and reviewers got abandoned by those who fell, reputations got burned, trust got burned. I'd say that's a lot of hills.
@MarkAmery I did thanks!
Aha - so you're hoping the CoC is going to remove that requirement?
2:10 PM
Anyways I think i'm gonna get going so I don't set some one off
@Snow Just depends on how large the hill was, some chose a nice molehill whilst others went up Everest...
@Snow I'm not sure that's not what "to die on a hill" means
Geez how do all you mods hold down a job while also being mods
Q: What is the origin of the phrase "A Mountain I'm Willing to Die On"?

TathagataI hear the phrase "A Mountain I'm Willing to Die On" too many times at work and figured it meant "is this the battle I choose to fight today"? But this is used too many times on the interwebs to google down to the origins of it. Can someone point me to it?

2:11 PM
@Nacht Boss key.
@Nacht usually moderation dosen't take much time
ive barely been able to concentrate on work this week, trying to read all the angles, and im just a random
@Snow I know, I was one of them - and still am. I just think excessively strong language helps nothing. You are free to carry on talking about death on hills, of course, I just wanted to note my objection for your consideration.
On the old relicensing to 3.0: I love this one singular comment
Ehm, are you allowed to just relicense everyone's content? — Lightness Races in Orbit Aug 24 '15 at 10:46
@Nacht this isn't a normal situation
2:12 PM
That was the entire conversation on the relicense
To be honest - SE's often the place people go to get away from stress and politics and such
Several years later
@MarkAmery I would be a lot happier applying a particular policy in my day-to-day moderation duties than I would be actively advocating for some more general agenda. I'm a janitor, not a thought leader. If someone flags something, I will handle it as best I can, guided by the CoC and the other usual things.
I'm only now realizing the user that made that one comment was the same user who raised concerns about the 4.0 relicensing
Q: Will concerns regarding the move to CC BY-SA 4.0 elicit any further dialogue from Stack Exchange, Inc.?

Lightness Races in OrbitFifteen days ago, it was suddenly announced that the user-contributed content on Stack Exchange had been relicensed as CC BY SA 4.0. The change took immediate and retroactive effect and is still in place. However, serious concerns were immediately raised about the legality and morality of this ...

@Nacht My wife is extremely rich
2:14 PM
my cousin sent me a link to the main meta post, i said "monica cellio got fired???" and ever since i havent been able to do anything besides read all about it
3 years later, same user, different reaction
@Stevoisiak there was a whole lot more than one user who raised concerns. Lightness was also not the first.
2:15 PM
@OrangeDog then there's "Oh, I changed the licence version yesterday"
At least he fronted
2:25 PM
@enderland Hola.
I knew I shouldn't have clicked that link on the meta post :D

:wave: :-)
There's a lot of links that I regret clicking. :D
What was the smoke detector?
@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen I meant many meanings, not many reasons. That's a weird mistake. @MarkAmery.
Something adult?
2:28 PM
@Stevoisiak dunno, smokey finds a lot of spam
@Stevoisiak Nothing major, it's been deleted now. It was a user saying mistakes may happen and the internet needs to give up on working out the correct pro-noun. Looked like a trolling answer, but could be wrong
meta is a bit like tv tropes rn
meta is a bit like
Meta has gone past plaid into meme
2:31 PM
that scene from the simpsons where they pan across the place labeled "springfield tire fire"
@PaulWhite So true.
Hey Josh
is that a special New Contributor wave just for me?
It is.
Considering how new you are.
2:32 PM
aww I didn't get one. I feel foreveralone
Or maybe it's because of how new I am.
which considering I forgot I clicked here until I heard the ping, I guess is fair :P
Either way, newness is involved.
@JoshDarnell How sweet does it taste saying that
It's pretty great, not gonna lie.
Q: Why is a moderator who has been around for 8 years a new contributor?

Pika the Wizard of the WhalesToday while I was reading a linked question on this answer, I found that Paul White, a moderator who joined more than 8 years ago and currently has around 55k reputation points and 900 posts, is showing up as a new contributor on this question. He's not showing up as a new contributor on his s...

2:34 PM
good times
I wanted to provide some evidence for my claim.
Oh I thought this was a strictly rumour- and speculation-based room
Introducing facts will be an interesting new angle
Let's go with it and see how it turns out
2:36 PM
Sorry, I haven't been active here in a while.
I'm glad to bring my valuable thought leadership to the room.
fastens seat belt
@JoshDarnell Not in NYC like everyone else this weekend?
> my feelings
@PaulWhite If I felt abused at SQL Saturday Atlanta, just imagine what would happen if I were around Erik, Joe, and Forrest all at once.
2:40 PM
Doesn't really bear thinking about
@PaulWhite (if that was a joke about some current US politics events I'm completely out of the loop, being non-american)
I wonder how many will survive intact
I'd likely never recover.
@user1306322 No there's an event the regulars of another room are going to this weekend. Josh wasn't invited because no one likes him, which is sad.
2:41 PM
@JoshDarnell Can you imagine if Sean were there too.
Wait, wait, wait ... Pekka active on the site. Oded in chat, and now we have an @JoshDarnell?
It's the great browning
Am I having a stroke?
@Bart It's just like old times.
@PaulWhite Classic.
2:44 PM
@Bart It's SE homecoming
@JoshDarnell old drama was better drama in my opinion.
@Mgetz Elon would probably like the idea of the speed range after "plaid" to be called "meme"
@Machavity holy frickin Balpha.
@user1306322 not particularly into sharing ideas with him at the moment
@Bart Yes, I miss the days when the most frustrating thing on Meta was having to use all my votes downvoting Neal / Panama.
2:46 PM
@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen Yeah, I understood. Not that weird. I used the word "reasons" in the comment you were replying to; transposing a noun for a similar-sounding one that your brain has recently accessed is a commonish mistake; I make it sometimes and so do my coworkers.
Ah I see the non-apology has been unlocked
@PaulWhite "Statement of regret". That's how I think of it.
more accurate certainly
@Snow "We regret you were offended by our being offended on the behalf of someone else that was not actually offended" 🙄
well semi-offended
2:53 PM
sigh can we go back to just assuming positive intent and not getting too worked up?
me? it was a joke
@PaulWhite no just in general. This whole thing and all the drama strikes me as something that could have been avoided if people just assumed positive intent.
oh yes indeed it could, and should
I could have sworn the CoC included that at one point. But apparently not. It probably should.
"We expect users to assume that others have positive intent in their actions first"
3:03 PM
@Mgetz Are you sure it's not All suspects are guilty?
Second workplace moderator has requested reinstatement. He's just copying me though.
@Machavity right now it seems to be, but that doesn't make for a very good community
also I have a squeak in my desk and I cannot for the life of me figure where... to fix it
I read a really good (though long) chat discussion yesterday where several parties had highly opposing views yet managed to treat each other with courtesy and respect throughout. Many interesting points were raised and debated.
Just wanted that on the record.
@PaulWhite Yep it's possible, it just depends on all parties being willing
3:07 PM
it's not even that hard tbh
everyone gets more out of it as well
people eh
@JourneymanGeek Forgotten any chat suspensions recently?
@PaulWhite uhhhh?
I'll take that as a yes then
3:10 PM
@JourneymanGeek The initials EC may be involved somehow
We don't discuss suspensions D:
ha ha ha ha ha
Genuinely laughed at my monitor
@PaulWhite the 'fun' part is knowing I'm going to have to deal with a few particularly toxic individuals on the network
But well
I'm not alone :)
once more unto the breach
3:12 PM
@PaulWhite also I suspect a few people overstate my importance ;p
it is possible
it's funny but the metaphor that sprang to mind was "dog with a bone"
@Mgetz probably on the connection of 2 sides if it's a rectangular wooden desk in which case might need to sand it down a bit; if it's just a wooden surface on metal then submerge the entire metal portion in WD-40
And wrap in duct tape.
@user1306322 it's the worlds most garbage flat pack metal and glass desk in existence. That I'll probably just replace with Ikea stuff because that's not garbage.
3:14 PM
@JourneymanGeek I'm not responding to pings there
literally the glass panels aren't cut straight and don't sit flat
@PaulWhite oh damn
but I saw your message
Ok, good enough
and I think you understand why its there
@PaulWhite I was trying to figure out what "to dog" means if dog was used as a verb in this phrase
3:15 PM
as long as its not dogging
@user1306322 do not look that up in urban dictionary!
which means nothing like you assume it is
too late
@PaulWhite I wouldn't dare lol
3:17 PM
I innocently asked about a phrase once and a "helpful" user directed me to UD
closed that tab fairly quickly
pc enthusiasts recommend using an ikea desk surface board but instead of the legs use "Alex" drawers which add... drawers to it which many find more useful than just legs
the internet outside SE is a scary place
@user1306322 my dream desk is one of their butcher block countertops and A frames
3:18 PM
oh yea that looks nice
my workstation is a couch, a coffee table, and a glass of pinot noir
@PaulWhite ooh
I have an old dining table
my dream desk is the one that just floats in the air so that I don't tangle wires and my legs on its supporting structure
and a secret labs gaming chair I love to bits
sounds pretty sweet setup
3:19 PM
Having a nice chair can't be underestimated ;)
takes notes
@user1306322 there's ways to mount stuff like that
I can definitely recommend dat 399 chair but for like 130 on a knockoff site, they're all the same it's just extra for the brand name
When I move out, I might do the countertop ;)
I got a fabric covered one (which seems to be mainly an SL thing) cause pleather is horrible in the tropics, and I would prefer to avoid leather.
@JourneymanGeek yea but then I'm gonna see the linkchain bolted to the wall, I'd do it if I was into a medieval aesthetic but I wanna keep my periphery clean
3:22 PM
seat goes back all the way like a car...
@user1306322 Well I was thinking L shaped supports and toggle bolts/wall anchors
a buddy of mine just bought a used car seat and welded it onto a heavy duty office chair 5-star stand thing, and it even has 24 volt butt heating that works
keeping your periphery clean is always good advice
no rgb tho
@PaulWhite good dating advice too
3:24 PM
RGB is easy ;)
@user1306322 for sure
You can literally just order a roll of LED on a tape with everything you need online
yea I had a problem with that about a year ago
I tested a bunch of RGB and RGB+W leds from 4 manufacturers available here and they all have a massively wide range of calibration deviation on the same strip
can't precisely pick a color, it's gonna look all muddy
so I just bought a bunch of incandescent lamps and a dimmer
the few times I bought an "ambilight"-like kit for monitors, same thing
then I just kinda realized I didn't miss it at all
pc tower is under the table now, so zero rgb life for me
in other news, how's the weather everywhere?
Windy here on Long Island
3:39 PM
Cool crisp fall day in Montana
rain, rain, rain
normal spring here. if you don't like the weather, wait 30 minutes
It's going to be in the 90s again today.
13c here and heavy overcast
3:55 PM
hot, dry, dead. i saw rain in the distance yesterday, but it didn't come this way
Oh, the irony ...
(y'all know which post that is ...)
What's that?
Q: 'Saviour' of Lost Souls

Glorfindel 'Saviour' of Lost Souls Meta sites, but especially Meta Stack Exchange, see a lot of 'lost souls', users who have no idea that they're on Meta (e.g. because of a suboptimal email or a Stack Overflow question ban) and post a question which might or might not be on-topic on another Stack Exchang...

4:04 PM
Oh Pollyanna.
Is referring to something is like a hooker really inappropriate for the site? Aren't most of us adults?
@StephanS Think of this like the water cooler at work
well one of my comments was deleted (and I kinda understand why) but I wrote "Stack Exchange was the hooker we all fell in love with and it's time for us to understand that it never cared about us in the first place"
I can see why that would be deleted
so... why would you repeat it?
4:17 PM
that might not go down well with everyone
I would expect that be removed
I just don't see what rule it broke
It... broke the spirit
I would not link anyone or anything to the term hooker, ever
Regardless of whether or not the language is over the line, it doesn't really contribute anything, does it?
4:19 PM
what if it's just a badly named tool
or a Rugby player
or indeed, a prostitute
@JoshDarnell well it was a following comment to any other comment
@StephanS Uh, yes?
If it's talking about fishing equipment, it should be fine
@OrangeDog meh ...
4:20 PM
Most of us know about the alphabet words too but we don't use them left and right. In fact, doing so would be the opposite of adult.
Wait, no, that's hook, not hooker
The discoverer of cells?
I was discussing that the other day in ELU chat
Apparently, Newton and Hooke are both at fault for Hooke taking all the flak
I thought hooker would fit because It's common knowledge that you shouldn't fall in love with a hooker because all they're after is your money
@StephanS I don't think you even need a metaphor, just say "site"
I think maybe if you have to rely on "what specific rule does this violate" to identify something potentially rude/offensive, you're going to end up accidentally saying a fair number of rude/offensive things
4:22 PM
@StephanS I'd argue that violates the "Be nice" policy
Remember, there are real people at Stack Exchange
@StephanS even if the sentiment isn't rude, hooker is a rude word for prostitute
I'll just say, that topic is part of what resulted in the firestorm that ruined js chat
@OrangeDog I wasn't aware of that
@OrangeDog TIL
4:23 PM
@KevinB I hope they're okay now
@Stevoisiak OK but if you get the metaphor it isn't mean it's just kinda sad
@StephanS It can be both
care to explain
yeah, I think we should move on, the wording of that comment isn't a good fit at a water cooler, no matter how well you think the metaphor fits. And the examples don't get any better.
I kept trying to come up with a good way to say that without being snarky
4:27 PM
@rene can we talk about it alittle more I think i'm learning something important here
2 messages moved to Trashcan
filling a CoC with concrete examples of rude things is rather counter-productive
@StephanS no
@rene ok, I guess I'll just continue in the world with my misconceptions
4:30 PM
There may be a time and place to discuss that, but tensions might be a wee bit high as of late.
even without tensions I doubt I want to have that discussion here, given how it developed.
4:48 PM
@Stevoisiak Honestly, @rene you're a long-timerer, have you seen a bigger drama than this?
I haven't
There's that vaguely important SF thing from 2011 (?) but that was one site and it was over some high-reps being a bit rude to newer users or something like that.

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