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02:00 - 14:0014:00 - 23:00

2:13 AM
@Stormblessed the whole point of this exercise is not seeing spam 😁
2:36 AM
@JourneymanGeek I guess so lol
3 hours later…
5:10 AM
Q: A student has to answer 8 out of 10 questions in an exam. How many choices does the student have if the first 3 questions must be answered?

Hanyi KohQuestion:A student has to answer 8 out of 10 questions in an exam. How many choices does the student have if the first 3 questions must be answered? Can someone help me out with this question? My way of solving this question is to apply the pigeon hole rules so [7/3]=3 this is the only way I can...

Needs the needful
^^ needs one more (@Bart @rene @Glorfindel)
5:34 AM
A: Does Stack Exchange insist on a special language for posts? Please describe

Shog9English is a living language; it changes slowly but constantly. Old words take new meanings, new words replace old, and sometimes old uses resurface in new contexts. Also, sometimes there are emoji. We gather together here from across the earth, bringing with us myriad notions of language and me...

6:43 AM
Some day, I hope to write half as good as that.
Shog, not Smokey. ;p
@fbueckert the saga is not over then. When will the sun shine on you? ;)
@JourneymanGeek awww, poor Smokey
@Bart smokey and I have an infamous rivalry ;p
7:01 AM
Is it fair to assume it will be a bit slower over the weekend compared to the last few days?
I hope so
I'm not sure though
Don't jinx it!
I'm not
I'd jinx it if I'd say its usually quiet on weekends ;p
Not you, the flowery one
yeah, I'm just bored
7:06 AM
go, I donno do
do whatever flowers for fun
hands @rene a wrench
1 hour later…
8:32 AM
@JourneymanGeek flowers love to just stare at the sun
9:02 AM
11 messages moved to Chimney
9:20 AM
@rene unless we get an official update
Nah, not over the weekend. And I'd say communications are done.
The next update will likely be the CoC change
Eh. I do hope folks manage to get some rest :/
One good thing in this whole turmoil: much more MSE activity, much more votes on questions.
e.g. simple "How to delete my account" got 10 upvotes in a day, while usually it won't get even 2.
@MadScientist question is if it'll get even lower score than the "apology"?
9:31 AM
@Shadow I don't think the actual change to the CoC will be unreasonable. It'll still get hit in full force by the discontent about the way this has happened
Well, on normal days I'd guess it will get like -200 or so. But now... -800 or less. (net score)
Between -100 or -800 the score gets pointless anyway
@Shadow Such things usually go to the blog, and there are no downvotes.
@MadScientist I suspect that even if the actual change is reasonable, there will be some backlash simply because the community is (rightfully) upset about other events pertaining to it.
9:46 AM
what happens beyond -800?
@rene I give about 10% to revealing a minor CSS bug. 90%, nothing in particular.
It isn't entirely pointless. It shows the strength of feelings by the community about the topic. It is a bad proxy, of course, but a proxy non the less.
Does it? Only 20 or 30 mods publicly took action, a few thousand users flocked on Meta. You could argue it is just a ripple, given SO's scale.
I'm not saying it is not significant to us. You might spin this in all kind of directions.
10:02 AM
I agree that the MSE community and the number of mods in total is a drop in the ocean. And as an employee we needed to remind ourselves of this fact every now and then. But - it is also the best avenue to getting direct feedback (which for oh so many companies is a problem).
Mods are also the face of the site as far as most users are concerned. They are the ones that directly interact with the coalface.
I think the effects will be much stronger on the smaller sites than on SO, and it's not as if the company cares much about those anyway
Sadly, I think you are right.
in The Comms Room on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 15 hours ago, by user619714
When the stats are in it's unlikely that there will be even the slightest blip on any chart that matters. People will have still asked (mostly crappy) questions on SO and will have gotten answers. Everything else is just noise. All of the hot air on MSE and in the Tavern on Meta is just that. SO just kept rolling along and to any statistically significant level noone noticed the drama on MS£.
@Oded to an extent. Most outside complaints about "mods" already seem to confuse regular users with elected moderators anyway. Outside our bubble I don't expect any of this to have much of an impact
What is this outside you talk about?
10:18 AM
I wonder if it'll make it harder to recruit new mods, now that we know that SE is willing to throw us under the bus publicly. Though I suspect this will be mostly forgotten in a while.
@rene it's concerning that you as a flower are asking that.
@Bart cave fern
@MadScientist Hold an election and I'm sure plenty of people will nominate themselves again.
10:30 AM
@Bart tyranny of large numbers.
Which, by the way, is my new favorite neoportmanteau.
@JohnDvorak to an extent, sure.
Do you know what's left when all the good mods leave? The bad ones.
@Oded and current users are who the new users see
The large numbers will also guarantee some decent new ones @JohnDvorak.
@MadScientist I think this might have a knock on effect on quite a few things ><
10:32 AM
@Bart those won't stay long even if they dare apply
I doubt that
@Bart or just get elected, and not do much
In the worst case, we still have a juicy autopsy on our table :/
And running a community goes a lot further than mechanics. If the community matters at all.
And critically if you want folks to get more than "I'm going to throw the first thing that comes out of my head" and "People throwing flippant comments", enough people actually need to care
Bold prediction time: This situation will eventually blow over. If a large part of the moderators don't reinstate themselves, new moderators will step up. Those moderators who leave will be (and are already) portrayed outside our bubble as bigots who threw a hissy fit over some pronouns. And developers Googling for answers couldn't give a toss anyway. Until the next kerfuffle ...
10:36 AM
@Bart maybe
or the sites slowly start losing folks
and just turn into generic quora-alikes
@JourneymanGeek I don't see that happening. But time will tell.
@Bart so...
for all my sins, I'm also a management major
Its been a while
We used to have a technique called SWOT for looking at a business.
I'm not the best person at it but...
If Teams and Enterprise turn out to be very profitable, the SE network might turn into just a glorified demo of the actual product
So you have to work on your pension and your butt. I would say that is pretty well targetted ... ;) — rene 19 mins ago
10:40 AM
But the network has been seen as a thing that drives traffic to other things for a while
Careers for example
I can't really speak for the smaller sites. There this might have a real effect. But for SO? Unless the Threat is coming from a real alternative, SO is simply too massive a resource.
@Bart I'm part of a smaller site
So here's the tricky bit. Assuming a "hostile" SO managment...
and that the main goal is to drive stuff elsewhere, and the network is a "glorified" demo of an actual product
what's a good stratergy?
@MadScientist What do you mean "turn into" πŸ˜€
Burning it all down, so to speak basically means we lose our spaces
Would be a PR disaster
@JourneymanGeek Stop that. You're scaring me.
10:44 AM
but everyone loses
@JohnDvorak why?
Because it might actually be true.
That's the worst case scenario though ;p
I don't think SE management is entirely hostile
So we're hopefully in slightly better shape
Methinks the worst possible scenario would be if SE manages - wittingly or unwittingly - to rally the entire Internet into a crusade against conservative, ahem, world views.
Well, honestly
That wouldn't be too bad in a few ways
If the company really wanted to be hostile, they'd bring out far bigger guns than they had.
10:46 AM
but I doubt SE has that push
The more I look around, the more it seems to me that the best people's religions tend to be rather conservative.
And broadly many of the goals folks have in general seem to align
I'm not the best people? ;p
I didn't say that.
So a big part of the problem is politely letting folks know "hey, so... we agree but, maybe the way it was said dosen't work"
For mine, the main disconnect is between the old model (curated Q & A) and the new model, which appears to be more about teaching beginners. Tim has said that the library of Q & A we were looking to build is very largely complete, and has been for some time. I'm talking about SO only of course, because SE cares less about other sites.
10:49 AM
With old SE - it was smaller so it was easier to get through to someone who got it
@PaulWhite as an old fart...
I often have trouble finding the best way to state conservative opinions.
beginners were just as bad in the old days
Just less of them
I should know, I was one ;p
@JourneymanGeek Maybe I'm wrong, but in a weird way I think this can be positive for corporate SO. Value to them comes in an increased userbase. There is probably a KPI target to meet in there. So you identify what's stopping people from joining. You get the message that users won't join or leave out of a fear for abuse or actual abuse.
So you address that. You do so somewhat forcefully in a take it or leave it manner, but you're clear. Publicly (again outside the bubble) you can say - somewhat rightfully - "We're doing the good thing here. We're inclusive. If you don't like that, tough luck." If in the end that leads to growth in your userbase, you win.
@Bart hmm
I'm trying to work out how to say this without letting out too much that's out already
@PaulWhite If they said outright "we're done building a library, let's try the one-off help in big for a while", I'm sure there would be less discontent than trying to trick prolific curators into cooperating.
10:51 AM
@Bart so.. there was an attempt to do a COC in 2014
I kinda missed it
the 2018 one basically pulled in the community
There were a few things that.. went horribly wrong that caused all these events
And honestly
@JohnDvorak "...one-off help in big for a while..." ?
@Bart They're super-exclusive to the conservative folk though, and I do feel that on myself as well.
@JourneymanGeek no need to risk letting out too much for the sake of my ramblings. It's a bit of a cynical take perhaps, and I still assume most of the underpinning come from a positive place of good intentions.
the massish mod quit is literally folks knowing no other way to get through in this situation
@PaulWhite s/help/help thing/
10:53 AM
@JohnDvorak Thanks. I'm sure they will say that in due course, once they've worked out how they're going to do it.
There's a lot of aspects of this that still haven't been addressed
@JourneymanGeek which makes the meta folk quite upset
Here's the really difficult part - now the changes they want to do are forever linked with these events
@JohnDvorak Oh, its more than that
@JohnDvorak One thing I hadn't fully realised about being "inclusive" before, is that it explicitly does not include everyone. The argument is that vast groups are already included, and therefore need no assistance from "inclusiveness".
@JourneymanGeek "went wrong" implies that they had good intentions. Sorry but what they did can't possibly come from a place of good intentions.
10:55 AM
@Shadow I was there
@Shadow One can have good intentions and still be utterly inept.
and honestly, if I cannot assume good intentions
@PaulWhite The thing is, if you hurt a large number of people by calling them bigots... and the smaller group you wanted to help ends up hurt as well... that means you've done something wrong.
I can't in good concience sit here and do what I have been doing the past week.
@JohnDvorak I don't disagree.
10:56 AM
@JourneymanGeek I sit here just for the sake of my friends. Not for SE.
@Shadow not the company.
Sometimes you fight people
Unless you didn't mean me
sometimes you fight for people.
10:57 AM
Sometimes you fight through people
@M.A.R. sure I did 😘
There's been some cries to boycott the company, but... I don't think it will work.
Sometimes you make people fight each other and you bet on that ... no wait, you didn't see that. I said nothing! There is nothing illegal going on here!
My issue with all the people saying we should go back to normal is that SE have not yet done anything to deserve our trust and cooperation back.
Otherwise, it just sends the message they can literally do anything, with no consequences if they just wait it out.
y'all remember this?
Q: Please Join Us in Welcoming Our New Meta Stack Exchange Moderators!

Tim PostWe're really excited to announce the appointment of three new community moderators to Meta Stack Exchange! I know this might come as a really big surprise to some, and I can't wait to talk about it, but let's not delay the introductions any more. Please welcome ChrisF, Tinkeringbell and Journeyma...

10:58 AM
Nope, sorry
Haha kidding.
@PaulWhite well what happened is like stabbing someone in the back. If that comes from good intentions, I'm really curious to know what those intentions were.
That's why I'm not a mod here any more
We were supposed to help stop this from getting out of hand :/
11:00 AM
"Sorry! There was a fly on your shoulder, the knife missed."
Don't be too hard on yourself
@M.A.R. shrug
I did what I could
And that's most definitely appreciated
I'll keep doing it.
@Shadow To my naive still juvenile mind, things like this are done when communication aims to be minimal
They probably didn't want to be in a position to justify themselves in the first place, for good or bad reasons.
11:01 AM
@Shadow I presume the intentions were to send a strong message about respecting people.
When things calm down, and we have that talk I'm going to certainly bring it up
Now, it's extremely awkward because they need to after every passing moment
ah crap. I shouldn't have brought that up
@JourneymanGeek I'm pretty ready here for some altruistic things to do. Lead the way doggie
@PaulWhite by doing the total opposite? Nice. Like parents trying to teach their children not to be violent by constantly hitting them.
11:02 AM
@JourneymanGeek Too late, I'm gonna, uh
@M.A.R. naw, I'm no leader. Just someone trying to herd cats.
@Shadow As I understand it, there are two main points of general agreement:
1. The change to the CoC is a good one in principle.
2. SE made a monumental mess of communicating and implementing that change.
@Shadow sometimes you can have the best intentions
A dog herding cats. Hmm.
do something for all the right reasons
then... well
11:03 AM
@JourneymanGeek You mean sheep? πŸ‘
maybe rabbits I donno.
crabbits. Dangerous cat rabbit hybrid.
Ooh, Woundwort
@Bart also with crabs πŸ¦€
I'm having spaghetti crisp for lunch
11:05 AM
I mean I had nothing but good intentions when I attempted to build some shelving for the spare room. My ineptness meant it was a complete disaster, which had to be rescued and redone by a skilled professional. Same same with SE and the CoC. They should get a pro in.
@PaulWhite if that was the case they would have explained and apologized for the mess. They didn't.
Just hire me and my smiting stick. Everyone who doesn't behave gets it @PaulWhite.
@Shadow Please see point 2 πŸ™‚
@Shadow So... one of the really hard parts here is getting the full picture, and getting in someone elses shoes
@Bart If it were up to me...!
11:07 AM
@Bart Can I choose where to be hit? πŸ˜‚
and even when you're there for all of it, you don't get all of it
@Shadow you can select one place where not to be hit ... the rest is up to me
Is there a petition I can sign to get Bart in as CEO?
@Shadow You can sorta argue that they tried to apologize. A certain post even does start with the word "apology".
I don't think I could advocate on that.
11:09 AM
@JohnDvorak where?
Did SE attempt to ship that apology on a Friday?
@Shadow First word of the title, IIRC
Never saw it
Ah, sorry. It was the last word of the title.
If you mean the apology, it's in the end of the title.
11:14 AM
Glad we can all agree it's an apology ... furiously fanning flames ... :p
pissing on the flames to distinguish them, forgetting the fuel I just drank would cause the opposite
@Shadow too much w(h)ine? :P
@PaulWhite Mr. Stocker wins, sorry. ;)
Well George could be Head of Apologies I guess.
11:18 AM
@JohnDvorak and lost my (Whis)key
@PaulWhite hired to write their speeches? Good enough for me.
Motion carried.
I'll let you guys debate whether or not I'll be your new CEO. I'm off to ride some virtual laps around Laguna Seca.
Will you stick as CEO?
More Smite than Stick
smite the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks
11:41 AM
The yuck parts
11:53 AM
Will there be carrots?
12:04 PM
@PaulWhite in spaghetti?? That would be new.
@Shadow Ha! No. To go with the stick.
12:17 PM
@Shadow sure
Ash would approve 😁
He loves both things
@PaulWhite the only stick that comes to mind in those times, except @Bart's is the stick from gaming.SE ;)
Dang it's nugget not stick :(
1:21 PM
@MadScientist No, they won't have any problem getting new recruits. In some cases they won't be quite the same caliber because the people they really need most won't put up with that, but there are plenty of folks out there (and this is cynical but not directed at any individuals) who would/will grab at the chance to flex a little power themselves.
Lots of people will assume they can do better or that it will be better in the next go 'round β€” suppressing any warnings or reservations they may have ... given the prospect of a diamond.
@PaulWhite Ya, maybe not too sensitive there. I bet they are working hard, I just happen to be convinced the direction they're going is wrong.
There is more coming, apologizing here was our first step. We've been working hard. — Sara Chipps ♦ yesterday
Would anyone be willing to flag this comment workplace.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6362/…
@bruglesco the unfriendly flag feels... too mild
Also the one under it seems problematic too
1:30 PM
@Caleb I'm pretty sure they weren't trying to be sensitive.
We need a class above unfriendly?
Not sure how to deal with that one. Shaming the mods for standing by their communities seems... Hostile.
I don't see a shaming comment, is it deleted now?
Looks like it. I missed it too. Probably for the best.
@bruglesco sigh
this makes me mad
1:33 PM
@PaulWhite Nope, sadly I think this was not actually quite as rushed a decision as they are making it sound like now, and that they did the math ahead of time figuring the backlash would eventually be worth the stance it earns them.
@Caleb umm... There was no apologizing. So yeah more of this nothing is coming. Hooray.
@Caleb the user has a bit of a history
I'll cite Tim Posts's now deleted comment that I put in hear earlier as evidence of that.
@Caleb I'm certain of it. Still doesn't excuse the way it was handled or communicated.
Oh I guess it needs context. That user had another more derisive comment elsewhere.
1:35 PM
@Caleb Was it one-boxed here? Note sure I've seen it.
@JourneymanGeek Sorry, which user?
@PaulWhite Yes.
@PaulWhite Nope. They probably do wish they'd communicated it a bit more carefully, but they don't think they made the wrong call.
@Caleb it would probably been significantly simpler without... well, the rest of this
and careful communication means they get more viewpoints before they make a statement
23 hours ago, by Caleb
@Aza I think us doing something in a way that was obviously going to cause a significant backlash surrounding both the action we took and the perceived lack of planning, management and communication violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. That we'll continue will be significant. The end ideal result is when people are able to take actions like the one you took, and connect them with our reaction, in a way where our reaction was the best conclusion. If that makes sense. — Tim Post ♦ Sep 30 at 17:45
That one's been shared and starred multiple times. Surprised he deleted it.
@PaulWhite honestly... its um...
slightly incoherent
1:38 PM
we discussed (maybe in the other meta room) what he meant exactly; he may have deemed it too confusing or controversial
@PaulWhite it comes across as being a LOT of chutzpah
@Mgetz I'll have to look that word up to understand it.
@AndrasDeak I liked Art's translation.
or just too honest...
I hate the phrase "too honest"
1:40 PM
@AndrasDeak you can be honest and phrase your words for maximum effect
@JourneymanGeek unless someone up the ladder says "we don't want to tell them that, do we?"
@AndrasDeak well
I love this part of the newest answer to -900:
> and don't be afraid of [making mistakes].. We all do, it's how we try to make up for it that matters.
Oct 2 at 11:39, by ArtOfCode
Simplified: "I think us doing something, in a way that was going to cause backlash, has violated people's expectations. We did it anyway, and that's significant. We're sticking by our actions, and that's also significant. When people take significant actions [like the one Aza took] we want them to be able to see that we've responded in the best way possible."
@JourneymanGeek Sure, it would have made a lot more sense for them to pick on me ;-) That way they could write their CoC changes off as a Good Thingβ„’ and be proud of getting rid of a few religious "bigots".
1:45 PM
@Caleb I wouldn't want them to pick on anyone
They picked the wrong martyr and went off half cocked when someone stuck their neck a little too much at the wrong time and place. The "how this went down" they probably sincerely wish had gone better. That they wanted it to happen at all ... I don't see any evidence to disbelieve.
"They" being a general hand wave at corporate, not picking on Sara in particular.
It's hard to imagine picking a worse target
@PaulWhite Oh there is worse, but the effect would been more localized. So from a broad impact perspective yeah.
Yes I'm sure they could have done worse, but they would have need to work very hard at it
@PaulWhite Not really, all they would had to do is pick someone from the lavender SE users crowd.
1:50 PM
@PaulWhite they can always shut down the metas to show they mean business
that would trump most history
@Mgetz That would make no sense in context though
@AndrasDeak again surprised this hasn't already happened months ago
@Mgetz only thanks to CMs
yesterday, by Paul White
@Snow tbh nothing much would surprise me at this point, including turning off meta, and disbanding chat
@PaulWhite it would have if you read some posts, I'm not going to speak for them but they think (in general) that this was handled wrong
@AndrasDeak I'm surprised they still have CMs
1:52 PM
Ironically, the definition of "bigot" is "One who is narrow-mindedly devoted to their own ideas and groups, and intolerant of (people of) differing ideas, races, genders, religions, politics, etc.", which neither of those accused fit
@Mgetz I have seen those. I mean firing a lavender mod for an anti-pronoun stance makes no sense
@Mgetz there's always need for management
@PaulWhite Firing a mod for having an slightly different trajectory of opinion even if concurrent seems to have been the case
@PaulWhite If the goal is to prove their commitment to a very specific cause, then they picked a great target actually. If you've struggled and struggled to be convincing that you are "all in" and you want to make a splash object lesson that nobody is above the letter of the law then they picked the perfect target. Somebody who was known, respected, popular, valuable, and didn't have an objection to the spirit of the law but clearly objected to a specific interpretation of the letter of it.
@Caleb and who is member of several marginalized groups though?
1:54 PM
I take your point though
I say "though" too much
@PaulWhite Other groups, clearly not the specific one they are trying to score points with.
@Caleb trying and failing
Anyway, I have little issue with what they're doing. They did it grossly incompetently.
1:56 PM
Unless massive drama was part of the plan.
@PaulWhite and that's an important thing
@PaulWhite getting rid of all problem users at once?
@Shadow A lot of folks who they might lose arn't though
@Shadow shrug maybe, hard to know
1:58 PM
Actually you'd find that folks who revel in conflict are encouraged
Goodness me yes
@JourneymanGeek I would argue a lot of high value users already left in previous iterations of this conflict.
High value to whom?
High value to whom though
@Mgetz Well, not this conflict precisely
1:58 PM
but yeah
So this is what hurts
@PaulWhite though though
They got so much right
@AndrasDeak yeah I failed hard there
@JourneymanGeek it's the same conflict, just with new paint IMHO
1:59 PM
too slow and too verbose
@JourneymanGeek anyone who disagree with their decisions is a problem.
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