Tavern on the Meta

2:00 PM

Old users aren't "Welcoming" and must be shed

@JohnDvorak I've been called that so many times this week I couldn't even count. My name being in the paper and on Slashdot/Reddit/Hacker news hasn't helped on that front. The definition as you state there is of intolerance, but the working definition as being hurled around in the street is measured by disagreement.

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz so.. take this with a pinch of salt - I'm from smaller communities

Mad Scientist

@PaulWhite I don't think drama was part of the plan, but it certainly looks like they intended to make a strong statement, and that might have been the motivation to make this far more public than it usually would have been.

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Journeyman Geek

@Caleb :/

but I felt the neglect of smaller communities (first) and SO (later) in favour of other projects was a cause

I don't have any issues saying this, probably the whole CM team knows I'm vocal about it ;)

Mgetz

20 hours ago, by Mgetz

@Magisch I have a friend that didn't understand what I said when I explained that I have to live with the fact that people I know and am friends with could literally be the people at a pogrom tomorrow where I die... it took them awhile to get that things aren't always simple.

Journeyman Geek

2:02 PM

@Mgetz I wouldn't put it that way

but from a purely monetary value - we're worth less than SO

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek I was explaining my situation in general, and indeed the situation of many minority groups. To society at large we are expendable

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz erm

Ok, I'm missing the frame of reference

Shadow

Since most "power users" these days use adblockers, they're worth nothing to SE.

3

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow yanno?

I can't really argue with you on that

Shadow

There'll always be new users who will answer questions.

Journeyman Geek

2:04 PM

I've always said you're too darned negative.

Maybe you just have perspective

Shadow

Lol

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek in this case the specific context is irrelevant to some extent, the sentiment is what matters.

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz I'd probably survive my site being closed down

user194636

@MadScientist Do you think the low level of communication was also deliberate? It does fit with making a strong, uncompromising statement.

Journeyman Geek

I'd be sad sure...

Shadow

2:05 PM

When you always expect the worst, the worst sometimes happen.

Mgetz

I am as, as usual, failing to communicate

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite I have the impression it just spiralled fast

@Mgetz if its over being an actual minority

Yeah, that's serious

Caleb

@JourneymanGeek Meh. I got more death threats when I first got appointed as pro-tem on C.SE ;-) Then I stuck my neck out to help Islam.SE and oh boy...

Mad Scientist

@PaulWhite No, I think it's just good sense in general to be careful about communicating when everyone is angry, odds are you'll make it worse when you're careless.

Journeyman Geek

@Caleb its still not a situation that anyone should be in - especially as a volunteer

user194636

2:07 PM

@MadScientist Well I'm certainly glad they avoided that 🙂

Mad Scientist

@PaulWhite They were very deliberate in doubling down and making things worse. That's slightly different ;-)

user194636

Acknowledged

user194636

Perhaps we'll all find out the truth when Tim or Sara write their memoirs.

user194636

Could this all be an elaborate book promo.

Caleb

@JourneymanGeek True. And to their (old persona's) credit SE did take some precautions for me/us early on. But they've kind of withdrawn them now. More than kind of actually; the mission is to make a different statement and whoever is making the calls now clearly didn't heed the experience of CM teams from years gone by.

Journeyman Geek

2:11 PM

@Caleb Its some of the same people

and this is what kinda confuses me :/

user194636

The CMs don't make policy

Journeyman Geek

They don't

and until recently the team was pretty much stripped down to the bone

user194636

Certainly. Very thinly stretched.

Journeyman Geek

I think Caesar was the first actual growth of the team in a while

Caleb

@JourneymanGeek Have you noticed how talkative the old timer CMs are right now? They used to wade right in whenever there was an issue. Even when they didn't know what to do and it wasn't their fault they'd dive in and start calming the waters and figure out which way to shore. The silence this time around is defening by comparison. I'm pretty sure they are all under gag orders — and have been since (or even before) this broke.

Journeyman Geek

2:14 PM

@Caleb erf

that's something I missed yeah

Also why I'm active on meta :/

user194636

That's part of what makes me think the slow and very limited communication is pre-planned

user194636

> The CoC is not up for debate

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite the original version was written on meta.

And was significantly stronger for it

So...

I don't know man

user194636

I agree with you, as you know.

Caleb

@JourneymanGeek They are here, any other unrelated topics that come up they've jumped in with answers, comments, flag handling, etc. But the main brouhaha has garnered almost complete radio silence from the CMs. That is so unlike them and their respective histories I can only assume it is coordinated.

I can't speak for what you're still seeing in the TL or elsewhere, but out here it's crickets man.

Journeyman Geek

2:26 PM

@Caleb I don't really know :/

@Caleb I can't say anything but eh, I don't sound particularly positive do I? ;p

Caleb

Hence why I've been trying to direct at least as much of the outrage as I can in the vague direction of "corporate" because I have to assume this playbook didn't rise up out of the boots on the ground.

There have been plenty of real tangible wrongs done, but I don't think anybody out here is in a position to lay them at anybody's feet right now. Not even Sara's, as easy as her posts being the only public response to this all have made it to pick on her.

Journeyman Geek

sigh

The really funny thing is I've been kinda focused on the theory of moderation when I was thinking on how to reply to a lot of it

well not SE it

vaguely meta-ish its

@Caleb there have

and the culture in SE as it used to be might have helped a lot in dulling the damage

Sklivvz

2:44 PM

@Caleb what can they say? the are 100% in the wrong, and they know it.

All of this thing, starting from the changes to the CoC onwards has been a complete mistake after the other

wrong, changes, wrong reaction to mods that pointed it out, wrong demodding, wrong reaction to the fallout, wrong apology, wrong reaction to the second fallout.

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user194636

@Sklivvz well they could say that 😀

Sklivvz

I think they would, but they would get in trouble

Caleb

> I don't think it is even remotely acceptable to publicly shame (or put to trial) the action of a unpaid volunteer because someone disagrees with them. (source)

user194636

@Sklivvz Oh sorry the context is CMs not SE, my error.

Caleb

Wow @Sklivvz ... that is where this all went sideways. Disagreement started to be treated as something other than disagreement.

Sklivvz

2:48 PM

yes, I think that's more or less where it started

it's that and the changes to the "be nice" policy

when they started moving from "don't hurt each other" to "here's exactly what you need to do otherwise you suck"

Caleb

@Sklivvz Also true. They are way too invested now to back down. The outrage that would poor out on them if they back down now would make -900 votes on meta and a few less diamonds look like a ruptured neighborhood water main causing a street geyser vs. Mount Saint Helens.

Sklivvz

Probably. I don't have a solution.

I think a sincere apology would be well received

I think reinstating Monica and having a fair review of what happened with the mods, and then deciding together would be well received

I think admitting the mistake with the CoC would help

etc.

Caleb

@Sklivvz Sure. By the people that think the CoC change is fundamentally a good thing and they just got off on the wrong foot, it would probably.

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