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Journeyman Geek

2:13 AM

@Stormblessed the whole point of this exercise is not seeing spam 😁

Stormblessed

2:36 AM

@JourneymanGeek I guess so lol

Journeyman Geek

5:10 AM

-3

Q: A student has to answer 8 out of 10 questions in an exam. How many choices does the student have if the first 3 questions must be answered?

Question:A student has to answer 8 out of 10 questions in an exam. How many choices does the student have if the first 3 questions must be answered? Can someone help me out with this question? My way of solving this question is to apply the pigeon hole rules so [7/3]=3 this is the only way I can...

discussion

Needs the needful

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

^^ needs one more (@Bart @rene @Glorfindel)

Journeyman Geek

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Bart

5:34 AM

Done

user194636

4

A: Does Stack Exchange insist on a special language for posts? Please describe

English is a living language; it changes slowly but constantly. Old words take new meanings, new words replace old, and sometimes old uses resurface in new contexts. Also, sometimes there are emoji. We gather together here from across the earth, bringing with us myriad notions of language and me...

Journeyman Geek

6:43 AM

Some day, I hope to write half as good as that.

Shog, not Smokey. ;p

rene

@fbueckert the saga is not over then. When will the sun shine on you? ;)

Bart

@JourneymanGeek awww, poor Smokey

Journeyman Geek

@Bart smokey and I have an infamous rivalry ;p

rene

7:01 AM

Is it fair to assume it will be a bit slower over the weekend compared to the last few days?

Journeyman Geek

I hope so

I'm not sure though

Bart

Don't jinx it!

Journeyman Geek

I'm not

I'd jinx it if I'd say its usually quiet on weekends ;p

Bart

Not you, the flowery one

rene

yeah, I'm just bored

Journeyman Geek

7:06 AM

Heh

go, I donno do

do whatever flowers for fun

hands @rene a wrench

Shadow

8:32 AM

@JourneymanGeek flowers love to just stare at the sun

Journeyman Geek

9:02 AM

→ 11 messages moved to Chimney

Andras Deak

9:20 AM

@rene unless we get an official update

Bart

Nah, not over the weekend. And I'd say communications are done.

Mad Scientist

The next update will likely be the CoC change

Bart

^

Journeyman Geek

Eh. I do hope folks manage to get some rest :/

Shadow

One good thing in this whole turmoil: much more MSE activity, much more votes on questions.

e.g. simple "How to delete my account" got 10 upvotes in a day, while usually it won't get even 2.

@MadScientist question is if it'll get even lower score than the "apology"?

Mad Scientist

9:31 AM

@Shadow I don't think the actual change to the CoC will be unreasonable. It'll still get hit in full force by the discontent about the way this has happened

Shadow

Well, on normal days I'd guess it will get like -200 or so. But now... -800 or less. (net score)

Bart

Between -100 or -800 the score gets pointless anyway

user271002

@Shadow Such things usually go to the blog, and there are no downvotes.

John Dvorak

@MadScientist I suspect that even if the actual change is reasonable, there will be some backlash simply because the community is (rightfully) upset about other events pertaining to it.

rene

9:46 AM

what happens beyond -800?

John Dvorak

@rene I give about 10% to revealing a minor CSS bug. 90%, nothing in particular.

Oded

It isn't entirely pointless. It shows the strength of feelings by the community about the topic. It is a bad proxy, of course, but a proxy non the less.

rene

Does it? Only 20 or 30 mods publicly took action, a few thousand users flocked on Meta. You could argue it is just a ripple, given SO's scale.

I'm not saying it is not significant to us. You might spin this in all kind of directions.

Oded

10:02 AM

I agree that the MSE community and the number of mods in total is a drop in the ocean. And as an employee we needed to remind ourselves of this fact every now and then. But - it is also the best avenue to getting direct feedback (which for oh so many companies is a problem).

Mods are also the face of the site as far as most users are concerned. They are the ones that directly interact with the coalface.

2

Mad Scientist

I think the effects will be much stronger on the smaller sites than on SO, and it's not as if the company cares much about those anyway

Oded

Sadly, I think you are right.

user623470

in The Comms Room on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 15 hours ago, by user619714

When the stats are in it's unlikely that there will be even the slightest blip on any chart that matters. People will have still asked (mostly crappy) questions on SO and will have gotten answers. Everything else is just noise. All of the hot air on MSE and in the Tavern on Meta is just that. SO just kept rolling along and to any statistically significant level noone noticed the drama on MS£.

Bart

@Oded to an extent. Most outside complaints about "mods" already seem to confuse regular users with elected moderators anyway. Outside our bubble I don't expect any of this to have much of an impact

rene

What is this outside you talk about?

Mad Scientist

10:18 AM

I wonder if it'll make it harder to recruit new mods, now that we know that SE is willing to throw us under the bus publicly. Though I suspect this will be mostly forgotten in a while.

Bart

@rene it's concerning that you as a flower are asking that.

Andras Deak

@Bart cave fern

Bart

@MadScientist Hold an election and I'm sure plenty of people will nominate themselves again.

John Dvorak

10:30 AM

@Bart tyranny of large numbers.

Which, by the way, is my new favorite neoportmanteau.

Bart

@JohnDvorak to an extent, sure.

John Dvorak

Do you know what's left when all the good mods leave? The bad ones.

Journeyman Geek

@Oded and current users are who the new users see

Bart

The large numbers will also guarantee some decent new ones @JohnDvorak.

Journeyman Geek

@MadScientist I think this might have a knock on effect on quite a few things ><

John Dvorak

10:32 AM

@Bart those won't stay long even if they dare apply

Bart

I doubt that

Journeyman Geek

@Bart or just get elected, and not do much

John Dvorak

In the worst case, we still have a juicy autopsy on our table :/

Journeyman Geek

And running a community goes a lot further than mechanics. If the community matters at all.

And critically if you want folks to get more than "I'm going to throw the first thing that comes out of my head" and "People throwing flippant comments", enough people actually need to care

Bart

Bold prediction time: This situation will eventually blow over. If a large part of the moderators don't reinstate themselves, new moderators will step up. Those moderators who leave will be (and are already) portrayed outside our bubble as bigots who threw a hissy fit over some pronouns. And developers Googling for answers couldn't give a toss anyway. Until the next kerfuffle ...

Journeyman Geek

10:36 AM

@Bart maybe

or the sites slowly start losing folks

and just turn into generic quora-alikes

Bart

@JourneymanGeek I don't see that happening. But time will tell.

Journeyman Geek

@Bart so...

for all my sins, I'm also a management major

Its been a while

We used to have a technique called SWOT for looking at a business.

I'm not the best person at it but...

Mad Scientist

If Teams and Enterprise turn out to be very profitable, the SE network might turn into just a glorified demo of the actual product

Journeyman Geek

It would

M.A.R.

So you have to work on your pension and your butt. I would say that is pretty well targetted ... ;) — rene 19 mins ago

Journeyman Geek

10:40 AM

But the network has been seen as a thing that drives traffic to other things for a while

Careers for example

Bart

I can't really speak for the smaller sites. There this might have a real effect. But for SO? Unless the Threat is coming from a real alternative, SO is simply too massive a resource.

Journeyman Geek

@Bart I'm part of a smaller site

So here's the tricky bit. Assuming a "hostile" SO managment...

and that the main goal is to drive stuff elsewhere, and the network is a "glorified" demo of an actual product

what's a good stratergy?

user194636

@MadScientist What do you mean "turn into" 😀

Journeyman Geek

Burning it all down, so to speak basically means we lose our spaces

Would be a PR disaster

John Dvorak

@JourneymanGeek Stop that. You're scaring me.

Journeyman Geek

10:44 AM

but everyone loses

@JohnDvorak why?

John Dvorak

Because it might actually be true.

Journeyman Geek

point

That's the worst case scenario though ;p

I don't think SE management is entirely hostile

So we're hopefully in slightly better shape

John Dvorak

Methinks the worst possible scenario would be if SE manages - wittingly or unwittingly - to rally the entire Internet into a crusade against conservative, ahem, world views.

Journeyman Geek

Well, honestly

That wouldn't be too bad in a few ways

John Dvorak

If the company really wanted to be hostile, they'd bring out far bigger guns than they had.

Journeyman Geek

10:46 AM

but I doubt SE has that push

John Dvorak

The more I look around, the more it seems to me that the best people's religions tend to be rather conservative.

Journeyman Geek

And broadly many of the goals folks have in general seem to align

I'm not the best people? ;p

John Dvorak

I didn't say that.

Journeyman Geek

So a big part of the problem is politely letting folks know "hey, so... we agree but, maybe the way it was said dosen't work"

user194636

For mine, the main disconnect is between the old model (curated Q & A) and the new model, which appears to be more about teaching beginners. Tim has said that the library of Q & A we were looking to build is very largely complete, and has been for some time. I'm talking about SO only of course, because SE cares less about other sites.

Journeyman Geek

10:49 AM

With old SE - it was smaller so it was easier to get through to someone who got it

@PaulWhite as an old fart...

John Dvorak

I often have trouble finding the best way to state conservative opinions.

Journeyman Geek

beginners were just as bad in the old days

Just less of them

I should know, I was one ;p

Bart

@JourneymanGeek Maybe I'm wrong, but in a weird way I think this can be positive for corporate SO. Value to them comes in an increased userbase. There is probably a KPI target to meet in there. So you identify what's stopping people from joining. You get the message that users won't join or leave out of a fear for abuse or actual abuse.

So you address that. You do so somewhat forcefully in a take it or leave it manner, but you're clear. Publicly (again outside the bubble) you can say - somewhat rightfully - "We're doing the good thing here. We're inclusive. If you don't like that, tough luck." If in the end that leads to growth in your userbase, you win.

Journeyman Geek

@Bart hmm

I'm trying to work out how to say this without letting out too much that's out already

John Dvorak

@PaulWhite If they said outright "we're done building a library, let's try the one-off help in big for a while", I'm sure there would be less discontent than trying to trick prolific curators into cooperating.

Journeyman Geek

10:51 AM

@Bart so.. there was an attempt to do a COC in 2014

I kinda missed it

the 2018 one basically pulled in the community

There were a few things that.. went horribly wrong that caused all these events

And honestly

user194636

@JohnDvorak "...one-off help in big for a while..." ?

John Dvorak

@Bart They're super-exclusive to the conservative folk though, and I do feel that on myself as well.

Bart

@JourneymanGeek no need to risk letting out too much for the sake of my ramblings. It's a bit of a cynical take perhaps, and I still assume most of the underpinning come from a positive place of good intentions.

Journeyman Geek

the massish mod quit is literally folks knowing no other way to get through in this situation

John Dvorak

@PaulWhite s/help/help thing/

user194636

10:53 AM

@JohnDvorak Thanks. I'm sure they will say that in due course, once they've worked out how they're going to do it.

Journeyman Geek

There's a lot of aspects of this that still haven't been addressed

John Dvorak

@JourneymanGeek which makes the meta folk quite upset

Journeyman Geek

Here's the really difficult part - now the changes they want to do are forever linked with these events

@JohnDvorak Oh, its more than that

user194636

@JohnDvorak One thing I hadn't fully realised about being "inclusive" before, is that it explicitly does not include everyone. The argument is that vast groups are already included, and therefore need no assistance from "inclusiveness".

Shadow

@JourneymanGeek "went wrong" implies that they had good intentions. Sorry but what they did can't possibly come from a place of good intentions.

Journeyman Geek

10:55 AM

@Shadow I was there

user194636

@Shadow One can have good intentions and still be utterly inept.

Journeyman Geek

and honestly, if I cannot assume good intentions

John Dvorak

@PaulWhite The thing is, if you hurt a large number of people by calling them bigots... and the smaller group you wanted to help ends up hurt as well... that means you've done something wrong.

Journeyman Geek

I can't in good concience sit here and do what I have been doing the past week.

user194636

@JohnDvorak I don't disagree.

Shadow

10:56 AM

@JourneymanGeek I sit here just for the sake of my friends. Not for SE.

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow not the company.

M.A.R.

Awww

Journeyman Geek

Sometimes you fight people

M.A.R.

Unless you didn't mean me

Journeyman Geek

sometimes you fight for people.

M.A.R.

10:57 AM

Sometimes you fight through people

Shadow

@M.A.R. sure I did 😘

:D

John Dvorak

There's been some cries to boycott the company, but... I don't think it will work.

Bart

Sometimes you make people fight each other and you bet on that ... no wait, you didn't see that. I said nothing! There is nothing illegal going on here!

user194636

My issue with all the people saying we should go back to normal is that SE have not yet done anything to deserve our trust and cooperation back.
Otherwise, it just sends the message they can literally do anything, with no consequences if they just wait it out.

Journeyman Geek

y'all remember this?

104

Q: Please Join Us in Welcoming Our New Meta Stack Exchange Moderators!

We're really excited to announce the appointment of three new community moderators to Meta Stack Exchange! I know this might come as a really big surprise to some, and I can't wait to talk about it, but let's not delay the introductions any more. Please welcome ChrisF, Tinkeringbell and Journeyma...

discussion meta moderators announcements

Bart

10:58 AM

Sure

M.A.R.

Nope, sorry

Haha kidding.

Shadow

@PaulWhite well what happened is like stabbing someone in the back. If that comes from good intentions, I'm really curious to know what those intentions were.

M.A.R.

Maybe.

Journeyman Geek

That's why I'm not a mod here any more

We were supposed to help stop this from getting out of hand :/

M.A.R.

Slacker.

Shadow

11:00 AM

"Sorry! There was a fly on your shoulder, the knife missed."

M.A.R.

Don't be too hard on yourself

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. shrug

I did what I could

Bart

And that's most definitely appreciated

Journeyman Geek

I'll keep doing it.

M.A.R.

@Shadow To my naive still juvenile mind, things like this are done when communication aims to be minimal

They probably didn't want to be in a position to justify themselves in the first place, for good or bad reasons.

user194636

11:01 AM

@Shadow I presume the intentions were to send a strong message about respecting people.

Journeyman Geek

When things calm down, and we have that talk I'm going to certainly bring it up

M.A.R.

Now, it's extremely awkward because they need to after every passing moment

Journeyman Geek

ah crap. I shouldn't have brought that up

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek I'm pretty ready here for some altruistic things to do. Lead the way doggie

Shadow

@PaulWhite by doing the total opposite? Nice. Like parents trying to teach their children not to be violent by constantly hitting them.

M.A.R.

11:02 AM

@JourneymanGeek Too late, I'm gonna, uh

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. naw, I'm no leader. Just someone trying to herd cats.

user194636

@Shadow As I understand it, there are two main points of general agreement:
1. The change to the CoC is a good one in principle.
2. SE made a monumental mess of communicating and implementing that change.

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow sometimes you can have the best intentions

M.A.R.

A dog herding cats. Hmm.

Journeyman Geek

do something for all the right reasons

then... well

Shadow

11:03 AM

@JourneymanGeek You mean sheep? 🐑

Journeyman Geek

cats.

maybe rabbits I donno.

Bart

crabbits. Dangerous cat rabbit hybrid.

M.A.R.

Ooh, Woundwort

Shadow

@Bart also with crabs 🦀

M.A.R.

I'm having spaghetti crisp for lunch

user194636

11:05 AM

I mean I had nothing but good intentions when I attempted to build some shelving for the spare room. My ineptness meant it was a complete disaster, which had to be rescued and redone by a skilled professional. Same same with SE and the CoC. They should get a pro in.

Shadow

@PaulWhite if that was the case they would have explained and apologized for the mess. They didn't.

Bart

Just hire me and my smiting stick. Everyone who doesn't behave gets it @PaulWhite.

user194636

@Shadow Please see point 2 🙂

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow So... one of the really hard parts here is getting the full picture, and getting in someone elses shoes

user194636

@Bart If it were up to me...!

Shadow

11:07 AM

@Bart Can I choose where to be hit? 😂

Journeyman Geek

and even when you're there for all of it, you don't get all of it

Bart

@Shadow you can select one place where not to be hit ... the rest is up to me

user194636

Is there a petition I can sign to get Bart in as CEO?

John Dvorak

@Shadow You can sorta argue that they tried to apologize. A certain post even does start with the word "apology".

user194636

I don't think I could advocate on that.

Shadow

11:09 AM

@JohnDvorak where?

user194636

Did SE attempt to ship that apology on a Friday?

John Dvorak

@Shadow First word of the title, IIRC

Shadow

Never saw it

John Dvorak

Ah, sorry. It was the last word of the title.

Shadow

If you mean the apology, it's in the end of the title.

Bart

11:14 AM

Glad we can all agree it's an apology ... furiously fanning flames ... :p

Shadow

pissing on the flames to distinguish them, forgetting the fuel I just drank would cause the opposite

:P

John Dvorak

@Shadow too much w(h)ine? :P

Shadow

@PaulWhite Mr. Stocker wins, sorry. ;)

user194636

Eeek.

user194636

Well George could be Head of Apologies I guess.

Shadow

11:18 AM

@JohnDvorak and lost my (Whis)key

@PaulWhite hired to write their speeches? Good enough for me.

user194636

Motion carried.

Bart

I'll let you guys debate whether or not I'll be your new CEO. I'm off to ride some virtual laps around Laguna Seca.

rene

Will you stick as CEO?

Shadow

More Smite than Stick

Andras Deak

smite the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks

Shadow

11:41 AM

The yuck parts

user194636

11:53 AM

Will there be carrots?

Shadow

12:04 PM

@PaulWhite in spaghetti?? That would be new.

user194636

@Shadow Ha! No. To go with the stick.

Journeyman Geek

12:17 PM

@Shadow sure

Ash would approve 😁

He loves both things

Shadow

@PaulWhite the only stick that comes to mind in those times, except @Bart's is the stick from gaming.SE ;)

Dang it's nugget not stick :(

user194636

1:21 PM

user194636

from meta.stackexchange.com/a/334463

Caleb

@MadScientist No, they won't have any problem getting new recruits. In some cases they won't be quite the same caliber because the people they really need most won't put up with that, but there are plenty of folks out there (and this is cynical but not directed at any individuals) who would/will grab at the chance to flex a little power themselves.

Lots of people will assume they can do better or that it will be better in the next go 'round — suppressing any warnings or reservations they may have ... given the prospect of a diamond.

@PaulWhite Ya, maybe not too sensitive there. I bet they are working hard, I just happen to be convinced the direction they're going is wrong.

There is more coming, apologizing here was our first step. We've been working hard. — Sara Chipps ♦ yesterday

user384163

Would anyone be willing to flag this comment workplace.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6362/…

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco the unfriendly flag feels... too mild

user384163

Also the one under it seems problematic too

user194636

1:30 PM

@Caleb I'm pretty sure they weren't trying to be sensitive.

rene

We need a class above unfriendly?

user384163

Not sure how to deal with that one. Shaming the mods for standing by their communities seems... Hostile.

Andras Deak

I don't see a shaming comment, is it deleted now?

user194636

Looks like it. I missed it too. Probably for the best.

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco sigh

this makes me mad

Caleb

1:33 PM

@PaulWhite Nope, sadly I think this was not actually quite as rushed a decision as they are making it sound like now, and that they did the math ahead of time figuring the backlash would eventually be worth the stance it earns them.

Shadow

@Caleb umm... There was no apologizing. So yeah more of this nothing is coming. Hooray.

Journeyman Geek

@Caleb the user has a bit of a history

Caleb

I'll cite Tim Posts's now deleted comment that I put in hear earlier as evidence of that.

user194636

@Caleb I'm certain of it. Still doesn't excuse the way it was handled or communicated.

user384163

Oh I guess it needs context. That user had another more derisive comment elsewhere.

user194636

1:35 PM

@Caleb Was it one-boxed here? Note sure I've seen it.

Caleb

@JourneymanGeek Sorry, which user?

@PaulWhite Yes.

@PaulWhite Nope. They probably do wish they'd communicated it a bit more carefully, but they don't think they made the wrong call.

Journeyman Geek

@Caleb it would probably been significantly simpler without... well, the rest of this

and careful communication means they get more viewpoints before they make a statement

user194636

23 hours ago, by Caleb

@Aza I think us doing something in a way that was obviously going to cause a significant backlash surrounding both the action we took and the perceived lack of planning, management and communication violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. That we'll continue will be significant. The end ideal result is when people are able to take actions like the one you took, and connect them with our reaction, in a way where our reaction was the best conclusion. If that makes sense. — Tim Post ♦ Sep 30 at 17:45

user194636

That one's been shared and starred multiple times. Surprised he deleted it.

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite honestly... its um...

slightly incoherent

(sorry!)

Andras Deak

1:38 PM

we discussed (maybe in the other meta room) what he meant exactly; he may have deemed it too confusing or controversial

Mgetz

@PaulWhite it comes across as being a LOT of chutzpah

user194636

@Mgetz I'll have to look that word up to understand it.

user194636

@AndrasDeak I liked Art's translation.

Andras Deak

or just too honest...

John Dvorak

I hate the phrase "too honest"

Journeyman Geek

1:40 PM

@AndrasDeak you can be honest and phrase your words for maximum effect

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek unless someone up the ladder says "we don't want to tell them that, do we?"

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak well

True

John Dvorak

I love this part of the newest answer to -900:

> and don't be afraid of [making mistakes].. We all do, it's how we try to make up for it that matters.

user194636

Oct 2 at 11:39, by ArtOfCode

Simplified: "I think us doing something, in a way that was going to cause backlash, has violated people's expectations. We did it anyway, and that's significant. We're sticking by our actions, and that's also significant. When people take significant actions [like the one Aza took] we want them to be able to see that we've responded in the best way possible."

Caleb

@JourneymanGeek Sure, it would have made a lot more sense for them to pick on me ;-) That way they could write their CoC changes off as a Good Thing™ and be proud of getting rid of a few religious "bigots".

Journeyman Geek

1:45 PM

@Caleb I wouldn't want them to pick on anyone

Caleb

They picked the wrong martyr and went off half cocked when someone stuck their neck a little too much at the wrong time and place. The "how this went down" they probably sincerely wish had gone better. That they wanted it to happen at all ... I don't see any evidence to disbelieve.

"They" being a general hand wave at corporate, not picking on Sara in particular.

user194636

It's hard to imagine picking a worse target

Mgetz

@PaulWhite Oh there is worse, but the effect would been more localized. So from a broad impact perspective yeah.

user194636

Yes I'm sure they could have done worse, but they would have need to work very hard at it

Mgetz

@PaulWhite Not really, all they would had to do is pick someone from the lavender SE users crowd.

Andras Deak

1:50 PM

@PaulWhite they can always shut down the metas to show they mean business

that would trump most history

user194636

@Mgetz That would make no sense in context though

Mgetz

@AndrasDeak again surprised this hasn't already happened months ago

Andras Deak

@Mgetz only thanks to CMs

user194636

yesterday, by Paul White

@Snow tbh nothing much would surprise me at this point, including turning off meta, and disbanding chat

Mgetz

@PaulWhite it would have if you read some posts, I'm not going to speak for them but they think (in general) that this was handled wrong

@AndrasDeak I'm surprised they still have CMs

John Dvorak

1:52 PM

Ironically, the definition of "bigot" is "One who is narrow-mindedly devoted to their own ideas and groups, and intolerant of (people of) differing ideas, races, genders, religions, politics, etc.", which neither of those accused fit

user194636

@Mgetz I have seen those. I mean firing a lavender mod for an anti-pronoun stance makes no sense

Andras Deak

@Mgetz there's always need for management

Mgetz

@PaulWhite Firing a mod for having an slightly different trajectory of opinion even if concurrent seems to have been the case

Caleb

@PaulWhite If the goal is to prove their commitment to a very specific cause, then they picked a great target actually. If you've struggled and struggled to be convincing that you are "all in" and you want to make a splash object lesson that nobody is above the letter of the law then they picked the perfect target. Somebody who was known, respected, popular, valuable, and didn't have an objection to the spirit of the law but clearly objected to a specific interpretation of the letter of it.

user194636

@Caleb and who is member of several marginalized groups though?

user194636

1:54 PM

I take your point though

user194636

I say "though" too much

Caleb

@PaulWhite Other groups, clearly not the specific one they are trying to score points with.

user194636

Quite

John Dvorak