Tavern on the Meta

user194636

2:00 PM

@Caleb For sure. I only mentioned it for general context.

Zoe the transgirl

@Gwideon welcome to meta, where the current valuation on drama is sky high

Gwideon

@Zoethetransgirl Oh yeah I know. It makes me really really sad

user194636

@Gwideon As well as can be expected, thank you for asking 😃

Journeyman Geek

@MarkAmery if we sort this out, in a manner that... well is satisfactory

Bart

@Zoethetransgirl let's how we're soon back to "Meta, where the points don't matter"

Journeyman Geek

2:01 PM

it puts us in a better situation to actually address the other things

Zoe the transgirl

@Bart if that ever happens :/

Gwideon

I hope this drama passes soon and it gets resolved in a manner that makes people happy

Journeyman Geek

@Zoethetransgirl I was debating putting my past few answers as CW actually

Bart

Sure it will @Zoethetransgirl. Keep the faith. Doom and gloom doesn't last forever.

Journeyman Geek

Imaginary internet points don't matter so much. :/

user351483

2:03 PM

@JourneymanGeek Do you realize how many repcaps and gold badges I've gotten out of this?!?

Journeyman Geek

@Snow and?

Zoe the transgirl

@Bart SE isn't responding nearly as much as they should, more and more users are leaving, multiple sites are left with only one mod and two sites have none. That's not hope, that's crashing and burning if it doesn't turn around very soon

Journeyman Geek

They don't matter if the community isn't healthy

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Says you. Have you seen my meta rep?!

user351483

@JourneymanGeek (a lot more than I feel comfortable with)

Caleb

2:04 PM

@MarkAmery Fair enough. And for the record I'm not categorically opposed to using them in all circumstances, but they do make me uncomfortable and there are situations I will refuse to do exactly what other parties might want me to. By that definition I do fall awry of the proposed CoC in "worse" ways than Monica and certainly a vast majority of mods who resigned.

6

Journeyman Geek

@Snow precisely

Draken

@Snow No worries, as the British would say, "Stiff upper lip", we'll get there in the end

user351483

@JourneymanGeek I would be far happier like I was before. Picking up the odd uptick, gaining downticks and generally getting criticized for daring to breath in Meta.

Journeyman Geek

Funny thing is - I've always talked about how meta was a way to influence the community

user194636

@Caleb I think one problematic aspect would be if SE required moderators to actively advocate for a particular, arguably political or social justice, agenda.

user351483

2:06 PM

@Draken I have this waiting for me, should I be reinstated.

Gwideon

in my opinion if SE reinstated monica alot of the anger would be lessened and we'd be in a better position to deal with the other problems

Mgetz

@Gwideon Nah I'm trying to work and failing miserably

Caleb

@OrangeDog Something like this yes, with the caveat that I don't think it's a hill to die on in all scenarios. I don't go checking out the history of every profile I see online to make sure the alleged gender is in alignment with my understanding of the universe.

Journeyman Geek

@Gwideon That would be ideal

user194636

@Gwideon Pretty sure that ship has sailed. And possibly sunk.

Mgetz

2:06 PM

@Gwideon american company, they can't and won't

Journeyman Geek

but there's a few burnt bridges I suspect

Caleb

@PaulWhite That's exactly what I believe they've done and are doing and have dug in their heals that they will go on doing.

user351483

A lot of people have died on a lot of hills over the past couple of weeks.

Gwideon

yeah I know but that's the ideal situation

user194636

@Caleb I have my fingers crossed that they are not going to say that in the CoC or elsewhere.

Journeyman Geek

2:07 PM

We don't really know yet

Draken

@Gwideon That's your idea of an ideal solution. Other people may have other ideas or are not sure what to do

Journeyman Geek

and tbh, this would be the worst time to do it

Gwideon

True

user194636

@Snow No one has died.

Caleb

@PaulWhite Don't hold your breath.

@Aza I think us doing something in a way that was obviously going to cause a significant backlash surrounding both the action we took and the perceived lack of planning, management and communication violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. That we'll continue will be significant. The end ideal result is when people are able to take actions like the one you took, and connect them with our reaction, in a way where our reaction was the best conclusion. If that makes sense. — Tim Post ♦ Sep 30 at 17:45

Journeyman Geek

2:09 PM

@PaulWhite lots of people have picked the hills they want to die on?

Mark Amery

@PaulWhite I think Caleb means to say that mandating preferred pronoun use (without any ways to dodge the problem) is, in itself, mandating that people advocate for an agenda. Not sure if you understood his meaning.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek I'm objecting to the overly-dramatic language.

user351483

@PaulWhite people got fired, people retired, people downed tools, askers and answerers and reviewers got abandoned by those who fell, reputations got burned, trust got burned. I'd say that's a lot of hills.

user194636

@MarkAmery I did thanks!

Mark Amery

Aha - so you're hoping the CoC is going to remove that requirement?

Interesting.

Gwideon

2:10 PM

Anyways I think i'm gonna get going so I don't set some one off

Draken

@Snow Just depends on how large the hill was, some chose a nice molehill whilst others went up Everest...

OrangeDog

@Snow I'm not sure that's not what "to die on a hill" means

Gwideon

bye

Nacht

Geez how do all you mods hold down a job while also being mods

Journeyman Geek

14

Q: What is the origin of the phrase "A Mountain I'm Willing to Die On"?

I hear the phrase "A Mountain I'm Willing to Die On" too many times at work and figured it meant "is this the battle I choose to fight today"? But this is used too many times on the interwebs to google down to the origins of it. Can someone point me to it?

user351483

2:11 PM

@Nacht Boss key.

Journeyman Geek

@Nacht usually moderation dosen't take much time

Nacht

ive barely been able to concentrate on work this week, trying to read all the angles, and im just a random

2

user194636

@Snow I know, I was one of them - and still am. I just think excessively strong language helps nothing. You are free to carry on talking about death on hills, of course, I just wanted to note my objection for your consideration.

Stevoisiak

On the old relicensing to 3.0: I love this one singular comment

Ehm, are you allowed to just relicense everyone's content? — Lightness Races in Orbit Aug 24 '15 at 10:46

Journeyman Geek

@Nacht this isn't a normal situation

Stevoisiak

2:12 PM

That was the entire conversation on the relicense

Journeyman Geek

To be honest - SE's often the place people go to get away from stress and politics and such

OrangeDog

Several years later

user194636

@MarkAmery I would be a lot happier applying a particular policy in my day-to-day moderation duties than I would be actively advocating for some more general agenda. I'm a janitor, not a thought leader. If someone flags something, I will handle it as best I can, guided by the CoC and the other usual things.

Stevoisiak

I'm only now realizing the user that made that one comment was the same user who raised concerns about the 4.0 relicensing

182

Q: Will concerns regarding the move to CC BY-SA 4.0 elicit any further dialogue from Stack Exchange, Inc.?

Fifteen days ago, it was suddenly announced that the user-contributed content on Stack Exchange had been relicensed as CC BY SA 4.0. The change took immediate and retroactive effect and is still in place. However, serious concerns were immediately raised about the legality and morality of this ...

support legal licensing creative-commons

user194636

@Nacht My wife is extremely rich

user194636

2:14 PM

(jokes)

Nacht

my cousin sent me a link to the main meta post, i said "monica cellio got fired???" and ever since i havent been able to do anything besides read all about it

Stevoisiak

3 years later, same user, different reaction

Nacht

lol

OrangeDog

@Stevoisiak there was a whole lot more than one user who raised concerns. Lightness was also not the first.

Stevoisiak

True

Journeyman Geek

2:15 PM

@OrangeDog then there's "Oh, I changed the licence version yesterday"

CLASSIC Jeff

user194636

At least he fronted

user351483

2:25 PM

@enderland Hola.

enderland

I knew I shouldn't have clicked that link on the meta post :D

:wave: :-)

user351483

There's a lot of links that I regret clicking. :D

Stevoisiak

What was the smoke detector?

TRiG is Timothy Richard Green

@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen I meant many meanings, not many reasons. That's a weird mistake. @MarkAmery.

Stevoisiak

Something adult?

Mgetz

2:28 PM

@Stevoisiak dunno, smokey finds a lot of spam

Draken

@Stevoisiak Nothing major, it's been deleted now. It was a user saying mistakes may happen and the internet needs to give up on working out the correct pro-noun. Looked like a trolling answer, but could be wrong

Stevoisiak

Oof

user194636

meta is a bit like tv tropes rn

2

Magisch

meta is a bit like

Mgetz

Meta has gone past plaid into meme

Magisch

2:31 PM

that scene from the simpsons where they pan across the place labeled "springfield tire fire"

Josh Darnell

@PaulWhite So true.

user194636

Hey Josh

Josh Darnell

👋

user194636

is that a special New Contributor wave just for me?

Josh Darnell

It is.

Considering how new you are.

enderland

2:32 PM

aww I didn't get one. I feel foreveralone

Josh Darnell

Or maybe it's because of how new I am.

enderland

which considering I forgot I clicked here until I heard the ping, I guess is fair :P

Josh Darnell

Either way, newness is involved.

user194636

@JoshDarnell How sweet does it taste saying that

Josh Darnell

It's pretty great, not gonna lie.

10

Q: Why is a moderator who has been around for 8 years a new contributor?

Today while I was reading a linked question on this answer, I found that Paul White, a moderator who joined more than 8 years ago and currently has around 55k reputation points and 900 posts, is showing up as a new contributor on this question. He's not showing up as a new contributor on his s...

support new-users

user194636

2:34 PM

heh

user194636

good times

Josh Darnell

I wanted to provide some evidence for my claim.

user194636

Oh I thought this was a strictly rumour- and speculation-based room

Josh Darnell

Oh!

user194636

Introducing facts will be an interesting new angle
Let's go with it and see how it turns out

Josh Darnell

2:36 PM

Sorry, I haven't been active here in a while.

I'm glad to bring my valuable thought leadership to the room.

user194636

Crikey

user194636

fastens seat belt

user194636

@JoshDarnell Not in NYC like everyone else this weekend?

user194636

(sorry)

Josh Darnell

> my feelings

@PaulWhite If I felt abused at SQL Saturday Atlanta, just imagine what would happen if I were around Erik, Joe, and Forrest all at once.

user194636

2:40 PM

Doesn't really bear thinking about

user1306322

@PaulWhite (if that was a joke about some current US politics events I'm completely out of the loop, being non-american)

user194636

I wonder how many will survive intact

Josh Darnell

I'd likely never recover.

user194636

@user1306322 No there's an event the regulars of another room are going to this weekend. Josh wasn't invited because no one likes him, which is sad.

user1306322

haha

user194636

2:41 PM

@JoshDarnell Can you imagine if Sean were there too.

Josh Darnell

😂😥😭🤣

Bart

Wait, wait, wait ... Pekka active on the site. Oded in chat, and now we have an @JoshDarnell?

user194636

It's the great browning

Bart

Am I having a stroke?

Josh Darnell

@Bart It's just like old times.

...right?

@PaulWhite Classic.

Machavity

2:44 PM

@Bart It's SE homecoming

Bart

@JoshDarnell old drama was better drama in my opinion.

user1306322

@Mgetz Elon would probably like the idea of the speed range after "plaid" to be called "meme"

Bart

@Machavity holy frickin Balpha.

Mgetz

@user1306322 not particularly into sharing ideas with him at the moment

Josh Darnell

@Bart Yes, I miss the days when the most frustrating thing on Meta was having to use all my votes downvoting Neal / Panama.

user1306322

2:46 PM

understandable

Mark Amery

@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen Yeah, I understood. Not that weird. I used the word "reasons" in the comment you were replying to; transposing a noun for a similar-sounding one that your brain has recently accessed is a commonish mistake; I make it sometimes and so do my coworkers.

user194636

Ah I see the non-apology has been unlocked

user351483

@PaulWhite "Statement of regret". That's how I think of it.

user194636

more accurate certainly

Mgetz

@Snow "We regret you were offended by our being offended on the behalf of someone else that was not actually offended" 🙄

well semi-offended

user194636

2:53 PM

/cyn

Mgetz

sigh can we go back to just assuming positive intent and not getting too worked up?

user194636

me? it was a joke

Mgetz

@PaulWhite no just in general. This whole thing and all the drama strikes me as something that could have been avoided if people just assumed positive intent.

user194636

oh yes indeed it could, and should

Mgetz

I could have sworn the CoC included that at one point. But apparently not. It probably should.

"We expect users to assume that others have positive intent in their actions first"

Machavity

3:03 PM

@Mgetz Are you sure it's not All suspects are guilty?

user351483

Second workplace moderator has requested reinstatement. He's just copying me though.

Mgetz

@Machavity right now it seems to be, but that doesn't make for a very good community

also I have a squeak in my desk and I cannot for the life of me figure where... to fix it

user194636

I read a really good (though long) chat discussion yesterday where several parties had highly opposing views yet managed to treat each other with courtesy and respect throughout. Many interesting points were raised and debated.

user194636

Just wanted that on the record.

Mgetz

@PaulWhite Yep it's possible, it just depends on all parties being willing

user194636

3:07 PM

it's not even that hard tbh

user194636

everyone gets more out of it as well

user194636

people eh

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Forgotten any chat suspensions recently?

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite uhhhh?

user194636

I'll take that as a yes then

user194636

3:10 PM

@JourneymanGeek The initials EC may be involved somehow

Journeyman Geek

Oh

We don't discuss suspensions D:

user194636

ha ha ha ha ha

user194636

Genuinely laughed at my monitor

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite the 'fun' part is knowing I'm going to have to deal with a few particularly toxic individuals on the network

But well

I'm not alone :)

user194636

once more unto the breach

Journeyman Geek

3:12 PM

@PaulWhite also I suspect a few people overstate my importance ;p

user194636

it is possible

user194636

it's funny but the metaphor that sprang to mind was "dog with a bone"

user1306322

@Mgetz probably on the connection of 2 sides if it's a rectangular wooden desk in which case might need to sand it down a bit; if it's just a wooden surface on metal then submerge the entire metal portion in WD-40

user351483

And wrap in duct tape.

Mgetz

@user1306322 it's the worlds most garbage flat pack metal and glass desk in existence. That I'll probably just replace with Ikea stuff because that's not garbage.

user194636

3:14 PM

@JourneymanGeek I'm not responding to pings there

Mgetz

literally the glass panels aren't cut straight and don't sit flat

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite oh damn

user194636

but I saw your message

Journeyman Geek

Ok, good enough

and I think you understand why its there

user1306322

@PaulWhite I was trying to figure out what "to dog" means if dog was used as a verb in this phrase

Journeyman Geek

3:15 PM

as long as its not dogging

user194636

@user1306322 do not look that up in urban dictionary!

Journeyman Geek

which means nothing like you assume it is

user194636

too late

Journeyman Geek

oops

user1306322

@PaulWhite I wouldn't dare lol

user194636

3:17 PM

I innocently asked about a phrase once and a "helpful" user directed me to UD

user194636

closed that tab fairly quickly

Journeyman Geek

D:

user1306322

pc enthusiasts recommend using an ikea desk surface board but instead of the legs use "Alex" drawers which add... drawers to it which many find more useful than just legs

user194636

the internet outside SE is a scary place

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 my dream desk is one of their butcher block countertops and A frames

user1306322

3:18 PM

oh yea that looks nice

user194636

my workstation is a couch, a coffee table, and a glass of pinot noir

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite ooh

I have an old dining table

user1306322

my dream desk is the one that just floats in the air so that I don't tangle wires and my legs on its supporting structure

Journeyman Geek

and a secret labs gaming chair I love to bits

user194636

sounds pretty sweet setup

Journeyman Geek

3:19 PM

Yup

Having a nice chair can't be underestimated ;)

user194636

takes notes

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 there's ways to mount stuff like that

user1306322

I can definitely recommend dat 399 chair but for like 130 on a knockoff site, they're all the same it's just extra for the brand name

Journeyman Geek

When I move out, I might do the countertop ;)

I got a fabric covered one (which seems to be mainly an SL thing) cause pleather is horrible in the tropics, and I would prefer to avoid leather.

user1306322

@JourneymanGeek yea but then I'm gonna see the linkchain bolted to the wall, I'd do it if I was into a medieval aesthetic but I wanna keep my periphery clean

Journeyman Geek

3:22 PM

seat goes back all the way like a car...

@user1306322 Well I was thinking L shaped supports and toggle bolts/wall anchors

user1306322

a buddy of mine just bought a used car seat and welded it onto a heavy duty office chair 5-star stand thing, and it even has 24 volt butt heating that works

user194636

keeping your periphery clean is always good advice

user1306322

no rgb tho

Journeyman Geek

eh

user1306322

@PaulWhite good dating advice too

Journeyman Geek

3:24 PM

RGB is easy ;)

user194636

@user1306322 for sure

Journeyman Geek

You can literally just order a roll of LED on a tape with everything you need online

user1306322

yea I had a problem with that about a year ago

I tested a bunch of RGB and RGB+W leds from 4 manufacturers available here and they all have a massively wide range of calibration deviation on the same strip

can't precisely pick a color, it's gonna look all muddy

so I just bought a bunch of incandescent lamps and a dimmer

the few times I bought an "ambilight"-like kit for monitors, same thing

then I just kinda realized I didn't miss it at all

pc tower is under the table now, so zero rgb life for me

in other news, how's the weather everywhere?

Stevoisiak

Windy here on Long Island

joran

3:39 PM

Cool crisp fall day in Montana

rene

rain, rain, rain

user194636

normal spring here. if you don't like the weather, wait 30 minutes

Catija

It's going to be in the 90s again today.

Josh Darnell

Same.

John Dvorak

13c here and heavy overcast

Kevin B

3:55 PM

hot, dry, dead. i saw rain in the distance yesterday, but it didn't come this way

Glorfindel

Oh, the irony ...

(y'all know which post that is ...)

John Dvorak

What's that?

Kevin B

...

Glorfindel

13

Q: 'Saviour' of Lost Souls

'Saviour' of Lost Souls Meta sites, but especially Meta Stack Exchange, see a lot of 'lost souls', users who have no idea that they're on Meta (e.g. because of a suboptimal email or a Stack Overflow question ban) and post a question which might or might not be on-topic on another Stack Exchang...

script questions meta

John Dvorak

thanks

Josh Darnell

4:04 PM

Oh Pollyanna.

StephanS

Is referring to something is like a hooker really inappropriate for the site? Aren't most of us adults?

Magisch

@StephanS Think of this like the water cooler at work

StephanS

well one of my comments was deleted (and I kinda understand why) but I wrote "Stack Exchange was the hooker we all fell in love with and it's time for us to understand that it never cared about us in the first place"

John Dvorak

I can see why that would be deleted

Kevin B

so... why would you repeat it?

rene

4:17 PM

that might not go down well with everyone

joran

I would expect that be removed

StephanS

I just don't see what rule it broke

John Dvorak

It... broke the spirit

rene

I would not link anyone or anything to the term hooker, ever

Josh Darnell

Regardless of whether or not the language is over the line, it doesn't really contribute anything, does it?

Kevin B

4:19 PM

what if it's just a badly named tool

OrangeDog

or a Rugby player

or indeed, a prostitute

StephanS

@JoshDarnell well it was a following comment to any other comment

M.A.R.

@StephanS Uh, yes?

John Dvorak

If it's talking about fishing equipment, it should be fine

rene

@OrangeDog meh ...

M.A.R.

4:20 PM

Most of us know about the alphabet words too but we don't use them left and right. In fact, doing so would be the opposite of adult.

John Dvorak

Wait, no, that's hook, not hooker

M.A.R.

The discoverer of cells?

I was discussing that the other day in ELU chat

Apparently, Newton and Hooke are both at fault for Hooke taking all the flak

StephanS

I thought hooker would fit because It's common knowledge that you shouldn't fall in love with a hooker because all they're after is your money

OrangeDog

@StephanS I don't think you even need a metaphor, just say "site"

joran

I think maybe if you have to rely on "what specific rule does this violate" to identify something potentially rude/offensive, you're going to end up accidentally saying a fair number of rude/offensive things

Stevoisiak

4:22 PM

@StephanS I'd argue that violates the "Be nice" policy

Remember, there are real people at Stack Exchange

OrangeDog

@StephanS even if the sentiment isn't rude, hooker is a rude word for prostitute

Kevin B

I'll just say, that topic is part of what resulted in the firestorm that ruined js chat

StephanS

@OrangeDog I wasn't aware of that

John Dvorak

@OrangeDog TIL

M.A.R.

O.o

John Dvorak

4:23 PM

@KevinB I hope they're okay now

StephanS

@Stevoisiak OK but if you get the metaphor it isn't mean it's just kinda sad

Stevoisiak

@StephanS It can be both

StephanS

care to explain

rene

yeah, I think we should move on, the wording of that comment isn't a good fit at a water cooler, no matter how well you think the metaphor fits. And the examples don't get any better.

Stevoisiak

^^^^

I kept trying to come up with a good way to say that without being snarky

StephanS

4:27 PM

@rene can we talk about it alittle more I think i'm learning something important here

rene

→ 2 messages moved to Trashcan

OrangeDog

filling a CoC with concrete examples of rude things is rather counter-productive

rene

@StephanS no

StephanS

@rene ok, I guess I'll just continue in the world with my misconceptions

rene

Sure.

Stevoisiak

4:30 PM

There may be a time and place to discuss that, but tensions might be a wee bit high as of late.

rene

even without tensions I doubt I want to have that discussion here, given how it developed.

M.A.R.

4:48 PM

@Stevoisiak Honestly, @rene you're a long-timerer, have you seen a bigger drama than this?

I haven't

There's that vaguely important SF thing from 2011 (?) but that was one site and it was over some high-reps being a bit rude to newer users or something like that.

Feeds

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