Tavern on the Meta

8:00 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit You're allowed to default to they, you're even allowed (though it is discouraged) to default he.

The only change is when someone explicitly asks you otherwise

I've given up trying to keep track of it all. There's just too much stuff to read, what to speak of the emotional wear & tear involved in trying to digest it. But I'm still reading random stuff that comes up on the Active tab, and on stuff that's linked in this room, so that I still have a feel for what's going on.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Magisch Okay, the rules have changed wildly since I last went into reading about the planned legislation. Thanks

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit if you know someone is a bloke or you've referred to them as a he for years and they've not corrected you, it's probably ok. The CoC really is to cover intent. If someone calls me a he and I say I'm a woman, please call me a she and they immediately call me a he, that's an issue. If they call me a he two years later no one can blame them for not remembering. If they do it once a month for two years, then they're probably doing it deliberately

Magisch

friendly bin to maintain the peace

Lightness Races in Orbit

@YvetteColomb Observe how long it took to get a patronising "eyeroll" simply by trying to do right by people. This does not work.

Villification is now the default state.

user310756

8:01 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I thought you were asking in earnest?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@YvetteColomb I was. That's my point.

Mgetz

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I just checked, unspecified

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Mgetz Thanks

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit unfortunately it is atm from all sides :/ I'm doing it too. Assuming bad faith

Lightness Races in Orbit

@YvetteColomb Yep :(

David A

8:02 PM

I can assume good faith. But can I assume the assumption of good faith? I'm not sure.

Lightness Races in Orbit

Quick recap for me, then: is disengaging still verboten too?

Magisch

I found that cuddling the office dog has lowered my stress level considerably

3

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit disengaging is fine

Magisch

@LightnessRacesinOrbit You are always allowed to disengage, although it is not allowed to make it obvious it is for discriminatory reasons

Lightness Races in Orbit

I keep trying to do Slack-like :dog: in response to comments like that but it doesn't work :(

user310756

8:03 PM

It's not ok to say - hey you're "in x group" so I'm not talking to you

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Magisch Okay. Well then it doesn't seem so bad?

Magisch

so silently walking away is perfectly fine, declaring you'll no longer talk to anyone with deviating pronouns is not

Emilie

@Magisch I suggest watching Bob Ross. With headphones.

Magisch

It's not

the misconceptions are everywhere

Mgetz

@LightnessRacesinOrbit 🐶🐶🐕🐩🐕‍🦺

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:03 PM

I see

Gwideon

why do I feel like a jerk for speaking my mind

user310756

A tip though - if you're ignoring people, don't tell them.

Lightness Races in Orbit

How do you tell them if you're ignoring them :D

user1306322

@Magisch accidentally a word?

Kevin B

i've been ignoring a mod for months

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:04 PM

I ignore many, many people

Mgetz

@Gwideon that is my constant state of existence :(

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol a couple of years ago I walked in the teachers lounge and announced I was there to ignore people lol but then, hey I'm not a people person

Magisch

I probably get ignored by many people and never notice

although I don't ignore any myself

Lightness Races in Orbit

I haven't told them about it, but they've likely worked it out and I doubt they're sad about it, so everybody wins 👍

@YvetteColomb yikes :P

user1306322

I've never had a reason to ignore anyone, usually if I do, they get kicked before that

user310756

8:05 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's so nice getting along with you. We were arch enemies from way back (exaggeration ofc) and then we actually agreed on something one day and were both shocked. Do you remember that?

Gwideon

can I have a hug

Lightness Races in Orbit

@YvetteColomb I do not

@YvetteColomb But I do believe you

user310756

@user1306322 I try to ignore my family hahaha jks

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I thought it was funny

user1306322

@Gwideon one anonymous internet hug coming up

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:05 PM

@YvetteColomb Probably funnier if you can remember it :)

Arthur Havlicek

@Gwideon here's one if you like hugs

HDE 226868

@Gwideon hug It'll get better.

202324

outta stars, good night

user310756

@Gwideon hug (we both get sued for sexual harassment! lol)

user1306322

@202324 starless night? that's not good!

Magisch

8:06 PM

night everyone

o/

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeh, remembering it really helps the humour

user310756

@Magisch \o

Emilie

@Gwideon hugs

Gwideon

thanks

I get these pings and they're just.... so horrid

user1306322

hmm...

user310756

8:07 PM

@Gwideon yeh it's not cool. If there's comments on the site, link them in here and we can flag them - link the post. With enough ordinary user flags we can nuke them

Stevoisiak

I look forward to the day I can open MSE and not feel like I need to catch up on days of backlogged discussion.

user310756

now that mods are thin on the ground

Lightness Races in Orbit

I honestly don't see much objectionable under your question, but perhaps insulting stuff is being flagged away really quickly?

user310756

which question is this?

Lightness Races in Orbit

If it's just that people are taking exception to your wording (due to the factor I explained earlier) then you're going to have to accept that: it was a possible result of posting. Don't forget other people's feelings. Them (politely) expressing that they feel bad due to your post, isn't "so horrid" tbh.

Gwideon

8:08 PM

yeah i know.

Lightness Races in Orbit

22

Q: How can we resolve the current drama without causing any more harm to vulnerable groups?

Context: I am a non-binary user who uses singular they as my chosen pronoun. I'm also a relatively new user who just started paying attention to meta right when the situation over the sudden firing of a moderator was becoming a thing. First, my thoughts on the Monica situation (1). From what I'v...

(I assume)

user310756

ah yes I found it thanks

David A

Giving people the freedom to disassociate and disengage (preferably without comment) is probably the best option at this point.

Gwideon

I've tried to explain my intent but no one's listening

Lightness Races in Orbit

Yes.

@Gwideon I do agree that you've made a real effort to clarify, and several people are just not listening to that. But that's when you just ... disengage. Leave them. It's not personal (unless nasty things were said in deleted msgs I can't see), it's just a stupid argument on the internet.

dfhwze

8:09 PM

@Gwideon well if you comment like this I am making that accusation against many members of the community ...

user206222

Apologies for that, @LightnessRacesinOrbit. I'm out of patience for this stuff, in large part because of how taxing it is to help. But you didn't deserve derision as a reply.

user1306322

feature-request discussion what do we think about allowing users who have recently been harassed, request that others look at messages pinging them so they can be flagged if necessary, as a voluntary filtering service by other users?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Aza Thanks, and I understand.

user310756

@Gwideon that's a lot of comments to deal with. I haven't read them all, but I've long advocated that comment pile on is stressful. Honestly they need to have an opt out on notifications under your own post

user310756

@DavidA agree

Gwideon

8:10 PM

yeah they do

it is really stressful

Kevin B

i mean... that's an important part of discussion oriented questions.

Arthur Havlicek

Meta issues and my mental disorder mix badly, I am very high on anxiety these days

Lightness Races in Orbit

@user1306322 I think that's interesting, if a little dangerous perhaps. We're already kind of mob justicey due to the strong feelings involved in these topics; I don't think being able to recruit an army of supporters to descend on opposing views is going to go well overall. And, really, at the end of the day, we can't be a therapy service.... :/

user310756

@Gwideon hugs for real. You're not alone. It's hard when you're in a minority and doing it tough

Kevin B

discussion

user310756

8:11 PM

@ArthurHavlicek agree

Lightness Races in Orbit

@YvetteColomb I'd love to see much more flexibility in notifications overall - starting with exactly that

user310756

@KevinB ofc , but it would be good to be able to disable the notifications on your own meta posts. When there's 100 comments it can be hard

Emilie

@YvetteColomb Is there a userscript for that?

Stevoisiak

@DavidA I think a lot of people have chosen to disengage. You can see that with the mod resignations. But that means the people left to engage have very strong beliefs

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit agree

user206222

8:12 PM

@Gwideon Make sure you don't forget to check in on yourself, too. This crap is taxing as hell, and I totally get how defending Who You Are against constant doubt, denial, dismissiveness, and at worst outright transphobia, wears you down. Don't forget to breathe, drink water, step away if you need it.

Lightness Races in Orbit

Perhaps when all this has blown over we can get some improved tooling

user310756

@Emilie I hadn't seen one for posts

Lightness Races in Orbit

Just don't request it on meta ;)

user310756

lol

Emilie

@Stevoisiak Or are just there to wreck the place possibly

user206222

8:13 PM

It's vastly easier for them to be there than it is for you, given how things are, right now.

user206222

Overexertion is real.

Kevin B

you can pretty easily adlbock the inbox button for a while

David A

I'd go so far as letting mods opt to let some other moderator handle people they feel they can't deal with, but that only works if you've got a lot of moderators.

Mgetz

@Gwideon I understand. Honestly my biggest concern with your question is more the answers than the question. Some of them come off very "Us vs. Them" which doesn't tend to be productive and causes unnecessary drama 😞

Gwideon

yeah

Stevoisiak

8:14 PM

@Emilie Maybe strong beliefs was the wrong term.

HDE 226868

@DavidA We typically do that informally - I'll just drop a message in my site's mod room asking for someone else on the team to try to work the situation if things aren't going well. Always helps to have another (unbiased?) set of eyes.

user310756

@KevinB can you do that for real?

Stevoisiak

The people who are strong enough to step away or disengage have.

Gwideon

I was trying to avoid that mentality but it's hard not to

Kevin B

yeah, just rightclick, block, and go through the little process

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:15 PM

@Stevoisiak and who want to (you're inadvertently calling those who choose to talk, weak)

Emilie

@Stevoisiak I think part of it is also pacing yourself. Knowing when enough is enough, going for a walk...

Kevin B

i've had reviews adlocked for years because i hate the red dot

Stevoisiak

@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah...

@Emilie That's a better way of phrasing it

Emilie

Doesn't always need to be a resignation but I can definitely understand why someone would resign

user310756

@Mgetz the problem is, if you're discussing a group that you are a part of, it's hard to not define an us and them. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but yes it can be polarising

SecretAgentMan

8:16 PM

Employing a selective engagement strategy can be good for one's sanity.

2

Lightness Races in Orbit

I've found also that (and I don't just mean SE or even just the internet) a bit of perspective helps. Like, at the end of the day, will I die? No. Then should I get invested in such and such a situation or debate? Nah. It's not always easy but you do kind of get used to it. It is what it is. The world is largely immovable. Trying to change people is largely impossible. So why work yourself up trying?

Mgetz

@Gwideon I know, but when we fall into that mentality it automatically puts both sides on the defensive. That ends in conflict, not resolution. It's worth remembering we can't and won't solve all the problems today. But any movement can be better than none.

Lightness Races in Orbit

Yeah, that

user310756

@KevinB huh. well fancy that! thank you!

user206222

The problem is, there is absolutely an "us" vs "them" in trans rights. It's us, versus the people who just want us gone, minimized, disbelieved, excluded, one way or another. There's also just an "other" category, that happens to be larger than either "us" or "them."

2

Emilie

8:18 PM

One of my former teachers gave a tip once, when someone is intimidating you or threatening you, picture them taking a crap ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

user206222

However. The people in the "other" category are more likely to feel vilified along with the "them" category. Which makes it... complicated.

user1306322

@YvetteColomb .js-inbox-button {display: none !important;}

ah you already found out how to use adblock for that

PM 2Ring

The thing I don't like about the CoC+FAQ is that it alienates too many people that would otherwise be trans allies. I want to encourage people to be respectful, but lots of people feel the CoC+FAQ is forcing them to be respectful. That sort of thing doesn't work. And the CoC+FAQ just goes a little bit too far for the average user to be comfortable with it.

9

Getting them to use singular "they" is possibly a winnable battle. Insisting they use neopronouns is asking for too much. Just see how many of the anti-CoC posts have been about neopronouns. In reality, the issue of neopronouns will hardly ever arise, but it's been blown all out of proportion, and has become a key target for people's objections.

2

Kevin B

Undoing the block is a little harder, would have to go into settings and edit the custom field

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Aza Accurate

Stevoisiak

8:20 PM

Massive credit to the community and moderation here in chat. It's consistently felt like a welcoming source of discussion the past several weeks.

2

Mgetz

@Aza not disputing that at all, but it's very easy to let that 'other' become part of the 'them' and then it gets nasty

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Stevoisiak I've been hanging out a little today and yesterday and I've been astounded because I was expecting a total mess. So yes that.

David A

@PM2Ring Yep. Zero-tolerance for intolerance prevents you from building any meaningful coalitions.

Gwideon

I've honestly felt better here than on meta itself

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Mgetz Like we just witnessed on that q

user310756

8:21 PM

@user1306322 thank you

user1306322

no prob

Shog9

FWIW: the FAQ is a bit of a battle-ground trash-heap right now, but... I wanna say, a lot of folks have provided constructive feedback there (and elsewhere on meta), and we're reading it & trying to find ways to improve on our first attempt here.

6

So... Y'know, thanks for that. I know it hasn't been easy.

David A

Perhaps more specifically, zero tolerance for perceived intolerance is almost always disastrous.

Emilie

@Aza I have a former student who is trans and shares quite a bit. They made me realize that there was discrimination among trans. It was eye-opening. Not like I wasn't already an ally but it raised my awareness that outside support is needed.

user1306322

@Shog9 thank you for continuing to work on that

user206222

8:22 PM

@Mgetz It's easy to feel that way but it's rarely intended. In reality, that separation layer is almost always there, people just ignore it or don't recognize it. As a blunt example, it's what caused a friend to reply defensively, "well, I wouldn't stab a trans person," when I told them about my friend, who's been stabbed repeatedly.

Stevoisiak

@PM2Ring I'd been having trouble putting into words my issue with the COC. I think you've hit it right on the nail

user310756

@Aza it's a little like abortion issues - but maybe not as popular. Where people think they have the right to dictate how others should live and impose that opinion and make it known. I'm a believer in live and let live.

user1306322

and for providing updates

PM 2Ring

@Aza I find it interesting that the people who object to trans on religious grounds have (mostly) been quite civil in all this. Sure, it hurts to read stuff that says "my religion says you are a bad person", but it's a lot better than directed personal malice, which we've seen plenty of.

user310756

@SomeoneWhoUsedToCare the site is a bit like the wild west atm. There's too much activity and not enough moderators. Then there's the issue of people being up in arms about being censored. I personally think the network should just delete stuff. After all, it's not here to host constant abuse against itself or horrible accusations people are making to other people. It's a difficult situation. But coming down hard will remove the opportunity for people to express hate on the site and they will be forced to go elsewhere. — Yvette Colomb 2 mins ago

user206222

8:23 PM

@PM2Ring People who object to transness for religious reasons don't need to be uncivil to be heard. They're heard by default. Their mode of communication is an accepted normal.

user206222

We don't have that option. "Assume good faith" is a bludgeon that's been used against minoritized people for hundreds of years.

user206222

As soon as we step "out of line" into requesting positive assertions that we're here, we live, we're real... we've done something wrong: we've created conflict.

user206222

That's Not Nice.

dfhwze

@Gwideon good edit

Gwideon

okay

user206222

8:25 PM

Religious folk don't need to do that to be heard. They don't step into "uncivil" territory because they don't need to -- not in public, at any rate. They are the default, against which we have to prove ourselves.

user310756

@Aza honestly. Having religious beliefs doesn't give you the right to shove your opinion down someone else's throat. You can have your faith. If you don't agree with how someone lives - keep that opinion to yourself or with your other religious friends. A public place like this is not the place to air religious objections. It's a secular site.

Mgetz

@Aza RE Feel that way: I know, the reason I called out was to make sure there was self awareness. It's so easy to fall into that trap without realizing it and not step back to breathe, think, and reset.

Lightness Races in Orbit

I don't think rehashing the debate here now is going to achieve anything.

Gwideon

@Aza yeah i've kinda felt that recently

user206222

@YvetteColomb I think this, too. But sadly...

Mgetz

8:26 PM

@Aza RE Trans rights: most people assume it's already part of the law, and it isn't; a major gap

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit yes, you're right! People need a break and to feel supported

Lightness Races in Orbit

If nothing else, it's probably mostly preaching to the choir

user206222

@Mgetz I don't think this is true, from the sheer number of people advocating against legal protections. Those people certainly know no legal protections exist.

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit agree

Mgetz

@Aza Aren't they part of the 'them' though? I'm speaking to the 'other'. While the 'other' makes assumptions the 'them' will run wild

user206222

8:28 PM

@Mgetz This is highly regional. Most people near me know there aren't systematic legal protections, shrug, and say "wish there were something I could do."

Gwideon

yeah. it's not fair. why can't we get legal protections that others have

i should probably shut up

user206222

Most "other" in other places just, don't care, in my experience. "That's nice, they can fight for that on their own."

Arthur Havlicek

can someone elaborate what kind of protection you speak about, its not clear for me

user206222

Starring that message is rude as heck, y'all. Good lord.

user310756

@Gwideon every human being has the right to same basic rights of all human beings (in my book)

Mgetz

8:29 PM

@Aza I'm one of the ones that is puzzled as to why trans rights are even in question. To me the 14th amendment is clear, and the CRA is unconstitutional for not actually being broad enough. But that's my uninformed opinion backed up by a supreme court ruling.

user206222

@Mgetz We're citizens. That's not what "rights" are in this context.

Emilie

Whoever starred this, I hope it was a case of fat fingers

mop star away

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Aza Why is it rude? I thought stars were to show support for a message.

Gwideon

what message

Lightness Races in Orbit

Oh, must be a star I didn't see if it's gone cos the one I thought you were referring to is still there

Emilie

8:31 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yea I cleared it

Lightness Races in Orbit

ok

Mgetz

I'm now very confused

user310756

@Shog9 hey I think it's been harder on you and your colleagues, take care xo

user310756

and that's the last time I'm being openly nice to Shoggles like that. dam

Emilie

Carry on ^^

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:32 PM

lol

Conspiracy theory: Shog orchestrated all of this to get you to be nice to him ;)

user206222

Fired for being trans, kicked out of housing for being trans, denied medical care (including emergency care) for being trans, police don't investigate our murders... these aren't technically constitutional rights. Only some states in the US have these protections, and what few protections exist on a federal level are liable to go away in June 2020.

4

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeh, attention seeking so and so :p

M.A.R.

@user58 Jokes on you. Fire only hurts novels.

user310756

@Aza yep there's a lot of inequity. And trans people are very vulnerable.

Lightness Races in Orbit

This doesn't help you, but a lot of those things would be illegal in my country (many countries?) just by default. The US is very lax when it comes to consumer/citizen protection in the first place (firing particularly comes to mind) which is possibly why there's such a big thing about needed additional protections for certain groups currently victimised by the practical realities

Arthur Havlicek

8:34 PM

@Aza Ok, I see, I can't guarantee but I'm almost certain the list is more exhaustive here in France

Stevoisiak

Gay marriage wasn't even legal in all US states until 2015. I think it's safe to say we aren't close to equal rights yet

Lightness Races in Orbit

Like you literally couldn't fire a person for being trans here. You couldn't fire anyone for anything other than causing genuine harm in the course of their duties.

And I think that's much healthier. A society that is fair to people, no matter the rest of it.

user206222

@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's nice, but trans people also can't easily expatriate.

user206222

I'm glad your country's better, though.

Lightness Races in Orbit

Like I said, it doesn't help you

Mgetz

8:35 PM

> ; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

now if only they would enforce the law as it was written

Lightness Races in Orbit

What I am saying, though, is that if you ever perceive that not everybody is quite grokking the gravity of things, please consider that not everybody is in a place where said gravity is necessarily so high

Might help misunderstandings in future shrug

user310756

People get funny around issues to do with sexuality and trans gender issues challenge the root of a lot of people's deep seated .. I'm thinking of how to express it - we are taught that sex is a dirty type of thing and sexual urges are a natural thing - sex is quite healthy - it's like eating - but people are shamed and they're shamed for having desires. So anything that reflects sexuality can be confronting and I think a lot of people see trans gender issues as being related to sexuality.

user310756

Now I think it's a lot more than that, but that's my observation

user206222

@Mgetz This is... not understood in the way you think it would be, by courts.

Lightness Races in Orbit

Not sure I worded that right, but ah well

user310756

8:36 PM

*I don't think trans gender issues are just about sex btw for the record

Mgetz

@Aza it has and it hasn't

But until the supreme court rules plainly I'm not going to bank on it

PM 2Ring

@Aza Good point. Although it does vary by region. Some places are fairly secular these days, where religious people are seen as out of touch with the modern world and a bit old-fashioned at best. But yes, they still get the default veneer of respectability, as long as they don't foster extremism.

Gwideon

there's a reason i um hide my identity offline

user310756

@Ash omg how are you?

user310756

I've missed you since being off FB

user168476

8:38 PM

@YvetteColomb I'm okay. Tired, but so it goes.

user310756

@Ash yes, I can imagine.

user310756

how's married life?

user206222

@PM2Ring People often don't recognize religious extremism as such, which is another layer to the problem. This is getting too specific to culture, though.

user310756

oh and how's your cat?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ash grats

Stevoisiak

8:38 PM

This is only tangentially related to the current discussion, but I think we could use something uplifting.

Dove Self-Esteem Project x Steven Universe: Social Media

►

user206222

And I'd really like to start another break, so... [exits]

Mgetz

later, feel better

user168476

@YvetteColomb both are pretty great

PM 2Ring

I'm in Australia, where trans rights are pretty good, not quite on the same level as gay rights, but I get the impression that they're a lot better than what they are in many US states.

user310756

@Gwideon you're not alone. There's a lot of people trying hard to make this a safe place. It's a but of a ruin right now, but that's because there's some knocking down of walls and now it's a matter of clearing out the rubble. xx

Gwideon

8:40 PM

yeah

user310756

@PM2Ring yeh, we've come a long way. When I was young trans rights were not so good

user310756

@Ash nice :)

user310756

are you on discord Ash?

David A

There is literally a Supreme Court case pending about this sort of thing.

user168476

@YvetteColomb yep, I am

user310756

8:42 PM

@Ash i'll have to add you... let me find my thingy

Journeyman Geek

Uhm

Gwideon

sorry for causing more drama

Journeyman Geek

eyeballs-plz meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335738/…

user310756

@Gwideon you didn't cause anything. You need to be supported. It's clear

2

Zoe the transgirl

I went straight for R/A, because I have exactly 0 patience atm

Stevoisiak

8:44 PM

I imagine the rude and abusive flag has seen a lot of use in the past month.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek now I understand your uhm lol

user310756

@Zoethetransgirl yeh that will kill it

Lightness Races in Orbit

@PM2Ring It would be hard to be worse than many US states, at least in the "Western" world

US is like 50 years behind

Zoe the transgirl

Yep. And for users with more than one reputation, it'll hurt, and it's an efficient way to get rid of the trolls in the short term, 'til the moderation backlog manages to catch up

user168476

@YvetteColomb ping me when you find it and I will add you!

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:45 PM

it's not their fault; the country's huge and immovable

Stevoisiak

Has it been established that pronouns should not be stated in a question? I remember there being some debate

Gwideon

wow this is rather sad

Mgetz

@Gwideon don't worry about it, you're fine? have a llama 🦙

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I shudder at some of the things I see in the US - mind you we have our own back water issues here too and it makes me ill

user310756

@Ash Yvette - yo#3953

Journeyman Geek

8:46 PM

I kinda wonder if the CMs need to bring back the 2 rep to post we had a bit

Mgetz

also holy crap there is a llama emoji

Lightness Races in Orbit

@YvetteColomb remind me, vague location?

Zoe the transgirl

Mine's better

Journeyman Geek

@Stevoisiak I don't remember. Its a bit of a mess

user310756

@LightnessRacesinOrbit australia

user168476

8:47 PM

@YvetteColomb sent request! :)

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JourneymanGeek not a terrible idea anyway tbh

user310756

we treat our indigenous people atrociously

Lightness Races in Orbit

@YvetteColomb kk

user310756

@Ash ty x

Zoe the transgirl

:llama:

Stevoisiak

8:47 PM

@Zoethetransgirl Not what I was expecting

Journeyman Geek

I'll post a request after walkies

Mgetz

@Zoethetransgirl 🦙🦙🦙🦙🦙 also exactly what I was expecting

PM 2Ring

@Aza I agree with you. The religious objectors don't need to be overtly malicious to have anti-trans influence. And we can't fight them directly without it reflecting badly on us.

Zoe the transgirl

:sloth:

Journeyman Geek

Since my dog has decided I can run on 6 hours of sleep a day

Gwideon

8:51 PM

the troll question has been deleted

Zoe the transgirl

@LightnessRacesinOrbit red flags are the spam and R/A flags. They appear with a red background in the flagging history, hence the name

Stevoisiak

:goose:

Kevin B

🚽

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Zoethetransgirl ok. have never looked at flagging history so didn't know. thought you were talking about comment flags suddenly or something :P

Zoe the transgirl

oh, no ^^"

@Stevoisiak :DJBlob:

Stevoisiak

8:54 PM

@Zoethetransgirl I love this

Lightness Races in Orbit

GTG ciaoooo

Zoe the transgirl

Cya \o

@Stevoisiak Same - it's awesome

Stevoisiak

@Zoethetransgirl Mind if I use it in my own server?

Gwideon

bye

Zoe the transgirl

@Stevoisiak It's not mine, it's from a different server. It's probably fine though

Gwideon

8:56 PM

I've found out that I have trouble disengaging

Zoe the transgirl

I've had problems disengaging for 16 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes and 3 seconds

Journeyman Geek

@Gwideon it's very simple

Close the window, go for a walk

Kevin B

don't forget to forget your phone

Gwideon

it seems simple but emotionally it's not

Zoe the transgirl

"I'll take a break" I said. "It'll be good" I said. Literally 9 minutes later, which site do you think I'm browsing? xd

Journeyman Geek

8:58 PM

No, forget your phone 😁

PM 2Ring

@YvetteColomb That's definitely a big factor. In the past, many trans women who transitioned after having kids have been prevented from having any contact with their kids by court orders, on the grounds that they would have a negative moral influence on the children. The subtext being that they're deviants & potentially paedophiles. :( That happened to Lynn Conway.

Oct 11 at 13:49, by PM 2Ring

Fun fact: for decades, electronic devices have been based on complex integrated circuits, aka chips, technically known as VLSI, Very Large Scale Integration. One of the authors of the definitive VLSI engineering textbooks is Professor Lynn Conway. Around the year 2000, she came out as trans. So we have a trans woman to thank for the wonders of modern technology. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_%26_Conway_revolution and http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html

Journeyman Geek

@Zoethetransgirl at some point I'm going to just take a week and go radio silent 😆

Zoe the transgirl

I'm gonna push it for 15 more days

Then I'm gonna find a way to block the network so I can't access it 'til I can visit without getting caught up in meta

Journeyman Geek

Would be nice to have a safe non stressful thing in my life now though

I'm running on not enough sleep and multiple sources of drama 🙄

Zoe the transgirl

Me too

Stevoisiak

9:06 PM

I've been playing Half-Life as stress relief.

I've also been playing it when I'm not stressed.

What I'm saying is, I like playing Half-Life.

:P

Arthur Havlicek

I've yet to find anything for stress relief that actually works

to me, anxious episodes are litteral days of agony

Mysticial

9:24 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit My message notifications got reset when they did some inbox change. And since I do check my inbox, it stays at zero. So I only see the red icon when I haven't checked my SE inbox. But the green rep icon is still counting.

David A

9:54 PM

@Stevoisiak ahh... back when Valve made games instead of just printing money with Steam.

Stevoisiak

Just came across the community FAQ proposal. It's really well written

Gwideon

I would like to report a user

Zach Lipton

can a mod or CM please step in here meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335713/…

Gwideon

That’s um what I was gonna report

At this point I would rather the question just be closed

Zach Lipton

I was just going to say, what I meant by that is can a mod or CM please help @Gwideon

Gwideon

10:04 PM

Yeah

Zach Lipton

because a 120+ comment thread that boils down to "I shouldn't have to follow the CoC because [insert all the objections made elsewhere]" is actively harmful at this point

Andras Deak

people should realize sooner when not to feed these

Gwideon

I’m sorry

Andras Deak

I don't mean you :)

well, you too, but it's not a complaint. Just an expression of unhappiness with the state of things

SecretAgentMan

@Gwideon no need to be sorry. I'm not sure yelling is the right word, but it is clear those comments are beyond a productive discussion and have turned personal

Andras Deak

10:14 PM

I just think it's pointless trying to argue with such people, they will never listen. We don't have to convince them. It suffices to moderate them when they do something that needs moderation.

SecretAgentMan

The comment thread veered away from productive, respectful discussion long ago.

This is getting out of hand.

Gwideon

Yes please

David A

@SecretAgentMan "Now you're just being absurd. Learn how to argue properly." is a bit rude, but saying that there isn't a "right side" is probably not.

SecretAgentMan

@DavidA I think I'm agreeing with you. Did I make a mistake somewhere?

David A

@SecretAgentMan Nope.

Gwideon

10:29 PM

Just please close the question

SecretAgentMan

Given the comment history, I thought the Respect yourself was a bit much. But maybe I read it wrong. I try hard to assume good faith

@Gwideon I strongly recommend a strategy of short-term disengagement for all involved (you too if this is stressing you)

David A

I'm surprised that they didn't form a "Trust & Safety" group like all the other places.

SecretAgentMan

A short break from the larger discussion won't hurt anyone and it won't hurt the effort to improve (no matter one's perspective).

in fact, I'm taking my own advice

Gwideon

I don’t need it. I’m literally having an anxiety attack right now. I’m sorry

David A

@Gwideon What do you think is the source of the anxiety? It's usually some cognitive distortion like thinking you're on some slippery slope or that things are worse than they are.

Mysticial

10:34 PM

@SecretAgentMan That thread is impressive. It started out kinda okay. But towards the end, it's basically a shouting match between two opposite extremes that will never reconcile. I've seen plenty of these lately, but this one takes it to a new level. Trying to take any sort of a middle ground will automatically offend both sides.

Gwideon

Sorry mystical

@Mysticial i’m Sorry for making the post i’m Sorry for everything

user102937

-8

Q: Can someone explain to me the new CoC grievance handling process?

I have some questions about the new CoC so I can get a better understanding of how safe community interaction has become, before I begin participating more fully. Before we begin, by preferred pronouns are thon/thonself (I am gender non-binary, which means I am neither biologically male nor fema...

discussion code-of-conduct

Mysticial

@Gwideon no worries. A bit of meta drama is a great way to end a long day of work.

user102937

^^ --- Can we get this thing shut down, or flagged into oblivion?

Zach Lipton

I'm really sorry @Gwideon. You didn't do anything wrong, and I hope you can take care of yourself right now

Gwideon

10:37 PM

It’s hard not to blame myself

user102937

@Gwideon: Don't worry about it. Meta is a strange place.

HDE 226868

@Gwideon Not your fault! You're not responsible for every argument people start on a question or answer or discussion you post. If that was the case, I think I'd be responsible for . . . well . . . several major wars by now.

David A

meta.stackexchange.com/users/631917/pronounenforcer user basically stole this pic: redbubble.com/people/meletoninking/works/…

Gwideon

I didn’t want to cause this. I expected the controversy but um I didn’t want a war

David A

Probably deserves a profile reset just for that.

Some of these are patently troll accounts that should be flat-out banned.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

10:41 PM

@DavidA Something tells me that that account is a sock puppet

David A

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Either a sockpuppet or someone participating in brigading who doesn't otherwise use SE.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@DavidA Flagged for investigation

1

A: Under what circumstances will Stack Overflow, Inc. share private/sensitive information with the press?

We didn't have a policy here; we do now: "no comment." This is the first time that we've been asked to comment on a quote concerning a moderator, and reporters aren't always very forthcoming. So we've codified "no comment" as a policy and will operate using it going forward. Moderators are free...

Gwideon

I don’t know what to do

user102937

About what?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@DavidA The user who posted that is destroyed now

Feeds

10:49 PM

"So what's dark energy?" "Cosmologists and the FDA are both trying very hard to find out."

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/16717536/shaikh-aman

Shadow

@Gwideon oh hey. Don't be. You're good. Please, believe me. Cheers!

PM 2Ring

@Gwideon You don't have to do anything. The mods are dealing with it: the comment threads on your question have been drastically pruned. If you really want the whole thing nuked, we can request that with custom flags.

Gwideon

Okay

Bryan Krause

@Gwideon Thank you for sharing your views. Other peoples' hurtful words are never your fault

PM 2Ring

10:59 PM

Does that mean you're ok with your question now? Or do you want the whole thing nuked? We could flag individual answers, but the problem with that is the answer author may retaliate elsewhere, on the grounds that they were selectively censored.

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