sighs and headdesks at being silenced

I enjoyed how that got repeated with emphasis after the first time, @Magisch. I assume that in due course you'll be advising calmness in bold and all caps. ;)

we're all walking a tightrope between allowing discussion and keeping the heat down enough so nobody will freeze our room or feel like they can't be here without nonstop drama

@Mgetz if you and @jcolebrand want to continue this debate a better way would be to create a seperate room for it

I'm not sure how that turned into drama, I'm sorry I'll just shut up

@Magisch it wasn't intended to be a debate or cause drama

Good, then we have no problem :)

sorry

@MarkAmery I think it is a bit much to label them "right wing" per se, but I'm definitely in agreement that it is highly ironic.

"This is totally a problem [sees no problem], [creates problem] see?! It's a huge issue!"

I don't understand the "direction-wing" thing in political terminology

In the original version, liberals sat on the left and conservatives sat on the right side of the parliament house

with a gap big enough that you couldn't poke the opposing party with a sword without having to stand up first

speaking about prices, here are the allegedly real stats: stackexchange.com/performance

In fairness, @Rubiksmoose, besides creating a problem they also demonstrate one that is not of their creation: that the fear the company has successfully instilled is enough that most people are unwilling to make even obviously good edits removing those pronouns.

@JohnDvorak oh I thought it was something to do with the eagles

(And I do wonder a little if I'm going to walk straight into a suspension by editing them out.)

I guess it ties into @GeorgeStocker point on Twitter about the need for shared vision. The only tools the company is currently are punishment, suspension, and fear. You can disincentivise behaviours like that, but - with people on the internet who are free to walk away - you can't incentivise any. And so you end up with people just not wanting to come anywhere near this shit; leaving troll pronouns alone and saying they'll just avoid talking to trans people to not get into trouble.

The problem here is that SE has no power to create incentives. Besides gamification and idealism nothing drives someone to spend their time here

so they have to be industrious with the little deeper engagement they get

@Magisch idealism is a fine incentive, though

Not when the source of that idealism decides to walk over you, I guess :p

which the company has strayed from greatly and obviously

I object to "we"

I meant collectively, with the community as a powerless member of this agreement

But to harness it, you need to say "We want you to do [X] for these [reasons], which relate to ideals you share with us". You can't say "We want you to do [X], because otherwise, we'll punish you. If you ask why, you're a bigot, and maybe we'll punish you too."

A big part of this here tragedy is that their end goal in all this was really worth pursuing but they went about it in the worst way possible

after seeing the recent tweets I can't believe they don't understand this. They must be playing dumb and ignoring this knowledge on purpose, I can't believe they're actually incompetent enough to not know how these things work

I suppose those who left felt the same way

@Magisch The end goal being what, in your mind?

we don't see their reactions as humans face-to-face, but they did and their choice to leave speaks volumes

@MarkAmery little more tolerance for trans people and some awareness to work towards normalizing and destigmatizing respecting them

I wager the vast majority of people would have no issue with the new CoC if the SE of 2 years ago stood behind it. Most would just let it shuffle out and find out it's not a big deal, and then it'd become normal in due time

Part of how actual societal progress happens

It's just almost nobody trusts SE as far as they can throw it right now and their actions preceding the change made no progress towards alleviating that fear in fact they increased it significantly

@Magisch I would have issue with it, for the same reasons I gave at meta.stackexchange.com/a/335005/200582. Nor do I believe that the goal you've outlined was sincerely held by whichever individual staff drove the CoC change through; I don't think that people who were sincerely seeking to help trans people would implement a change whose entire effect is to compel religious pronoun-objectors to ghost them; you don't help a group by making them into untouchables.

If I learnt anything at all in my time in the professional world is that almost nothing is eaten as hot as it is cooked. I don't think many people would have that kind of concern if the circumstances were different. Also, I'm not that pessimistic about their motivations, or rather, I find no use in being so.

You are almost certainly right that it would be less angrily received. I maintain it would still be the wrong move, however.

disagree amicably over that then

Fair enough. What good do you think the new CoC would do, if delivered in better circumstances?

In all the discussion I've read, I am yet to see anyone actually try to make the case for how it benefits any subset of trans people in any way at all

in its current form I don't think it would be good either way

As I said bringing some sensibility and normalization to using personal pronouns

the crux of this is that a large part of the stereotype is just a stereotype

and by having people you respect live a different one or different opinion so too does your view shifts

its a big part by how actual societal progress propagates

it's like we all agree with its spirit and intent, but not the phrasing, which is why there was supposed to be an editorial period which was skipped due to mismanagement

Think back about all the stereotypes you used to hold that were shattered by a counterexample, or someone who cared or someone who actually took the time to explain and wasn't mean about it

now this editorial period is infinite and public

I bet everyone has a couple

I'm not sure I see the link between any of that and the CoC, @Magisch?

Have you seen how main usually reacts when someone raises the issue of being misgendered?

(I haven't seen reactions on main yet)

Not very pleasant to look like. Less pleasant still to experience, I'd hazard. You can claim that it's unimportant to programming Q/A all day long, and in a sense you're right, but the crux is that it's a small detail, and that small detail is preventing some very talented people from contributing as much

these are the parts of the welcomingness problem that can be trivially fixed without sacrificing any quality or moderation

@Magisch I've seen a couple of instances of misgendering being pointed out. There was no drama. You've seen drama over it?

And in a sense, seeing people on SO (people you respect, they just gave you an answer you wanted!) living the example of tactfully recognizing pronouns is likely to put a serious dent in the stereotype many people hold about them

yea no

@MarkAmery Oh yeah, I've seen some of how it got ugly

the stereotype of them being a polarising topic that many feel shouldn't even be an issue in the world but cannot say that for fear of being immediately villified and ejected from a community?

@Magisch I'm still not sure what that has to do with the CoC change

important question imo meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335730/…

like as if they'd murdered somebody?

@MarkAmery as I said, completly bungled, but with proper community participation and without all this ... baggage, it could have done some real good. I think

....

(what is this murder talk today lol)

@LightnessRacesinOrbit hyperbole everywhere. You'll get that on any topic in a sufficiently large sample size

the only reason it's so visible is that everyone's riding the "anti-se" wave

@Magisch aha, perhaps we're talking at cross purposes - you're not defending the CoC change as written and FAQed, but you're defending a hypothetical alternative CoC change aimed it improving welcomingness to trans people with the community's input?

Or do I misunderstand again?

I just want to be able to communicate, I have enough struggles with that as is. Adding in subtle nuance rules on top of that basically silences me and those like me. I am not good at subtly and nuance. I do not mean offence and yet it is taken.

I'm defending the best possible intent and the spirit behind the change

@MarkAmery I would be careful with I have not seen anything so it can't be a problem, at least that is how that message reads to me.

I don't know what to do

@Gwideon talk to a friend?

I feel really bad

@Mgetz Ironically that is victimisation and discrimination of a form, but not of a kind that is currently in vogue to militantly protestation

@MarkAmery flip that for a second. If we assume nobody gets punished for honest mistakes, and this is usually rare and drama free when you see it, nothing should change to now, no? The change is only for the unpleasant instances

What do you feel bad about, @Gwideon?

@Gwideon watch a cartoon or a nice comedy manga to get your mind off of these things perhaps?

@rene Meh - he asked me whether I'd seen it, and I answered. Not attempting to claim that the way I've seen it go down is the only way it ever goes down.

> If I am not for myself who will be for me? If I am for myself alone who am I? - The Rambam

i'm tired of being treated like the enemy.

hands @Gwideon a beer

@Mgetz The subtle nuance bit is just because they messed up the communication on it monumentally and enjoy no trust to not jump on people right now

I don't drink any alcohol, fyi

a fault entirely of their own making, but saddening nonetheless

hands beer back as I'm not 21

I don't believe anybody here did that?

lol

@Gwideon ditto 🍺

hands @user1306322 a club soda

I get we're in a tavern but yea

hands @Gwideon a raspberry soda

thanks

!!/tea

@Magisch brews a cup of earl grey tea for @Magisch

mmm tastes like clubs

I'll take a raspberry mojito if one's going

@Magisch Sure. But that the change will have no impact in some particular situation isn't an argument for or against the change. It's the situations where something changes that matter.

makes a horrible mess trying to muddle raspberries

And as far as I can tell the complete set of actual effective changes in the rules is:

evening shog

I feel like if I agree with this one change then I agree with everything else that SE does and is therefore just as bad as SE

how's your day going?

1. Can't edit pronouns out of posts

@Shog9 oh no those are electronics, you're not supposed to drink them...

Thats another failed implementation detail

tbh

@Gwideon you can totally agree with what we're trying to do in this one instance without, like, endorsing everything we do

I'm doing it right now

@Magisch The daily struggle of just communicating is hard enough, to deal with misconceptions on who and what I am beyond that is just exhausting. To then be potentially villanized because I can't defend myself even though they think they are protecting me is depressing.

yeah but I don't think others think that

2. Those with religious or stylistic objections are required to totally disengage from interacting with people whose pronouns they don't want to use, instead of just using their names

to be fair, it's hard to make people realise that sometimes

I think the things they've done in the past 2 weeks are abhorrent but I like the spirit behind the coc change

you can't control what other people think

I've had to frame pretty much all of my views as hypotheticals because people can't separate topics when they read something

yeah i know

You don't mind such-and-such an arbitrarily-chosen policy under discussion? Wow, you must hate Monica. For example.

I'd advise against reading MSE right now

you can not keep up and the awful stuff sticks around longer then usual

I read because, quite frankly, some of it is morbidly entertaining.

@Shog9 I know for a fact that you and the CMs are always trying your hardest. That you're coming at it with positive intent always.

well, let's not get too crazy

In a sort of "all you can do is laugh, and that's fine as long as nobody can hear you do it" way

I kinda want to buy you a beer shog

must have been a shite week through no fault of your own

I'll never say no to a beer

@Shog9 speaking of, you saw boulder beer is no longer distributing 😢

welp I just got accused of gaslighting

"No, I switched to electric arc - much safer"

@Gwideon that's always a good sign to disengage

@Mgetz I did not. That kinda sucks

I did address earlier why people might take offence to the way you worded the question, but you didn't change it. Accusing you of gaslighting is not nice or pleasant, but I do think you should consider narrowing the scope of your words in that post, because apparently someone has read it that way, and has been offended by it.

brawl link please

i'm tired of this

me too

@202324 Here's Gwideon's question. meta.stackexchange.com/q/335713/334566 You kinda need to read everything to get the full context.

does MSE have a cats channel? if it doesn't it should... along with a puppies channel

At the end of the day, it's an argument on the internet. We all know how those go.

Go for a walk, talk to people in real. Have a beer club soda. Frakking forget Meta.SE. :)

It's um hard

oh dear, you already shattered CoC on the first line

but i'll try

Nope, just turn off the monitor and off you go! You'll thank me

@Mgetz probably somewhere in chat.stackexchange.com/…

Also gorram it far too many different Markdown-like syntaxes in my life right now. Can never get strikethrough right on the first five goes

@202324 how

Hehehe

wait I misread

@202324 that's how!

@Aza you should see @Mysticial's notifications, I don't think they've checked in years

I think Mys accidentally clicked it a couple years ago and it reset

Or... they now? FFS. I used to call Mysticial he. Now you've said they I literally have no idea how to write that message

who

:(

@LightnessRacesinOrbit last screen shot I saw... yes

@Mgetz lol amaze

twas a nice read, not gonna downvote it :)

@Aza If that's their chosen pronoun, yes. If not, no.

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I just used they as a default, didn't mean to assume

thanks

@LightnessRacesinOrbit haha! I have avoided that conflict by using the user's short name!

Don't eye roll me, I'm trying, and you're mocking. That's not okay.