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@ShadowWizardStrikesBack OUCH. Please don't. If anything else because that far bigger problem is still going after more than a year.

Mast

3:17 PM

Someone could flag that, but I'm on strike shrug

could someone sign charcoal bot

no

we are not artificially inflating our numbers

everything we do has to be above board, ethical, and on the moral high ground

charcoal is a bigger part and contributes more than any one person, as it is the main thing that fights spam with metasmoke

Charcoal is mentioned in the strike letter. We are not signing the letter with the SmokeDetector account.

Shadow Wizard Strikes Back

ok fine

3:31 PM

@SPArcheon well, I consider SE the company to be villain. And effective way to fight them is getting support via social media. Show what the villain doing wrong, convince people, and you might just win. (This is not related to the strike or what the mods want. I'm not a mod, and can't see any way out when CEO directly attack all mods.)

heh some people who signed aren't really on a strike.

Mast

@Starship-OnStrike Most people contributing to Charcoal have already signed the letter. Some are actively participating in resolving the situation.

3:50 PM

> A small number of moderators (11%) across the Stack Overflow network have stopped engaging in several activities, including moderating content.

Oh hey that's right out of the "0.0015% of the userbase" rulebook!

2

@ShadowWizardStrikesBack what to you mean?

@M.A.R. You know those pathetic mobile games ads "only 0,000001% of the players can solve this"? Apparently those are the reference material Stack uses too.

We're over 15% now

I totally expect them to add other pearls like "500 IQ move", "10 things experts don't want you to know" and "IT Advisory companies HATE this trick" to their repertory by the end of the year

curious

@Mithical That's a 1000 times more than 0,015% :P (oh wait, that's not how it works is it?)

oh I missed a zero

Can we still get some coffee in here or is that down too?

3:59 PM

@Mithical I wonder how many of the total flags around the network were raised and handled by this minority before the strike.

considering it's most of the SO mod team.... a lot

@M.A.R. 50%

how many mods does SO have left

@Mithical so I'm saying this response is outright disengenuous and sadly right on-brand at this point.

So, how's life

Been a while since we last chat. Chatted. Chut.

what's a life

@Mithical A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk… Have at you!

4:03 PM

@Mithical You know the thing you do with the whole thing and the thing after that

Terribly inefficient for all the energy and fuel it consumes I agree

I'm now something like 85% a PharmD.

4:22 PM

@M.A.R. my work always advocates to be mindful that the last 20 percent may not be worth the time/effort/money. So think carefully about those last 15 percent ;)

are we flagging posts like this:meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389829/…

no

@Starship-OnStrike not flagging, usually closing, currently it depends if you are joining the strike too even if not a mod.

im in the strike. also closing i think is moderation. also voting is moderation. is/should that be banned @SPArcheon

@Starship-OnStrike I meant that in normal circumstances you would just vote to close that post as off-topic, but currently it is your decision if you want to work for the site or not.

Personally, I currently ignore any form of spam or bad post unless it is really offensive or straight illegal.

Peter Kolosov

4:38 PM

Do some SO mods not strike?

@PeterKolosov One of them has stated they're not interested in striking. Others are temporarily inactive for one reason or another, but a good many of them are on strike.

Laurel

@PeterKolosov The majority of active ones signed onto the strike, and next to no flags were handled by their mods today.

@Tinkeringbell What's the purpose of status-review on the MSE post about the strike?

Laurel

The striking portion of SO mods handles the vast majority of their flags

@PeterKolosov no one is obliged to strike, some dont

could an SO mod say how much the flag backlog has increased?

Q: Are you ready to revolutionize the luxury interior design industry with AI?

4:46 PM

-2

Do you have the guts to create the impossible? Dear developers and AI enthusiasts, It's time to leave your comfort zone! We, at All-In-Line, are looking for developers who are not just skilled, but also dreamers, creators, and disruptors. We are offering a unique opportunity that is not for the f...

lol this post has 6 upvotes

and 8 downvotes

while being obviously SPAM

i am upvoting spam as part of the strike, mab other do the same @RocketNikita

Please don't.

We're not trying to be actively destructive.

being actively destructive would be making the spam @Mithical

3 close votes for not being about the software that powers SE.

Upvoting it (and thus giving spammers more privileges) is also being actively destructive. We are abstaining from action.

7

4:51 PM

i wouldnt upvote if not for all the downvotes @Mithical

Upvoting spam is a misuse of the upvote privilege. The strike is just about ceasing moderation and curation duties. The goal is not to make the site worse, it's to raise awareness and solicit response from the company.

5

in my mind teh goal is to show that if your users want the site to be worse it will be @Spevacus

You are technically not striking if you're upvoting stuff.

Making the step from "We're not moderating" to "We're actively going to make the platform worse" is moving from collective action to collective vandalism.

collective vandalism is if a made spam @Spevacus

4:54 PM

It is also if you support spam, which you do by upvoting it.

i disagree

ok

@Mithical I wouldn't go that far to actually do that but to play the devil advocate when the highway toll booth employees went on a strike last year, I was the one waiting on a CLOSED booth under the sun last year... Apparently some think that the only way for a strike to work is to make users angry so that THEY will revolt against the company.

You're giving the spammer tools to further spam. The strike is only about taking away the tools and work spent at preventing spam in the first place; not giving tools to spammers to succeed.

i disagree

4:59 PM

You do not help our case by providing spam, or facilitating spamming, yourself. SE does not realize how valuable we are at preventing spam; they will only realize that if they see how much spam flows in naturally, without being handled by us, not if you boost it.

im not making the spam

@Andreasdetestscensorship problem is that I see too many users (and mods) willing to step in to fill the gap

@Starship-OnStrike You're not making it, but you're supporting it. Nice!

i completly agree with SPArcheon, I upvote to counteract the downvotes

What developers with ADHD want you to know

... and in turn end up... supporting to spam. Again, nice!

Feeds

5:04 PM

Eira May on June 05, 2023

For this followup post, we spoke with two Stack Overflow software engineers with ADHD about their experiences being diagnosed as adults, taking medication, and communicating about their ADHD at work.

If you would like to sign the open strike letter but do not have a Stack Overflow account, please reach out to @mousetail.

4

no, i neutralize the downvotes @Spevacus

@Mithical I'll edit that into the MSE post.

@Starship-OnStrike that is not quite it. I am just saying that I can see where the sentiment comes about and would love for some more mods to join (especially some that I have noted tend to be pretty "apathetic" about these kind of issues), yet I would not go upvote spam.

That said, I would be honest and say that given the chance I would probably point out to spammers that if they have to spam, this is the best moment.

Spammers see aware of this strike:reddit.com/user/MoneyRule9355/comments/141lfrs/…

5:31 PM

Who is moneyrule?

searchin' ...

That's posted to a user's own page, not exactly a wide audience

reddit.com/r/programming/comments/141lh49/…

he posted to r/programming too

Pretty sure that's just Starship posting

:)

It is. I've reported it on Reddit as spam :)

5:35 PM

Please do not purposefully sabotage

3

I don't have a reddit account, but I would report it too

I did not make that Reddit post. why do you say that i did when you have 0 proof.

cuz we can

Note that the Coc has assume good faith. this is the opposite

@Starship-OnStrike Because you were the only person posting such a link. In here. Immediately after saying you were going to support spammers spamming the site. It had close to 0 views, and when we pointed out just now that it's not beneficial, you self-deleted those posts, and are now calling us out as not assuming good faith...

5:48 PM

Um...reality check. I never said I would support spammers, just that I would counteract downvotes. It has 70 views. Also, the post is not deleted. In addition, i am not the only one posting a liink. As to calling out on the coc, thats bc you arent

@Starship-OnStrike Upvotes are +10 while downvotes are just -2. Counteracting is a net plus

@Starship-OnStrike The r/programming one leads to this, and the one on the user profile leads to this, so they are deleted, not sure why you're trying to assert otherwise.

@Andreasdetestscensorship Well that one needs a staff response, no? ;)

@Starship-OnStrike This is actively harmful to the perception of everyone striking. We cannot be taking actions to make things worse. Striking does not involve actions that are deliberately harmfull, it is ceasing to take other actions.

@mousetail all these posts are negatively scored

5:57 PM

If a post has +1/-1 OP gets 8 reputation points

And remember, not every mod here strikes. There will be moderation if there is concrete evidence of active sabotage

2

potentially giving them priveldiges to do more harm

@Mithical i belivee that upvoting that posts is part of it, as clearly do others

@ Spevacus ever consider that r/progrmming languages deleted it as spam/off-topic

@Starship-OnStrike And I am asking you to refrain, as someone who is coordinating large portions of the strike.

From the FAQ on the open letter

5:58 PM

@Mithical i and others disagree

very well

Valdalism greatly erodes our position

@Starship-OnStrike Last warning. If I see one more message advocating sabotage, you're going on a mod-enforced strike (a suspension). You DO NOT willfully upvote spam

fine

Thank you.

6:00 PM

I'll also cut the chatter re: the reddit stuff

Thanks too

but if you insist on that @Tinkeringbell then tell the other upvoting users too

stack's imgur stopped working for me

@Tinkeringbell Love your work, Tink. :)

anyone?

6:02 PM

not me

@Starship-OnStrike If I see them admitting to it, I will. Don't worry.

If it becomes a big problem I will get a CM involved to see those things I can't see and act accordingly

@PM2Ring ;) thanks! It's nice to be appreciated :D

@RocketNikita What stopped working? When did it start misbehaving?

ok, just otherwise its not fair @Tinkeringbell

Life is never fair.

I always try to make it as fair as possible though

good motto

how many mods does SO even ahve

6:08 PM

We want SE Inc to understand that it needs us good guys to prevent bad guys wrecking the sites and destroying the quality of the content we create and curate. If we do vandalism, then we become the bad guys, and undermine our own integrity.

@Starship-OnStrike 27.

@Tinkeringbell Not like that. It's not a feature request, or a bug request, or a support quesiton. It's quite big, and spans multiple posts, and the entire network.

that arent striking/inactive @Mithical

17 out of 27 are officially on strike.

and how many inactive

minus striking

6:10 PM

IIRC, 3 SO mods are currently inactive. So that leaves 7 active mods.

@Andreasdetestscensorship which makes it a good single point for a status review tag ;)

7/27. SO probably has a ton of spam. I have a feeling that suddently SE will reach out to us about it

Vogel612's Shadow

@PM2Ring nominally active. It's likely to be even less

Still quite ironically correct me if I am wrong the site actually never made any official rule about what how you are allowed to vote, and therefore the only rule we have is to not purposely harm the site.
Which means that technically you can vote at random by flipping a coin in most cases, as evidenced by the inability to do anything against for example people downvoting every WB related post out of spite.

there is suspending for voting irregularities

6:19 PM

@Tinkeringbell Did you had any indication from the staff that they are indeed reviewing that issue? So far it looks like they are ignoring every related post on meta...

Meta Andrew T.

@SPArcheon well, depends on the pattern, and if it's seen as "disruptive enough", then it may be handled by CM

@SPArcheon Do I need one to just do my job of slapping tags on things?

@Tinkeringbell If that is your job, go ahead. But from the outside it would look like they are reviewing something and personally I would avoid that if they actually aren't

Shrug. That's never been what the tag was to be used for once we got told we could add it.

@Starship-OnStrike yep, but most voting irregularities are about trying to gain advantages with voting rings and similar things. Past efforts about requiring users to not "vote out of spite" have meet utter opposition based on the a) impossibility to proof anything (reasonable in MOST cases) and b) user claiming that they are entitled to vote as they wish and if they want to downvote based on users avatars they can do so.

6:26 PM

im suspended on space exploration stack for random voting @SPArcheon

that's reasonable

point being that SPArcheon is wrong

ooh another stupid response:meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389834/…

@SPArcheon the point of the status-review tag is that it escalates a post to the SE staff for review. So it's perfectly appropriate for Tink to apply it. meta.stackexchange.com/q/348642

@PM2Ring would anyone take offense if I changed the description from this

> Indicates that the circumstances behind a bug report are set to be internally reviewed, or that the feature request contains merit to consider but the decision on its approval or decline requires more investigation.

to this?

> Indicates that the circumstances behind a bug report were escalated to be internally reviewed, or that the feature request contains merit to consider but the decision on its approval or decline requires more investigation.

@Starship-OnStrike i mean, one example isn't proof that "most" is incorrect

6:32 PM

imo much more clear. First one I read as the process already took place

There should be a line about posts that are only fully 'answerable' by staff too, I think.

And perhaps even a link to that post.

@SPArcheon I think the current version is OK. They indeed "are set to be" internally reviewed thanks to escalation by a moderator.

6:48 PM

@Tinkeringbell I don't agree, but as long as it does not harm, I will refrain from acting on it.

Well, as much as I would love to see how low till the new post score get, I have to go now.

Later

@Andreasdetestscensorship now I'm curious, what would you've done if it was somehow harmful?

To me, the new policy virtually says "Mods can still suspend a user for posting GenAI content, but they can't use automatic tools or their own judgement to determine that the post was created using GenAI". So that means they can only act if the user admits that the post was created using GenAI, or if the post text contains blatant indicators like "Regenerate response". That's frankly ridiculous.

They might as well say "You can suspend ChatGPT posters, but don't do it during the day, or during the night".

Catch-22

Catch-22 is a satirical war novel by American author Joseph Heller. He began writing it in 1953; the novel was first published in 1961. Often cited as one of the most significant novels of the twentieth century, it uses a distinctive non-chronological third-person omniscient narration, describing events from the points of view of different characters. The separate storylines are out of sequence so the timeline develops along with the plot. The novel is set during World War II, from 1942 to 1944. It mainly follows the life of antihero Captain John Yossarian, a U.S. Army Air Forces B-25 bombardier...

@Tinkeringbell Use the limited moderation tools that I have, and if not, bring it to the attention of the other people behind the strike. I'm one of the writers of that MSE post, so I have my channels, even though my opinions and stance are an outlier amongst the inner group of people behind the strike organization. :)

6:55 PM

> There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions.

You can ask to be grounded if you are mad but if you ask to be grounded you aren't mad

@Andreasdetestscensorship Well go ask. If you report back that most of the inner group wants it removed, I will ;)

Speaking of the press, it'd be nice if someone reached out to them asking that an op-ed be published regarding the moderators' perspective on the policy

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog "DevClass spoke to Norway-based moderator Zoe who is among the signatories". devclass.com/2023/06/05/…

7:10 PM

@PM2Ring I'm talking about a direct op-ed, written by a mod (and edited by the paper's editors).

@Tinkeringbell No, I already mentioned it there. None of us seem to take any issue with it. It was noted that it adds it to SE's internal bug-tracking system, which can be both bad and good.

Nord The Star Wizard

I see you changed your profile picture :o will need some getting used to on my end @SPArcheon

I'm too used to the older one to be honest

@Andreasdetestscensorship Okay!

@Tinkeringbell Do you mind if I ask about your opinion on the AI policy, and the way that SE has treated the community?

@Andreasdetestscensorship I don't. But I don't really have a clear elevator pitch lying around either.

The AI policy sucks, but like I said already, I'll find a way to make it work for the sites I mod. I realize that may not be an option on other sites.

7:22 PM

mhm, ok. Thanks for answering. :)

@PM2Ring nvm, probably caching

As for treatment of the community, I'm getting a bit of 'mixed signals'. Compared to a previous times, Philippe and part of the CM team at least seems more present, reactive, responsive and at least doing stuff. As for whatever is above them, like a CEO with his head in an AI-cloud... I don't think anything I will do or say will influence anything like that, so... Yeah. Mixed feelings/signals.

8:17 PM

Although the staff made accusations of "geographical bias" in the ChatGPT suspensions, they haven't pushed that point to create a division in the community, unlike the "Divide & Conquer" strategy employed by "Fission Chipps" during Monica-gate.

Big Joe

So chatty, Everyone here today or was :P

8:38 PM

2 of the first pages results from searching up Stack Exchange relate to the current strike:wow

9:07 PM

irony

Feeds

xkcd.com/2785

9:20 PM

aah..Randall Mull

SE keeps removing comments that disagree with them

they're removing unconstructive comments

which is fine

if you wish to provide feedback do so constructively/respectfully

9:40 PM

i did both

btw we now have 600 strikers

and 88 current mods

then the comment wouldn't have been deleted. 😉 btw, all comments are visible in the archive.

a sample from Kaya3 here:https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389653/blog-post-ceo-update-paving-the-road-forward-with-ai-and-community-at-the-cent/389680#389680
perhaps what SE means is that the trust has been put into a blender.
my reply:no, a blender involves it still exists
taken down for no reason @KevinB

both of those are useless

how about this:27 upvotes in 5 mins. Stack Exchange, try listening. The voice is clear.

still not constructive

9:48 PM

how? it is asking SE to listen

another:Quite simply, you have done things that are destroying the site and that no one wants. You listen to no one. As a result we are (successfully) drawing your attention to it. Now you get all upset.

it's rude

that's making acusations with no evidence

We want a response

with no evidence?I beg to differ

@Starship-OnStrike and exactly how much useful information does such a comment convey? Everyone, including SE, knows what's going on, and what's the voice of the community is. I have to plead again: please, everyone, just... chill a little.

how about 600 ppl striking

being uncivil/actively hostile and creating a hostile atmosphere is no way to achieve our goals

2

9:49 PM

is any comment absouletly critical

it is not uncivil

yet another example:The new policy is:We permitted low-quality AI Generated nonsense

none of these comments are useful toward any goal

they're just junk. they don't push forward causing change, they just push people into corners and make no progress

more examples:I know, we are free too, and if this continues should, go on strike. A community driven site need be somewhat of a democracy to retain trust

they do make progress

going on strike doesn't mean we need to run around being actively hostile toward staff

more examples:
It is clear that we need to show SE that it needs us. I propose a 1 day long strike

we arent being hostile

some of "us" are

it needs to stop

9:51 PM

if anything, they (such comments), unfortunately, signal to the company that we can't be reasoned with and are just angry. A CM already expressed this concern today on Discord. Please, it really needs to stop, I agree with @KevinB

I am angry

more examples:Stack Exchange is stupid, what can you do...Short of Monica resistance style mass leaving..

don't comment angry

another comment

ill admit that is a bit rude...

a bit?

and this:When is the "We've replaced our CEO" question coming. Thats what im waiting for.

ok fine a lot

9:54 PM

that's... openly hostile. Many actively involved in the organization of the strike already expressed their concerns due to similar demands.

Therac

"I will never compromise the product"... "The product of a company is its stock"

Shadow Wizard Strikes Back

10:21 PM

oh yeah about stacks stock...in the toilet probably

@Starship-OnStrike virtual toilet?

I have different things in my toilet.

Well by now I'm beyond angry, it's the depressing emptiness that comes afterwards.

That non-apology posted few hours ago is exactly what we got in 2019. They just don't learn, sadly.

Though it was nice surprise to see any response at all.

One last advice before going to sleep and have sour dreams... @Starship please at least try to hold back from posting personal insults, even though being angry. Not only it can lead to suspension, it really has no point and isn't helping. "Lost direction" is fine. "Stupid" is not. Night!

7

!!/tea Spe before sleep

oh no tea. cries

one other thing I want to add to @ShadowWizardStrikesBack's note is that "why downvotes?" is also not a constructive form of communication (your posts or not yours nonwithstanding). It's well-established they are pretty much deleted on sight.

10:44 PM

Just keep in mind this: most mods partaking in the strike will still be keeping a journal of what actions they would have taken had they not been on strike, and will proceed to then perform those actions (to the best of their ability) once the strike is over. So the strike is not a free license to violate rules without getting sanctioned - you will still get sanctioned but it will be deferred.

@ShadowWizardStrikesBack :(