Tavern on the Meta - 2022-12-05

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Shadow The Kid Wizard

6:31 AM

@M.A.R. yeah, ESR-1 is double than maximum.

So my body is busy fighting some infection, likely reason why it won't gain weight, hopefully doctor will be able to help.

@M.A.R. it didn't, SE static files are heavily cached locally, so only after hard refresh or lots of ordinary reloads it will take new versions.

It's a problem that exists since the dawn of internet, probably, and will never be really fixed, for some odd reason.

(cache problems, causing sites to show outdated info and break their JS.)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

7:14 AM

I find it funny that ChatGPT got banned...was only a matter of time to be honest

this was even talked in other SE, such as academia.SE, etc

7:42 AM

@NordTheLoftyWizard that's why we can't have nice things...

Nord The Lofty Wizard

@MetaAndrewT. I mean, I'm not denying it's a "useful" tool, depending on context (and how it's used). But it does raise concern about how people make answers and possibly understand them. See here for a related post: academia.stackexchange.com/a/191214/165338

Journeyman Geek

→ 27 messages moved to Chimney

8:00 AM

@M.A.R. It's been there at least since the beta test.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

8:24 AM

@Mithical he's not a mod, we had no beta for the inbox changes.

Only mods got to test it.

That said, @M.A.R isn't it time you'll mod Chemistry.SE? ;)

@NordTheLoftyWizard ideally, SE should have had clear policy against using AI for posting questions or answers, in the TOS. This can be funny and nice for chat messages or silly contests, but harmful and destructive for the main Q&A sites.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

yep

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@SPA here often posting AI drawings, it's nice. And that's it, if people will now take it and sell for $10000 each, that would be not nice and harmful.

Sadly it's happening with NFT, and that's why it's very risky and harmful, overall.

People sell nothing, void, for lots of money, so at some point the bubble will explode.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

the fact that people do not try to know how it actually works and think of it as intelligent surprise me

Shadow The Kid Wizard

It's exactly the same as selling air in a jar.

@NordTheLoftyWizard they don't want to know.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

but when you tell them they react badly, I guess. I recall I was insulted here once for saying "AI is just statistics" or something along that line

Shadow The Kid Wizard

8:31 AM

They see cool buzz words, they see young rich people being very persuasive, and that is it. They will spend whatever it takes to have that shiny new thing.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

yeah, I guess they're part of the reason why they use those buzzwords for marketing, etc

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard not by me! I'd cheer you for that. ;)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

@ShadowTheKidWizard Thank you :)

I could link to the message that was posted here, but don't want to dwell on the past too much

Shadow The Kid Wizard

As a kid I admired AI and robots, read Asimov and thought "We're going to have awesome future with those robots!" but over the years, learned the harsh truth: true AI is fiction, and always will be.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

at least, I'm happy some people agreed about this when I said it again on academia.SE: academia.stackexchange.com/questions/191197/…

yep, same

I read all of their books too when I was younger

Shadow The Kid Wizard

8:35 AM

@NordTheLoftyWizard well, not all, but many. Best were those with the two robots and rule #0.

(one of the robots sacrificed himself to save humanity.)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

ah yeah, I recall that one "Three Laws of Robotics"

Shadow The Kid Wizard

There were several books, at least three.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

you know, I really liked reading Fahrenheit 451 when I found out about Asimov's books

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard heard about it, but never read it. :/

Nord The Lofty Wizard

it's pretty decent. It has similar vibes as the Asimov stories (not the same per se but I feel like they were slightly similar)

the focus isn't on robots though, but mostly advancement of technology and other dystopian tropes

(don't want to spoil so I'm being vague on purpose)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

8:40 AM

@NordTheLoftyWizard no worry if I'll ever read it, I'll check the preview and reviews before.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

8:52 AM

@ShadowTheKidWizard what's sad is that more people might actually listen if someone from a reputed background (eg: academic, etc) says the exact same thing publicly, with great details and proof. Whereas if I say it, it sounds likely false to a lot of people (even though I think it's obvious for some reasons)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

9:03 AM

@NordTheLoftyWizard true.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

don't want to dwell on this topic longer, but here is an interesting blog I found on the subject: statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2022/03/28/…

there are dozen more, but I don't think it's a good idea to all post them all at once

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard yeah, not here, but if you want you can start a new chat for that, and those interested will join.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

honestly, I'm not as charismatic as some people here, so I think I'll either be ignored/no one will join/talk enough there, or I'd get insulted like that last time there. Maybe if someone already made such a related room, I would probably go there instead

@NordTheLoftyWizard Yeah, fair point. If I did use it, I might consider ChatGPT as just another "dynamically-generated article" that needs to be crosschecked.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

yeah, if you're aware of the tool's limitations and inner workings, you can still find useful things to do with it. At the end of the day, it's just a tool, so using it responsibly is important

9:55 AM

@ShadowTheKidWizard no way in seven hills

I haven't touched any moderation tools for several years already on chem

@ShadowTheKidWizard did you have some . . . Risky meal?

If you only have an ESR elevation and normal markers everywhere else (especially the blood counts) it's probably not that serious, but I can't say much about how unpleasant it is or will be.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. as a mod you won't have to touch anything ;)

@ShadowTheKidWizard still, the last time I was really active on chem was even before being accepted into the university

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. well there are several others which are below the minimum, but only a bit, e.g. Hemoglobin 11.6 where 13 is the minimum. Urine test came out normal too. (Which is great surprise ;))

I'm an alien to Chem.SE and Chem.SE is alien to me now

@ShadowTheKidWizard hematocrit?

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. oh, didn't know that. Well you can always get back being active! :D

10:01 AM

No I can't. I just blew up an exam and I've been unproductive for too long

I fear they may even throw me out of the ubernerd league.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. nope.

user image

This ^

@ShadowTheKidWizard what do you mean? Your test didn't include CBC?

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. let me see...

@ShadowTheKidWizard look for HCT

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. there's RBC and C.R.P

@M.A.R. nope. Closest is MCHC

10:05 AM

@ShadowTheKidWizard if your HCT is not too weird you're only slightly anemic, not cause for much concern (it may be unrelated and just folate deficiency)

@ShadowTheKidWizard anyways stay safe and don't eat stale food

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. Well if only I knew my HCT. ;)

Maybe doctor didn't think it's required so didn't include it in the test.

(they check only what doctor says to check)

There might be follow-up tests. Any fever? Pain?

@ShadowTheKidWizard yep, that's how it works ;)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@M.A.R. none that I know of. (fever or pain. ;))

Shadow The Kid Wizard

10:21 AM

@Glorfindel see my comment, might be important.

@ShadowTheKidWizard that was a little joke, I knew it looked like a real fkey because it was only partially visible

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Glorfindel oh, OK.

but perhaps it sets a bad example, I'll think of something else

Shadow The Kid Wizard

So if attacker try to use that fkey, they'll get to YouTube? ;-)

@ShadowTheKidWizard Well, it ends with "not+my+real+key+of+course" :P

So I doubt it ends up on youtube either ;)

I like it, keep it @Glorfindel :)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

10:24 AM

@Tinkeringbell never thought to scroll that far :D

My key is 666shadow666

There's a possibility that a novice user will read my post, not scroll far enough as well, and conclude that if a veteran doesn't hide his fkey, they don't have to either.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Glorfindel yeah, that's a risk.

Anyway, 5 days since last blog post which means there will be a new one today. Wonder about what. ;)

so your comment was important after all :)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Glorfindel yay! :D

feeling important

@ShadowTheKidWizard and how many typos/unicode conversions we need to fix today ...

Shadow The Kid Wizard

10:28 AM

@Glorfindel actually been a while since they published something with errors/issues which is pleasant surprise. :)

Just the onebox always showing Ryan as author, and still sometimes ads under cover.

@JNat heavy cross site spammer for your awesome care. Thanks! :)

11:13 AM

@ShadowTheKidWizard Just using Hugging Face samples while they last. Today, another decent sample broke down. Suddenly img-to-img does no longer work, sample code doesn't show any change.... only explanation I can think of is that some external library dependency was updated.

Which means Hugging Face doesn't lock dependencies versions, utterly stupid if true

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@SPArcheon or they used AI to write some code.

(maybe copy&paste from SO answer doing it.)

1 hour later…

Shadow The Kid Wizard

12:40 PM

yay! 120

1:36 PM

120

?

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@starball jello in HNQ

6

Q: Please identify this green jello organism

I live in Okinawa, where the climate is sub-tropical, somewhat like Hawaii or Florida. The green jelly stuff shown below is fairly common in my neighborhood, and has recently started to appear in my garden. I think it’s disgusting, and I’d like to eradicate it, so I’m trying to learn more about i...

identification weeds fungus

@Tinkeringbell not anymore, 122 now

What are you counting?

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Tinkeringbell @M.A.R. knows

Oh, okay. That says enough, it is probably just nonsense then.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Tinkeringbell duh, 99.69% of what I do or say is nonsense. :P

wondering if SPA will notice

1:41 PM

@ShadowTheKidWizard make it 123

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@MetaAndrewT. yes! You're a very smart person, Sir Meta. :D

huh... is it that quick? ._.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@MetaAndrewT. what quick? The process of making you a Sir? Yes!

No need for a sword, it's so 1600's

@Meta sadly sometimes it's going down and I can't control it. :(

Halp!

@Nord what's your decision? You want to create a new room to discuss the AI stuff? I have no problem with it, but not going to create one myself, not feeling strongly enough about it. (Yet? This does appear to get worse every day.)

huh! Turns out I've posted 6% of the overall Tavern messages. :P

(and only 20% of Den messages which is weird, I might take a deeper look into it. ;))

@ShadowTheKidWizard apparently I've posted 0.681360872%

Shadow The Kid Wizard

1:59 PM

@Mithical huh, you made manual calculation?

I put "x is what percentage of y" into Google

Shadow The Kid Wizard

lol well that's kind of manual

Feature request to make the percentage being displayed more accurate? ;)

Where's the percentage displayed outside of bookmarks?

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Mithical bookmarks? Good to know! I just look in the chat room box, showing the users currently in the chat.

...I'm still not seeing a percentage there, do you have a screenshot?

The percentages shown in bookmarks are only for that particular bookmark.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

2:04 PM

user image

@Mithical it has no precision, so for lower than 1% it will show 0%.

Oh... huh. Interesting.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

Yeah, another hidden feature. ;)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

@SPArcheon yeah, they do this a lot. Some of those maintainers must think that the latest version of libraries is always equal to a good thing, without taking into account features change that introduces breakage/bugs...

@ShadowTheKidWizard honestly, not feeling too good about making one. The last time I made a room on SE, it never worked and got frozen :P I told you, I'm not charismatic enough

@ShadowTheKidWizard not a bug, just an edge case

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard most rooms get frozen eventually, so that's no reason to not start one. ;)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

2:14 PM

I mean, you're right, but I just have this feeling it will never take off

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Mithical it can't recognize migration?

@NordTheLoftyWizard maybe, but that's also the case with SE questions! ;-)

using ShadowAI to post questions

If it's migrated, it'll have a different ID and new activity. Smokey scans all new bumped content, so migration will cause a re-scan. IIRC there's some system in place that doesn't report the same post within a couple hours or whatever, but since it's not the same post ID it's not recognized as the same post.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

@ShadowTheKidWizard I don't know, for SE questions (outside of Meta) it's far easier to get views and upvote, as long as you do due diligence and have details, DYOR, etc. For Meta.SE, I don't really know since I only posted a couple times there anyway

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Mithical fair. Not a bug then. :)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

for SO...it's much harder for some reasons

Shadow The Kid Wizard

2:17 PM

@NordTheLoftyWizard I know

Luckily no downvotes in chat. ;)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

well, I did learn once that you could vote on messages in some chat room. Don't know if it's when they get flagged or not, but only people with enough reputation can see those, apparently.

2:30 PM

Yeah that's how chat flags are handled by muggles

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard nope, it's not votes, it's just "I agree" or "I disagree" with chat flags, available for anyone which 10k rep in the relevant domain.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

ah, got you

Shadow The Kid Wizard

(which means it's enough to gain 200 rep on one single site, and join 99 others, and you gain "mod power" on all se.com chats.)

@Tinkeringbell Sha has eaten some poisonous mushroom or something and he's a bit more excitable than usual.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

hmm, honestly only join the SE I'm interested in anyway (and you can view them even without joining them, so it's no issue for me)

you can check my network profile, there isn't that much SE sites there

Shadow The Kid Wizard

2:33 PM

@M.A.R. baba!

@NordTheLoftyWizard maybe you hide some..... ;-)

@ShadowTheKidWizard I believe that was fixed actually

it counts all your rep from all sites if you don't have 200 on any site, but once you reach that point it only counts the accounts with 200+ rep

Shadow The Kid Wizard

2:48 PM

@Mithical not sure. There was something for counting 20 rep requires to chat, but don't think it was extended.

(after trolls could chat with 1 rep by just joining 20 sites.)

@M.A.R. with all the turmoil around here, I forgot to ask, how are you doing with all the protests going around you? Hope you don't take active part? (For your own safety :))

3:08 PM

Just laid off? Nervous about possible layoffs? Here’s what to do.

Ryan Donovan on December 05, 2022

Suddenly losing a job can be personally destabilizing. But lots of us have been there and gotten through it.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@Feeds even broken onebox is correct once a day

@Feeds Step 1: Polish up CV. Step 2: Job hunt.

Or alternative Step 1: Get social security and Step 2: Avoid the application duty that comes with social security.

Don't see why that needs a whole blog post :P

Shadow The Kid Wizard

Yeah, not clear what's the point of the blog post.

It's a collection of quotes, actually.

And it's the only blog post tagged "layoffs". For now.

Maybe they're hinting what going to happen in SE? ;(

"But hey, why you complain? We gave great advise in the blog post!"

Still, it is odd. Hugging Face is a good resource to leach some samples for fun, but as an host it doesn't seem that great.
Suppose that I am right and the issue is due to an update to a referenced package without version locking... Then.... WHY two identical cloned spaces broke down on different dates? I originally assumed that an unrelated update broke the first one, but now the bug struck the second too.

Only thing I can think of is that the references are only updated when something cause a rebuild, while a restart/reset does not trigger it.... It is a mess of an environment.

And don't even get me started on how sometime I saw a space that had a combobox randomly missing some of its values every time you would "refresh - F5" the page...

Shadow The Kid Wizard

getting @SPA started

user image

Might be stuck.

3:35 PM

@ShadowTheKidWizard The more I know you, the more I think you are basically Brook from One Piece.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

@SPArcheon I agree it's weird. I don't know the real reason, but whether it's their build setup, or something else, it's probably not detailed. I remember looking up how to make my own Tesseract model from scratch (eg: without using a base model, which is the default way to do that, which uses the eng dataset). I only managed to find a single github issue related to that, and it wasn't detailed. Even the maintainers don't even know how to do it without a base model, for some reason.

I got a rough idea, so it doesn't matter, but this just goes to show that, as popular and wonderful a project is, that doesn't prevent weird/odd instances like this. I mean, at least it's on github, so it's better than nothing

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@SPArcheon wearing innocent face

@starball now your avatar is almost same as @Nord's

@ShadowTheKidWizard but are there any spiders in it?

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@starball too small to notice details

darn

Shadow The Kid Wizard

3:42 PM

hmm those are no spiders, Mr. ball

user image

512x512 showing all the gory details.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

wow, a shade of green

I don't know, mine looks like a broken wheel or something. Maybe one of those destroyer spaceships but as a wheel?

Shadow The Kid Wizard

You have good imagination, that's for sure. @Nord

lol you see??? I got confused! :P

@Nord here is your big avatar:

user image

Nord The Lofty Wizard

hmm, intriguing.

Shadow The Kid Wizard

Different enough when big, but alas chat using tiny avatars. :D

Nord The Lofty Wizard

Yeah, the colors get toned down a bit when using the tiny avatar too (unless it's an optical effect or something)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

3:46 PM

Colors looks the same, just the shapes get squished.

noooooo! Down to 120 :-(

Wonder what got deleted...

Nord The Lofty Wizard

back then, I recall you could see deleted comments (under post, don't know about chat) if you ever got pinged from it, and received it in your inbox. There a weird time window before it get deleted there too, or something like that, but I don't recall exactly

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard nope. We could never see comments that got actually deleted, but we can see comments under deleted posts, if we can see the post itself.

Nord The Lofty Wizard

I see, maybe I misremember :)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

And yeah, until not long ago, inbox messages would stay even if the relevant post/comment was deleted.

Now they just disappear as if they never existed.

I believe unless it's a followed post

Shadow The Kid Wizard

3:50 PM

@Mithical oh... I'm not a follower of the Follow feature.

;)

Nord The Lofty Wizard

@Mithical I see :o I never used that feature yet

Shadow The Kid Wizard

So if you Follow a post, you'll have the inbox items even after the post is deleted?

Nord The Lofty Wizard

I only upvote and bookmark. I think I only downvoted 3-4 times in 2 years

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard we can't bookmark anymore

Not even via the apps.

@ShadowTheKidWizard that was my experience as of a couple weeks ago, I don't know if it was fixed

Nord The Lofty Wizard

3:52 PM

@ShadowTheKidWizard sorry, save (same thing to be honest)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@NordTheLoftyWizard it's upgraded bookmarks! :D

@Mithical interesting. Bug report?

*shrugs*

Shadow The Kid Wizard

shrugs back

wondering if the other @Mith wants coffee?

🚽

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@KevinB well that's where the coffee goes, eventually.

gtg, still need to add an inspector.

4:12 PM

Navigation and UI research starting soon

3

3

Q: Navigation and UI research starting soon

We’ve been running the site satisfaction survey on Stack Overflow since 2019. Since its creation, the Stack Overflow audience has told us that Stack Overflow’s design is a pain point—stating that the design is outdated, cluttered, messy, and unintuitive. It’s clear that many users aren’t happy wi...

discussion design navigation user-experience research

i mean

is that really what they stated, or is that what you derived from your questions that don't directly ask that

Journeyman Geek

You should ask

i already know the answer

;)

Journeyman Geek

ask anyway!

Shadow The Kid Wizard

4:30 PM

@Mithical awesome. Thousands of hours, both of staff and of the users, wasted. For nothing.

@ShadowTheKidWizard a developer cleaned up all comments when changing status of a bug.

@JourneymanGeek can I ask instead?

Journeyman Geek

sure

people are not going to realise something is a problem unless we speak up

TLDR, stackoverflow.blog/2020/01/22/… showed a high number of people seeing issues with design

this was before dark mode theme existed, and requests for dark mode were part of that

the data is now entirely out of date, given dark mode has existed for a few years now

Journeyman Geek

Dark mode only exists for SO

Shadow The Kid Wizard

And it's not solution to everything.

Design won't become perfect just because you can't see the flaws. :P

Personally I have no problem with the design, but I'm old fashioned myself so not a good example.

And since so many people have so many different views about what's wrong, can't see it being ever really "fixed".

Someone will always complain.

@JourneymanGeek SO is the only site that matters

Journeyman Geek

4:42 PM

ehhh

That sort of thinking goes so well

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@JourneymanGeek you meant SO well.

Journeyman Geek

SO sometimes dosen't go well :D

Shadow The Kid Wizard

Anyway, anyone figured what "neurodiverse" got anything to do with the navigation research?

Looks like something utterly out of place, unless I'm missing something.

Journeyman Geek

well - I'd guess autistic or dyslexic friendly design

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@JourneymanGeek ohh, that's what they mean with "neurodiverse"? hmm

Google didn't really help, so no idea.

Journeyman Geek

4:45 PM

I'd love the option to go bigger font/wider for example and use more friendly fonts

since it makes for easier reading for me

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@JourneymanGeek that's basic accessibility.

@JourneymanGeek buy new glasses. :D

Journeyman Geek

oh its not eyesight

its more of processing

\

Shadow The Kid Wizard

If you find it hard to read something, it's a bad eyesight.

Journeyman Geek

Oh I can read it

Shadow The Kid Wizard

Or rather "not good enough"? ;)

Journeyman Geek

4:46 PM

its more a matter of absorption and understanding

basically I read blocks of letters/words

so the bigger fonts force me to slow down

Shadow The Kid Wizard

Sounds like you are neurodiverse! ;-)

Journeyman Geek

uh

I have a piece of paper proving it somewhere ;)

Shadow The Kid Wizard

Diverse that's for sure. :D

Dunno about neuro.

@ShadowTheKidWizard my read on it was they wanted to make sure they were part of the research, not necessarily design for it

Shadow The Kid Wizard

@KevinB so they can collect yet another bit of info, yeah.

Journeyman Geek

4:48 PM

not sure if I have the bandwidth for it tho

course, how do you determine who fits that group?

let people self-identify?

5:07 PM

@ShadowTheKidWizard pretty sure dyslexia is a textbook case of neurodivergence

Shadow The Kid Wizard

5:25 PM

@KevinB yup

it's kinda like a cheat code. by selecting this one option, you can make your voice have a bigger impact on the result

Shadow The Kid Wizard

6:18 PM

@KevinB well anyone can tell what they want about themselves and gain things they shouldn't have by that.

7:09 PM

→ 49 messages moved to Chimney

1 hour later…

8:14 PM

I adopted a cat that weighs 12 solar masses. Laser pointers love chasing it.

2 hours later…

Nord The Lofty Wizard

9:57 PM

I don't know if this works (don't have nvidia on my immediate promixity) but might be useful: gist.github.com/chavinlo/8038e59db7f5a07da0c66cbea2a7ccf7 @SPArcheon

they have other nice stuff on their gist.github (and by extension github)

2 hours later…

forest distrusts StackExchange

11:48 PM

I'm an SE mod, not an SO mod, but I'll relay that to them. Thanks.

@MartinSmith we're trying to avoid publicly posting the visible heuristics, but thanks

→ 1 message moved to Room for MSE Tavern RO's

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