Tavern on the Meta

8:53 AM

→ 14 messages moved to Chimney

Yaakov Ellis

9:23 AM

@ert definitely interested, thanks

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog yeah, Catija made me aware of that earlier. Was hoping that no one else would notice ;-). Trying to address that one now as well

hoping no one else would notice ... I see you met @SonictheAnonymousHedgehog already ... ;)

Or a good chunk of meta 😂

Or that ^ indeed

9:39 AM

heh

thankfully have the day off

Bart

9:51 AM

@Magisch o/

meta is a bit like an overzealous Q/A department

It'd be great if it was only that :)

10:06 AM

@Shadow9 morning

or afternoon.

Night, even.

your choice

morninoonht

Nooon

Buh Windows 10 ran some auto update and now cheese moved around... feels like SE, where stuff move without notice. lol

e.g. there is huge search box in the bottom now all of a sudden...

I think you can disable that

meh

Won't bother for now

Will try to get used to it first

Start menu will probably get stuck in few hours as it always does, so that search box can be useful to run stuff instead of Win+R that I always use.

> "We have specific metrics we want to increase."

10:27 AM

@Mithical to be fair there is also

> Community has to be renewed.

10:39 AM

ouch

dark dark yet darker.

It sounds like "We thank the existing community for getting us where we are now, but if you could all leave please and make place for a new woke user base, that would be great" — Alex 45 mins ago

11:31 AM

@Mithical the two most critical topics were ignored, as expected, with cold and lame "we can't discuss this". All in all, this whole meeting is nothing more than a failed attempt to fool the community. Well, they don't fool me. There's no real intention behind their empty words.

9

@BlueSoul yep, that's what I get as well.

This bus smells like chicken soup.

> "What is a community? A miserable little pile of secrets!"

@Mithical maybe because one (or more) of the passengers carry chicken soup? ;)

*shrugs* Dunno, but it's making me hungry.

Take the waffle out your pocket and eat it.

:D

11:41 AM

Waffle... pocket....

@Shadow9 what was heard is as important as what was said. Even if it's sometimes late

Suddenly I'm very scared of Sha's pockets.

@Mithical I sometimes put waffles (I think? The small rectangle type, never sure how they're called in English) in my pocket when going home. :P

@JourneymanGeek in this case the saying "It's never too late" is wrong. It is too late.

@Shadow9 wafers?

@Mithical בפלות

11:45 AM

this deserves a knitting.

58 secs ago, by Mithical

@Shadow9 wafers?

(yes wafers)

So be it. ;)

So I wrap a wafer with tissue paper, and put it in the pocket, praying I won't forget it in there. :P

@Shadow9 well there's a time for 'we told you so'

And I didn't say never too late 😁

11:51 AM

@JourneymanGeek mumble.... Case #2?

@Magisch I took a look at your path of exile build, has similar damage to the 10ex version of the one I'm following, which uses high eva/dodge with other mitigations for infrequent hits. With 19/0 support gems, empower 3, gear that's generally 1 mod poorer, and no unique jewels my damage is much closer to the 3ex budget version. I missed the addition of the curse gloves, going to have to try them out in some future build. pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2581551/page/1

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight I league started with this build. I carried over 75 awakener 8 fights before upgrading to the empower (was using 5L cane before then) and before getting the double corrupt chest. The amulet was something I bought early for 4 ex with my first 4 I got. I'm not using ED except for single target

the way the curse gloves work is they cast all the curses in them when you cast bane, because bane counts as a curse skill.

It's by no means minmaxed. If you invest another 15-20 ex into a good bow and quiver, and go LL instead, you can reach 3m dps combined. But it's not necessary. Even the 800k or so I have now combined kills Sirus like he's a trash mob, and the DoT playstyle means you get to focus on dodging his attacks and learning the fight. The same is true with most other encounters.

people overvalue dps a lot

I'm only using blight for single target, my biggest problem with boss fights is my reactions times aren't fast enough to move out out telegraphed attacks reliably.

see the benefit of bane occultist is you don't have to really ever stand still

put on bane and ED and then focus on moving around. You only really have to cast twice every 6s

withering presence means you don't need to micro wither totems either. Combined with having withering step and flame dash it just turns into an incredibly chill build for bossing

I hadn't had a better league start since old arc traps. From when you get bane (24 iirc) until red maps its straight up smooth sailing. As long as you don't mind taking more then 2 seconds to kill things

room title changed to Gaming on the Meta

:P

12:04 PM

If you're taking down Sirus like trash I'm wondering if there's something off with the POB calcs because with ~400-500k elder DPS the other 4 conquerer flights take forever (ex I've yet to get the 45s kill challenge), haven't tried sirus yet. Probably will sometime this week; but I fully expect to get gibbed by stuff I'm too slow to avoid even though telegraphed

intriguing game mechanics, lost me on the "online only" requirement.

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight sirus doesn't have high health. The reason people take long to kill him is 100% uptime in the last phase

A sirus kill for me takes ~3 minutes at A8 and is 99% deathless. All of his moves are very telegraphed and not having to cast much means you get all the time in the world to learn to dodge them. In the last phase, the vulnerability windows line up perfectly with when you re-apply your dots. That way your ~400k dps is in actuality more effective then a meele build's 5 million, because you get optimal uptime and no visual clutter to randomly get you killed by not seeing a degen or beam.

with my current gear it's more like 2 minutes, and the last phase can be creatively cut short by linking culling strike to your flame dash to shave off the last 10% HP ;)

a 2 minute fight against something that can 1shot is something I've got near zero chance of winning because my reaction times are too slow to reliably run away

in that case you should get one of those 100m dps facebreaker builds and insta-phase him :p

if they didn't either require 100 billion ex and lvl 99 trees or mechanics I find too clunky to enjoy playing (traps or mines)...

normally I just ignore top end boss fights - not the part of the game I enjoy playing - really hating on conquerers forcing them to progress the atlas

12:14 PM

@BlueSoul pretty common for mmorpgs

(hint is in the o)

yep I know.

But....

@JAD lol

Best I played was Mu online

POE is more an ARPG than an MMO; fully playable without partying. GGG went online only as anti-cheat

A) this looks more Diablo than Ultima - so I don't really feel the urge for online.

I played loads of Runescape

12:16 PM

B) I kinda stopped online mmorpgs far ago.

@JAD tried it for a while, something didn't click

that's odd, it's mostly clicking gameplay :P

lol

You're on a lol roll, @JAD

:D

as for the "anti-cheat" thing, same old Diablo 3 stuff. If your only/main source of income is the in-game shop, then you force online. Not because you care about people ruining other users experience with cheat, because if one can cheat out the armor DLC then you get no sales.

Although they've lost the war against currency farming/trading bots they're doing a really good job against other cheating. Been a few years since anyone found a rollback bug that could be exploited to reuse currency; and since that required crashing the instance servers before they could update the master database it announced itself nicely in their error logs.

12:18 PM

Considering PoE is free to download, I can live with that choice.

and with that, I need to get ready for work. sigh

Try to make me buy the game and then lock me into online only when I just want single player because "protecting you from cheats" and your game will stay on the shelve.

Did that for Diablo 3 and Diablo 4 will probably follow the same destiny

(the fact that Diablo 3 also was pretty bad helped)

djsmiley2k TMW

shelf. :)

1:13 PM

@BlueSoul poe does not allow you to purchase any power-affecting items

and the game itself is free

54 mins ago, by BlueSoul

Considering PoE is free to download, I can live with that choice.

the only thing you arguably need to buy to have a good time at end game is some stash space and 2-3 speciality stash tabs. They run a sale on stash tabs at the start of every league so you can get what you need for 15 quid or so

or you're like me (a total hoarder) and buy dozens of stash tabs

I dont feel bad about it because I get thousands of hours of highly enjoyable gameplay out of it

@Magisch and yep, you already mentioned that. What I mean is that generally I don't expect a company to care at all about the fact that some players are able to cheat in a game unless it strongly impacts the other players experience to the point of actually causing players to leave.

The main mode of play in PoE is a trade league

Which, at least imho, is not very common.

1:15 PM

the economy is a very important dimension of the game

On other hand, if you have any item - be it an upgrade or an eye-candy that can be bought... if anyone manages to have the same item without paying you... that is real damage.

some 90% of players play in trade league, a resetting league every 3 months. The economy of playing and farming and the interweaving systems are designed to allow people to have fun trading and acquiring items, and to allow several viable endgame paths and make acquiring currency interesting. The currency system itself is a large part of that. There's no "gold" in poe, everything you trade with has a use

the common low tier currency (chaos orbs) are used to reroll modifiers on rare items and pay for some crafts. There are 15+ types of currency items that all have unique uses

Anyone being able to say dupe orbs or items in trade league would really destroy the fun for a large part of the playerbase. Maybe they could allow SSF to be offline but I doubt the client could run the serverside calculations on an average PC.

Again, not really talking specifically about PoE there. But I'll stand my point. IMHO most of the "we protect the player from cheats" talks are just a "we protect our sales from people getting the same items without paying"

I dont disagree

it's true for d3

the only reason it is online only was because they didn't want people not using the RMAH

and when they removed the RMAH the online-only was too ingrained to be worth removing

@Magisch D3 was often unplayable single player for me

which...

totally ruined the experience for me

1:19 PM

@Magisch Also, be aware that they claimed the same about D3 "to many calculations, client would be impossible".

then guess what - console version had offline mode

they wanted d3 at the start to have a trade-like metagame. E.g you find something good for some class and sell it and then buy good things for your own

@BlueSoul we all know consoles are superior when it comes to computation power

\s

@Magisch no, they wanted to do money fast on the skin of the whales.

that didnt work out because it was forced and because 99.99% of what you got was crap, and the difficulty scaling was bad and the items uninteresting

@BlueSoul I know that, but my PoE client chokes sometimes running just the client side

diablo 3 runs on a toaster on min settings

a product of a team of 15 people making it for years until they could hire more people

@Magisch I don't know if your realize but the IN-GAME npc shop at higher difficulties level sold items that were vastly superior to lower difficulties end game gear. And remember - D3 has no level / star requirements for items.

1:22 PM

I played d3 at the start

chest farming in a1 and a2 inferno was real

my dad and me made a couple hundred bucks doing it before stopping

an the auction house - what a great invention.

Officially, a real player would sell an item and Blizard would get a %

but... could you confirm that some REAL player was selling those items?

for what I know, they could even put generated items on sale there and no one would have know

I never understood the action house to begin with. Diablo 3 is a pretty dull repetitive game, the only fun I can get out of it is that random drop with a gold shining light coming out of it which then hopefully turns out to be something really good. And then you bypass all that and buy your stuff... It's like making the game play itself.

@Magisch if you only have dozens of tabs you're not a real hoarder. I've got >100 premium tabs. about 3/4ths from early in the game when 2 same name rares made an alch and they were perilously close to P2W, the rest from trying to control my collection of maps/currency standard prior to the specialty tabs.

Mgetz

1:38 PM

@Magisch now I want to find an x86 IOT toaster and run D3 on it

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight I got one of every speciality tabs, 2 map tabs, 3 currency tabs, 10 quad tabs and a couple more normal public tabs

but nothing crazy

1:51 PM

@Gimby same guys that buy a console rpg and then play it as fast as possible, skipping all dialogues and cutscenes.

I never skip in the first watch

same ones that rejoy when a glitch allows you to skip a level

so.. yep, you are basically right I fear. The game should play itself

djsmiley2k TMW

AGDQ has done some diablo runs, but I think that's limited to 1 and 2.

AG who?

I think I've got 1 of every specialty tab, 7 or 8 map tabs (trying to control the mess in standard aka I'm insane),6 or 8 quad tabs, and ~100 normal premium tabs (aka I was insane a half dozen years ago too). What're your multiple currency tabs for? Some form of playing economy simulator?

awsome games done quick

1:59 PM

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight I dont play standard, I have so many remove only tabs there

@Magisch you seem in need of help, my friend.... I could provide a cure for your stockpiling issues. Has thou ever heard of Fallen London?

There is a quest there you may be interested in....

sunless sea?

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight I often play with others at league start, and we generally split after a week or so

@Magisch oh, I see you prefer something more recent... Yes, that can do, too....

Ever considered inquiring about the Carnelian Exile?

sunless skies is pretty neat

@BlueSoul I can sort of understand (but do not support) that, that's the urge to go go go to be able to play the next 5 games just in time because the next 6 "must play" games are releasing two months later.

curious

2:11 PM

→ 13 messages moved to Chimney

I don't play standard either except maybe 1 or 2 days in a quarter where I'm skipping the challenge league for other stuff, but my OCD insists on emptying all my read only specialty tabs anyway

@Gimby well, that is a side of the problem yep. But there is also the fact that nowadays games are seen as something you should be able to complete fast.

anyway, as a side notice to my previous mentioning of Fallen London (& successors) , it is still somehow intriguing how that game still manages to keep a decent amount of secrets about those quests endings.

still baffles me.

Knowing internet, I would have expected people to reveal the "hidden" endings fast, days after someone first managed to reach them.

2:29 PM

@Tink see what popped in my TL - this reminded me of your socks! That said, any new socks for you? ;)

I don't know... does that show respect to the developers work.... or is just the evil heart of the players?

Is that really following a policy, or just keeping the secret so that others can ruin their characters too?

@BlueSoul probably just not enough players who play/care about it

Need a big user base to create a solid wiki or cheat sheet for a game... no?

@Shadow9 well.... there are fan made games who tried to hide big secrets and failed even when the developer asked to avoid to mention them.

@Shadow9 you think that Fallen London has no wiki? There are multiple ones, even.

yet, as far as I know (not really going to check, I don't play the game so...) no one contains a description of the end of the quest

@BlueSoul no idea, just my idea based on.... nothing, actually. :D

the only things I know is that:
a) the developer asked to the player to avoid mentioning how the quest ends.
b) the quest is made so that as you play thru it you accumulate penalties, have to waste resources, get permanent debuffs... to the point that it leaves your character basically unplayable.

As far as I know it even caused some issues (maybe even legal ones) - you know, a game with in-game real money shop that gives you a way to permanently cripple you and lose your paid-for stuff is due to have angry users at some point

Anyway, as I said, the thing that really fascinates me is the fact that so far there haven't been serious leak (and if there were, they are mostly removed).

Compared to other games... seems a pretty decent result.

Which, as I said, is why I wonder: do the player keep the secret because they were asked to or it is just the dark pleasure of knowing that if one wants to know they will have to cripple their character too?

2:45 PM

Hmm.... good question. But if real money is involved, maybe they're afraid of lawsuits.

@Shadow9 who? the players? for what? posting a screenshot?

first, they would post it somewhere so that they can't be tracked down.

second... no risk there, it wouldn't probably violate the ToS.

I have confirmed that. The only mention the developer makes of that quest/storyline is a request to not mention the ending. No rule.

Well maybe they post, and the developer deletes it quickly?

couldn't really control the whole web.

See the disaster with the leaked FF demo recently.

The screenshot are EVERYWHERE.

Square has tried to remove/contain them, but it is like trying to contain water with a colander

(I mean... they couldn't even manage to remove the demo... figure if they could remove the screens)

3:15 PM

It happened, if they didn't do it on purpose to do some viral marketing than there is only one way forward and that is to enjoy the added buzz that this has created. The screenshots were more interesting to me than the trailer with horrible voice acting... I really hope I can play that game with Japanese audio and English subtitles...

So far, it only confirmed a thing. The flashback in Kalm has probably been moved to Midgard (in order to give some actual content to the game). That means that the story behind the flashback is still there.

So, that probably sorts out changes on the Zack/Cloud subplot.

doesn't really answer if there are other changes.

3:36 PM

a wild @M.A.R appears

the moose is here also.

Rubic, not Man. ;)

@Shadow9 that was NSFW ...

3:52 PM

Opinion- See this old answer. Since the original source went offline, is it appropriate to replicate the content from the link here in case the archive copy becomes unavailable too?

@rene socks? Only for some...

@rene first rule. Never open suspicious looking links from Shadow.

@BlueSoul not "Never open any link from Shadow"? I'm honored. :P

A bit late but thanks for the advice

Those are some serious... socks.

3:58 PM

Yup, but have you seen Tink's?

;)

(hmm.... think she posted the socks here too... but maybe only on Twitter? Not sure.)

@Shadow9 well, if the link point to a question on meta, and the question title seems to be mad at SE... then probably it is "just" drama and it is safe to click....

hehe

And links to Den?

those should be blocked at firewall level.

just in case you miss-click.

(deliberate error there to annoy someone)

lol

looking for Ms. Click

found @Bart instead

Dec 20 '18 at 9:29, by M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Derpy But come on, "Miss remembering"?

4:11 PM

:D

@It's hilarious.

GO Ms. Tree and GO Ms. Chief :)

4:34 PM

massages temples

I'm so sick of explaining how map() differs from forEach()

I feel your pain, it's obvious: one starts with an 'm' and the other with an 'f' /s

that... and people love their array methods so much they've forsaken the basic loop constructs

so, they contort their iteration-bodies to accommodate the array methods...

@canon explain to who?? It's as different as... umm... wait, what's the difference?

:P

I was horrored for years that forEach() didn't give the index and I had to use a counter (!) to achieve that. So primitive. ;)

retrofitting a counter is generally fewer changed lines in a diff than rewriting a non-trivial loop from foreach to for. #worstpractices

@Shadow9 forEach() does provide an index -in JavaScript. ;)

most of the array iteration methods do

4:45 PM

@canon well, I didn't figure this for years, lol. Didn't use forEach a lot, so didn't really look into it. :D

heh

But forEach() did cause lots of bugs, since it also iterates properties added in other means.... :/

oh wait, that's not forEach(), nvm

That was the for (x in arr)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

mhmm

oof, I wrote this paragraph mainly about the motivations and behaviors of the the 1% in relation to the 99% on SO... but now it sort of seems like it applies to SE vs the 1% now.

> As much as SE (the company) strives for inclusion and warm fuzzies, their unpaid curators are constantly (and meticulously) peeling these posts free of their distressed, wriggling, meat-space writers... endeavoring to judge all content in isolation. We've adopted this clinical dispassion, out of necessity, in order to keep our sanity.

> We choose to forget that these contributors are emotional creatures, invested in the things they create. Their suffering is irrelevant. We care about the content, not the person.

7:34 PM

@JourneymanGeek @Tinkeringbell Spam account: meta.stackexchange.com/users/698292/user698292

Dragonrage

@Shadow9 why wouldnt you use a for loop if you need the index?

Rob

fo shizzle

== English == === Alternative forms === for shizzle, fo’ shizzle, fa shizzle === Etymology === Blend of for sure +‎ -izzle (rhyming ending). Popularized by rap artist Snoop Dogg; see -izzle for details. === Pronunciation === (AAVE) IPA(key): /fɔ ˈʃɪzl̩/ === Prepositional phrase === fo shizzle (slang, hip-hop) For sure; of course; right on 2001, Shawn Corey “Jay-Z” Carter, “Izzo (H.O.V.A.)”, The Blueprint, Roc-A-Fella and Island Def Jam H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A Fo’ shizzle my nizzle used to dribble down in VA 2002, Calvin Cordozar “Snoop Dogg” Broadus, Jr., “Beautiful”, Paid ...

Use that instead of fo reach

It's Over

8:04 PM

@Shadow9 OwwK, you have a good memory

Now if only you had half of the deliberation

Oh look, new meta kerfuffle

SE didn't disappoint. It was perfectly disappointing.

So they didn't disappoint by disappointing

user400654

it was everything i expected it to be

It's Over

It's . . . complicated

I dunno if it's a social media-like thing, but I guess something about this whole thing keeps sparking new emotions and discussion

I won't pretend I don't feel anything, and I see others feel things too, although much more than me, I guess.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@It'sOver Call it the Jon Hanlon's curse :P

Mark

8:21 PM

@Rob en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/HowTo:Shizzle_a_nizzle

It's Over

8:35 PM

Whether it can be explained by scientific brain hormone mumbo jumbo or not, it exists. Maybe the last modicum of hope, ever dwindling but never getting to a zero.