Tavern on the Meta

Magisch

15:00

I'm at a loss why they'd break pagination and search on purpose

doesn't wordpress have some way of that by default?

Catija

Ooof. That top banner needs to not just be the SO banner... it should be SO blog or something. I was half expecting clicking the logo to go to SO proper.

Mithical

That's probably why there's a bare link to "stackoverflow.com" in the other corner...

Well, not bare. It has tracker junk on it.

Magisch

@Catija Hey, at least you're in a position to raise this internally :D

Journeyman Geek

0

Q: The Stack Overflow blog lacks findable search or pagination

There's been a push to try to move over more communication to stack overflow's blog. There's a few fundamental issues that seem to make it unsuitable for the task, or for that matter, any purpose at the moment There is no search. There is no pagination. Practically there is no 'organic' wa...

go mad ;)

Mithical

AAAGGHHHHHH

Wait, that's not what you meant.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

15:04

?

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek runs around like headless chicken

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Mithical I see you changed again, nice!

Mithical

I did say the other one was temporary

Drag and Drop

Picture size made me think you actually made multiple screen shoot and merge them together messing with the zoom.

Journeyman Geek

@DragandDrop actually

cropped from a full page screenshot

Hitodama

15:06

done. Added the full EGA palette.

Journeyman Geek

oh, the one I linked cat was the whole thing

@Catija I feel like I should have let @curious loose on it

she's an actual graphics designer. :D

Drag and Drop

Yeah, but the vignette size . Change after for the 13th post.. Is that some css Triskaidekaphobia

Catija

The smaller ones are the non-featured ones.

Journeyman Geek

The secret of a good rant is to get it all out at once :D

Catija

Look at the dates. They go in descending order until it gets to the smaller ones and then it jumps to more recent.

curious

15:12

@JourneymanGeek I just got here. Drank my coffee. I'm ready! Where? x)

I do have a knitting to finish though :P

Journeyman Geek

No rush ;p

See the MSE post I linked above

curious

@JourneymanGeek Oh yea I noticed that when looking for the new blog post that was buried under a bunch of older stuff /s :)

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Mithical what happens if parents take a look again?

curious

fwiw, I'm pretty sure there used to be one

Shadow The Princess Wizard

We talk about blog search? Well, SE switch blog platform every 6-8 months. Literally.

Some have search, some don't have.

So no worry, soon they'll switch to another platform, and it might have search. ;)

Mithical

15:16

@ShadowThePrincessWizard meh

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Mithical you won't face hard questions? :)

Mithical

doubt it

curious

Well after looking on wayback, maybe not. but you do have pagination if you're looking through a tag

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowThePrincessWizard they've been on hosted WP a while

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@JourneymanGeek yep

Then tried something of their own, then back to WP then dunno, stopped tracking.

Journeyman Geek

15:17

jekyll

was a git backed blog

Shadow The Princess Wizard

Jak what?

lol

George Stocker

Everyone has made the bed they want to sleep in.
SE Inc wants no one want to ask them about company or community policies.
The Meta.SE Mods don't want to deal with the fallout of people asking about company or community policies.
The leaves everyone else to decide if they're cool with that. If they are, they should stick around. If they aren't, they should either get used to the feeling of banging their head against a desk, or do something else away from SE.

11

Journeyman Geek

jekyllrb.com

@GeorgeStocker uhm. I'm not sure what exactly gives you that idea.

We're grumpy over some stuff sure but I don't exactly recall us saying anything to the level of us not wanting to deal with it.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@GeorgeStocker hello to you too! I see you came ready, not sure for what?

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Us of course! We're very bad mods.

George Stocker

15:20

@JourneymanGeek We could talk about it here but as I understand it 'here' is not the place to 'contest deletion'.

Tinkeringbell

Being appointed and stuff...

Shadow The Princess Wizard

spanking bad parrot in the tail

George Stocker

Which does reaffirm the "We don't want to deal with those sorts of problems"

2

whether it is intentional or not.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@GeorgeStocker that's right, it will be moved to Trash by RO or mod.

It's more like "we want to keep this room clean", IMO.

George Stocker

If this place isn't to discuss what happens on Meta.SE, then precisely what would it be for?

Journeyman Geek

15:22

@GeorgeStocker Eh, its also true of other chatrooms - with a few exceptions

George Stocker

(We want to talk about Meta.SE. Except the messy stuff?)

Shadow The Princess Wizard

> general discussions about MSE or the wider network also welcome

@GeorgeStocker exactly

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker I guess the problem with discussing deletions is, everyone thinks they're right, and would do a better job, or things would be done differently

and it never ends

Shadow The Princess Wizard

If it's messy, take it outside - that's what I get, and it's fine: we can create other rooms for that.

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowThePrincessWizard Pecks at eyes

Shadow The Princess Wizard

15:23

So new room can be created, then you can invite people to it, either directly/manually or by posting a link here. @George.

Rubiksmoose

@GeorgeStocker I'd also point out that the SE inc. point seems flawed here. There are people in the company that want and are taking feedback. Also, not every policy is treated the same way.

George Stocker

It comes across as the privileged not wanting to hear dissention. Again, whether intentional or not.

3

@ShadowThePrincessWizard Catching up on the events of the past couple days in this room.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker we do take and act on a lot of input. But practically, we can't make everyone who feels their post or comment is privileged happy

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@GeorgeStocker knitting and Megan leaving are the main events, I think.

George Stocker

@ShadowThePrincessWizard I am principally referring to this as the newest example of the phenomena I posted. chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8108199#8108199

Journeyman Geek

15:26

@GeorgeStocker It wasn't a real question - even by her admission

George Stocker

I don't agree with Mari-Lou on this (or probably much of anything); but this is another example of quelling community dissention (I really need to look up how to spell that word in this tense).

2

Magisch

there's a fine line between keeping order and putting the boot down

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker Well - pretty much, you either agree that the post should be left alone, and there's a few folks who have tried to pressure us to let "the community" do whatever, or that the action was ok.

Magisch

mind, to the outside eye the latest series of deletions looks bad, but we're missing a lot of context

George Stocker

FUnny enough keeping it around would allow the community to collectively say, "Hey, we don't like this." which would keep the moderators from sticking out like sore thumbs at a bad time to do so.

Magisch

15:27

still looks bad to whoever wants to see it that way though

Journeyman Geek

And in a lot of situations, we end up having to deal with bad answers

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@GeorgeStocker Well, @rene coined it nicely: "we're done with the dumpster fire". I don't agree with the deletion, prefer locking with a canned message, but also won't go and fight the deletion.

Magisch

moderating MSE is a thankless job

George Stocker

@ShadowThePrincessWizard Which supports exactly what I said above: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8111513#8111513

Stevoisiak supports Monica

I'm surprised they have a hat for starred chat messages.

Magisch

15:29

angry people think you're a betrayer collaborating with the company and suppressing dissent and other people think you're watching the tire fire burn

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker the phrase I used is "This is a Kobayashi Maru situation"

at the end of the day, the buck still stops with is, and it isn't exactly an easy series of flags to handle

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@GeorgeStocker except it's not SE Inc. doing, as the mods don't work for SE.

George Stocker

@ShadowThePrincessWizard See the second sentence: "The Meta.SE Mods don't want to deal with the fallout of people asking about company or community policies. "

Shadow The Princess Wizard

If a CM or other SE staff would delete those questions I'd agree with what you said, but that's not the case.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

For what it's worth, I appreciate all the work the mods are doing right now

I can't imagine how stressful it must be right now

Journeyman Geek

15:30

@GeorgeStocker : "damned if we do, damned if we don't"

George Stocker

Or as rene so eloquently put it: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8111558#8111558

Journeyman Geek

and If everyone is a moderator, no one is

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@GeorgeStocker Suppose the mods will let those discussions live and prosper. What will happen? When will it stop or end?

Sorry wrong ping ^

Stevoisiak supports Monica

No problem

Shadow The Princess Wizard

:)

George Stocker

15:31

@ShadowThePrincessWizard Maybe never. Or maybe like water it will eventually find its level. However if you keep trying to dam the water you may find out you put the dams in the wrong spots.

Journeyman Geek

I'd say that there's a lot more non constructive discussions and in some cases folks focused on pushing a point.

2

Tinkeringbell

Yep

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker or the whole place gets flooded

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@GeorgeStocker true, but I want to believe the mods let the good discussions live.

George Stocker

@JourneymanGeek That's the risk of building in a flood plain. And I'd say right now our community resembles that entire situation.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

15:32

Right now, meta is centered on a single point. It's a point that, for better or worse, the active meta community will not back down on

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker and I'm not happy with sitting back and letting my community get flooded.

If I was, I wouldn't have come back

Tinkeringbell

Honestly. We've seen what happens when nothing is ever moderated on MSO enough. We're going things differently whether you like it or not.

Journeyman Geek

I literally got told the same thing by another ex-mod, and that people needed to vent.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It's the single pressure point the entire dam has been trying to hold back

George Stocker

We're not in a good place -- I don't think anyone will dispute that. What I am advocating for is to focus on the egregiously bad stuff and let everything else ride. People will get it out of their system, the community will get a chance to register its displeasure with their words (and the actions of SE Inc); and eventually it'll die down on its own.

3

But the more you fight the borderline stuff, the more you give people ammunition to fight back.

3

And Mari-Lou's post (I'd also put Robert Harvey's post there too) is borderline.

3

Tinkeringbell

15:34

@GeorgeStocker it has had two months to die down. At some point, you gotta move on to euthanasia.

Anything else would be cruel

Erik Reinstate MonicA

Reiterating the same point again and again and again is not good for anyone, though. If your post truly adds something to the existing discussion, I think it's fine, but for now I'm 100% on-board with the recently deleted stuff

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker We do focus on the worst stuff.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@GeorgeStocker I know I changed my username when I saw profiles with a certain fundraiser being erased

Shadow The Princess Wizard

Well, there are more than enough "SE did wrong" discussions still out there in the open. I think? Didn't check lately, but doubt they deleted them all, there are literally dozens.

rene

As long as there remain at least two camps we're going nowhere. You can't have one camp insist on deleting stuff because they feel offended and another insist on keeping it around. Unless those two camps at least give in a bit to allow the opponents POV it really doesn't matter what or how you moderate.

George Stocker

15:35

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica I put a blurb in my bio about it solely because people's profiles were being changed by Staff.

Journeyman Geek

and there's stuff that's pretty much "oooh, the dumpster fire is dying down, lets add fuel"

George Stocker

(No indication whether or not our community moderators were changing profiles too)

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker we were not

Tinkeringbell

Haven't touched fundraiser ones. Those are for staff as they encounter them

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It's the point I made earlier: Let's not make people agree with the people starting fires

Rubiksmoose

15:35

@GeorgeStocker sigh if you thought Robert's last post was "borderline" then we definitely have different concepts of where that border lies. That post was a hand grenade starting from its very first line.

George Stocker

@JourneymanGeek Is there an answer on meta.SE I can reference that reaffirms that stance by the community moderators?

Tinkeringbell

@GeorgeStocker The official one does well enough, it talks about staff

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker I don't think it says anywhere the moderation team was doing it

George Stocker

@Rubiksmoose It's a tempest in a teapot. Before deleting it it would have died out in a few days. Now it gains traction because it was deleted.

9

@Tinkeringbell Consider this a request that you edit it to indicate Community Moderators aren't deleting this from profiles.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker So here's the thing.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

15:37

@GeorgeStocker Robert is now a martyr, no doubt. But in the long run, I think it's worth it - what he posted was dangerous.

Journeyman Geek

We have enough to do without "I have nothing to do with those people"

Tinkeringbell

@GeorgeStocker Nah.

Journeyman Geek

So no, we won't be doing either.

George Stocker

All of this reinforces my central point: Right now the blaze is continuing because the optics are that the Community Moderators carry SE's water, and SE's reputation isn't in a good place.

3

Stevoisiak supports Monica

For those of us with 10k rep, where can we view the post?

George Stocker

15:38

So any action you take to quell dissent (right or wrong) will continue to cause people to say more.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker and folks choose to feed that, and a few folks have insisted we quit

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica which?

Hitodama

need more colors...

Magisch

@GeorgeStocker there's a name for that

George Stocker

because they're now not just protesting SE's actions, they're protesting all actions that are quieting them. They don't feel heard.

Journeyman Geek

15:38

@GeorgeStocker Let me state this in black and white.

Tinkeringbell

@GeorgeStocker And whose fault is that? I'm going with those usernames I never saw before all this fanning the flames.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

The deleted post from Robert being discussed right now

Journeyman Geek

I'm a MSE moderator. I've got a site to run, and I have an idea of how to do it.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell Is assigning blame really useful when the effect and cause is known?

Journeyman Geek

If I'm wrong, sure, but I need the freedom to make those mistakes without random folks telling me how to do it.

Magisch

15:39

a merely moral victory is kind of pyrrhic

Journeyman Geek

I wouldn't presume to have told you how to run SO in your day.

Tinkeringbell

Besides that, we are here after all to fix any communication that goes off the rails. That doesn't mean carrying SEs water, It does mean providing an environment where they can actually communicate again

Magisch

but people tell mods all the time how to run their sites. And on every site I've been on so far there's an expectation that mods listen and defend their actions when called

3

Rubiksmoose

@GeorgeStocker I think you underestimate the amount of damage that post would have done. And the amount of attention it has gotten post-deletion. Guaranteed that that post would have attracted the absolute worst of what this community had to offer. There was nothing in that question that was even pretending to encourage a productive discussion.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica waffles

Journeyman Geek

15:40

Don't forget, quite a bit of SE's party line now is "MSE is obsolete"

George Stocker

@JourneymanGeek This is feedback as a person who frequents this community. You can choose to hear it and say, "Maybe there's something there." Or not -- I certainly can't force you to listen. But it is a bit telling if you're at the point where you're no longer listening.

3

Magisch

I've personally done that over serial voting and haven't been banned or yelled at for it

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker I'm here almost every day. I've actually seen a lot of it

@ShadowThePrincessWizard ehhh. If something is deleted, I'd really rather not have it shared on the same site please

rene

@GeorgeStocker I don't think I can agree with that sentiment

Journeyman Geek

One of the things that frustrates me is folks trying to share things they should not

@GeorgeStocker I'm hearing you and I strongly disagree with the notion.

I disagreed when Robert suggested it too.

Tinkeringbell

15:42

@GeorgeStocker Heh, you're setting it up as 'either you listen and do something with it that I like' or 'youre not listening at all'. At that point, there's nothing left to talk about.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@JourneymanGeek it's visible in zillion places, but meh.... @Stevo got what he wanted.

Journeyman Geek

I'd rather have nothing to do than direct lost users elsewhere and nuke the occational spammer

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@JourneymanGeek I'd asked for a link for 10k rep users specifically for that reason

Since 10k rep users can view deleted questions

@ShadowThePrincessWizard Thanks

Shadow The Princess Wizard

The link is to Google Drive document, not the meta post.

George Stocker

I've said what I came here to say. Thanks for taking the time to engage.

Journeyman Geek

15:43

@ShadowThePrincessWizard same content no?

You've seen how... creative... people get trying to get around content that was removed, even redacted.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@ShadowThePrincessWizard To be safe in the future, I'd either send those links outside the platform, (discord, twitter), or link the post itself for 10k users

Journeyman Geek

Yes please

Shadow The Princess Wizard

The "new CoC" is bad IMO, very bad, but by saying to people "don't dare to even share it" you just make it stronger. So I disagree with that censorship.

Rubiksmoose

I think many people underestimate how the moderation team has actually helped keep the community from destroying itself even further through actions like this and I think they were right to do so.

2

Journeyman Geek

I can't complain over what I don't see ;)

@ShadowThePrincessWizard Remeber the leak?

We had 6 different attempts to reshare it

Shadow The Princess Wizard

15:45

@JourneymanGeek that's very different.

It was illegal in the first place.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowThePrincessWizard its still something folks felt strongly enough to flag, delete, and other stuff

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Journeyman isn't saying "Don't share it", he's saying "Don't share it on the platform that has the power to close chat entirely"

Journeyman Geek

Or "Please don't create a situation where someone else can do it. When I can ask you nicely not to"

Cause I REALLY would rather ask folks nicely

terdon - stop harming Monica

I think it comes down to a fundamental disconnect. The MSE mods care about MSE as a community. For many users, MSE is not (and should never have been) a community, it is just the place where the larger, network-wide community can come and discuss issues that affect the network.

3

So, the MSE mods want to save their site, which is understandable, but from the perspective of the other side, who don't see MSE as a "site" like any other but as a tool for a job, the efforts of the MSE mods to keep things running appear counter productive.

6

So, for those of us who only care about MSE as a place where we can discuss network-wide issues, having things deleted because they're continuing the dumpster fire feels very wrong: we don't want the fire to go away, we want the reasons for the fire to go away.

6

Mithical

...and for those of us who do consider MSE a community and have been here regularly since long before things started to burn, that can be annoying.

Journeyman Geek

15:49

@terdon-stopharmingMonica And yet, we're on that spot, trying to shore up a site that's basically in trouble from all sides. And MSE is also practically the support site for the network until they eventually get the new thing up

and people forget that purpose

terdon - stop harming Monica

This all means that there is a core MSE userbase who just want their site back because this is the site they enjoy and it isn't working any more and then there are the rest of us across the network who see this attempted return to normalcy as basically giving up and letting SE win.

@Mithical Yes, that's my point.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It's scary how many parallels there are to when Reddit protested the firing of Victoria.

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek Well, if the core users have decided that certain subjects can no longer be discussed, I would argue MSE is no longer fit for purpose.

3

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica and... I see letting the fires burning lets folks who don't want meta to thrive win

Stevoisiak supports Monica

You have several semi-independent communities gathered under one larger commercial entity

Chris says Reinstate Monica

15:51

@JourneymanGeek True, but being the "support site for the network" means having to deal with the problems plagueing the network.

3

Journeyman Geek

@ChrissaysReinstateMonica not just the dumpster fires

normal stuff

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

One thing that gets overlooked in these debates is the feeling for new users on meta.

Chris says Reinstate Monica

too, yes.

terdon - stop harming Monica

In fact, that's been one of my main issues with MSE since the very beginning: the regulars kept closing discussion posts as dupes of 10-year-old discussions as though we can't have a new one.

2

Journeyman Geek

yanno, the stuff that they apparently want to ignore?

Stevoisiak supports Monica

15:51

It's like I've gone back in time 4 years

Tinkeringbell

@ChrissaysReinstateMonica That's why questions without an actual problem are deleted.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@terdon-stopharmingMonica I'll admit: I used to be complicit in this, but ceased doing so later on.

Tinkeringbell

And there's been quite a few of those lately

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek I get that. I'm not saying you're wrong and they're right. I'm only pointing out that there are two very different groups of people here with opposing goals.

Journeyman Geek

and that the constant drama means we may lose staff who might be on "our" side, or scare off new users.

terdon - stop harming Monica

15:52

And like it or not, when you take up one position, that puts you in opposition to the others.

5

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica In which case, its a VERY nice hill

So I don't get how letting the fires burn meets my goals.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@terdon-stopharmingMonica That's exactly right. As an example, I was going to post an answer based on my reading of the license why I believed the license changeover to 4.0 was probably legal, but refrained from doing so because I feared the blowback.

terdon - stop harming Monica

What makes this worse is that it isn't at all clear whose voice the mods are representing. I think it's essentially the voice of those users who love MSE as a site and community and want to get that back. From the outside, that will look like the mods are just toeing the company line since the short term objectives are the same: calm.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

I think closing a post is seen a lot differently than deleting a post

terdon - stop harming Monica

But all of the upset users will therefore feel even less heard because now even the mods who aren't on the company's "side" are taking action in a way that makes it appear as though they are.

Journeyman Geek

15:54

@terdon-stopharmingMonica I hardly think the company has been feeding calm

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek No, that's a fair point.

But they do seem to want all of this to magically go away.

Journeyman Geek

I've been trying to keep things calm since the problems started

I'm in the same place

terdon - stop harming Monica

I know you have. And I know how hard it's been for you and the others.

Tinkeringbell

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica Sure is. But if we can't trust the closing to stick, and discussion moves to comments instead....

terdon - stop harming Monica

I sure as hell don't claim that I would be able to do it better.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

15:55

@Tinkeringbell True, but that's a problem with the platform

terdon - stop harming Monica

I just honestly don't believe that a calm MSE is a goal we should be striving for right now. All that would achieve is a calm MSE but nothing else: none of the fundamental issues addressed.

2

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica the end result would be no MSE

or one that's broken when all this is done.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

From a user's perspective, they've just had the conversation scrubbed from existence

With no evidence it ever existed, or was even closed

Andy

@JourneymanGeek That already seems to be the end goal here. SE is actively disengaging from meta.

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek Yes. But, quite frankly, an emasculated MSE that cannot discuss the hard issues seems pointless to me.

Journeyman Geek

15:57

@terdon-stopharmingMonica there's less discussion than angry shouting tho

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It triggers a self-defense mechanism, like the opinion needs to fight to survive

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek Perhaps.

Journeyman Geek

I'm generally ok with hard issues. There's some stuff I'd rather not touch

but there's also some things we do need to handle before it gets worse, or things we try to let run their course and don't cause folks keep poking at them

Stevoisiak supports Monica

That's the issue: Deleting is inherently touching something

terdon - stop harming Monica

I know you are. But you (all of you three) are exhausted and emotionally drained. You cannot be expected to moderate this sort of mess and you're trying your best to do what you can.

Journeyman Geek

15:58

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica sometimes necessary things are things you don't need to do

@terdon-stopharmingMonica but giving up was worse.

terdon - stop harming Monica

I'm just afraid that the objective you have, that of saving MSE, is not worth it if MSE is going to end up so spineless as to not allow discussion.

11

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica We allow a fair amount of discussion - but consider that folks never notice when you don't do anything

Chris says Reinstate Monica

@terdon-stopharmingMonica I don't see a way how a tumultous MSE is going to achieve any adressing of those issues either, though.

Journeyman Geek

And to an extent, folks are trying to pressure us into inaction.

terdon - stop harming Monica

We already know MSE is not useful for i) giving feedback to the company or ii) asking for new features or iii) as a way for the company to communicate with us. The only point in MSE then that I can think of is for a place where we, the community, can discuss ideas about the network. But forget the company and staff involvement.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

16:00

My advice is just to be careful with deletion. Closing discussion is a much more neutral stance than deletion

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica that's the company's fault

But people change, not always the ones we wish would, priorities shift, projects fail

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek I know you do. And I know exactly what it means that the vast majority of work you do isn't even seen, let alone appreciated. I've been a mod for a while too ;)

@JourneymanGeek Of course it is.

But just, seriously, what is MSE for? What is it that makes it worth preserving for you?

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Apologies if that's seen as me giving advice for a difficult job I haven't had to manage at that scale

Tinkeringbell

@terdon-stopharmingMonica A calm MSE would give air, room to perhaps address some of the broken trust. A dumpster fire certainly doesn't

terdon - stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell With whom? With the company?

Journeyman Geek

16:02

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Its represented the best of SE for ages. Its a repository of all the things we learnt about SE.

Tinkeringbell

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Yes. Remember that 'we don't hold grudges'?

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek The best of SE? OK, we have very different experiences with MSE.

Journeyman Geek

Same reason I think smaller sites are important. Its the heart of the network.

@terdon-stopharmingMonica we do ;p

and very different views of many aspects of it

terdon - stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell It's not about grudges. We don't hold grudges means that if you change your behavior, you're welcome back. Not that we will just let you behave however you like.

Tinkeringbell

Discussion of hard things won't be banned. But we need an environment first where hard things can be discussed constructively

3

terdon - stop harming Monica

16:03

But seriously, is your objective to somehow go back in time and make MSE a place where we can communicate with the company again?

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Hold things together long enough.

terdon - stop harming Monica

Bearing in mind what we now know about the company and how little they care about the actual network and how few employees even know the term "SE"?

3

Tinkeringbell

I've seen a lot of people talk about going back to X... That rules out going forward

Andy

@Tinkeringbell Deleting everything is not the way to get that though. That raises new complaints and the cycle repeats.

terdon - stop harming Monica

I am honestly trying to understand what you folks see as the end objective here.

Tinkeringbell

16:04

@Andy how many new posts were posted today that weren't deleted?

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica What's the end objective of letting MSE burn?

Tinkeringbell

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Having a place where hard discussions have a place.

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek That isn't what I'm asking.

@Tinkeringbell Discussions between whom?

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica well its a collirary.

What's the end goal?

Andy

@Tinkeringbell Oddly enough, I don't know. I do know that we are talking about ones that were deleted over the weekend though, which probably isn't your goal. So, we are talking about actions here because we can't talk about them on MSE.

Journeyman Geek

16:06

For me, I figure a lot of these things fill fail. They have before. Hopefully the damage won't be as bad as the last time

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek But irrelevant. My reason for letting MSE burn, if I were to do so, is that I simply don't care anymore, not that I want it to burn. You clearly care, and good for you, so presumably you have a positive, constructive objective. Tink said it's to have a place for the hard discussions.

Journeyman Geek

stuff will find a level

@terdon-stopharmingMonica if you didn't care, why bother why I do it?

terdon - stop harming Monica

That seems laudable, I am tryng to understand what that would look like to you. Who would be having these discussions?

@JourneymanGeek Hmm?

Andy

And what will those discussions be?

Why aren't we having them now?

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica I'm going to pop over to the TL for a bit for part of this

Mithical

16:07

:(

Andy

Why? Why is the discussion being moved to TL? The community is sitting here, asking you questions. Don't go hide over there.

terdon - stop harming Monica

Um. For my part, this isn't about putting JMG or Tink or Chris on the spot. I am just trying to understand the perspective of those of you who consider MSE a place worth saving and why.

Tinkeringbell

@Andy Okay. So one was reposting r/a deleted content, the other was r/a content... Which one should've stayed?

Journeyman Geek

@Andy more or less - we're focused on a few trouble spots. We're not going to go all "NO DISAGREEMENT!"

Mithical

Bringing MSE back to a manageable state allows MSE not to be dismissed immediately in the company's eyes as a bunch of screaming rabble. If we can prove that as a community - in this case, the community of engaged users - we can provide structured, productive feedback without everything devolving, then maybe we'll have a chance of having a say in things.

As long as the company gets the impression that we're a bunch of bitter angry people who don't actually want to discuss things, and just want to yell... we have no say in things.

Tinkeringbell

16:10

@terdon-stopharmingMonica SE, users... Sorry for the late reply, my fingers got too cold.

user400654

As long as things are getting deleted on a whim without any reasoning or oversight... i don't expect we'll ever get there.

Journeyman Geek

@user400654 "on a whim" is unfair

terdon - stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell So the general idea is to keep things calm by brushing some things under the table for enough time for things to calm down and be able to have constructive discussions again?

John Dvorak

It does appear to be on a whim, though, even if it isn't

Tinkeringbell

@user400654 Actually, we do explain to users in comments if necessary. But we should also be wary not to just build smarter pyromaniacs.

user400654

16:10

Maybe it is, but with all this in the shadows we can't know that.

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica so pretty much a few things

- The rules haven't changed.

Tinkeringbell

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Eh, no. If I was sweeping stuff under the rug, there's be a lot more deleted stuff

Journeyman Geek

Heck, I still work under "Be Nice" for most part

terdon - stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell Sorry, I shouldn't have used that phrase. I didn't want those implications. I mean just closing/deleting things you consider non-constructive.

Journeyman Geek

there's just a lot more of it now

folks are angry, but moderation is moderation, good times or bad

Tinkeringbell

16:14

@terdon-stopharmingMonica We're.. barely knocking off the edges now. But for a bit of perspective: I was glad it was Glorfindel that asked the question about 'a great year'. That question is written as neutrally as a deity could wish for... And it still started unrelated trash fires to the point of needing a lock.

terdon - stop harming Monica

Yes, but it is true that some things seem to be deleted today that wouldn't have been yesteryear.

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica no one would have noticed yesteryear

terdon - stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell Sigh. Yeah, I'm sure it did :(

Also true.

Tinkeringbell

Now... Is it really natural to feel some wash of relief when it's not another question just dragging in unrelated discussion and deleted r/a stuff?

Journeyman Geek

no one would have brought it back up, or we have to deal with multiple posts asking why

or asking about a deleted post, then turning it into comments about unrelated suspensions

But that's literally what we have to work with

terdon - stop harming Monica

16:16

@Tinkeringbell Of course it is. But I suspect that y'all might be getting a bit overwhelmed (I certainly would, in your shoes) since you live and breathe MSE. So you've seen this play out a hundred times by now. Most of us don't watch MSE quite so faithfully, so aren't as burned out, and therefore have a higher threshold for rehashing some drama.

Journeyman Geek

So sure. It looks bad. People might want it to look bad.

terdon - stop harming Monica

Which brings me back to what I fear might be a disconnect between the mod team and a large part of the user base.

Tinkeringbell

I mean, back in April people got a bit mad with the joke theme. There were angry posts, but I deleted the stuff that wasn't answering the actual questions, redirecting some to more appropriate threads... And no one really batted an eye. If we do so now, there's three levels of meta 'why was the post about this deleted post deleted'....

Journeyman Geek

^ that literally happened.

terdon - stop harming Monica

Yes. That is absolutely true and it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

John Dvorak

16:17

I suspect unexpected suspensions are the bigger worry than deleted content

2

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak suspensions are rarely unexpected

At best "I can get away with this in comments"

Chris says Reinstate Monica

@Tinkeringbell Frankly, I found that entirely opinion-based and useless, too. (Though, I did upvote it and all its answers before close-voting.)

John Dvorak

To those watching them from the sidelines, they always are, and we've just got several in a single day

Tinkeringbell

@terdon-stopharmingMonica First off, I'm not burned out. Please don't talk like that, burn outs are serious mental issues and I do take care to step back and not get myself to the point where I need a psychiatrist.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak And yet, someone deemed them necessary

Tinkeringbell

16:19

I don't really like it as a replacement for tired/worn out.

But I take breaks. And they're clean breaks:no chat, no flags... They do help.

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica ^ I do that too, though we co-ordinate :D

terdon - stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell Oh wow, that isn't how I meant it at all! It doesn't need to be that strong.

Journeyman Geek

also since its a small team we do bounce stuff off each other as needed

terdon - stop harming Monica

Hell, I'm burnt out. That doesn't mean it's something that will affect my life outside SE.

Tinkeringbell

And we even have CMs help out :) Catija is very helpful too if we need help :)

Journeyman Geek

16:21

@terdon-stopharmingMonica My job sucks, my matchmaking is at a standstill, and my second site is on fire.

Yet I persist. ;p

Aaron Hall

Is there a way to show SVG files as images in answers? The PNG I just posted is kinda grainy...

Hitodama

@Tinkeringbell The "joke"... I suppose that is the one that kept multiple users - including at least one mod - off the site for more than a day? Ye know that that thing was a real pain trigger for some users, right?

Tinkeringbell

Heh. My life is mostly roses and sunshine... Except for the occasional fight at home about wardrobe choices....

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek That's just it though. Is it your second site that's on fire or is it the network?

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica unless SE hires me as a CM, the network is not my problem

@AaronHall meta.stackexchange.com/questions/92568/allow-svg-image-uploads

terdon - stop harming Monica

16:22

Is this really a fire that should be put out? Or can having the fire raging actually still result in something useful? I just feel that a burning MSE is the only thing that could still put some pressure on the company.

Journeyman Geek

offsite hosting I'm afraid

@terdon-stopharmingMonica would it?

Tinkeringbell

@Hitodama I know. But we had a question about how to turn it off across all sites... And it was getting all that feedback and more about how bad it was. Someone posted a real question about accessibility issues after an answer I deleted... That was much better.

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek Ah, but that's just it. What is MSE if not the network? And if it isn't the network then what's the point in it?

Journeyman Geek

Cause I don't particularly feel like the company would mind MSE burning out

terdon - stop harming Monica

@JourneymanGeek Quite possibly not. But perhaps yes. I don't really know.

Tinkeringbell

16:23

And the post got an official answer eventually too. Don't know but I like to think that having it cleaned up helped a little

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Well - its not my job.

At best, I can influence a few folks

terdon - stop harming Monica

OK, but seriously, if MSE isn't just a manifestation of the broader network then what is it?

Journeyman Geek

but most of the network dosen't seem as affected outside Monica's own sites

terdon - stop harming Monica

And why does it exist if not to be a voice of the network?

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Yanno what burns people out?

Trying to fix too many things at once.

This is one small site

Aaron Hall

16:25

@JourneymanGeek so I could upload it to wikimedia first and let them host it? Hm... would they like to have a UML diagram of Python's collections.abc abstract base classes?

Journeyman Geek

@AaronHall or anywhere else reliable. For the latter I don't know

Hitodama

@Tinkeringbell I renew my invite from back then, if you like I can dig out the old discussion we had on RPG about that idea.

Journeyman Geek

Or on the flipside. I am here, dealing with MSE's issues to the best of my abilities.

I don't have the spoons for feature creep

Tinkeringbell

@Hitodama it's okay.

I'm on mobile, on a train... Have enough trouble keeping up with one convo

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica well not just a voice that shouts. Also a voice that teaches

It's still a collective memory of the network

terdon - stop harming Monica

16:31

It is. Although, sadly, that memory is becoming more and more obsolete.

JonasCz - Reinstate Monica

@AaronHall Should be fine; just give it some useful information (title, description...) when you upload it to wikimedia commons, so that other people can find / reuse it.

Journeyman Geek

@terdon-stopharmingMonica and still useful if maintained. And chaos scares away the gardeners

Magisch

blue city in here :D

terdon - stop harming Monica

blue city?

Ah, tink and JMG!

Tinkeringbell

We talk too much sometimes ;)

terdon - stop harming Monica

16:47

Yeah, not like little old silent me! :P

Hitodama

Have to go for now

Later

Tinkeringbell

See ya soon!

PM 2Ring

@AaronHall You can put SVGs on Github. Eg, gist.github.com/PM2Ring/fbe0ea1cb434602ca3a90060e4c55493 If you're on a mobile device, enable full site mode to preview my (animated) SVG.

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