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Rob
6:29 PM
Wikitrout / Wikiwhale - The learning never stops.
 
mag
it is the origin of the phrase "whacking someone with a wet trout"
also consider the {{multitrout}}
in our analogy that is temporarily timing out the room :)
 
@Yet FTR, we've discussed the "state of the site" over and over and over (much to my dismay sometimes, even) Like, the vending machine sucks.
Can everyone agree on that?
 
It doesn't even have any proper drinks
 
All I keep getting is M&M's.
I love one M but two is too much.
 
!!/tea
 
6:35 PM
@user58 brews a cup of mint tea for @user58
 
mag
mint tea!
 
*hands it to @mag*
 
mag
yaay!
 
...pff, ninja'd
I was giving it to you before you said anything :P
 
So, how should the plural be spelled? "M&Ms"? "M&Ms"?
@user58 Oh it's one of those awkward moments when you push it through and spill the tea on @Mag's new coat.
Meh, I like more brown on that coat anyway.
 
6:36 PM
cacti don't wear coats
 
Says you
 
mag
its true
only tshirts
 
user245382
May I just say, I find the "we've already discussed this to death" thing to be... off-putting. Some people haven't. Some people are new to the discussion and this is the first time they get to speak their mind after they've been told to "take it to chat" on meta.
 
mag
discussions about the topic aren't banned or disallowed
 
@mag You may not call it a coat but everyone knows it's a coat, ugh eye roll
 
mag
6:37 PM
coming in and kicking it off with an insult is
 
user245382
Of course. It's just that this isn't the first time I've heard that
 
@House-'ReinstateMonica'-man Wait, no, I didn't mean it like that.
 
mag
sure, but there's also not been a day since end of september where this room hasn't had multiple of these discussions
so at some point, in some vein, sometimes it's enough or not in the mood. There'll be ample opportunity to talk about it again in short order
 
I meant to address the censorship accusations.
Saying these observations are banned in this room can't be further from the truth.
 
mag
I'd wager 50-60% of the transcript from late september on is this exact discussion
 
6:40 PM
Your first message in a room looking to stir up drama (and it doesn't need to mean to) is a bit of showstopper
If I entered The Nineteenth Byte and went all "I don't meant to insult anyone folks, but is there a reasonable way to code golf?", with no context, it's probably going to ruffle up feathers even if I just intended to understand the whole thing innocuously
 
I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but is there a less meta way to meta?
 
Just my two rials.
@ArtOfCode WHY YOU
And I meant it. WHY YOU
 
user245382
That analogy is lost on me. But I just find it off-putting to even discourage a topic. That's all
 
iow: evenin' all
 
@M.A.R. BECAUSE WE
 
6:43 PM
Don't make me break out my smiting stick people! You wouldn't like it ...
 
@House-'ReinstateMonica'-man sorry, tried my best. Not the most fresh version of me to be able to come up with reasonable analogies
 
my smiting stick is bigger than yours
 
I should be like Shog and liken things to natural things and stuff.
 
user245382
Like something in Colorado
 
Yeah, this whole thing, drama number 498 in the past month in the Tavern, can be likened to . . . trees.
 
6:44 PM
@House-'ReinstateMonica'-man At some point, there comes a time when there is nothing to be gained by continuing to discuss a topic. Everyone in the room is sick of the topic, and frankly, there's no need for everyone say something. We don't need thousands of people all giving their two cents here. At some point, a topic has to take a break.
 
Oh thank you showstopper
If the topic is brought up again, I won't discourage it but just not participate in it unless it's something that hasn't already been said and it doesn't smell like the discussion will end in messages being trashed (rightfully)
 
@user58 I guess that's just like ... your 2 cents? :p
 
five thousand people all offering their two cents would buy me enough food to keep me occupied away from this discussion for... a long time
 
THE discussion
 
user245382
"everyone in the room is sick of the topic" doesn't include the person who has just come in for the first time and wants to talk about it.
 
6:46 PM
@Bart it's worth at least a dime
 
@House-'ReinstateMonica'-man sure, but at some point, the majority tiredness kinda outweighs the individual want to talk.
 
If you find that nobody in the tavern is willing to entertain that discussion, it might not be the tavern for you then.
 
@House-'ReinstateMonica'-man Alright, well, let's just say I'd be really skeptical if someone new came in and started a discussion like that EVEN if I agree with them.
 
user245382
I like MAR's solution of just not discouraging or participating
 
if someone makes a reasonable request that we not discuss a topic, it's rude not to at least entertain the idea
 
6:48 PM
Seems easier to just not answer. I mean, if anyone doesn't want to be drawn in, just don't get involved. That way, those users, if any, who aren't exhausted and haven't had the same conversation N times can have their own N+1th conversation.
2
 
mag
Also, we've seen every concievable angle of this discussion go south really fast by now.
 
listening to everyone is kinda a core thing of keeping a community going, and sometimes that means not discussing a topic you want to out of respect for others who don't want to
 
mag
It tends to go south quickly when someone comes in like that
 
This is supposed to be the main room for meta, so isn't it the best place for the discussion? No matter how often it's been had by different groups?
 
This is diving into hypotheticals now, but I'm assuring you no one is crazier than we were. I think we're all missing context now.
The second best thing to a drama ā€” Meta drama
Seems apt
 
6:49 PM
@terdon Not necessarily. It's the main room for meta, so it has to keep some semblance of sanity. Too much drama will end up in a barfight.
...Tavernfight.
 
Breaks paper mache environment-friendly beer cranberry juice bottle on 58
That's an achievement.
 
psa: i'm banning all alcoholic drinks from the tavern, it's becoming an under-18 friendly tavern
 
@user58 Of course. So the discussions need to be civil and I quite understand why you reacted the way you did to someone coming in swinging.
But blocking the discussion seems wrong.
Not everyone has had as many or as in depth discussions over the issue as you or I.
 
Scratches newly growing beard I dunno
I'm rewatching Breaking Bad.
Should I change my avatar to that Breaking Bad illustration?
 
Breaking M.A.R.?
 
mag
6:54 PM
the entire discussion isn't blocked
I guarantee you tomorrow will have at least 3 full of such discussions
 
Only if I'm around
Which I will be
 
10 mins ago, by user58
@House-'ReinstateMonica'-man At some point, there comes a time when there is nothing to be gained by continuing to discuss a topic. Everyone in the room is sick of the topic, and frankly, there's no need for everyone say something. We don't need thousands of people all giving their two cents here. At some point, a topic has to take a break.
 
These were a bunch of religious holidays here, but I was busy like a
Like a busy guy
 
mag
that isn't a permanent mandate I don't think
 
@user58's position is absolutely understandable. But this being the room it is, I just think that if someone wants to discuss the #1 topic on meta, then that should happen. If nobody else wants to, they can just ignore whoever is trying to start the conversation.
 
6:57 PM
@terdon come in with simple curiosity, a request for an update on the situation or whatever, and this room generally will entertain your discussion, as happened a couple of times over the last few days.
 
mag
I do feel we have a responsibility to limit how much we "own" the room, though
 
@Bart Oh sure, I'm not defending the way the aborted attempt was phrased.
I just don't want there to be a situation where just because the regulars are all talked out, the main and most active room is no longer allowing the discussion.
 
@mag that comes naturally really. The people owning the room now are not the ones 2 years ago, let alone 5 or more ...
 
mag
not even really owning
this is MSE's room, not mine
 
@terdon I have yet to see that happen really. Usually over all these years I come in and think "are we really still discussing that?"
 
7:00 PM
I do not want to allow this room to simply reiterate the same topic over and over again for weeks at a time. That will kill the room and only make the room turn toxic (similar to what I describe in my latest MSE answer). To preserve the health of the room, I strongly feel that there comes a time where there needs to be period of time without beating the same dead horse.
 
@mag still, I expect you to clean it up. It's a mess in here. Not my room ... the nerve ...
 
That's my personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the RO team as a whole.
 
mag
@Bart I can start with a pair of glasses just laying around
 
^ abusive flags pls ... for shame.
 
user245382
Is this an "official" room, or a user-made room that just gained traction until it was recognized as the unofficial official room?
 
mag
7:02 PM
afaik this is the official MSE room
 
there are no official rooms
this is all community moderated
 
mag
official as in every site has one that will never freeze
 
there are frozen main rooms ....
not going there now ...
 
user245382
so the community makes the rules here? Theoretically, 58's suggestion could be implemented if all the other ROs were convinced?
 
mag
I don't think we ever hold official votes on policy
 
7:06 PM
Kind of, I don't need much convincing
 
@user58 I can understand that desire, but as long as the topic remains unresolved, I don't see how you (general you) could reasonably block discussing it here.
4
 
@House-'ReinstateMonica'-man kinda, sorta, within bounds. As much as any group of people make "rules" about what they'll discuss or not.
 
if it sounds like a bad idea I'm all in
 
user245382
And then I guess if that rule is made and people don't like it, they can make their own room, and call it Monicagate or Pronoungate
 
mag
nothing is stopping you from doing that, yea
do note it's still subject to the chat server rules and if it gets too out of hand someone might close it
 
7:09 PM
I see there is a Top Secret room
 
Well ... there goes our top secret room ... THANKS
 
always helpful, you can count on me
 
Rob
Call it: Earned 200 reputation per day this week, that will attract a large following.
 
user245382
I'm not ready, it's too much pressure
 
@rene the Den? ah, yeah, the Den.
 
7:15 PM
@MetaAndrewT. it is WAG
 
7:28 PM
@MetaAndrewT. he's probably referring to the Stack Exchange "ask-@rene-anything" Data Explorer room
Shivers Please, last thing I need is legislation in the Tavern
Goes on to bring up a whole discussion on copyright infringement
 
are example questions on the Tour page supposed to be up to modern standards and not be closed for whatever reason?
 
depends on who you ask
 
Alright, is it just me, or is the Welcome Wagon's push for new user inclusivity, and the following more vocal voices on meta defending new user "rights", has ended up with way more outright insults directed at the veteran users than ever before? I don't mean criticism, I mean insults.
 
let me rephrase: if I found that a question that is featured on the Tour page was subsequently closed, is that a problem?
 
@user1306322 +230/-26 says "close, it doesn't matter."
Predicting meta.SO reaction.
 
7:35 PM
eh, no, i don't think so. @M.A.R.
 
haha
 
@KevinB I agree with it, it's not enough reason to make an exception
 
do you by any chance know which one I have in mind? :)
 
pretty sure a lot of these posts complaining about downvotes would still be happening with or without the welcoming push
 
Or a histolock
 
7:36 PM
was there a meta q about this (potential) issue I can read up on?
 
@user1306322 I actually thought of Tour questions on other sites, but SO's stance should be even more firm on this
 
@user1306322 the problem is... What the community deems as low quality/off topic doesn't always align with the company's opinion on the matter
 
who edits the Tour page? isn't it the site's moderators?
 
@KevinB Don't get me wrong. They were always there. They will always come. But outright insulting the curators has been tolerated more, my opinion.
Recently.
Maybe it's just a side effect of other issues getting the momentary attention
I probably can't pinpoint what "recently" exactly constitutes
 
or even the moderator's opinion on the matter
especially recently
I'd like to be able to attribute it to the welcoming push... but... i don't feel like i objectively can.
I find the whole initiative a waste of time, unlikely to move the needle at all. Nothing more than a PR stunt
 
7:39 PM
I'm not attributing the hostility to WW, I'm attributing the vocalness to WW. (And it's not a bad thing on most fronts)
 
@user1306322 yes, mods, but sometimes they don't have choice because there's a criteria to fulfill
 
Whoops
 
hmm maybe it's time to replace it
 
But this vocalness seems to have implied that more people have thrown synonyms of "elitist arsehole" at a general direction and get away with it.
 
surely there have been better ones that fit that criteria
 
7:41 PM
@user1306322 things like this that don't change are usually a carved-in-stone thing. You need a good reason, and whether on-topicness is one is debatable
 
hmm
well, it's not a good question for the topic for one, it would be better suited for a more general computer user site, like SuperUser
but even then it would probably be closed as too broad
 
Should be a good starting point for one such discussion
I'd be phrasing it as neutral as I can, despite whichever side I'm on
 
the question basically asks "what approach do I pick" and has programming language tags but no code, and answers propose "use a webcam" or "check for mouse movements"
the real question is closed actually
 
Whoa, OK, that's bad
The only reason not to change it would be "meh"
 
i wonder who submitted that one as a good one
 
7:44 PM
Which can be a strong reason
 
:shrug:
 
@KevinB IT WAS YOU
 
IMO it should be a fake question. I hate anything that draws attention to individual questions
 
I think the reason may be the SO sites on other languages have been less strict on scope at the beginning but tightened the rules later on?
 
like the overflow most recently, or any other blog post that brought up a single question
 
7:45 PM
now I wanna update the tour page a bit and see what other examples are in that pool
btw is there an ajax page I can see for all the example questions for the tour page?
or is it just on meta somewhere
 
The "informed" badge
Soooo outdated yo
 
@user1306322 no, only the SEDE query on that answer
 
answer? (or did you mean "as an answer to my question")
I googled the question title and found it on the site proper
 
Meta.SO down, anyone?
 
nope
 
7:49 PM
@M.A.R. no, but my mobile hotspot was down...
 
online here
 
@user1306322 you mean the SEDE query?
 
Googles "is internet working"
 
@M.A.R. But what if Google is down šŸ˜±
 
that isn't possible
 
7:52 PM
Bings "is Google down"
I always get "yes"... šŸ¤”
 
I remember when Google went down for an hour... and it ended up taking down "downdetector" from all the traffic
 
@Stevoisiak how did people find it then?
 
@user1306322 shrugs Bing?
 
Looked under the bed
 
7:58 PM
@M.A.R. click the 'feedback' below it and tell them they're wrong...
 
@Stevoisiak Yeah, same diff
 
(removed)
 
(pĒŹŒoÉÆĒÉ¹)
was the experiment about changing from 5 to 3 close votes done on other language SO sites simultaneously with main SO?
 
8:15 PM
507
Q: Experiment (ENDED): closing and reopening happens at 3 votes for the next 30 days

Shog9 This experiment has concluded and the affected settings have been restored to their previous values. Results are available here. -- Shog9, 2019-09-07 For the next 30 days, we'll be running an experiment on Stack Overflow: the threshold for closing or reopening a question will be set a...

 
no mention of other language sites there, and it's posted on MSO so assume no
I wonder if other language SO sites would have been interested in the same experiment
 
Unlikely. The problem with SO is that it's larger than the entire rest of the network combined.
 
is additional oversight of 2 extra pairs of eyes that warranted?
 
if it can happen without hindering the process, sure, why not
Closing sooner speeds up closure and makes voting to close feel more impactful. It also potentially increases the number of posts wrongfully closed, though i'd argue that's less of an issue.
 
@KevinB The proposal also makes reopening questions easier, so wrongfully closed questions are less of a problem than they'd be
 
8:31 PM
@KevinB I'd argue it'd make wrongful closures more visible, not necessary quantitatively more (if people adapt to it)
The number of "accidental" closures because of fast pace should be low, unless something else becomes at play
For that, we have to consider what psychological effects come at play when folks arrive at a -4 question when voting to close, vs. arriving at -1 or +1.
 
do users normally contact other reviewers if they see enough bogus review actions?
I remember noticing some users who never used chat approve weird edits that should not have been approved, and couldn't call them into chat to ask what that was all about
(back several years ago)
 
@user1306322 AFAIK, no, they custom flag a mod instead
 
It could help the thinkgroup type of closure happen less (as would fewer votes to close), but it could also mean the line gets fuzzier and people wouldn't put enough thought into considering every question for too long
 
idk if it's "appropriate amount of force" to do a mod-message tho
 
That is, the signal sent by the downvotes or other type of votes wouldn't be there as much
 
8:35 PM
maybe it is
after all, you can't vote on a user's reviewing decisions
 
@user1306322 More often than not it's someone you don't know and I don't think people take such risks SO-scale. Maybe SE-site scale yes, because there a few well-known members handle the curation at a time
 
in my SE-site experience, every time I managed to mention someone into chat, they joined and we had a talk about it and it was all cool
 
So if I'm one of the few moderating faces on an SE site, I expect my message to be taken as such and anyone that sticks around would know it
 
I don't think I ever attempted the same on SO...
 
@user1306322 Eh, I wasn't that successful
People aren't that receptive, in my unfortunate opinion
 
8:39 PM
it's a worthwhile effort, even if it doesn't work, it's easy to edit posts again into shape
 
I poked someone a dozen times at least to stop making crappy edits a while back. I tried reject+edit, comment, chat ping (the one time they joined), probably a bunch of other things
They just got tired of the damage they made and moved on.
@user1306322 Well, sure, you see, I'm chill about it. I'm not angry. I"M NOT ANGRY
(惎ą² ē›Šą² )ćƒŽå½”ā”»ā”ā”»
 
ā”¬ā”€ā”¬ļ»æ ļøµ /(.ā–”. \ļ¼‰
's all about perspective :)
(also I stopped reviewing on SO pretty early on, so maybe I'm not damaged enough because of that)
 
I discovered the other day that Windows has an auto-inserter for a bunch of those tableflip/lennyface/etc type things (ā˜žļ¾Ÿćƒ®ļ¾Ÿ)ā˜ž
 
oh really?
 
(ā•Æ°ā–”°ļ¼‰ā•Æļøµ ā”»ā”ā”»
 
8:45 PM
> "Windows"
 
(ā•Æ°ā–”°ļ¼‰ā•Æļøµ ā”»ā”ā”»
 
click in a text field, press Win+period
2
 
(works at least on Windows 10)
 
ho ho ho a world of new opportunities just opened
 
user245382
how terrible
 
8:46 PM
@user58 I'm not as horrified by it as I used to be... it's got a lot better, particularly for dev stuff
blame WSL
 
finally I no longer need to google this ( ā€¢_ā€¢)>āŒā– -ā–  for the once in a year opportunity to use it (āŒā– _ā– )
 
I haven't really tried Windows in several years so I can't say
 
7 was pretty, but kinda useless for developing stuff
10 was to start with, too
 
Mac OS also has Emoji shortcut tho
 
10 in its current iteration (18945) is nice
 
9:35 PM
@AdamLear It's next week; courtesy ping
 
@ArtOfCode hmmm after win+. what do you press to find those in particular?
 
@Rubiksmoose look through the menu
 
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog psst. "I'll try to remember" doesn't always mean "please ping me". Some people may find it helpful. Others may find it rude.
 
interestingly, I was looking for "flip table", and the dialog said it was not found... along with an flip table ascii. such troll. very amaze. much angery windoze
 
9:37 PM
@ArtOfCode All I see is emoji on mine.
 
@Rubiksmoose there's a few tabs, though
 
i'm still on 1803, might be a 1903 feature (the may update)
 
@ArtOfCode Yes, I'm aware, and if it had been any other employee I wouldn't have done it. Adam has been generally found such pings helpful.
 
@KevinB I'm almost certainly on an older update as well
 
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog cool
 
9:39 PM
yeah that's new
not in 1803
 
@ArtOfCode Ah yeah yours is different. Likely updated.
 
I still have Windows 8.1, so...
 
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog Thanks. I'll try to find some time to dig into that... but I can't promise much on that front.
 
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog that's a statement.
 
@Rubiksmoose I'm on 1903@18945
 
9:40 PM
1803 for me
 
i hated 8/8.1, actively avoided that version
 
Yes, ASCII emoticons are indeed supported in Windows 8.1, so they must be supported in 10 original release and later.
 
stuck with 7 till 10 came out
 
@KevinB I tried the Release Preview of Windows 8, and bought an original Surface the day it came out (which I still use from time to time)
 
10 has been great so far, with the exception of cortana and edge trying to take shtuff over every time i update
 
 
1 hour later…
11:07 PM
 
I just made a suggestion about the moderator reinstatement/removal process: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336177/… and would be open to feedback (and votes), but it has fallen off the front page, so it is likely no one will see it.
 
user310756
a new answer will kick it to the active question page
 
11:24 PM
@Nobody but not the active "home page" which is what I usually view. Not really sure of the difference.
 
user310756
me neither
 
11:45 PM
Windows 10 Pro or better isn't that bad.
 
Rob
(ā”›ā—‰Š”ā—‰)ā”›å½”ā”»ā”ā”» or (ā”›āį“„ā)ā”›å½”ā”»ā”ā”» or Ź•ćƒŽā€¢į“„ā€¢Ź”ćƒŽ ļøµ ā”»ā”ā”» or ā”¬ā”€ā”¬ćƒŽ( Ķ”° ĶœŹ– Ķ”°ćƒŽ)
Android has 32 table flips from crazy to bunny to teddy bear to flip it back.
 

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